RANT WARNING ALERT

We’re close to buying and getting a bit inundated with phoning salespeople. Yes, when my wife Barbara checked out dealers – there are a bunch around here -- she didn’t have to give them our phone number, or ask them to add up the bottom line (cash purchase of new base xB, no trade-in, no extras, plus Pennsylvania tax and new tags), or tell then the last dealer’s price. However, she did and the results are a bit interesting in light of Pure Price.

We already have heard one phone call on our answering machine (Faulkner Scion, Trevose, PA) lowering a written price by $22 – they say they will do this by waiving the web fee, which is interesting because their site fails to mention this fee. Another dealer is calling the house asking what he can do to earn our business. Uh, why don’t you lower the price for everybody? I assure you I will notice.

Our 12 year old: Dad, are you going to buy the car from the man we promised we would buy it from? Me: That’s his memory, mine is that we didn’t make that promise. Comment for my readers here: And the fellow who said we promised is NOT the worst!

Let’s think this through. Why is it that every dealer has the same posted price, even though the Scion Covenant clearly allows each dealer to set his own prices? Shouldn’t some dealers by now be lowering their prices a bit so they can sell their allocation more asily and, hopefully, get a higher allocation? Apparently they don’t have to because, at least some of them, are undercutting the competition with the old check-with-the-manager tricks. This isn’t a matter of $20 here and there. So long as they can get away with reducing prices a bit for the minority of buyers who don’t accept Pure Price without testing dealer commitment, the entire process of open price competition will not start. Once it does start, prices will fall by hundreds. High rent district, or otherwise inefficient, dealers which can’t make a profit at the true market price resulting from ruthless competition might have to drop the Scion line, but they still could service Scions, so this would be no real loss for us.

There are some dealers who are honestly competing by offering free extras, like free service items on top of the 3 oil changes which Scion mandates. I even found one dealer on the web, Walser Scion in Minnesota, that gives discounted gasoline. However, we don’t like near any of those dealers.

One of the main initial attractions to me of Scion was that idea that I won’t feel other people with better negotiating skills got a lower price. But surely some will. Barbara is suggesting we should hold out for an extra keyless entry (retail $85) since we lose things so much. Maybe we won’t get it. But somewhere there is probably someone else, with better negotiating skills, who got that and more.

Is it beyond human nature for commissioned salespeople to stick to a posted price plus tax and the tag fee sent to the state DMV, without adding unposted nuisance fees, without haggling, and without calling? No. Barbara used to sell sewing machines, including some I found amazingly expensive, in a store where they posted low prices and, unlike the competition, never haggled. She had to explain to customers that, unlike the other stores, they always sold at posted prices. Some walked away to test her seriousness, and then came back, even though she did not telephone them to see whether they had possibly forgotten their desire to buy a sewing machine. This was a smart move on her customers' part, since most sellers of big ticket item do resist haggling at first, and then do it. Their true pure low price policy did not stop Barbara or the store generally from selling a lot of machines.

I've done my share of "power bargaining" over the years for new cars. I usually go in with all my figures set up, and have a range that I'm willing to pay. More recently, I've purchased vehicles with "fixed prices".... Mini Cooper and Scion xB.

With a fixed price or "Pure Price", it makes it easier to decide whether or not I will end up purchasing the car. I can make the decision based on the sticker.... the way it SHOULD be.

The xB is worth to me what I paid for it. Will I get upset or annoyed if I were to find out that someone was able to haggle and get a set of free floormats? Nope. Or if someone managed to pay $200 less? Nope... that's only 1.5% of the purchase price.

When I buy a car, and my xB experience was no different, I state up-front that I want the bottom-line price... all fees etc. included before I'll agree or sign anything.

When I bought my xB (just last week), I went in to the dealership, test drove an auto and manual xB, told them what I wanted... and they gave me the price. I had driven up with my trade-in so they took the info and gave me a price for it. (Extremely generous I might add) Everything went smooth as silk.... no glitches, no hidden fees, no attempts to squeeze more out of the deal. And they had exactly what I wanted on the lot.

Car salesmen are like sharks... they smell blood... they smell fear.... they smell insecurity. If you give the salesman the impression that you don't know what you're doing or that you can be manipulated, they'll take advantage of the situation. It doesn't matter what car they're selling.... it's the nature of the beast.

