Low budget audio upgrade
10-23-2007, 07:56 AM
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Low budget audio upgrade
I'm looking to upgrade my basic HU XB2 audio on a low budget but I have some questions:
1) Is there any advantage to using a line-out to pre-amp convertor over the speaker-level inputs on my old 100W Kenwood mono-sub amp? Don't they both do the same thing?
2) How about impedence issues when I add the amp? How should I run the speaker wires to the amp? Can I simply splice into the rear speaker wires and run them to the amp in parallel?
3) I have a Q-Loqic small sealed enclosure with a blown Polk 10" driver. What's a good but inexpensive 10" driver replacement for a small sealed box? I want tight, accurate bass, not booming bandpass bass.
4) Any thoughts on the Infinity Reference 6012i 6.5" coaxials? I can get them for only $60/pair. I've had Kappas before and loved them (even though some find Infinity to be too 'bright' and lacking exagerated bass).
5) How important are bass blockers (coils) for 6.5" speakers?
TIA for any help.
1) Is there any advantage to using a line-out to pre-amp convertor over the speaker-level inputs on my old 100W Kenwood mono-sub amp? Don't they both do the same thing?
2) How about impedence issues when I add the amp? How should I run the speaker wires to the amp? Can I simply splice into the rear speaker wires and run them to the amp in parallel?
3) I have a Q-Loqic small sealed enclosure with a blown Polk 10" driver. What's a good but inexpensive 10" driver replacement for a small sealed box? I want tight, accurate bass, not booming bandpass bass.
4) Any thoughts on the Infinity Reference 6012i 6.5" coaxials? I can get them for only $60/pair. I've had Kappas before and loved them (even though some find Infinity to be too 'bright' and lacking exagerated bass).
5) How important are bass blockers (coils) for 6.5" speakers?
TIA for any help.
10-24-2007, 11:11 PM
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1. I belive these are basically the same thing. the hi-level inputs on your amp is basically a buil-in line out converter, right? I think I read somewhere that you want your converter to be as close to the source (head unit) as possible...
2. Not too sure... I think you only need to splice into 1 speaker for a subwoofer amp. I can't tell if you're talking about your mono sub amp or a stereo amp...
3. I like Image Dynamics IDQ10 subs a lot - about $150 for a 10". I used them in 2 cars. This is a personal prefference though.
4.They'll be a hell of a lot better than the stock speakers! I got POLD db6501 for the fron ($99) and db651 for the rear ($49) from ebay. They sound pretty darn good even without an amp!
5. If you don't have an electronic crossover then I'd go for bass blockers. If you don't try to reproduce power-hungry low frequencies then you'll have more amp power on-tap for the other frequencies. I might add a sub under one of the front seats. I'm going to try it without bass blockers first and crossover the sub pretty low - maybe 50-60Hz. If that doesn't work out, I'll add bass blockers and cross over at 80Hz.
2. Not too sure... I think you only need to splice into 1 speaker for a subwoofer amp. I can't tell if you're talking about your mono sub amp or a stereo amp...
3. I like Image Dynamics IDQ10 subs a lot - about $150 for a 10". I used them in 2 cars. This is a personal prefference though.
4.They'll be a hell of a lot better than the stock speakers! I got POLD db6501 for the fron ($99) and db651 for the rear ($49) from ebay. They sound pretty darn good even without an amp!
5. If you don't have an electronic crossover then I'd go for bass blockers. If you don't try to reproduce power-hungry low frequencies then you'll have more amp power on-tap for the other frequencies. I might add a sub under one of the front seats. I'm going to try it without bass blockers first and crossover the sub pretty low - maybe 50-60Hz. If that doesn't work out, I'll add bass blockers and cross over at 80Hz.
10-25-2007, 12:39 AM
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Re: Low budget audio upgrade
Originally Posted by ScionFred
I'm looking to upgrade my basic HU XB2 audio on a low budget but I have some questions:
1) Is there any advantage to using a line-out to pre-amp convertor over the speaker-level inputs on my old 100W Kenwood mono-sub amp? Don't they both do the same thing?
