View Full Version : rear speakers quiet


SRT4Erik
06-22-2007, 01:19 AM
Anyone else that has the base stereo have very low output on the rear speakers? I can't hear mine unless the fader is all the way to the rear, and even then they are super quiet, 80db or so at max vol.

I am going to remove the deck to see if there are any wiring problems, but short of that, I just wanted to see if it was normal. Might be a deck issue too. Hrmmm.

Thanks for any input. ;)

Safetyguy
06-22-2007, 02:13 AM
I noticed the same thing. There is a HUGE accoustical void/emptiness behind the front seats. I went to a stereo shop and they recommended replacement speakers with pivoting tweeters to address this. Let me know if you decide to do this. I am a bit surprised more people haven't complained about this. I noticed it right away during my test drive.

Safetyguy

city-soundzdotcom
06-22-2007, 02:28 AM
You know what would be funny, if the factory wired one rear speaker up backwards, this would cause a low volume because one speaker would literally be opposite of the other speaker and cancel eachother out. Crazy but true, maybe not tho. Need new speakers....Check it out!

City-Soundz.com

XBFred
06-22-2007, 03:33 AM
didn't notice, after I got it first thing I did was fade stereo almost all the way forward. I am not really into my sounds coming from behind me.

BigBHaller
06-22-2007, 04:29 AM
Anyone else that has the base stereo have very low output on the rear speakers? I can't hear mine unless the fader is all the way to the rear, and even then they are super quiet, 80db or so at max vol.

I am going to remove the deck to see if there are any wiring problems, but short of that, I just wanted to see if it was normal. Might be a deck issue too. Hrmmm.

Thanks for any input. ;)

Yes, I noticed exactly the same thing!

I ordered the AVIC-Z2 and will be installing it next week. If it continues to do the same thing, then I'll know it is the wiring. I'll keep you posted.

jackjon
06-23-2007, 08:21 AM
the factory rear speakers are smaller. they are 5.25 while the fronts are 6.5. you can mount 6.5's in the back, with an adapter bracket.

BigBHaller
06-24-2007, 10:05 PM
the factory rear speakers are smaller. they are 5.25 while the fronts are 6.5. you can mount 6.5's in the back, with an adapter bracket.

I don't think it's due to the size. There is such a disparity between the volume levels of the front and back that it seems like the rears have been attenuated. I played with MCGong's SNS and his was more closely matched, yet still not equal. Perhaps it's just the base radio...?

shorberg
06-24-2007, 10:42 PM
watching this topic


<---interested in knowing too

Bigfieroman
06-25-2007, 05:09 PM
Smartass said the rear speakers are 6.25? Anyone actually have confirmation on this (more than looking through the grill)?

Malibu_Rapper
06-25-2007, 05:32 PM
Smartass said the rear speakers are 6.25? Anyone actually have confirmation on this (more than looking through the grill)?

I confirmed with Smartass in that thread that the speakers is actually 5.25"

He said a 6.5" speaker will fit. It's very easy to see through the grill that it's a 5.25" speaker.

mikemann
06-25-2007, 09:44 PM
What I'm curious about is...is it worth it to replace the factory speakers if your not going to do a HU swap or amp install.

My brother has a silver xb2 and it has the base/stock radio. I think it sounds pretty decent stock. I am getting a white xb2 with the premium hu and I wouldn't mind doing a speaker upgrade, but honestly that's about it.

I know how I am and I can get crazy with the upgrades. ;-)

I was thinking about just getting something off crutchfield in what they consider high-end.

Think I'll see a difference, or total waste of time and money?

The other question I have is, has anyone also measured mounting depth as well. Do we have any issues there? I was looking at xbfred's thread on sound proofing the car and the one shot of his doors shows the speakers. They use a weird housing adapter to sort of bring the speakers out....

Carr73
06-26-2007, 12:37 AM
My premium is the same way. I can't even hear the back

SRT4Erik
06-26-2007, 12:50 AM
well, I removed the factory rear door speakers and replaced them with some Audax 5.25" 2-way coax's from Madisound.
The OEM rear speakers are actually about 6", and they are integrated into the large, angled adapter plate. To fit ANY aftermarket speakers, you will need to buy or make an adapter plate for the new ones to fit into the door hole. In doing so, you could fit a 3.5" to 7" woofer there easily. (5.25" and 6.5" are most popular)

The front doors use different speakers, a bit larger, but when going aftermarket, you can use any size you want really.