So long as they can get away with reducing prices a bit for the minority of buyers who don’t accept Pure Price without testing dealer commitment, the entire process of open price competition will not start. Once it does start, prices will fall by hundreds

That assumes there is hundreds of dollars of "slack" between what the dealership paid for the car and what they retail it for. There may indeed be hundreds of Gross Margin dollars in there, but the dealer's overhead has to come out of it.

And if prices did fall by hundreds through negotiation, you may as well throw away the whole idea of pure price. On the one hand you're griping about pure price not being followed closely enough by the dealers, and on the other your wanting to chuck the idea of pure price? Nothing like trying to have your cake and eat it too, I guess.

If you are this worked up about the salesmen, wait until you get to the finance guy...

That assumes there is hundreds of dollars of "slack" between what the dealership paid for the car and what they retail it for.
I know from reading this board that there is about $1,000 + nuisance fees as the margin on each base model car, with greater margin when there is any option or customization taken. Until there is real competition, as opposed to every dealer coincidentally posting the same basic prices, we will never know how low they can go. Even the dealers don’t know, because, in face of real blistering competition, they would have to take creative actions to wring out costs. In the current environment, no one is doing that creative thinking. Could someone sell five times as many cars and make ten percent more profit if they halved that margin? No one knows, because no one has tried, because no one has had to try, because the few dealers who are in the vanguard of lowering prices find they can do it for selected customers only. This is what prevents the whole price competition thing from getting started.

Opportunities for greater retail efficiency? Certainly there are . Otherwise they wouldn't have slack staff time to telephone potential customers. Otherwise I wouldn't have an email in my inbox, from a dealer I may buy from and thus will not name, stating: "I will do whatever I have to in order to make sure that the time we have spent earns us/me the deal in the end." (No time really except my wife went for a test drive there 4-5 months ago.)

In other parts of the retail sector, there are great differences in efficiency between different sellers, opening up a range of opportunities for competition. Department stores teetered on the brink of bankruptcy while Sam Walton, selling for less, became one of the world’s richest men. It just beggars belief that the way Scions (forget about Toyotas) are sold is the most efficient possible.

Consider the fact that Scion of Manhattan sells for basically the same price as dealers in distant Pennsylvania suburbs of Philadelphia, where land, housing, and the cost of living generally is far less. Looking at the web site of San Francisco Scion, where housing costs are even worse than in metro New York, they claim to charge MSRP plus a $45 doc fee, lower than any dealer around here (suburban Philadelphia). Obviously our dealers would be able to beat out those in Silicon Valley – if only they had to.

And if prices did fall by hundreds through negotiation, you may as well throw away the whole idea of pure price.
Sorry, you did not get the point. Negotiation is what keeps prices HIGH. With negotiation, they can lower the price for the few sharp negotiators, gaining those sales, while keeping the price high for everybody else. I’ve read on this very board a salesman saying that Scions offer less commission than Toyotas but are an easier sale. So Pure Price with limited negotiation is already helping to make for lower prices and more retail efficiency – I’m just saying that there is a way to go.

On the one hand you're griping about pure price not being followed closely enough by the dealers, and on the other your wanting to chuck the idea of pure price?
No, as I said before, I hate haggling because I think I am bad at it. Quite possibly we will get a case of new car fever and buy for preferred color in stock at a dealer who refuses to haggle. Of course, unless you walk away, leaving your phone number, and come back a few times, there is no way to know for sure that they refuse to further haggle. This is the yucky part that most Americans think they are good at, but aren’t. Now me, I know I’m bad at it.

Is more money being left on the table on the Toyota side of the house than on the Scion? Probably. But every buyer should be highly suspicious when Toyota lets each Scion dealer post its own price and then they all post the same.

If you are this worked up about the salesmen, wait until you get to the finance guy...Cash sale. But worked up? Na, I’m just not into cheerleading.

No, as I said before, I hate haggling because I think I am bad at it. Quite possibly we will get a case of new car fever and buy for preferred color in stock at a dealer who refuses to haggle. Of course, unless you walk away, leaving your phone number, and come back a few times, there is no way to know for sure that they refuse to further haggle. This is the yucky part that most Americans think they are good at, but aren’t. Now me, I know I’m bad at it.
I guess the question that I have is, "why does it bother you so much that others may be paying less than you?"

