Read on some online review that the tC rear end tends to kick out if you lift throttle exiting a fast sweeping turn. Anyone care to comment on their experiences with this? I got the trd rear sway bar and it is on 'street' for now until I get more info. Thanks.

I don't even know what this "lift throttle over-steer" is, never experienced it in my life in my tC, even before I installed the TRD springs, shocks and rear sway bar - I'm guessing it's exactly what it sounds like though, the back end comes out while turning when you stop accelerating suddenly in a turn - but going by the laws of physics, that would obviously happen in any car because of the weight shift forward and gravity, maybe it's just more noticeable compared to the modena's and the ME 412's and Volta's the reviewers are used to driving

but I can tell you I take corners in my car faster and harder than any other car I've ever driven with that setup, and I'm getting to the point of control where I can feel the stock tires quitting on me.... kinda sad really, you end up adapting to the conditions and then you see a weak point that needs to be fixed.... but, that's the human body for you =)

Thanks, here's one review that mentioned it, though not the original one I read:

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/coupes/2005_scion_tc/

"That double-control-arm, independent rear suspension contributes to entertaining handling that allows some lift-throttle oversteer at the limit."

I came from an 85 civic with springs, shocks, strut bar and no rear sway bar so I'm used to understeer at the limit where you let up a little on the gas and everything is just fine. And since the stock tires on the tC suck in the wet weather we have been having I'm a little weary about flying the car around like I did the civic. I just gotta get more used to the car. :wink:

PS love the sig. how creative the mind is at filling in the gaps.

yesti, as you may know, oversteer can be useful in setting up for a turn or for a correction in mid-turn. The idea is to bring the back end of the car out some, rotating the car to point in the right direction. Most cars are designed to understeer so badly that oversteer cannot be induced. With a fairly neutral front wheel drive car, however, oversteer can be induced by lifting off of the throttle, especially at higher rpm with a manual transmission (greater engine braking will cause more load to transfer to the front, reducing grip in the rear). In a rear wheel drive car, this can also be achieved by adding enough power to cause the rear wheels to slip, which is much more fun.

Unless you are entering turns too fast, and then reacting poorly by lifting, you shouldn't have an oversteer problem. But this is why cars are designed with so much understeer in the first place. Remember, slow in, fast out.

As far as lifting at the exit of a fast sweeping turn, that just sounds like trouble to me.

I have the TRD suspension, with the bar on the 'race' setting, and haven't had any oversteer problem on the street. I plan on taking the tC to the track in February, so I'll have a chance to experiment with oversteer there.

You are right, the stock tires are junk. A good, inexpensive upgrade is the Fuzion ZRi. Made by Bridgestone and roughly equivalent to the RE-750. You can get them for about $80 for the stock size.

thanks, hope to read a post after you've taken it to the track. i'm guessing the auto is far less prone to oversteer than manual? <embarassed> probably worrying for nothing. can't wait to change these tires, thanks for the suggestion.

I wouldn't say the rear end lifts so much as the front end dives. Maybe its just semantics, but that's the seat-of-the-pants feel that I get from it. It induces oversteer because suddenly the front end is getting a lot more traction than it was under throttle.

I have the stock suspension, and I can feel the back end being just a bit on the verge of coming out. I haven't actually had the back end come out, but maybe I'm not quite driving it hard enough. :)

The car I test drove had the TRD springs and struts, and had been lowered. It was pretty harsh on bumps, but it was PLANTED in the curves...

Hey thanks for the informal review of the trd struts/springs. I want to lower the car an inch or so, probably with prokits, but i don't want to worsen the already bumpy ride (there i go blaming the rims/tires again) with stiff struts/shocks. But I need to upgrade them or else the springs will make short work of the stock shocks. Such a dilemma...hopefully tokico or koni will come out with adjustable shocks for our cars soon.

I drove it pretty hard in my test drive. Made the tires squeal in the curves and I couldn't get it to feel like it was even close skidding either the front or the rear and actually losing traction. I also braked in straight-line hard enough to engage the ABS and the front end didn't dive as much as the stock suspension does on mine, although in stopping distance I think it makes no difference. As far as the harshness of the bumps all I can say is consider how the roads are in the area you usually drive in. If the roads are bad I'd say forget about the suspension mods. If the roads are pretty good then go for it. The roads where I am are so bad that even with the stock suspension its a bit of a jolting ride. The tC is heavy enough that it glides over the big bumps better than a lot of cars, but the suspension is sporty enough that you feel every single little bump..

.

Most any car will kick the tail out if you lift the throttle at the cornering limit. That's just the way it is. Front drive, rear drive all wheel drive..it's vehicle dynamics and weight transfer wanting to make your car swap ends.

Most any car will kick the tail out if you lift the throttle at the cornering limit.

I would have to agree with sdparks:

Most cars are designed to understeer so badly that oversteer cannot be induced. With a fairly neutral front wheel drive car, however, oversteer can be induced by lifting off of the throttle

Our cars seem to be setup more towards neutral than most fwd's with a little understeer for safety. But me changing only the rear sway bar set me up to possibly cross that threshold and venture into the possibility of oversteer if driven carelessly at the limit, especially at the stiffer setting.

