I'm looking for a true rear sway bar.

The Hotchkis and Progress rear "sway" bars are actually a rear beam axle stiffeners.

In order for a rear "sway" bar to function properly, it should be mounted to the frame AND rear suspension. And has end links w/ bushings. Adjustablity would be a plus. Reasonable cost is no object either.

Sure a bit of body roll will be reduced with rear axle stiffners, BUT those bars are tied into the rear axle ONLY, and not to the frame.

But then again, what do I know? Nothing according to some.

Please stay on topic. :shock: :wink:

Whiteline makes a rear sway bar for the Echo.

Brian has one on his Echo
http://groups.msn.com/Sorensonbrian/underconstruction.msnw

I haven't looked at the rear suspension in my xA, but that's the bar I wanted a few months back...

I have not seen one anywhere. If you find one, please let us know.

Most, as you mentioned, only stiffen the rear axle section. But none I have seen connect to the body or subframe.

Mike,

THANKS!

The Whiteline set-up looks like it does the same as the Progress or Hotchkis bar. Also, the xB has a bar running the lwidth of the rear beam, and I'm not sure if it'll fit.

I'm looking for a set-up that will tie in the rear beam and the car's frame.

I remember someone putting the whiteline on the xB. that doesn't mean it's happened, only that I remember it :)

how about the cusco one http://optionimports.com/134-311-va28.html I am allso looking for some kind of set up and this bare is the one I like

how about the cusco one http://optionimports.com/134-311-va28.html I am allso looking for some kind of set up and this bare is the one I like



I take it you didnt read it closely huh???

It says FRONT

^^^^^^^^^^
lol. i'm surprised no one has come out with one. maybe the addition of a stiffening bar is enought for these chassis's hmmm.

how about the cusco one http://optionimports.com/134-311-va28.html I am allso looking for some kind of set up and this bare is the one I like

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That's a front sway bar, and I know someone who has that one installed already, but I'm looking for a true REAR sway bar, not a rear axle/beam stiffner.

I guess one doesn't exist, yet.

If one exists, it would be in the Japanese market by now. If *they* don't have one..............don't think we would get one.

If one exists, it would be in the Japanese market by now. If *they* don't have one..............don't think we would get one.

I guess you didn't read my previous post directly above yours.

I have YET to find one, but I know enuff race car fab shops and chassis engineers to get one fab'd.

it weems like overkill, since the stock rear sway bar is already center mounted. I mean by adding the hotchkis rear bar on top of the stck bar gives you the mounting to the center and to the sides. i have nearly no sway with the hotchkis. its the simplest mod with the most change to me. the original stock sway is already mounted, why would you want to take it off.?

it weems like overkill, since the stock rear sway bar is already center mounted. I mean by adding the hotchkis rear bar on top of the stck bar gives you the mounting to the center and to the sides. i have nearly no sway with the hotchkis. its the simplest mod with the most change to me. the original stock sway is already mounted, why would you want to take it off.?

It is not a sway bar, it is a rear beam stiffner. Proper sway bars mount to the axle AND frame. You will still have body roll because there is nothing tying the axle to the frame of the car. Shocks and springs do not count.

If you seriously think the Hotchkis rear axle stiffner is reducing that much body roll, then how come I can bend it? Sway bars should not be able to flex as the rear Hotchkis piece does.

The Progress rear bar is beefier and will withstand the flexing better, but I';m looking for a true rear sway bar.

The OEM bar is welded to the inside of the rear beam axle.

What is needed is a panhard rod and swaybar combo. That would stabilize the rear axle and reduce body roll at the same time.

Just throwing this out for consideration (I have no idea if this would do the trick). Would running the TRD rear frame brace (for the Echo), in conjunction with the Progress "sway" be a consideration? I have the Progress installed and have been very happy with the results. The Echo rear frame brace has been sitting on my living room floor for like two months now and I haven't gotten a chance to get it hooked up. I'm thinking that to really do it in a way that makes me comfortable, I will have to get some spot welds in the mounting locations. While the brace fits perfectly, there are no mounting holes for it on the xB. The Echo brace does mount on the axle and to the frame (although further towards the center of the car). Anyways, I haven't gotten an update from some of the guys who are running the Echo brace, but it seems like it (in conjunction with a beefy "rear axle stiffener" like Progress) might be what you are looking for without having to get custom fabrication. Below is a picture of the instructions (in Japanese) of the Echo frame brace. Not sure how the picture will come out, but it shows the mounting locations at the axle and on the frame.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/avatar_99/Echobrace1.jpg

I was going to say... this is the closest thing I have done... it works with the Hotchkis bar...