Sorry, you did not get the point. Negotiation is what keeps prices HIGH. With negotiation, they can lower the price for the few sharp negotiators, gaining those sales, while keeping the price high for everybody else. I’ve read on this very board a salesman saying that Scions offer less commission than Toyotas

If negotiation is keeping prices high, why are you negotiating? Just use whatever dealer gives you the lowest fees and the best value on your trade-in and be done with it. I feel sorry for whatever salesman has to deal with you - sorting out your contradictions is tough.

Most of the margin is in the options, I agree with that much.

No, as I said before, I hate haggling because I think I am bad at it. Quite possibly we will get a case of new car fever and buy for preferred color in stock at a dealer who refuses to haggle. Of course, unless you walk away, leaving your phone number, and come back a few times, there is no way to know for sure that they refuse to further haggle. This is the yucky part that most Americans think they are good at, but aren’t. Now me, I know I’m bad at it.
I guess the question that I have is, "why does it bother you so much that others may be paying less than you?"

X2

Just e-mail the local dealers with what you want, find out price of car including options and taxes/fees and approx. wait times. Make your decision and be done with it.

Give the people a good car at a good price and let the _____ing begin. The old adage " you can't please everyone" was never more true. Make sure you get a TC so you can get more miles per _____ (MPB). :lol:

I feel sorry for whatever salesman has to deal with you - sorting out your contradictions is tough.Na, I'm a puppy-dog.

I started this thread to talk about a Scion policy issue -- the lack of significant open price competition between dealers. Presumably people who read this thread are interested in questions of how Scion dealers operate, apart from their personal financial interest. I wouldn't try to tell a dealer how to run his franchise in person, but any reading here, are, one hopes, interested in that kind of stuff. Otherwise, they would have skipped this thread based on topic, no?

Give the people a good car at a good price and let the _____ing begin.
The price is good compared to what it would be if there was no Pure Price. I'm just explaining how we can get more of that good thing. If semi-Pure Price is good, Pure Price is excellent.

I think both cheerleaders and _____ers have their place in their world of ours, and on this site.

I feel sorry for whatever salesman has to deal with you - sorting out your contradictions is tough.Na, I'm a puppy-dog.

I started this thread to talk about a Scion policy issue -- the lack of significant open price competition between dealers. Presumably people who read this thread are interested in questions of how Scion dealers operate, apart from their personal financial interest. I wouldn't try to tell a dealer how to run his franchise in person, but any reading here, are, one hopes, interested in that kind of stuff. Otherwise, they would have skipped this thread based on topic, no?

actually, I clicked on this topic to read about someone crying over nothing. :(

Pure Pricing is a great thing. It makes set prices on the actual car and allows the dealer to charge whatever additional fees he may want e.g. delivery and handling. It too no more then 15 minutes for me to call all my dealerships within 2 hours and find out that one did not charge any additional fees. But the bottom line is. Even if you get charged every fee in the book compared to someone who didn't they only got what 500 bucks extra off you? On a car without pricing I know cars that range in the thousands. On a brand new Malibu my grandpa(the ignorant car buyer he is) traded in his 3 year old Diamante, 1 year old Elantra, and still payed money for the car. I can bet someone out there got it for thousands cheaper. But atleast with Scion you know this won't happen.

dunno, at my dealership i let everyone walk. if you don't believe me, fine, i'm not gonna argue with you. the price is set, at what we posted on the website and on the showroom floor. i have people trying to haggle something out all day. in LA (biggest car market in the US), people are just used to it. i live in a middle eastern dominant area too, and haggling is part of their culture. so, i lose a lot of deals because of this. there are only a handful of people, who will make a fuss, then come back to me when they find out that what i said was true.

oh, and the scions have about 650 dollars of markup from invoice to MSRP (not a 1000). so, if i sell you a base scion, without any accessories, thats what the dealership makes. minus inventory costs and paying out comissions. pure price is great, i think scion needs a better way of enforcing it though.

i was talking to the rep the other day, and he was telling me that scion is more concerned about selling cars right, then total units sold. they don't release unit numbers to the dealerships, so in general we don't know where we rank in our region, or nationally. whereas on the toyota side, we can look that up in the comp. he also said "there are dealerships that sell scions, and there are dealerships that sell scions right." i think they just have to figure out a better way to police the way dealerships are complying, and it will end up a very good thing.

Give the people a good car at a good price and let the _____ing begin.
The price is good compared to what it would be if there was no Pure Price. I'm just explaining how we can get more of that good thing. If semi-Pure Price is good, Pure Price is excellent.

I think both cheerleaders and _____ers have their place in their world of ours, and on this site.