::: "YES.. the RCA pre-outs sound much better & get less distorted power vrs the line out adapatars. I HAD the same set up with mine, fred.. Stock stereo with line out adapaters & had to really 'gain' up the amp to get it to get up there.. almost maxing it out... The line out adapter was hooked into a rear speaker..
and after changing out the stereo with an aftermarket with pre-outs..I had to turn the amp down by more than halfway as it was way too loud previous settings with the adapatars.."""
2) How about impedence issues when I add the amp? How should I run the speaker wires to the amp? Can I simply splice into the rear speaker wires and run them to the amp in parallel?
::::: " hhmmm dont know that one..." sorry
3) I have a Q-Loqic small sealed enclosure with a blown Polk 10" driver. What's a good but inexpensive 10" driver replacement for a small sealed box? I want tight, accurate bass, not booming bandpass bass.
::: hhhhhhhmm plenty of choices out there.. PLENTY"...
4) Any thoughts on the Infinity Reference 6012i 6.5" coaxials? I can get them for only $60/pair. I've had Kappas before and loved them (even though some find Infinity to be too 'bright' and lacking exagerated bass).
:::"exactly what I put in my front doors.. same speakers!!! Those combined with the subwoofer suplimenting the base... I think the sound is perfect!!!! I hear it all!! & it get's good & loud if i want it to.. No distortion.. If you think it's too bright, just turn down your 'highs". I have mine set about 3/4's the way up & like I said.. the sound is perfect!"""
5) How important are bass blockers (coils) for 6.5" speakers?
:::'Dont know,. i didnt use any"... just swappped the speakers with the Infinity refs..."" sorry
hope this helps ya!..... good luck... jh
TIA for any help.
1) Is there any advantage to using a line-out to pre-amp convertor over the speaker-level inputs on my old 100W Kenwood mono-sub amp? Don't they both do the same thing?
::: "YES.. the RCA pre-outs sound much better & get less distorted power vrs the line out adapatars. I HAD the same set up with mine, fred.. Stock stereo with line out adapaters & had to really 'gain' up the amp to get it to get up there.. almost maxing it out... The line out adapter was hooked into a rear speaker..
and after changing out the stereo with an aftermarket with pre-outs..I had to turn the amp down by more than halfway as it was way too loud previous settings with the adapatars.."""
2) How about impedence issues when I add the amp? How should I run the speaker wires to the amp? Can I simply splice into the rear speaker wires and run them to the amp in parallel?
::::: " hhmmm dont know that one..." sorry
3) I have a Q-Loqic small sealed enclosure with a blown Polk 10" driver. What's a good but inexpensive 10" driver replacement for a small sealed box? I want tight, accurate bass, not booming bandpass bass.
::: hhhhhhhmm plenty of choices out there.. PLENTY"...
4) Any thoughts on the Infinity Reference 6012i 6.5" coaxials? I can get them for only $60/pair. I've had Kappas before and loved them (even though some find Infinity to be too 'bright' and lacking exagerated bass).
:::"exactly what I put in my front doors.. same speakers!!! Those combined with the subwoofer suplimenting the base... I think the sound is perfect!!!! I hear it all!! & it get's good & loud if i want it to.. No distortion.. If you think it's too bright, just turn down your 'highs". I have mine set about 3/4's the way up & like I said.. the sound is perfect!"""
5) How important are bass blockers (coils) for 6.5" speakers?
:::'Dont know,. i didnt use any"... just swappped the speakers with the Infinity refs..."" sorry
hope this helps ya!..... good luck... jh
TIA for any help.
10-25-2007, 01:19 AM
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Thanks for the helpful replies. I think I have narrowed down my choices and most of my questions have been answered.
1) Since I will be keeping the stock HU for now, I'll just use the speaker lvl inputs on my sub amp. My only concern here is that the amp is rated for 25W input but the HU is rated at 40W output. I'll just set the input gain to min and it should be okay.
2) The rated input impedance on my amp is 10k ohm so wiring it in parallel with 4 ohm speakers shouldn't put any extra strain on the HU.