Mfbenson drove a car with springs/shocks (but not the sway bar, right?) and the car was more firmly planted as can be expected and showed no tendency to break loose--so like stock, but stickier.

So doing the entire spring/shock/swaybar package should raise the cornering limit, but at that higher limit the car should break loose in the rear depending on the sway bar setting and driver input. Maybe we'll hear definitive results from sdparks when he takes it to the track in February.

Thanks all for the posts, they've been most helpful! :D

It was springs, shocks, and lowered, but no sway bar. Much crisper than the stock setup.

I don't know that the sway bar would have done much for a car that already had performance springs and shocks and was lowered. The sway bar helps cars that lean in the curves, and this one already leaned less (in fact, it barely leaned at all - in the curves the sensation was a true lateral g force, not a leaning sensation at all) than the stock setup. If everything else is stock then of course its a different story, the sway bar ought to be a noticeable improvement.

Some cars a sway bar doesn't do that much for it. I used to have a '73 mustang mach 1 that I actually *broke* the sway bar on, and I barely noticed any difference. Scared the heck out of the guy in car with me when it happened, and thinking back on it I should have been scared too. I remember him commenting that he thought I was going to roll it, and at the time I was just trying to figure out why I suddenly had so much more body lean than I was used to... that car was set up for straight-line runs, not curves anyway.

Oh, and before anyone calls BS on breaking a sway bar, a few details: This wasn't like a modern 3/4 inch sway bar, it was about 3/8ths, and it wasn't the sway bar itself that gave - I sheared one of the bolts on the end link. There was an aftermarket kit to put one on that was about 5/8ths that was supposed to be able to transfer more load than the one I had but I never got around to getting it. I just repaired the one I had and stuck with it.

Otocan: Do you happen to study linguistics at all? I studied it at the University of Maryland, College Park. They have some very bright faculty over there, i.e. Lasnik & Crain. Maybe you just heard the quote in your signature from somewhere, but it was worth a shot. ;)

It was springs, shocks, and lowered, but no sway bar...I don't know that the sway bar would have done much for a car that already had performance springs and shocks and was lowered. The sway bar helps cars that lean in the curves, and this one already leaned less (in fact, it barely leaned at all - in the curves the sensation was a true lateral g force, not a leaning sensation at all) than the stock setup. If everything else is stock then of course its a different story, the sway bar ought to be a noticeable improvement.
With springs and shocks you will get some degree of roll control, mostly due to the stiffer shocks (especially since the trd springs are progressive). The civic i had before has a stock front sway bar, adjustable shocks/springs (progressive in the rear) all around and no rear sway bar. Stock, the car had gobs of understeer. With the front shocks set to 2 (out of 5) and the rears set to 4 the car was almost neutral. BUT the only problem with controlling lean with your shocks is the ride gets HARSH. I wouldn't even think to put the rear shocks on 5 to see if I could get it more neutral as various essential organs were already complaning with them set to 4 after 2 weeks. For the most part I had the rears set to 3 and it was stiff, but bearable. Sway bars accomplish the same thing but are far less intrusive to ride quality as they only do anything when one side of the car is higher/lower than the other. If you are just going over a bump the bar simply moves up and down with everything else.

Since the tC is kinda bumpy already (or maybe I'm just getting too old) I wanted to control lean with the sway bar and have the rear shocks set to stock stiffness so that I don't kill the ride quality. Don't get me wrong, stiff is fun but sometimes i just want to get where i'm going without being forced to do a mental pebble count as I drive there :lol:

Oh, and before anyone calls BS on breaking a sway bar...

Nobody's going to call BS for breaking _anything_ on a 73 Mustang. Sorry, couldn't resist.

"Nobody's going to call BS for breaking _anything_ on a 73 Mustang. Sorry, couldn't resist."

Ha Ha. My best quarter-mile run ever in that car was 13.92 @ 101 MPH... beat it in a tC and I'll be impressed.

The mustang didn't get truly bastardized until '74 when the mustang II came out. '73 was past the true glory years, but it wasn't horrible, not by a long shot.

Although in honesty that car had as many replacement and aftermarket parts on it as it did original equipment... had to fix so many broken things on it that eventually it wasn't fun to work on anymore it just became a chore. So yeah, your joke has some truth to it... :)

Update:

Found it!

Yes, if you take a tight turn WAY too fast while your tires are wet and the road is slick, you can indeed have the back end come out with nearly no warning. "Twitchy" is a perfect word to describe it. Even then, it recovered quite quickly. Of course, I looked like a fool trying to keep up with the 350Z (that presumably had dry tires, I had JUST finished washing my car) that was having no problem.

So basically you have to do everything in your power to get the a$$ to swing loose. You have stock suspension? Guess one could fiddle with tire pressures to increase rear grip a tad. Wonder if the tire pressure monitoring system will approve of the constant tinkering ;)

Oh I was asking for trouble alright... but like I say it recovered just as quickly as I got in trouble in the first place. Come to think of it the water on the tires might have been a tad soapy... that would make it really slick.