You've lost me. I thought that I knew what you were complaining about, but now I'm not so sure. It first sounded like you were complaining that "Pure Price" wasn't so pure... that some people were able to get a better deal because of their negotiation skills. Now you are talking about "getting more of that good thing".

You started this thread complaining that some people may pay less than you because of their "superior" negotiation skills. Why does it bother you that someone may pay less than you?

You've lost me. I thought that I knew what you were complaining about, but now I'm not so sure.
That's because I change what I think after reading responses. It is also because I'm still figuring out what I think. Sorry if doing this in public annoys anyone. Really.

As far as the _____in' part is concerned, the post by uberscionofglendale (two posts up if nobody slips in while I am writing this) was, because more subtle, better -- at least if people read uberscionofglendale the way I do. The way I read uberscionofglendale is that, even if he or she can't prove it, it looks like he is losing sales to dealers, or maybe to just one dealer, who fails to follow the Scion covenant.

Why does it bother you that someone may pay less than you?

Human nature, friend. But it doesn't bother me a lot, and as my views, uh, evolve, that is not my main point. A better point is that dickering on price, by even a few dealers, discourages every other dealer from lowering its posted price. This is because lowering prices for everyone puts you at a competitive disadvantage against dealers who just lower prices for a select few. If I am wrong, how else can we explain the fact that the posted price by dealers in suburbs of Philadelphia, where land and the cost of living generally is fairly low, are exactly the same as prices charged by our friendly metro LA dealer, who has to face much higher costs?

Realistically, can anything be done? Most will say no, but I say yes. If people on this board honestly and fairly report dealers who fail to abide by Pure Price, as I did in the first post of this thread, it would discourage dealers from giving breaks to a select few middle-eastern style haggling customers. Would just a few dealing dealers then decide they had to lower the price to all comers rather than a select few? And would other dealers respond, ushering in gradual but widespread reductions? I thing the answer to both is an Economics 101 give-me of yes, but others will disagree. Will we ever find out who's right? Not likely, but, hey, isn't chewing this stuff around what we are about here? Or it it just rah rah Scion?

I was told at the Toyota/ Scion dealership in Cincinnati last week that if they don't sell for the sticker price, they can lose their franchise because they are audited on a regular basis. The no haggle price is the only issue i have with purchasing a new tC. I find it more efficient to go to www.edmunds.com, price the car with the options (if any) that i want, take that price into the dealer and say ill give you $300 over invoice. We compare numbers, and sign the paperwork. If the dealer doesnt go for this, fine. I go to his competitor down the street. Eventually, it works. With the internet, and all of the readily available invoice pricing, negotiating is substantially reduced. If you do your research, know the invoice prices, their is no reason that you dont pay a fair price.

Strange topic. I'll try to wade through a few of the points here from a dealer's perspective.

1. Scion is different. The whole "pure price" concept is hard for some salesmen to grasp. The ones that get it, love it. Those that don't get frustrated and make idiotic calls asking what they can do to make a deal. Those morons will have to learn how to deal with the new reality because I don't think Toyota is too many years away from switching to this model for all its cars.

2. "Profit" and "junk fees" do not constitute $1000 on the Scion. The xB has exactly $719 worth of difference between invoice and sticker. There is no holdback, nor hidden money. $719 is the gross profit on every xB with the automatic transmission. Out of that money, the dealer has to pay the salesman, manager, advertising expenses, floorplan costs (interest on cars sitting on the lot), and a host of variable expenses before a net profit can be calculated. I'm not complaining about this, but just correcting an error from above.

3. While there is very little room for discount in these cars, some discounting is happening within the confines of the dealer covenant. One dealer close to me has discounted all xBs by $500 and their web site reflects this. I spoke to thier manager and they have more than 20 of those cars in stock and most are 5 speeds in thunder cloud. I'm advertising a January special that waives the processing fee on the xA and xB which saves $225. These are specials that every customer gets and you don't need to negotiate to get them.

That assumes there is hundreds of dollars of "slack" between what the dealership paid for the car and what they retail it for.
I know from reading this board that there is about $1,000 + nuisance fees as the margin on each base model car, with greater margin when there is any option or customization taken. Until there is real competition, as opposed to every dealer coincidentally posting the same basic prices, we will never know how low they can go. Even the dealers don’t know, because, in face of real blistering competition, they would have to take creative actions to wring out costs. In the current environment, no one is doing that creative thinking. Could someone sell five times as many cars and make ten percent more profit if they halved that margin? No one knows, because no one has tried, because no one has had to try, because the few dealers who are in the vanguard of lowering prices find they can do it for selected customers only. This is what prevents the whole price competition thing from getting started.