3) I've narrowed the sub driver down to the $70 Pioneer TS-W251R or the $90 JBL GTO1004D. I'm leaning towards the JBL because it has dual voice coils that can be bridged to a 2 ohm load. My Kenwood amp is rated for 120W rms @4 ohm and 160W rms @2 ohm so the 91db JBL should hit harder than the 90db Pioneer.
4) I think I'll go with the Infinitys up front. Although I also like the Polk DB651 a lot and I can get them for about the same cost from ebay, I'd rather buy through Crutchfield and get their free mounting rings and wiring adapters.
5) I'm going to skip the bass blockers for now and see how it sounds without them. I'm not so keen on their 150Hz cut-off. I'd prefer 100Hz hi-pass coils instead.
Thanks again for the help. I haven't ordered yet so I'm still oepn to any suggestions. TIA.
1) Since I will be keeping the stock HU for now, I'll just use the speaker lvl inputs on my sub amp. My only concern here is that the amp is rated for 25W input but the HU is rated at 40W output. I'll just set the input gain to min and it should be okay.
2) The rated input impedance on my amp is 10k ohm so wiring it in parallel with 4 ohm speakers shouldn't put any extra strain on the HU.
3) I've narrowed the sub driver down to the $70 Pioneer TS-W251R or the $90 JBL GTO1004D. I'm leaning towards the JBL because it has dual voice coils that can be bridged to a 2 ohm load. My Kenwood amp is rated for 120W rms @4 ohm and 160W rms @2 ohm so the 91db JBL should hit harder than the 90db Pioneer.
4) I think I'll go with the Infinitys up front. Although I also like the Polk DB651 a lot and I can get them for about the same cost from ebay, I'd rather buy through Crutchfield and get their free mounting rings and wiring adapters.
5) I'm going to skip the bass blockers for now and see how it sounds without them. I'm not so keen on their 150Hz cut-off. I'd prefer 100Hz hi-pass coils instead.
Thanks again for the help. I haven't ordered yet so I'm still oepn to any suggestions. TIA.
10-25-2007, 02:14 AM
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Cool...
The 40w/channel output from the HU is peak power. I bet the *160 watt* Scion HU puts out somewhere between 15-22w RMS. Your amp should handle the speaker level inputs just fine.
Infinities should be fine... Butif you would rather have the db651 then I just want to remind you that they come with speaker adapters.
btw "The rated input impedance on my amp is 10k ohm so wiring it in parallel with 4 ohm speakers shouldn't put any extra strain on the HU. " - I don't get this statement. If you want to wire up a 2 ohm load just make sure that your amp is 2 ohm-stable.
The 40w/channel output from the HU is peak power. I bet the *160 watt* Scion HU puts out somewhere between 15-22w RMS. Your amp should handle the speaker level inputs just fine.
Infinities should be fine... Butif you would rather have the db651 then I just want to remind you that they come with speaker adapters.
btw "The rated input impedance on my amp is 10k ohm so wiring it in parallel with 4 ohm speakers shouldn't put any extra strain on the HU. " - I don't get this statement. If you want to wire up a 2 ohm load just make sure that your amp is 2 ohm-stable.
10-25-2007, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rockthebeef
Cool...
The 40w/channel output from the HU is peak power. I bet the *160 watt* Scion HU puts out somewhere between 15-22w RMS. Your amp should handle the speaker level inputs just fine.
Infinities should be fine... Butif you would rather have the db651 then I just want to remind you that they come with speaker adapters.
btw "The rated input impedance on my amp is 10k ohm so wiring it in parallel with 4 ohm speakers shouldn't put any extra strain on the HU. " - I don't get this statement. If you want to wire up a 2 ohm load just make sure that your amp is 2 ohm-stable.
The 40w/channel output from the HU is peak power. I bet the *160 watt* Scion HU puts out somewhere between 15-22w RMS. Your amp should handle the speaker level inputs just fine.