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SAA0A*QUw!pelEGznjDn2JCqChyF5kHpbBm7A4LV5j1QQK2RjUPjGjm5C795NkA!*hNNQvcl2Z5NthLiW0vaPso6vG4TlloWjJnNYPZlyycvAAAAynKoAg/R%20Brace1.jpg
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SAA0A*UUAOtelEGznjDn2K2!Nhsb8YYlJN7sQ295PWfvRNlY0t98NuconqcJup0ydaDN2nRe17H3f*QCT1q!w7HuRIxWDzkJJTe8whB6hR1LAAAAynKoAg/R%20Brace2.jpg
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SAAjY*YUPetelEGznjDn2NE5dfCaeaVZ!ElCwbdvdtHk2imMfsiXvGw3BcPpxNFwarxRxJSmlIuyhmPGF8avRpj3ZMsW6yJmxr0TQOsgANJFACAANgAuAA/R%20Brace3.jpg
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SAAAAPcUeutelEGznjDn2DQPosh6lOtayIz94ffcZmf58u9LnrLl6LbY8LtEsda1y*Stcz5oNsx1SdlE7KMlGpzRj9UBylUmUM7wvRnV6iYAAAAAAAAAAA/R%20Brace4.jpg

I must say that I installed the Progressive "sway" bar and I could immediately feel the results. It corners much flatter and handling is pretty neutral (way less understeer). I haven't tried pushing the car to the absolute limits or any panic moves (hard braking in corners) to see if the car tends to oversteer into a spin, but for most people, this upgrade will definately put a smile on your face. Of all my upgrades (wheels, tires, springs, strut bar, rear sway), this upgrade had a noticeable improvement with no drawbacks. I recommend it for all.

I'm not knocking either Hotchkis or Progressive bars, but I can bend the Hotchkis bar, it flexes that much.

If I was to go only with what is available, I'd get the Progress rear bar. Which I do have, BTW, and the Hotchkis bar up front.

I just may have to go another route though. I do have a lead on the above mentioned brace.

i know how real sway bars work, but what and how does a rear beam axle stiffeners

actualy work

need to get me ed-u-ma-cated on that one

any one know?

i know how real sway bars work, but what and how does a rear beam axle stiffeners

actualy work

need to get me ed-u-ma-cated on that one

The rear axle beam stiffners prevent torsional twisting.

Ok ... I will give this a shot ....

The difference between the rear axle stiffener and chassis mounted sway bar is just the difference between the suspension travel and the axle, or the suspension travel and the chassis.

The "sway bar" simply tries to reduce the difference in travel from each side of the car. As the left side moves up, the torsion of the sway bar slows the upward movement and tries to move the right side up to reduce the torsion of the sway bar.

The axle mounted sway bar attempt to keep the torsion equal on both side of the car in relation to the axle. The axle may or may not be aligned with the chassis at any given time. The chassis mounted sway bar attempt to keep the torsion equal on both side of the car in relation to the chassis. This type of configuration also helps to keep the axle more aligned to the chassis. True axle alignment is done through a panhard rod configuration.

The front sway bar follows the same rules.

I hope this helps.

On a swinging beam rear axle like on the xB, an axle stiffener and a separately-mounted sway bar are functionally equivelent.

The only difference is that the axle stiffener passes its load to the stock axle pivots while the separately-mounted sway bar passes its load to separate pivots mounted to the chassis.

The separate sway bar might work a bit better due to reduction in flexing of the axle pivots, but the tradeoff is a great increase in complexity (four to six pivots added, versus zero for the stiffener).

My feeling is that a stronger stabilizing effect could be had with less weight and complexity by simply boxing in the existing crossmember with sheet metal. Of course, this wouldn't look nearly as kewl as a bunch of add-on hardware!

George

which would put less stress on the frame/body and suspension

Because the suspension IS NOT tied into the frame, per say, this produces the "body roll", and only a proper rear sway bar can do this. Not a beam stiffner.

How would A real sway bar work on a xb would it work or would it be better to get rear Chassis Bar and a sort of beem stifener

i second that inquisition

My feeling is that a stronger stabilizing effect could be had with less weight and complexity by simply boxing in the existing crossmember with sheet metal. Of course, this wouldn't look nearly as kewl as a bunch of add-on hardware!

George
Exactly. Race shops have been doing this for years to torsion beam axle VW's. It works very well... Shine Racing Service even has a beam stiffener that bolts inside a VW's rear beam... no end links, nothing showing off. It's a great piece. I still prefer welding though.

hmmm , i never would of even guessed. to weld it in... hmm

why would you want a hollow tube for a front sway bar?

makes no sence to me

Here is an article that our engineer wrote about the hollow vs. solid sway bars.

http://www.hotchkistuning.com/bin/Misc/HollowSwayTech-D.pdf

Hope this helps you out.