Opportunities for greater retail efficiency? Certainly there are . Otherwise they wouldn't have slack staff time to telephone potential customers. Otherwise I wouldn't have an email in my inbox, from a dealer I may buy from and thus will not name, stating: "I will do whatever I have to in order to make sure that the time we have spent earns us/me the deal in the end." (No time really except my wife went for a test drive there 4-5 months ago.)

In other parts of the retail sector, there are great differences in efficiency between different sellers, opening up a range of opportunities for competition. Department stores teetered on the brink of bankruptcy while Sam Walton, selling for less, became one of the world’s richest men. It just beggars belief that the way Scions (forget about Toyotas) are sold is the most efficient possible.

1. Someone has already corrected your misinformation regarding our profit margin, so I will leave that be. However, I think your theories on 'creative' thinking in the retail environment reek of closed-minded-ness. All you attribute to creative thinking is 'pricing'. I think that you are missing the point. If you look at Scion, its marketing, the product offering, and the dealership experience - you'll see that Scion is perhaps the most forward thinking of car brand currently on sale in the U.S. Have you ever seen an ad on TV screaming at you about rebates and interest rates? Sure, all the time. That is about as creative as most car brands get nowadays. Do you ever remember who they are? Have you ever seen a Scion ad like that? NO. Will you ever? Unlikely. Isn't that refreshing? And creative? YES.

2. Do you REALLY want price competition? Due to information on the internet, every customer is now an expert on OUR costs, and nobody wants to pay the dealer a dime. Why is that? It's a mob mentallity. "Hey, that guy got close to invoice - I want close to invoice!" or "Some guy I know thinks he got screwed on a car deal, and since I don't want to get screwed, the dealership shouldn't make any profit." That's the mindset, and it's contagious. The way it's set up in Scion, if you like the car, buy the car. Not unlike a can of tuna or a CD - you don't haggle or negotiate at the grocery store or Best Buy, do you? And you don't even think twice about it.

3. With regards to a salesperson following up with you - you'd better be ready for it. At least if the salesperson is any sort of professional. You may not think that a test drive 4 or 5 months ago is any big thing, but you have TAKEN THAT PERSON'S TIME, the one commodity that they can NEVER get back. By calling and writing to you, they are trying to convert some of that spent time into income. This is how we make our living. Any minute spent with a customer is spent with the idea that we will somehow make money in the process. Yes, we forge bonds in this business, but this is not a hobby for us. So, if you don't want to talk to a salesperson, don't go to a car dealership. It's pretty simple. You need to value their time as much as you value your own. My time is at least as important as yours, and I won't be calling you unless I have some value to add to our relationship.

4. Your example using WalMart is flawed at best. The reason why Sam Walton is rich is due to the bullying tactics employed by WalMart in the marketplace. WalMart beats the suppliers into selling for less and less and less until there is NO profit, and then Walmart can sell it cheaper. In fact, Walmart is about the worst thing to happen to the American Free Enterprise system ever. Walmart is the enemy of small business, and does not help the American economy. It fosters poverty level pay scales, all the while making suppliers take their operations overseas and out of the country in order to meet Walmart's pricing demands. Toyota would rather help the economy and let everyone up the chain thrive because of the relationship. Walmart is only concerned with dominating the landscape with more Walmarts.

If every dealer in the Scion network sold using the Scion Promise and Pure Pricing, we would have a wonderfully efficient model of car retailing, with happy customers and a profitable car line.

Of course there will be bad apples, but there are bad apples in every industry. BUt you can be sure if Toyota spent the kind of money they did to bring this system to market, they did their homework. And if it's broken (unlikely), it won't stay broken for long.

LATER

While there is very little room for discount in these cars, some discounting is happening within the confines of the dealer covenant. One dealer close to me has discounted all xBs by $500 and their web site reflects this.
Thanks for pointing this out, a fact which refutes some of what I previously posted here.

Previously, I had carefully checked the web sites of most dealers in Eastern Pennsylvania, and breezed over those in neighboring states. cliffy1 inspired me to check some out of state Scion web pages again. I didn’t find any $500 discounts, but I did find that Cherry Hill (New Jersey) Scion, just 45 minutes away, is running a $300 off (before $149 doc fee and actual tax and tag cost) xB special. Told Barbara, we went right over to check it out, and we now have an xB in the back driveway. I’ll probably register in Scion Life tomorrow – I just mention this to explain why it still says I’m a future buyer.