Also, speaker sensitivity (loudeness per watt) has nearly no difference based on size alone. Several other T/S specs will dictate how loud a given driver is (above about 200hz).

I am still trying to find time when my wife is home to tear her deck out and troubleshoot both the wiring and the deck itself for where the problem lies. I will keep you all updated.

roXor_boXor
06-26-2007, 04:22 AM
well, I removed the factory rear door speakers and replaced them with some Audax 5.25" 2-way coax's from Madisound.
The OEM rear speakers are actually about 6", and they are integrated into the large, angled adapter plate. To fit ANY aftermarket speakers, you will need to buy or make an adapter plate for the new ones to fit into the door hole. In doing so, you could fit a 3.5" to 7" woofer there easily. (5.25" and 6.5" are most popular)

The front doors use different speakers, a bit larger, but when going aftermarket, you can use any size you want really.

Also, speaker sensitivity (loudeness per watt) has nearly no difference based on size alone. Several other T/S specs will dictate how loud a given driver is (above about 200hz).

I am still trying to find time when my wife is home to tear her deck out and troubleshoot both the wiring and the deck itself for where the problem lies. I will keep you all updated.
OK I'm not sure I'm following you Erik.
You replaced the rear speakers.
It does not sound like that fixed the level issue if you are planning to tear it apart to find where the problem lies.
Is that right?
I am definitely following this since I notice that it takes a setting of 5 (of 7) to the rear to sound decent. Seems way excessive.

SRT4Erik
06-26-2007, 05:58 AM
nope, new rear speakers didn't help the problem. I am pretty sure its in the deck, but I am going to play with wiring and maybe open up the deck itself and see if there is anything I can do at the component level.

marathonmarty
06-27-2007, 10:00 PM
You need to set-up the audio system for the xB. When it comes from the factory the system is set to tC by default. Push the SSP button in the middle till you hear a beep and th edisplay will show tC. Turn the volume control knob on the left and it will change to xB. Voila! Totally different sound! The dealer techs are supposed to do this before they sell the vehicle but they don't. I've owned 3 Scion products so far ('05 xB, '06 xA, and presently the ownwer of a new '08 SW xB) and none of them were set up correctly. By the way, this is all explained in the back of the manual for the audio system. Sometimes it pays to read them. :wink:

SRT4Erik
06-28-2007, 12:55 AM
thanks Marty, I will go play with that right now ;) I read the manual as far as reprogramming the welcome message and that was it. I should know better, I am an electronics tech.

SRT4Erik
06-28-2007, 12:59 AM
damn, its a no-go. It was already set to XB. I tried all three, xb, xd, tc and none fix this issue. I don't have time to tear into it untill saturday, so I will post what I find.

mikemann
06-28-2007, 01:12 AM
yeah I have the premium radio and already tried this. There is actually two ways to change this and they appear to be independent of each other.

on the premium with the radio on you can hold down ssp. With it off you can hold down menu.

What's weird is you can set them differently. xb on one tc on another etc.

Mine were both TC from the dealer. I've tried every combination possible and I cannot discern much of difference between any of the setting. The only one that seems to make much of a difference is "flat" and to me it's not for the better.

SRT4Erik
06-28-2007, 01:29 AM
The different car settings for SSP is mainly just for EQ/time alignment. It shouldn't have anything to do with the actual "volume" output of the rear speakers.

mikemann
06-28-2007, 03:59 AM
you know, to me...it's not that the rears aren't loud...it's just the comparison to the fronts is night and day. If you fade all the way to the rear and turn up to about 30 volume...the rears are decent...but you fade that to the center or to the front and it's tremendously loud.

SRT4Erik...you're the one that I think that is throwing us all off. I would have guessed it was just the fact that these are smaller (maybe worse since no tweeter/component) than the front and sit so low in the rear that is the reason.

I would have thought for sure, having pgrade/bigger/better speakers would have made the difference.

Can't wait to hear what is found out here.....

BigBHaller
06-28-2007, 04:22 AM
Ok, so I replaced my system with a AVIC-Z2 and the rears are just as low as with the base stock radio. I'm fairly sure that these aren't powered by any amplifiers (other than the head units). So this must mean that the rear speakers just plain... suck.

mikemann
06-28-2007, 05:05 AM
oh man that is confusing! So Erik has new speakers and stock head unit...low rears.

You have a new head unit and stock speakers...low rears.

So does that make it wiring?