If I ever have this problem with dry tires I think a tire upgrade will be my first step, before the suspension upgrades.

I guess what surprises most about it is that I was expecting understeer, and instead I got oversteer...

Oh I was asking for trouble alright... but like I say it recovered just as quickly as I got in trouble in the first place.

If I ever have this problem with dry tires I think a tire upgrade will be my first step, before the suspension upgrades.

I guess what surprises most about it is that I was expecting understeer, and instead I got oversteer...

I am slowly feeling a little more daring and I took a turn just a little faster than I otherwise would and I :think: the back end creeped just a bit then got back down. So if that is true it is pretty easy to get it to rotate even with the trd bar on 'street'. Seeing how you got it to break traction stock it is only more oversteer from here on unless I stiffen up the front.

I can't complain enough about the stock tires. :oops: Just waiting to scrub down the fronts so I can use the backs for spares and get some better stuff on there.

Seeing how the tC is aimed at first time car buyers, one wonders why it is set up to spin (well, rotate) bone stock??? Hopefully people don't go on too many unexpected rides thinking they are 'safe' with a FWD car.

I added 4psi to my rear tires since they were all at 33psi from the dealer. Firmed up the handling a little as well as the ride.

I autocrossed my 5spd tc once before installing the TRD springs,shocks and rear bar. The light rear end (oversteer) is much more revealing after the susp upgrade. Getting a FWD to be neutral, let alone oversteer is no easy challenge. Honestly, I would take this oversteer any day over the ugly, understeering, 3-wheel-cornering civics. My second car is a 71 Datsun 240z with tokico illuminas and progreesive springs. It gets a bit confusing sometimes driving them, one you lift to drift, the other, mash it hard lol

I wasnt able to autocross the tC last season after the suspension upgrade but am looking forward to this year. Another that I have noticed with the tC is that the air pressure can make or break the handling. I can inflate/deflate my 240z 5psi in any wheel and hardly feel a difference. In the tC, i can notice just a 2psi loss in the rear.

On a side note, anyone looking for a killer tire cheap, the new BFG g-force sport has unreal grip, its quiet and the treadlife seems to be pretty good. I have 8k on them, 1 autox, plenty of HARD offramps and i am at 5/32.

Thought you guys might want to have a look at the amount of body roll in an autocross. Car is 100% stock at time of pic.

Notice how much rear end squat there is under hard cornering/accel, dive into the corner with the brakes on and all the weight goes to the front.....


http://misheli.image.pbase.com/u19/bryanh/large/36410843.IMG_5905.jpg

thanks for chiming in b_griggs. it seems the tc is easier to make neutral than most FWD cars possibly due to suspension design? 4 psi in the rears did make a huge difference for me, but that may have to do with the sucky stock tires i'm guessing. i was looking at samsclub.com and the BFG KDW tires look pretty good also. Thanks for the tip. can't wait to read your review after the auto-x.

yesti,

i hated those tires soooo much. a friend of mine bought a mazda 3 s a few months before i bought my tc and it came with goodyear eagle rs-a. i thought they were the worst oem tire made until i came accross the RE92:gun:. i got a nail in one at 10k and that was all i needed to ditch them.

costco.com has a good price for the bfg kdw right now. they are showing a pic of the KDW2 and listing it only as a KDW though. i have been meaning to find out exactly which one it is.

first autox of the new season should be around april. :bow:

With stock suspension the lift-off over steer is horrible... But after I installed H&R springs it was a lot more controllable, even at the new, higher limit. Car rides as soft as stock over bumps, but with the back end more planted.

Also, I've slid the back end out at about 50 before, and it's definately with little warning. With H&Rs, I have to go at least 60-65 and reall get on and let off to start sliding the back end out. I bought 18x8 wheels with new tires, that should help evwn more.

On another positve not... I bought the Apexi RSM for my tC. I equpped it with the g-sensor that tells me front to back, and left to right G's. I can measure G's with the stock tires and H&R springs. Then I'll measure G's with 18x8s, then with better bars and so forth. This way, we can see what the mods actually do to the car.

thanks joe looking forward to seeing the results.

I've had this before but I expected it after reading the Tc's specs, it pretty much comes down to:

- Weight transfer: the softer stock suspension allows quite a bit of it. Swap to stiffer springs will help.

- 60/40 front bias: (If i remember the # right) When you lift throttle that heavier front will dig in nicely and the booty can slip out a bit. Not necessarily a bad thing for some, adding a rear sway bar thats too large can exaggerate it though.


All depends on what you like

thanks, kileil. i agree springs may help. usually the spring rates are higher in the back than front so even though the 'problem' may still be there it should be lessened enough.

about the weight bias, maybe i'm just used to my ancient 85 civic with similar weight distribution but nothing short of a FAT rear sway bar and organ exploding stiff rear shocks could get that car to rotate. but that car also weighed 1000+ less pounds so less weight sloshing around.