I was told at the Toyota/ Scion dealership in Cincinnati last week that if they don't sell for the sticker price, they can lose their franchise because they are audited on a regular basis. The no haggle price is the only issue i have with purchasing a new tC. I find it more efficient to go to www.edmunds.com, price the car with the options (if any) that i want, take that price into the dealer and say ill give you $300 over invoice. We compare numbers, and sign the paperwork. If the dealer doesnt go for this, fine. I go to his competitor down the street. Eventually, it works. With the internet, and all of the readily available invoice pricing, negotiating is substantially reduced. If you do your research, know the invoice prices, their is no reason that you dont pay a fair price.

are you already a scion owner? just wondering, if you priced edmunds, they reflect sticker for the scion as their price on the car. just don't want people spreading misinformation. because, (didn't check if they display the invoice), if you came into my dealership and asked for 300 over my invoice on a scion, i would have to politely not sell you a car. the better way to do it, would be to check our scion websites, that way you can see exactly what we sell it for.

You may not think that a test drive 4 or 5 months ago is any big thing, but you have TAKEN THAT PERSON'S TIME, the one commodity that they can NEVER get back. . . . You need to value their time as much as you value your own.
As a matter of fact, my religion, Judaism, has a teaching that you shouldn’t ask a merchant about a price unless it is actually possible that you will make the purchase. Similarly, I think you shouldn’t ask for a test drive unless you are serious about maybe buying that type of vehicle. Having said that, test drives are a service each individual dealer performs for the community of all dealers. Shopping for price is the step after deciding what to buy, and I don’t think we ever bought a car where we test-drove. Sorry JUMBO, but I am not going to feel guilty about this.

If every dealer in the Scion network sold using the Scion Promise and Pure Pricing, we would have a wonderfully efficient model of car retailing, with happy customers and a profitable car line.
This is exactly what I favor. JUMBO should be glad that, in my original post here, I criticized a dealer who is not doing this.

Walmart is the enemy of small business, and does not help the American economy. It fosters poverty level pay scales, all the while making suppliers take their operations overseas and out of the country in order to meet Walmart's pricing demands.

Oy. The war against WalMart. For another perspective, see:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_2_what_does_the_war.html

Quote:
You may not think that a test drive 4 or 5 months ago is any big thing, but you have TAKEN THAT PERSON'S TIME, the one commodity that they can NEVER get back. . . . You need to value their time as much as you value your own.

As a matter of fact, my religion, Judaism, has a teaching that you shouldn’t ask a merchant about a price unless it is actually possible that you will make the purchase. Similarly, I think you shouldn’t ask for a test drive unless you are serious about maybe buying that type of vehicle. Having said that, test drives are a service each individual dealer performs for the community of all dealers. Shopping for price is the step after deciding what to buy, and I don’t think we ever bought a car where we test-drove. Sorry JUMBO, but I am not going to feel guilty about this.
What does your religion say about being a cheap bastard and haggling? :lol: :lol: :lol:

What does your religion say about being a cheap bastard and haggling? :lol: :lol: :lol:

I do take that in the triple-smile spirit.

If I were to give advice, my advice is to NOT be the first one to start a haggling session with a Scion dealer. However, I would advise going to more than one dealer, and sharing bottom line prices found previously -- especially if the dealers in your area fail to detail nuisance fees on their web sites. If the salesperson then responds per the Scion convenant, great. But if they start with the walking away to talk to the manager nonsense, you should use exactly the same silly tactics to save $100 on your Scion as you used to save $1,000 on your last car. Otherwise you are just making a charitable contribution to a bad car dealer.

Having said that, I did not haggle with any dealer for the xB we just bought. One dealer, from whom we did not buy, did start haggling with my wife.

Haggling is distasteful and honestly degrading. I hate it. I've been doing it for 11 years in this business because I must to make a good living (and it really is a good living). Before Scion came along, I did my best to minimize the amount of haggling by demonstrating the value of the product I was offering. I also did it by being straight forward and honest.

That didn't always work. There would always be the "grinder" who seemed to take sheer delight in squeezing the last penny out of the deal and hence, out of my paycheck. That kind of customer would sell me out over $50, even if that meant going to the lying scum suckers that had lied to him time and time again. This kind of customer literally put more value on pocket change then they did on integrity.