-Mike

roXor_boXor
06-28-2007, 05:15 AM
It's the storage under the rear seat absorbing 85% of the rear speaker output. :P


So I just put the fade on rear 5 and crank it to about 35-40 volume. Good to go. This method also prevents any rattles or squeaks from developing in the future (as far as I'll be able to tell). :idea:

Only problem I have then is _____ing from the kids that my music is too loud. :ttth:

uberspeed
06-28-2007, 02:33 PM
Aren't rears only supposed to provide fill? Highs are very dependant on location due to frequencies, no? High's are directional from what I have always known. Some folks even only use really good component set up front and leave the rears alone. Bass freq's don't matter where they're located, not directional.
When you say not loud, do you mean they're not providing rear fill? Sound imaging will usually fade a bit toward the front, not the rear, at least when I last had a vehicle tuned for acoustics and had the sound stage set for SQ that's what the shop did and it sounded great, my research confirmed their settings...

mikemann
06-28-2007, 05:35 PM
I would say IMO at the same volume level. Faded all the way to the rear, volume output is about half the db as compared to the front or even.

The more I've messed with it. It's really not horrible. It's just definitely different than other cars I've been in. To me it's more of the fronts way "overpower" the rears. When fully faded to the rear, as soon as you start to fade forward towards center/equal the fronts just take over.

Which is why I why I originally said...I just assumed it was a speaker quality/size/placement thing. But Erik's post (especially since he appears to be a car audio guy from his sig) about aftermarket speakers not being better, it a little disheartening.

-Mike

city-soundzdotcom
06-28-2007, 06:00 PM
I would say IMO at the same volume level. Faded all the way to the rear, volume output is about half the db as compared to the front or even.

The more I've messed with it. It's really not horrible. It's just definitely different than other cars I've been in. To me it's more of the fronts way "overpower" the rears. When fully faded to the rear, as soon as you start to fade forward towards center/equal the fronts just take over.

Which is why I why I originally said...I just assumed it was a speaker quality/size/placement thing. But Erik's post (especially since he appears to be a car audio guy from his sig) about aftermarket speakers not being better, it a little disheartening.

-Mike

It really does sound like a placement and power issue. Since i have heard that the speakers are bigger in the front than the rear makes me ASSUME that there also less powered. It is usually that the rears are bigger and more powered in my experiences. I would say if you want more power all the way around to change out the crap stock speakers and put in some good components or at the least three ways. Take the adapter needed and put in 6.5 in the rear as well as the front. Use a small 4 channel amp to power just your speakers. This will mean all speakers get same power, amps, and are the same speakers. Then test to make sure they are wired correctly which you can do with a 9volt battery (the one with both terminals at top) Below this is how to test polarity of speakers. Then you can tune the amp to what you need with the gain and such to get a better level of sound from front to rear. This sounds like it will be the only option for the problem you guys are having.

How to test polairty of a speaker.

First, if you have all factory wiring then find out what colors is pos and neg. It usually will have a pattern to it like the lighter color of the two is pos and he darker neg but not all the time.

Second, if you have an aftermarket stereo in your car and an adapter harness this will be easier for you as they are wired with generic colors. But you still need to write down which stock colors are pos and neg.

The test:

First get your speakers visible so you can see if they pop out or in when you hold the battery to them.

Next: Now this will be easier for some and harder for others. We will use SPEAKER 1 as our example speaker and its wire colors will be PINK for pos and GREY for neg.

Now that i have located the wire color polarity i will begin the test. Take the speaker out of the car, marking which wire was where (pink on left grey on right). Then take two little pieces of extra speaker wire and some how attach them to the terminals (does not need to be fancy, just good enough for the test.) Then after the wires are attached to the speaker touch the pos terminal to the pos on the 9volt battery. Then while you watch your speaker touch the neg terminal to the neg of the battery and you should see the speaker either pop in or out. Write this down.

Now do the same test to all your speakers. Marking what the factory says are the pos and neg wire colors and then putting it up to the battery to see if it pops out or in. Write the results down and review.

It doesnt matter what way it pops (usually out) as long as all the speakers pop the same way. If they all pop the same way when hooked up to the 9volt then your polairty is correct and you are not loosing sound because of a bad wiring job. If they pop differently then you have wiring issues either from factory or if you have an aftermarket stereo then from whoever hooked it up.

If you have any qustions please feel free to ask.

I am very intrested to see what the results will be, i just wish i had the car so i could figure it out.

City-Soundz.com

Bigfieroman
06-28-2007, 07:06 PM
I think I might know why there is such a difference.