I took my tC to the track last weekend, check out my post: http://www.clubsciontc.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2597

sdparks, am i correct in assuming you had the sway bar set to 'race'? do you think it would handle better on 'street'?

maybe you could try swapping tire pressures so the rears are higher than the fronts to help with the oversteer also.

what brake pads are you going to try? porterfield r4s are great street pads, but people faded them on the track in crx's so maybe the r4's are needed since the tC is so heavy.

thanks for sharing your experience!

I took my car to the autoX today:

1st thing the car is too quite with helmet on I can't here the engine to shift, there is not time during an autoX to look at tac it is all by sound and I can't hear it with helmet even with windows open. I gotta yank the axle back on race day.

Second thing: the car seem to work pretty well on Yokohama AVS ES 100 36 PSI front 42 PSI rear. rear never step out a single time, front plow was evident as expected from FWD with bone stock suspension. I drove the car with stock RE92 long enough to know that 90% of the suspension problem is the POOR tire. I'm sole that 36 / 42 was a very balance setup.

It was raining on and off so I did not run the full autoX tires. I got spanked bad by a Toyota XRunner that truck is way underclass in H stock! What a truck, it was ahead of many Vetts, Miata, MRS even! IT IS A TRUCK!

I was happy with the rear sway setting (race) in the turns; the car was quite neutral. I don't think that the rear sway should have much effect on the back end getting loose when braking in a straight line anyway. That's really not oversteer because there's no steering being done in the first place.

Bumping up the rear pressures is worth a shot. I always kept the pressure higher in the rear with rear wheel drive, but figured that should be swapped with front wheel drive. In general, increasing pressure in the rear will increase oversteer.

I decided on EBC Redstuff Ceramic brake pads. It is claimed to be a good heavy use street pad that is up to occasional track day use. The road course at TWS isn't very demanding on brakes.

I was happy with the rear sway setting (race) in the turns; the car was quite neutral. I don't think that the rear sway should have much effect on the back end getting loose when braking in a straight line anyway.

Bumping up the rear pressures is worth a shot. In general, increasing pressure in the rear will increase oversteer.

I decided on EBC Redstuff Ceramic brake pads.

i was asking about the rear sway bar setting since in your post you said: "The back end gets loose under braking - very loose." I thought you meant while turning but I may have been mistaken.

Increasing tire pressure will INCREASE grip on that tire (up to a point).

Let us know how the redstuff works.

yesti,

The back end gets loose even when braking in a straight line. Very discomforting. I would actually keep some steering input while braking so at least I would know which way the back was going to go.

Tire pressure is certainly the first thing that should be experimented with. I should also discuss it with my alignment guy.

BTW, I have a video up on clubsciontc. In the Videos forum.

The back end gets loose even when braking in a straight line.

Tire pressure is certainly the first thing that should be experimented with. I should also discuss it with my alignment guy.

BTW, I have a video up on clubsciontc. In the Videos forum.

dang, guess there is way too much weight transfer going on even with springs/shocks?!?! guess you gotta put some old batteries in the hatch j/k ;)

you were right about higher tire pressure on rwd cars, that will reduce oversteer. on fwd cars usually you do want higher in the front to reduce understeer but our cars are seemingly an exception to that rule especially if modded (even lightly).

cool video, looks like fun :)

I will say my last ride with a real performance suspension a VW with Shine Real Street. features very stiff front springs at stock height and stiff rear springs about 1.25 lower then stock. The is no magic to keep the weight off the front the rear has to go down, the front stay the same and the front spring to go up.

My Shine setup was 225 lb-in front at stock height, 180 lb-in rear 1.5 lower then stock. there is also a 1.75 lower 200 lb-in rear the should even perform better but the car looks bad with the butt dragging.

The VW and the tC have about the same weight and loading same front suspension design.

I know the performance "looks" people will just freak out that a FWD needs to be high in the front and low in the back for ultimate grip.. but dat's the truth of the matter.

since february, it has come to my attention that the reason for the freakish nature of our cars seems mostly due to the glass roof (namely, the WEIGHT of it). with so much weight so high up it exaggerates front/rear weight shifting so tremendously as to induce lift throttle oversteer in a stock FWD car.

therefore, if i do springs/shocks then my likely strategy (following oldman's advice) is (if such parts exist without a custom job):

linear front springs (0.5-1.0" drop) to keep the weight from shifting as much
progressive rear springs (1.0-1.5" drop) to keep the ride quality good for the street
koni adjustables (front slightly stiffer than rear, rear being slightly stiffer than stock if not stock setting) to keep up with the higher spring rates and because a stiffer front shock setting doesn't affect ride as much as rear (but if it is rebound only adjustment then that helps a lot too)

the front is ~0.25" lower than the rear stock so i won't be 'looking at the sky' too badly. but reading about the price/install of konis...might have to save a few more pennies.

The VW and the tC have about the same weight and loading same front suspension design.

I know the performance "looks" people will just freak out that a FWD needs to be high in the front and low in the back for ultimate grip.. but dat's the truth of the matter.

So since this thread came back from the depths...Which VW are you referring to? The MkIII suspension geometry is quite different then the tC, and the rules for GTI tuning doen't really apply to the tC. The weight may be similar, but proportions are different, the center of gravity is different, suspension travel is different.