Ok, I was under the xB on saturday, looking and taking some measurements. I now know why there isn't a true rear sway bar.

One of the reason, the frame is too far away from the rear beam to be effective. The distance would kill any effectiveness. To be effective, it will add way too much weight to the car. And one of the big reasons, the gas tank is also in the way.

i just ordered my Progress Technology Rear Anti-Roll Bar/beam stiffener can't wait till i get it and install it

I guess the plan woul be to get the progress rear and box the rear beam , anyone know of a shop that would box it in?

i don't think boxing the rear would be a good choice...
you would have to box the whole thing, including around the corners.
if you did not box the whole thing it would get stress cracks at the end of the boxed in area....
boxing it in would virtually make it unbendable...not good for handling. it does need to flex some...

i'm keeping it simple on a budget here :|

i don't think boxing the rear would be a good choice...
you would have to box the whole thing, including around the corners.
if you did not box the whole thing it would get stress cracks at the end of the boxed in area....
boxing it in would virtually make it unbendable...not good for handling. it does need to flex some...Yeah but if it's a common vw/porsche thing it cant be too bad , I have to read up and get more info , I'll be checking some veedub/porsche sites tonight I will chime in again once I have been enlightened.

i'm trying to remember my VW 's...
i think the VW is a smaller axle. so it might suit that better....

our rear beam has a pretty wide opening...boxing that in might be too much....

please check and let us know...

I agree, boxing the xB rear beam would make it too rigid, and who knows what problems w/ fatigue on other parts of the car it will effect.

The only real solution, remove spare tire and add a nice 15 gallon fuel cell in the rear area, and add a four link rear suspension.

I agree, boxing the xB rear beam would make it too rigid, and who knows what problems w/ fatigue on other parts of the car it will effect.

The only real solution, remove spare tire and add a nice 15 gallon fuel cell in the rear area, and add a four link rear suspension.

i like that idea.....
but make it a 20 gallon and a true 4-link not a 4-bar setup...

thats a good mod...

hell yeah i'm all about the 20 gallon fuel cell more distance on per tank of gas >:)

too much damn work for me , lol

Ok. Lets look at what an anti-sway bar is supposed to do.

First and foremost reduce body sway.

Second, do so without negatively affecting suspension travel.

So how does it do both?

First it connects the left and right suspensions with a torsion bar. (For those of you who don’t know, a torsion bar is just a straightened out coil spring) When cornering, the side which is on the outside of the corner is compressed, which pushes up on the lever connected to the torsion bar. At the same time, the opposite side is extended, which pulls down on the opposite lever. Since one side is pushing and the other pulling, the bar is twisted. This effectively increases the spring rate when cornering. But if both sides are compressed (when hitting a dip in the road for example) the bar simply turns in it’s mounts (on a “proper” frame mounted anti-sway bar) so it has no effect on spring rate.

On our wonderful boxes, the rear axle is basically a very crude form of independent suspension. While the left and right sides are connected by the beam. The U-shape and engineered in flex it allows, basically acts as two independent suspension assemblies. Stiffening this engineered in flex has the same effect as a “proper” anti-sway bar. While it does not leverage against the chassis to do this, it still has the proper effect (increasing the left to right spring rate differential, without affecting the ride by artificially increasing the spring rate in normal non cornering situations). This reduces body sway but allows for full travel, thus doing what it is an anti-sway bar is “supposed” to do.

The only benefit a “true” or “proper” anti-sway bar will give you is adjustability. This would be nice in many situations, but can be achieved with currently available suspension parts.

Boxing the beam would have the same effect as the available “stiffening bars” but most likely would make it way too stiff.

Remember that the majority of street cars out there are already way too stiff. Very often stiff feels fast, but isn’t necessarily so. Sliding thru a corner makes you look like a hero (at least in your own mind), but hitting the apex perfectly without a squeal is almost always faster.

Maybe the progress bar really is enough , well that and the trd echo piece.

add a four link rear suspension.

:clap:

we have a winner

Maybe the progress bar really is enough , well that and the trd echo piece.

as of right now...thats the best your going to do without going to a real independant suspension.

I've looked at it...and its not impossible but its not going to be cheap.

maybe someone can talk to these guys for us. I'd do it...but only if their was a real list of buyers.

http://www.chassisengineering.com/rearsuspension.html

fjcracker, you are my hero!!

I was going to post, "if a *proper* sway were better, then
why didn't TRD make one for us?".