Infinities should be fine... Butif you would rather have the db651 then I just want to remind you that they come with speaker adapters.
btw "The rated input impedance on my amp is 10k ohm so wiring it in parallel with 4 ohm speakers shouldn't put any extra strain on the HU. " - I don't get this statement. If you want to wire up a 2 ohm load just make sure that your amp is 2 ohm-stable.
I'm still trying to decide between the Infinitys and Polks. I'll probably be equally happy with either and AFAIK they both come with mounting plates.
I've always used pre-amp outputs in the past so I was concerned that adding a speaker-lvl amp might lower the impedance for the HU, which I'm not sure is 2 ohm stable. Apparently it's nothing to worry about. I'll just splice into the speaker wires and run leads to the amp in parallel with the speakers.
My dilemmas now are choosing the right 10" sub driver and figuring out where to install the amp. The guy I've spoken with at Crutchfield is telling me to match the driver to the 120W rms amp based on the driver's max rms power rating but I've always relied on driver sensitivity instead. He's recommending an 87db Kicker or 85db Rockford Fosgate because their max rms rating is 150W but I'm more inclined to go with a 90db+ driver even if it is rated for more power than my amp has. My thoughts are that if you're driving a sub with a low-powered amp you want the highest driver sensitivity you can get and the max rms rating is more related to how much power and heat the driver can handle.
As for the amp, I'd like to install it into the tray above the spare tire but I'm afraid it might overheat there. Perhaps it would it be better under the passenger seat?
10-25-2007, 09:22 PM
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Update:
I ordered the Infinity Reference 6012i's from Crutchfield for $60 and I found the 10" Pioneer TS-W251R for $40 shipped on ebay. I know that there are much better speakers out there but for ~$100 out-of-pocket and some old parts I had laying around, it should sound decent.
Stock HU
Infinity 6012i in front doors
Kenwood 120W rms (240W max) mono amp
Pioneer 10" sub in .65 cf sealed Q-Logic box
I may move the stock front speakers to the rear doors since they appear to be a better driver and it looks like the mounting holes will match up. I like my soundstage in front so all I want in back is some fill anyway.
I'll probably mount the amp under the rear seat so it has some air around it. Does anyone know off-hand what guage power wire I'll need for the 25A fused amp? Any suggestions for a power turn-on source for the amp would also be appreciated.
I ordered the Infinity Reference 6012i's from Crutchfield for $60 and I found the 10" Pioneer TS-W251R for $40 shipped on ebay. I know that there are much better speakers out there but for ~$100 out-of-pocket and some old parts I had laying around, it should sound decent.
Stock HU
Infinity 6012i in front doors
Kenwood 120W rms (240W max) mono amp
Pioneer 10" sub in .65 cf sealed Q-Logic box
I may move the stock front speakers to the rear doors since they appear to be a better driver and it looks like the mounting holes will match up. I like my soundstage in front so all I want in back is some fill anyway.
I'll probably mount the amp under the rear seat so it has some air around it. Does anyone know off-hand what guage power wire I'll need for the 25A fused amp? Any suggestions for a power turn-on source for the amp would also be appreciated.
10-25-2007, 11:49 PM
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[quote="ScionFred"]Update:
I ordered the Infinity Reference 6012i's from Crutchfield .......
I may move the stock front speakers to the rear doors since they appear to be a better driver and it looks like the mounting holes will match up. I like my soundstage in front so all I want in back is some fill anyway.
I'll probably mount the amp under the rear seat so it has some air around it. quote]
Fred.... Congrats on your purchases...
As i did what you did, i went with the Infinitys too.. AND i wanted to move the front Scion speakers to the rear.. When i pulled the rear door panel, & drilled out the speaker... I found out that the front speakers wont fit in the rear stock holes.. They are too small.. i would have to either 'cut' out the hole larger with a jig-saw with a metal blade... or use some kind of adaptar whick I dont have...../
IF you do get this swap done.. please show us how you managed to get your stock front speakers in the rear door holes, wil ya?? thanks...