BTW, Shine rocks the VW suspension tuning world. I had a similar setup on my GTI before switching to PSS9s.

Anyway.

Yesti:
Have you read up on the "progressive" springs? There is much debate as to whether or not a progressive springs really exist/work. Not all FWD cars need to be tuned the same way. Consider coilovers and corner balancing...I am a converted spring/shock user after I had my CO equipped GTI corner balanced....a much better autocrossing suspension set up than the Shine gear that I replaced was. Shine may have rocked on a road course (it did), but the COs handled the quick transitions of a tight AX course better.

My .02.

Have you read up on the "progressive" springs? There is much debate as to whether or not a progressive springs really exist/work. Not all FWD cars need to be tuned the same way. Consider coilovers and corner balancing...but the COs handled the quick transitions of a tight AX course better.

I had prokits (progressive) on the rear of my old civic (front was torsion bars, yeah THOSE civics) and liked them a lot. I also had illuminas and those really roughed up the ride (can you say CD player turning OFF, not just skipping! ;P) if you set them high enough (past 3). so it's nice koni is making rebound only adjustable shocks/struts.

adjustable rebound coilovers cost more than the adjustable rebound shock/spring setup and i don't need the height adjustability of coilovers other than it would be 'cool' :) i don't autox, 'spirited' street driving at best (when not stuck in traffic daily). people with the trd springs (progressive) have said the ride is actually 'better' than stock in some cases (most likely due to keeping the stock shocks) and have also reported that the rear end unloads quite a bit under heavy braking with that setup so i think what oldman said makes sense.

but if im wrong anywhere let me know, i want to learn! :)

i'm not really sure why you would be lifting the throttle late in the turn. at the apex you should be adding more thottle, not letting up .. .

did you trail the brakes going into the turn?

if its a fast corner that only needs to ease off the throttle, it still would occur before the apex.

are you taking the corner to fast? . . .do you need to take a different line thru the turn?

i must say, i do experience the the rear end swing out during trail braking. . . or i should say after too agressively trail braking.. .i get too much grip in the front and back seems to want to hop out. . . .it could be from the back being so light as well.

i'm not really sure why you would be lifting the throttle late in the turn. at the apex you should be adding more thottle, not letting up .. .

did you trail the brakes going into the turn?

if its a fast corner that only needs to ease off the throttle, it still would occur before the apex.

are you taking the corner to fast? . . .do you need to take a different line thru the turn?

i must say, i do experience the the rear end swing out during trail braking. . . or i should say after too agressively trail braking.. .i get too much grip in the front and back seems to want to hop out. . . .it could be from the back being so light as well.
not saying i'd PURPOSELY do that, but on the street you never know what may be in your way. but slow in is definately a good, safe way to go about it regardless.

So far I have gotten the rear end to come out twice. All the I have done to the supension is full TRD setup with the swaybar on race. The first time was one my way home from work. There is this off camber 90 degree corner that turn my car into a drifter for about 4 seconds. At this stop light before the corner this guy cut in front of me. So I decided to tail his ___ along this twisty road. Well when we got to this 90 degree left hand corner he crosses the line and goes into the oncoming traffic lane. I decided to stay in my lane but to match his spead and even try and pass him around the corner. Only thing is his lane is not off camber and mine is really bad about half way throught it. So I go into the turn about around 60-65mph and half way through the turn the back end kicks out. I was not expecting it and automatically began to counter steer to keep the car going straight. I was king of fun but scary at the same time since this was the first time I found the limits of the car. The car came back to sorts and straightend out very easily. So fyi beware of off camber turns.
The next time this kind of happened was on a semi wet road. I had some guy tailling me so I was driving faster than I normally would on a wet road. I came into a sweeping right hand turn not really fast but faster than I normally would and the back end did a big twitch. It came out really fast but grabbed traction a second later. That was a little scary. For anyone who has the Hotchkis sway bars I would drive really slow in rain, especially with the stock tires. If my car is that twitchy with the TRD setup it could be really sketchy with something thats has 200% stiffer sway bars or what ever it is. In total I would sum up the cars handleing as semi sporty. It's farily heavy and still has a lot of body roll compared to my old Integra with all its suspension mods, but I still enjoy the Tc as my daily driver.

ok bajamike, sorry but, that entire post is just retarded on your and the other driver's accounts. hope you were kidding.

ok bajamike, sorry but, that entire post is just retarded on your and the other driver's accounts. hope you were kidding.
Sure buddy. What ever you say. We're all kidding.

ok bajamike, if you need me to elaborate i shall.

1. guy 'cuts you off', therefore you tail him, guy pulls into INCOMING traffic lane, you HOLD HIM OUT and almost lose it.

2. road wet, someone tailing you, so you SPEED UP and almost lose it.

on a serious note, did you lift throttle or brake in any of the turns? that is what this thread is actually about, not you doing something dumb and living to tell about it.