What, you think they don't know how? If it doesn't exist, then
I'm sure there is a reason for it being that way. I think
fjcracker nailed it.

Ok. Lets look at what an anti-sway bar is supposed to do.

First and foremost reduce body sway.

Second, do so without negatively affecting suspension travel.

So how does it do both?

First it connects the left and right suspensions with a torsion bar. (For those of you who don’t know, a torsion bar is just a straightened out coil spring) When cornering, the side which is on the outside of the corner is compressed, which pushes up on the lever connected to the torsion bar. At the same time, the opposite side is extended, which pulls down on the opposite lever. Since one side is pushing and the other pulling, the bar is twisted. This effectively increases the spring rate when cornering. But if both sides are compressed (when hitting a dip in the road for example) the bar simply turns in it’s mounts (on a “proper” frame mounted anti-sway bar) so it has no effect on spring rate.

On our wonderful boxes, the rear axle is basically a very crude form of independent suspension. While the left and right sides are connected by the beam. The U-shape and engineered in flex it allows, basically acts as two independent suspension assemblies. Stiffening this engineered in flex has the same effect as a “proper” anti-sway bar. While it does not leverage against the chassis to do this, it still has the proper effect (increasing the left to right spring rate differential, without affecting the ride by artificially increasing the spring rate in normal non cornering situations). This reduces body sway but allows for full travel, thus doing what it is an anti-sway bar is “supposed” to do.

The only benefit a “true” or “proper” anti-sway bar will give you is adjustability. This would be nice in many situations, but can be achieved with currently available suspension parts.

Boxing the beam would have the same effect as the available “stiffening bars” but most likely would make it way too stiff.

Remember that the majority of street cars out there are already way too stiff. Very often stiff feels fast, but isn’t necessarily so. Sliding thru a corner makes you look like a hero (at least in your own mind), but hitting the apex perfectly without a squeal is almost always faster.

nice man. thanks for the info

For the guys that wanted to play around with boxing in the rear beam... You don't need to do the whole thing and make it solid, that's not what I meant. :doh:

... Just start with an 8" long piece in the center, and add width once per week until you find the setup you like. Or you can weld in tabs every couple inches instead... Any combination will work, until the desired effect is attained.

not doing the whole thing will cause stress cracks at the ends of the boxed in part....

body roll is so minimal anyway.

why not just make a heavier duty "rear axle torsion" bar?

are you autoXing or is this just for braggin rights?

well i just got my Progress Technology Rear Anti-Roll Bar/beam stiffener and it took me 30 minutes to install it too, can't really feel any difference in handling yet and i loc-tite nuts and bolts just for added safety

but this is a good mod to do if your on a budget :)

If you ever tried to corner hard with a stock XB, it is an plowing, understeering fool of a car. I think even worse with a front strut bar.

The substantial progressive rear sway bar reduces the roll, but more importantly reduces the understeer. Way more balanced (perhaps trickier at the limits). One of these days I'll have to test those limits. I need a good, empty parking lot.....

I need a good, empty parking lot.....Don't we all. lol. but yes stock xb plows like no other. nothing like a FF car with crappy rear suspension.

well i just got my Progress Technology Rear Anti-Roll Bar/beam stiffener and it took me 30 minutes to install it too, can't really feel any difference in handling yet and i loc-tite nuts and bolts just for added safety

but this is a good mod to do if your on a budget :)

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huh???

your confusing me here squirrel

well, i ordered the TRD rear brace system.. gonna give it a try, and if i like, i'll be selling my Hotchkis rear "sway" bar.

looking at that brace it has to be beneficial. i'm having something made up soon. info to come

well, i ordered the TRD rear brace system.. gonna give it a try, and if i like, i'll be selling my Hotchkis rear "sway" bar.

Why would you sell the rear Hotchkis bar? Don't those two (the Hotchkis and the TRD brace) work in conjunction? I heard they compliment each other well.

like i said.. :0 we'll find out.. i have 3 weeks to the next autoX to test.. i want another damn trophy lol

I'm looking for a true rear sway bar.

The Hotchkis and Progress rear "sway" bars are actually a rear beam axle stiffeners.

In order for a rear "sway" bar to function properly, it should be mounted to the frame AND rear suspension. And has end links w/ bushings. Adjustablity would be a plus. Reasonable cost is no object either.

Sure a bit of body roll will be reduced with rear axle stiffners, BUT those bars are tied into the rear axle ONLY, and not to the frame.

But then again, what do I know? Nothing according to some.

Please stay on topic. :shock: :wink:

Wrong. The rear "axle" is a Torsion Beam. Look up how Torsion Beams work and you will understand that Hotchkins and Progress sway bars really are sway bars.