The front speakers are wired in parallel with the tweeters behind the mirrors. This presents the head unit with a 2 ohm load, (the tweeters say 4 ohm, i assume the door speakers are 4 ohm, hence 2 ohm overall) resulting in more wattage. Combined with the speakers size difference, the fronts easily overpower the rears. This makes sense, since replacing the speakers or head unit would not fix the problem. You have to bypass the tweeters completely to solve the issue.

I am installing new speakers pretty soon, (6.5 front and rear) and I am going to just bypass the pillar speakers. I think this will drop the front speakers even with the rears, as well as provide an overall cleaner sound (2 ohm is more susceptible to distortion).

SRT4Erik
06-29-2007, 01:30 AM
It doesn't quite work that way. The capacitor keeps the tweeter from playing the same frequencies as the woofer in a range where a 2 ohm load would make a difference. Its still a 4 ohm nominal system. Besides, impedance changes with frequency, rising a lot at resonance. Lower impedances ask for too much current for an amplifiers output stage (if they are not designed for that low), thats why they can clip, causing distortion at max output.

Anyway, after a quick glance, either the rears have less power from the deck's amp itself, or its the small 24-30 gauge wire going to them ;)

City-soundz, polarity wont affect total output too much in the mid-high range, at least not the level that I am experiencing. THe rears are about 20db lower than the fronts. I can stick my ear in front of a rear speaker and still hear the fronts louder at a 0 fade setting. Its just a crappy deck (amp) and/or crappy, small wiring.

Bigfieroman
06-29-2007, 02:19 AM
Ok, so when replacing the front and rear speakers, should I bypass the tweeters or leave them in the loop? (Polk audio db650, btw) Sorry to be a bit off-topic/threadjack.

mikemann
06-29-2007, 03:24 AM
bigbhaller replaced his deck and still has the same issue. It must be the speaker and the wiring then.

So like Bigfieroman, I'm curious....if you wanted to keep the stock deck, what's the best way to solve within reason?

Get a decent 4 channel amp and replace speakers?

uberspeed
06-29-2007, 03:38 AM
The route I'm taking is Premium OEM headunit, then have a shop do:
sound deadening
good wiring
amp
component set(s)

After that I'll look into a sub enclosure or something for lows.

Bigfieroman
06-29-2007, 04:03 AM
bigbhaller replaced his deck and still has the same issue. It must be the speaker and the wiring then.

So like Bigfieroman, I'm curious....if you wanted to keep the stock deck, what's the best way to solve within reason?

Get a decent 4 channel amp and replace speakers?

I dunno, according to SRT4erik, the tweeters aren't the problem.

city-soundzdotcom
06-29-2007, 05:40 AM
It doesn't quite work that way. The capacitor keeps the tweeter from playing the same frequencies as the woofer in a range where a 2 ohm load would make a difference. Its still a 4 ohm nominal system. Besides, impedance changes with frequency, rising a lot at resonance. Lower impedances ask for too much current for an amplifiers output stage (if they are not designed for that low), thats why they can clip, causing distortion at max output.

Anyway, after a quick glance, either the rears have less power from the deck's amp itself, or its the small 24-30 gauge wire going to them ;)

City-soundz, polarity wont affect total output too much in the mid-high range, at least not the level that I am experiencing. THe rears are about 20db lower than the fronts. I can stick my ear in front of a rear speaker and still hear the fronts louder at a 0 fade setting. Its just a crappy deck (amp) and/or crappy, small wiring.

Yes you will still hear sound coming out of the speakers, its just that if the polarity of the speakers is backwards from the front and underpowered then a volume drop will be noticed. The soundwaves actually will cancel eachother out creating distortion and lower volumes. It may not effect as much as other probelms that the whole speaker system seems to be having but will be a noticeable difference if it is wired wrong.

City-Soundz.com

SRT4Erik
06-29-2007, 05:06 PM
factory wiring and all speakers are in phase. I am installing new front components today (mach5 ml-65 mids, seas 27tffnc/g tweets, custom xo's). I might just run new wires to the rear to see if that helps first.

mikemann
07-06-2007, 06:46 PM
Any more news on this? I'm still interested if anyone has made any significant changes/improvements here....

Safetyguy
07-06-2007, 07:56 PM
I am interested in a reasonable solution as well. Standing by!

SRT4Erik
07-06-2007, 10:45 PM
It looks to be the signal processing within the scion decks. Its not the wiring or the speakers. Best cure is probably to run an amp and/or a better deck.

mikemann
07-30-2007, 08:40 AM
was there any more to this? Has anyone just replaced the speakers and kept the stock head unit, no amp?

Any improvement?

-Mike