Read on some online review that the tC rear end tends to kick out if you lift throttle exiting a fast sweeping turn. Anyone care to comment on their experiences with this? I got the trd rear sway bar and it is on 'street' for now until I get more info. Thanks.

could that be the reason why my car spun out on an off ramp and i crashed into the guard rail 3 times and totaled my car? and no lie i was goin 30 mph.

Read on some online review that the tC rear end tends to kick out if you lift throttle exiting a fast sweeping turn. Anyone care to comment on their experiences with this? I got the trd rear sway bar and it is on 'street' for now until I get more info. Thanks.

could that be the reason why my car spun out on an off ramp and i crashed into the guard rail 3 times and totaled my car? and no lie i was goin 30 mph.

sorry to hear that, hope you are okay. do you have the trd sway set to race and did you lift throttle or brake later than you should have? i know it is hard to think back to what you did, but if so then that may explain at least some of it.

On the first turn I just went into the corner a little to fast and did let off the gas. The combination of that and the off camber turn really unweighted the car causing backend to come loose. In the rain I was not even going very fast and again let of the gas halfway through the corner which again unsettled the car. The reason for my story was not to for showing off but to inform other drivers that this car can be a handful if you don't know what you are doing. There are a bunch of young drivers that own this car and they are doing suspension mods thinking this car will handle like a Porsche. They also probably have less than 4 or 5 years driving experience under their belt. Combine both these factors and you have a recipe for distaster. By sharing my expierences of pushing the car to the limits hopefully they will know that they will know not to drive like that.

thanks mike for clearing that up, i do appreciate your input.

i agree that for a 'first car' the tC is engineered rather strangely for the typical oversteer inexperienced driver (myself included). and about 'handling like a porsche' there was some discussion about a model from a while ago that was also 'plagued' by lift throttle oversteer...searching...older 911's i believe 'suffered' from unavoidable oversteer:

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=45154&highlight=porsche+lift+throttle

at least we aren't THAT bad ;) but maybe you should set your bar to 'street' during rainy season :P i still have my bar set to street and haven't swung out yet (and i've tried braking and turning when nobody and nothing is around going ~40mph, albeit on dry pavement).

about the hotchkis bars, yes the rear is a lot stiffer than the trd but the front is also stiffer so it may be possible to find a good balance with that setup. haven't read anything definitive on that yet, but it may be on here somewhere...

By sharing my expierences of pushing the car to the limits hopefully they will know that they will know not to drive like that.

[mini-rant]
You're still a tool.

Yes. I'll be "that guy."

Take the car to an AutoX or a track to push it. NOT A PUBLIC ROAD. In the rain. Around a corner. With a car next to you. Into oncoming traffic.

I'll say it again: Tool.

I'll chalk up your "story" to stupidity and inability to drive a car under control on public roads.
Please post a warning anytime you intend on traveling through SEPA. Thank you.
[/mini-rant]

On the track the tC definitley is more likely to understeer rather than oversteer. The rear wheels stay planted though the suspension gives so much that the assend feels like it's stepping out. Too much body roll in the rear. A better sway and better spings/coil-overs will qwell this and make the car more neutral.

[mini-rant]
...
[/mini-rant]

On the track the tC definitley is more likely to understeer rather than oversteer. The rear wheels stay planted though the suspension gives so much that the assend feels like it's stepping out. Too much body roll in the rear. A better sway and better spings/coil-overs will qwell this and make the car more neutral.

thanks for the support, he semi-redeemed himself by actually contributing what he did to make the rear end kick out.

I see you have the RS1, maybe your tires are better than the RE92's (though damn near ANY tire may be better than the RE92's) so your back end stays more planted. Or maybe it is the strut bar? :P Anyhow, do you have any suspension mods so we can get an idea of what helps what?

making the car 'more neutral' seems not to be the best idea for a daily driver since it goes from understeer to oversteer quite easily even in bone stock form and stiffening the sway bars would only worsen that. springs/shocks should help if done right, but that has already been discussed.

Read on some online review that the tC rear end tends to kick out if you lift throttle exiting a fast sweeping turn. Anyone care to comment on their experiences with this? I got the trd rear sway bar and it is on 'street' for now until I get more info. Thanks.

could that be the reason why my car spun out on an off ramp and i crashed into the guard rail 3 times and totaled my car? and no lie i was goin 30 mph.

sorry to hear that, hope you are okay. do you have the trd sway set to race and did you lift throttle or brake later than you should have? i know it is hard to think back to what you did, but if so then that may explain at least some of it.

i didnt have any suspension upgrades. my suspension was bone stock. is this a defect with the car, like should i report this to someone because i know for a fact that the accident had nothing to do with my driving skills. im not going lie and say that i never speed. but i have gone off of off ramps doing around 60 before and no problems but the time i decide to take my time and go 30 around the ramp my car spins out on me?? doesnt make sense. should i have someone look at my car so that maybe instead of insurance blaming the accident on me it could be a mechanical problem. or am i missing the point of this thread?

should i have someone look at my car so that maybe instead of insurance blaming the accident on me it could be a mechanical problem. or am i missing the point of this thread?

Most any good insurance company should investigate the vehicle failure angle and try to place blame on someone other than you so they can then collect from the manufacturerer rather than have to pay out them selves.