Also.. I putmy amp under my passanger seat.. BUT . agian another BUT... there is an air vent that blows air under both front seats... Now I like to run my heater as I get cold very easily.. BUT I didnt want an AMp 'pre-heater' either.. The vent blows right onto the amp!!... So I cut up a T-shirt & stuffed it into the vent then sealed it shut with duct tape.. I didnt want the heat to blow right onto my amp... so be advised. ok???
So be sure to take pics of your new system & let us know how it turns out.@!!... good luck.. jh
I ordered the Infinity Reference 6012i's from Crutchfield .......
I may move the stock front speakers to the rear doors since they appear to be a better driver and it looks like the mounting holes will match up. I like my soundstage in front so all I want in back is some fill anyway.
I'll probably mount the amp under the rear seat so it has some air around it. quote]
Fred.... Congrats on your purchases...
As i did what you did, i went with the Infinitys too.. AND i wanted to move the front Scion speakers to the rear.. When i pulled the rear door panel, & drilled out the speaker... I found out that the front speakers wont fit in the rear stock holes.. They are too small.. i would have to either 'cut' out the hole larger with a jig-saw with a metal blade... or use some kind of adaptar whick I dont have...../
IF you do get this swap done.. please show us how you managed to get your stock front speakers in the rear door holes, wil ya?? thanks...
Also.. I putmy amp under my passanger seat.. BUT . agian another BUT... there is an air vent that blows air under both front seats... Now I like to run my heater as I get cold very easily.. BUT I didnt want an AMp 'pre-heater' either.. The vent blows right onto the amp!!... So I cut up a T-shirt & stuffed it into the vent then sealed it shut with duct tape.. I didnt want the heat to blow right onto my amp... so be advised. ok???
So be sure to take pics of your new system & let us know how it turns out.@!!... good luck.. jh
10-26-2007, 04:50 AM
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Thanks jimmbomb. You may have saved me a lot of hassle trying to swap the front speakers into the rear doors. Since all I want is some fill in back, I probably won't bother. OTOH, if I feel ambitous enough, I may make some spacer plates and do it anyway. If I do, I'll try to remember to take some pics and post what I did.
Thanks too for the tip on amp mounting. I'll probably put mine under the rear seat to avoid that air duct. Since I normally drive alone I plan to put all extra weight on the passenger side to balance things out a bit. That niche under the rear seat looks like a good spot for an amp.
I hope I don't regret not getting components in front and a better sub but if I'm not satisfied, those Infinitys would sound great in the rear doors and ultimately I'd like a stealth sub anyway. I've had too many car windows broken over the years by thieves who wanted to steal my speaker boxes. I haven't measured yet but it looks like we could fit a small sealed box under the passenger seat with a 8-10" low-profile sub. Ideally I'd like to see a dual-sub box under the rear seat but I'm not ambitious to make one.
I'll let you know how ti all works out and thanks again for the help.
Thanks too for the tip on amp mounting. I'll probably put mine under the rear seat to avoid that air duct. Since I normally drive alone I plan to put all extra weight on the passenger side to balance things out a bit. That niche under the rear seat looks like a good spot for an amp.
I hope I don't regret not getting components in front and a better sub but if I'm not satisfied, those Infinitys would sound great in the rear doors and ultimately I'd like a stealth sub anyway. I've had too many car windows broken over the years by thieves who wanted to steal my speaker boxes. I haven't measured yet but it looks like we could fit a small sealed box under the passenger seat with a 8-10" low-profile sub. Ideally I'd like to see a dual-sub box under the rear seat but I'm not ambitious to make one.
I'll let you know how ti all works out and thanks again for the help.
10-26-2007, 02:03 PM
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https://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=190919
mabey you remember this thread, fred????
they look interesting & stealthy!!!!
mabey you remember this thread, fred????
they look interesting & stealthy!!!!
10-27-2007, 05:45 AM
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Yeah, I did see that. I just don't think I'd be satisfied with those Kenwood or Blaupunkt units. The Kenwood probably has nice tight bass but you're just not going to get really deep bass from a 6.5" driver. The 8" Blaupunkt should be better but Unity303's review of it turned me off.