A torsion beam incorporates the functionality of a sway bar. You can even think of it as just a big sway bar with the rear wheels attached.

Aftermarket sway bars just make the spring constant of the torsion beam greater whether they bolt directly to the torsion beam or have their own set of pivots, Heim joints, etc.

Background: 4-wheel independent suspension used to be the ultimate goal, but when it was achieved it was found that cars so equipped rolled badly in corners.

The fix was to incorporate a torsion bar linking the two sides of the suspension, making them work somewhat together, which limited the roll. Most of these bars were installed on the front suspension, although some cars like VW bugs had them on the rear as well. My '68 Chevy pickup had front and rear sway bars stock from the factory!

As auto manufacturers went to FWD with the VW Rabbit/Golf, it was far cheaper to incorporate the functions of suspension and torsion bar into one part, the full-width torsion beam rear axle. Doing this reduced the parts count markedly and made the car much cheaper to produce. For most applications, the torsion beam axle is adequate, with the flexibility of the axle mimicing a true IRS rear end and the stiffness doing a good job of mimicing a sway bar.

George

Just so you know, the rear axle acts as a sway bar itself since it is directly attached to the frame as well. Adding the sway bar just stiffens it further. The way it is designed, it functions as a semi-independant suspension. Since it flexes, it is unlike a rigid axle rear end, but acts like an independant suspension with a sway bar built in to the design.

I would NOT recommend adding an additional rear sway bar unless you add additional stiffening to the front end as well. Otherwise you will increase the overall oversteer, and could create a massive amount of trailing throttle oversteer which could easily spin the car out if you are pushing to the limit through a turn and take your foot off the gas quickly.

The car is actually pretty well balanced with just a touch of understeer. Always increase stiffness at both ends and equally.

Johncal

BTW, George knows the deal.

Johncal

I'm looking for a true rear sway bar.

The Hotchkis and Progress rear "sway" bars are actually a rear beam axle stiffeners.

In order for a rear "sway" bar to function properly, it should be mounted to the frame AND rear suspension. And has end links w/ bushings. Adjustablity would be a plus. Reasonable cost is no object either.

Sure a bit of body roll will be reduced with rear axle stiffners, BUT those bars are tied into the rear axle ONLY, and not to the frame.

But then again, what do I know? Nothing according to some.

Please stay on topic. :shock: :wink:

Wrong. The rear "axle" is a Torsion Beam. Look up how Torsion Beams work and you will understand that Hotchkins and Progress sway bars really are sway bars.

did you seriously quote a post 11 months old to tell someone he's wrong while there is already plenty of information in this thread. :blah:

....I would NOT recommend adding an additional rear sway bar unless you add additional stiffening to the front end as well. Otherwise you will increase the overall oversteer, and could create a massive amount of trailing throttle oversteer which could easily spin the car out if you are pushing to the limit through a turn and take your foot off the gas quickly.....

i'm sorry, but i have to disagree here. i added the progress rear sway, and the handling became more neutral. while adding a front sway would have increased stiffness, it would also increase understeer. once i switched the progress to a whiteline, it was wwonderful. handling was great, and if i wasn't a suspension guy, i would've left it at that. it is perfect for the everyday spirited driver. unless you keep adding stiffening to the rear, you don't need to change out the front sway, just upgrade the bushings. you can, but it won't give you the neutral handling you should be looking for.

why is body roll such a grave concearn
why do you want to limit your stroke this way
if your springrates and shock vavling are set right
you should not need a sway bar
remember that weight transfer is important
and limiting suspension travel can be bad

swaybars (IMHO) are a band aid for improper spring/ride height tuning

Just so you know, the rear axle acts as a sway bar itself since it is directly attached to the frame as well. Adding the sway bar just stiffens it further. The way it is designed, it functions as a semi-independant suspension. Since it flexes, it is unlike a rigid axle rear end, but acts like an independant suspension with a sway bar built in to the design.

I would NOT recommend adding an additional rear sway bar unless you add additional stiffening to the front end as well. Otherwise you will increase the overall oversteer, and could create a massive amount of trailing throttle oversteer which could easily spin the car out if you are pushing to the limit through a turn and take your foot off the gas quickly.

The car is actually pretty well balanced with just a touch of understeer. Always increase stiffness at both ends and equally.

Johncal

I disagree with you. Many people who are into serious handling and autocross run no front bar and run a rear sway alone. The Hotchkis setup I had on my 02 celica was like 40% stiffer in front and twice that in the rear over stock. That car would outhandle almost anything.
It all varies from car to car of course, but most people who know how to drive know that a little oversteer is what you want. Youd never want understeer.