Anyhow, do you have any suspension mods so we can get an idea of what helps what?

making the car 'more neutral' seems not to be the best idea for a daily driver since it goes from understeer to oversteer quite easily even in bone stock form and stiffening the sway bars would only worsen that. springs/shocks should help if done right, but that has already been discussed.

No mods. CO's in the works (once JIC finishes the tC set-up I'll hopefully be in to be a tester[finger-crossed])

More neutral is exactly what I'm after for my daily driver. I can handle it. Driving schools—I should clarify that: Performance driving schools, autox, track days, learning to drive in an oversteer prone RD and years of good driving have taught me how to drive. I'd prefer to be a touch on the oversteer side for racing, but neutral is, well, more neutral—a nice compromise from the understeering FWD cars that are produced to assist the lowest common denominator that gets overly aggressive behind the wheel.

To sum it up:
Understeer=good
Oversteer=better
Neutral=best (at least as a daily driver on surface streets in a semi-urban area with occasional track day excursions)

dave,

only thing that would be your fault is if you lifted throttle or braked at the turn exit. this would happen if you entered the turn too fast and had to brake/let off the gas to keep from going into the guard rail.

some factors beyond your control would be loose gravel, oil, or water on the road but if everyone else didn't spin out behind you that travelled the same line then there can only be so many possibilities...

about taking ramps @ 60 before, this car does not handle like other FWD 4-bangers and we are slowly seeing more and more reports of people getting in over their heads quite easily and abruptly. why you spun @ 30, i can't tell. there are a lot of variables to account for. heck even steering angle (yanking the wheel, for example) so hard to say.

More neutral is exactly what I'm after for my daily driver. I can handle it...I'd prefer to be a touch on the oversteer side for racing, but neutral is, well, more neutral—a nice compromise from the understeering FWD cars that are produced to assist the lowest common denominator that gets overly aggressive behind the wheel.

Generally, I agree with you. Problem is, the tC seems to be an anomaly. Getting an otherwise understeering FWD 60/40 biased car to oversteer bone stock when getting overly aggressive behind the wheel is not something someone without the training/experience that you have can just adapt to and easily bail themselves out of. Most people when they start to lose control will brake. Especially in a FWD car since 'that is what you should do'. To curb understeer. But in doing so, this car unloads the rear and oversteers, if only slightly which seems to have taken a few people on rides they weren't expecting.

"Most any good insurance company should investigate the vehicle failure angle and try to place blame on someone other than you so they can then collect from the manufacturerer rather than have to pay out them selves. "

I'd bet the insurance company only does that if they start to see a pattern of a lot of a similar claims on a particular vehicle. Even then, I bet its done in a really hush-hush way...

getting my insurance to look at the car... is that something i have to ask them to do? or will they do it automatically?

I would have to say, for a girl, i take corners and off-ramps a lot faster than most people and i have never had a problem. I have yoko tires tho, not stock. Eveyrthing else is what came with the car. Even in wet weather i have yet to have a problem.

I would have to say, for a girl, i take corners and off-ramps a lot faster than most people and i have never had a problem. I have yoko tires tho, not stock. Eveyrthing else is what came with the car. Even in wet weather i have yet to have a problem.
yup the RE92s seem to be a huge part of the problem. going to try some bfgoodrich KDW-NT's maybe when the stockers turn to slicks (well probably a lot before then if i value the rest of the car and my body ;P). plus if one doesn't lift throttle/brake then one shouldn't have the problem ;)

OK, was taking an off ramp (which is an on ramp to another freeway) and it is straight with a right handed sweeper (wide shoulder, slightly decreasing radius). I was going at it a little aggressively so I braked hard (not enough to hit ABS) on the straight part, then took the turn (still lightly braking). the rear end definately stepped out on me a little. As soon as I felt that I hwas past the apex so I throttled it out to keep from oversteering any more. One of those 'don't do again' moves but not quite 'OS moment'. Suspension is stock, RE92's (10k miles, rotated twice), TRD rear sway bar on 'street', dry road.

YES - THAT was the term that was used to describe my cars problem!

I put my TRD swaybar to street and it fixed it. If your swaybar is set stiff it can cause the shock to to compress enough and cause a high springrate and make it tail happy! I kept spinning my car high speed in slalom. Unstiffening the swaybar fixed it.

I dont' have adjustable shocks so that was my fix.

Its the Nature of FWD cars. During aggressive turns. Just letting off of the accelerator is the worst thing that you can do.

It is caused by engine braking in FWD vehicles.

When you let off the gas, because of engine braking, the front end slows down, but the rear end is still travelling at the same speed.. and sense you are turning it starts to slide out.

It is a FWD thing. Not so much rear wheel drive. It happens on rear wheel drives.. but for totally different reasons.

When you let off the accelerator in a rwd car. The rear wheels slow down and not the front wheels :P

If you really want to feel it just go around a corner at some high rpm levels until you feel slight understeer then let off of the throttle and no bueno after that its happend to me twice just make sure you got those jackie chan hands when u counter steer!