10-27-2007, 06:03 AM
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Check this thread out to see what eD is cooking up:
https://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=197875
https://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=197875
10-27-2007, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by xseveredveganx
You could do a Digital Designs 1508 in a ported enclosure. I've heard of those drivers doing pretty well.
Pricing isn't bad, either.
Pricing isn't bad, either.
I really don't know what I'll end up with eventually but I'd like a stealth sub with at least an 8" driver and preferably a 10". A sub box that replaces the foam tray over the spare tire might be perfect for our cars.
10-27-2007, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ScionFred
I really don't know what I'll end up with eventually but I'd like a stealth sub with at least an 8" driver and preferably a 10". A sub box that replaces the foam tray over the spare tire might be perfect for our cars.
10-28-2007, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by uberspeed
Which apparently is what eD has begun work on since the underseat enclosure doesn't seem like it's going to work. I'm sure others will make some as well. Scoche made one for the xB1.
Watching with interest...
10-30-2007, 11:52 PM
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Update:
I installed the Infinity 6012s in the front doors today. Pretty easy once you figure out the proper way to remove the door panels. On my first attempt I started at a corner and half of the push-clips stayed in the door. No harm though, nothing broken. On the next door I figured out why they put a cut-out in the bottom of the door panels. If you use the cut-out and yank on the panel from the bottom, it pops right off with all the clips still on the panel.
Anyway, I installed a 10"x10" sheet of dynamat over each speaker opening, cut out the speaker opening and applied that piece directly behind the speakers. I also cut out around the push-clip holes so the clips would seat properly. The door cut-outs are over-sized for 6.5" speakers and adapters are required. The ones that came with the speakers worked better than the extra pair that Crutchfield supplied.
Anyway, they sound great for only $60. Like someone else said of their Polks, these too make the SSP modes sound too exagerated so I'm running neutral SSP with +3 bass and 0 treble. The overall SQ is much more clear and balanced. Pioneer did a good job with EQ to make the stock speakers sound as good as they did but these Infinitys are still a big improvement. Now all I need is some deep bass. I'm going to tackle the amp/sub install tommorrow and have some questions but I started a new thread for those since we all know how new threads get more attention.
I installed the Infinity 6012s in the front doors today. Pretty easy once you figure out the proper way to remove the door panels. On my first attempt I started at a corner and half of the push-clips stayed in the door. No harm though, nothing broken. On the next door I figured out why they put a cut-out in the bottom of the door panels. If you use the cut-out and yank on the panel from the bottom, it pops right off with all the clips still on the panel.
Anyway, I installed a 10"x10" sheet of dynamat over each speaker opening, cut out the speaker opening and applied that piece directly behind the speakers. I also cut out around the push-clip holes so the clips would seat properly. The door cut-outs are over-sized for 6.5" speakers and adapters are required. The ones that came with the speakers worked better than the extra pair that Crutchfield supplied.
Anyway, they sound great for only $60. Like someone else said of their Polks, these too make the SSP modes sound too exagerated so I'm running neutral SSP with +3 bass and 0 treble. The overall SQ is much more clear and balanced. Pioneer did a good job with EQ to make the stock speakers sound as good as they did but these Infinitys are still a big improvement. Now all I need is some deep bass. I'm going to tackle the amp/sub install tommorrow and have some questions but I started a new thread for those since we all know how new threads get more attention.
10-31-2007, 02:21 AM
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Fred, eD has their enclosures for the xB2 available now.
Check them out:
Single 13: http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/pro...roducts_id=655
Dual 10: http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/pro...roducts_id=654
Spare is lost with either one, FYI.
Check them out:
Single 13: http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/pro...roducts_id=655
Dual 10: http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/pro...roducts_id=654
Spare is lost with either one, FYI.
10-31-2007, 04:21 AM
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Nice. Pity about losing the spare though, you never know when you might actually need that. I wonder how a pair of 10's would sound with my little Kenwood 160W rms @2 ohm amp? I could maybe see myself losing the spare and spending $175 plus another $50 for a second driver but if I need a new amp, eD will definitely have to wait.