I have my front tires 5psi higher than rear, might add 2-3 psi to the rears or even switch them so the rears have 2-3 more than front and see if that helps.

my only over-steer incident resulted from too much armor-all on the sidewalls....the rear end came, went, and continued going out till i had to turn back sharply, where it finally planted(this was at like 40 MPH)....

need less to say, armor-all goes on light now....

otherwise, i only notice understeer, unless u hit the e-brake(not a suggestion)

Are you guys actually concerned that you'll lose control of your car on an offramp due to oversteer?

ok, tried it again today, without any armor-all...

i have an auto, so engine braking is less, but i did notice when i was taking a turn that was about 270degrees(turns around, plus 90deg) if i let off the gas whenit was in a lower gear, the rear end would want to go out...nothing i couldn't control, i am used to slippery RWD, so oversteer is no prob for me..sometimes...

but yeah, i have a bone bone stock car susp wise, aside from a spoiler, which doesnt do much at 30 mph

Are you guys actually concerned that you'll lose control of your car on an offramp due to oversteer?

hehe, I came from an 85 civic hb and no matter what you did, short of pulling the ebrake, you couldn't get that car to rotate bone stock. the tC, however, is an interesting animal as you can experience oversteer, unexpectedly and quite abruptly, if you do something stupid even if it is in reaction to an unknown situation. the old school thought of FWD=understeer is valid only while on the throttle as once you let off you'd better be pointed relatively straight or you might get some kickout that you weren't counting on.

I experienced oversteer recently, nothing that caused me to spin out or slam into the wall, but there is no warning when it will happen - it just snaps out.

05 auto, trd rear sway bar on 'street', RE92s

my vehicle before last(first one) was a 92 s-10, that i dropped 4 inches. it only had a 2.8l v6, but it would go pretty quick, b/c it had no rev or speed limiter

it rode rough, but thats because the back end had 1 inch of susspension travel, unloaded(non with a small bicycle in the back), but it handled like a dream.......only thing stopping it were the all-terrain tires(i was dating girls in rural areas then...the tC barely sees gravel now that i'm single)

sorry, was remeniscing

Are you guys actually concerned that you'll lose control of your car on an offramp due to oversteer?

Quite a few people have wrecked their tC due to the problem, and for everyone willing to admit that's how it happened, there's another 5 saying that it is wasn't their fault but some sort of design flaw.

First time your car gets going sideways, with no warning, and at a high yaw rate, you'll be "concerned" too.

If the tC transmitted plenty of warning that it was near traction limits, that would be one thing, but the fact that it oversteers (and understeers) with almost no warning comes as a surprise to those whose previous driving experience was in more forgiving vehicles.

The best 'cure' that people seem to have come up with is to get stickier tires and/or change springs and shocks/struts. Leave the sway bar modifications for later once you have a feel for the limits by doing either or both of those.

The design 'flaw' seems to be more so of a design 'side effect', and the fact that the initial reviewers of the car point it out shows that it is not a subtle one.

This is no flaw... Its pushing the limits... If you do not panic you can get a nice 4 wheel drift out of it and keep on going.

personally i still dont see a problem..i just tried on an old country road(its like 12 midnight here, so no traffic) and i didnt notice it, but as mentioned before, it only seems to be a manual problem....i notice the rear end seems to go out if i hit the brakes, but thats the only time...nothing severe enough to cause a wreck(even at 50 MPH)

personally i still dont see a problem..i just tried on an old country road(its like 12 midnight here, so no traffic) and i didnt notice it, but as mentioned before, it only seems to be a manual problem....i notice the rear end seems to go out if i hit the brakes, but thats the only time...nothing severe enough to cause a wreck(even at 50 MPH)

not sure what you mean by 'it only seems to be a manual problem'. do you mean manual transmission? i have auto and i slid (but i also have trd rear sway). manual would conceivably be worse.

if you are going in a straight line and brake hard the rear becomes very unloaded. people (even with trd shocks/spring) have noticed this behavior at the track. the slightest twitch of the steering wheel in that situation could be quite a handful.

if you are entering a turn at 50mph, or any speed fast enough to induce understeer, then let off the throttle while still in the turn, that may also be quite a handful. people have lost control/wrecked their cars going 30-40 mph.

bottom line is that people have to know that the oversteer possibility is there (and that there is no warning) and how to handle it if it happens (wide shoulder and 4-wheel slide), or try not to make it happen in the first place (slow in, fast out). bigred pointed out that with the rs1 package she has yet to get the car to behave badly. she has the strut bar and the yokohama tires so either or both has greatly increased the stability of the car (i'm gonna put my money on the tires, although the strut bar could stiffen the front a smidge promoting the tiniest bit more understeer).

this topic isn't meant to say that our cars are unsafe, or flawed, or have a problem, just different from 'conventional' thinking about $16k 4-cyl FWD econocars.

i agree, the tires for stock are good, but pulling that move and expecting STOCK tires to help? that's laughable! Want to drive like that, you better put your faith in much better tires. (aka STICKIER tires).. and the move about the rear sway bar? too stiff, that back end will come around and say HELLO.. and not be nice about it.. lol :P