As much as I think such folks are vile excuses for human beings, I actually empathized with them. We in this business created this system. We created the incentive to take the last piece of meat off the bone and encouraged lying and deceit because that's how many in this industry behaved. I certainly can't expect more out of my customers than they expact out of me. Unfortunately, most of these "grinders" didn't take into account the chance that they would run across a decent human being in a car dealership and I paid for the sins of others as a result.

Scion was meant to change that. Take out the ability to grind on the part of the customer while simultaneously removing the ability to lie from the sales staff. Obviously, some on both sides of the table don't get it. Salesmen who don't get it should never see a Scion customer and customers who insist on living in the old system should stay out of Scion showrooms.

I tried to post yesterday, got a error so ....

I see a lot of misconceptions being argued here. Pure pricing does NOT tell us what to sell the vehicle for, it just tells us we have to sell it for the same price to every customer. That price has to not only be posted on the showroom but also on the dealers special SCION website, where all the finance rates, accessories, and pretty much anything else than can be part of the SCION purchase is listed.

I work for a posted price dealer so this is nothing new to me. Matter of fact, or SCION posted pricing is $339 below MSRP. We clearly note the $99 processing fee, it is on any vehicle we sell BTW.

As far as negotiating, we do not do that. We do have a 150% best price guarantee. If you want to negotiate, go try somewhere else.

As to the ETHICS I am seeing discussed here, it a dealer is willing to ingore/break the Pure Price covenant then why would you trust them at all? They will only give up on money to try and make it back somewhere else, and if they can not they will just refuse to sell the car to you - that is their right.
The dealer will always win when negotiating, believe me.

COMPLETELY UNPAID AND UNSOLICITED ADVERTISING ALERT

I tried to post yesterday, got a error so ....
I don't know, but if bc was posting in the morning, that computer error might have cost his or her dealership a sale. His place is a distance, but we like to drive.

I did notice, before reading bc’s post, that Fitzgerald's Scion Of Gaithersburg Maryland was a little cheaper than the local discounter I found and yesterday bought at. But I didn't realize a few things until, just now, reading bc’s post and checking out his dealership’s web sites more carefully:

1. Back in 1993, we bought a Plymouth minivan from Fitzgerald -- and it was a no-haggle deal even then. My credit union, which is headquartered in DC, loaned us the money and then sent us to Fitzgerald.

2. Fitzgerald also has a Scion dealership about 2 1/2 hours from us, in our state (Fitzgerald Scion, Chambersburg Pennsylvania), offering the commonplace lower Pennsylvania doc fee*, and, according to the family-of-dealerships web site (http://www.fitzmall.com/carfind/resultsa.asp?mode=NEW&lstMake=TOYOTA|SCION+XB), the low Gaithersburg prices.

3. If we had bought there, I would have been patronizing one of my fellow posters.

A friendly comment/suggestion. Some Scion dealer web sites seem to inadvertently hide low prices or freebies, and Fitzgerald is no exception. http://www.chambersburgscion.com only shows list prices. Fitzgerald does sell the cars at list with service extras thrown in. But the Pennsylvania site should mention, as does the main Maryland one, that people who come from a distance, or otherwise don’t want the extras, can save $339. Also, both the Gaithersburg and Chambersburg pages fail to put anything on the New Car Promotions page. This is where you can point out that the prices are discount and generally make a big deal of the whole dealership, including the Toyota side, being no-haggle. Maybe the problem is that the people who designed these web pages, which are quite similar for most dealers, did not make them easy to modify.

. . . a dealer is willing to ingore/break the Pure Price covenant then why would you trust them at all?
Of course, some people don’t have a choice because they live far from all but one Scion dealer. But if you live anywhere near DC or Chambersburg, I would definitely check out bc’s place.

* Obviously, check with dealers for price details rather than trusting me to get this stuff right! It may be that the doc fee varies based on where your car will be registered.

Well now that you're going to offer free advertising to one dealership, I feel it should be pointed out that the dealer in question actually has three different prices for their cars listed on various web site. One of those three is an error caused by a relationship between the dealer and its new web host, Reynolds and Reynolds. This is an error I caught and have corrected for my dealership, but they have not.

Beyond the error, they have two prices, depending on how hard you are willing to look. I'm not a big fan of this practice. I think it goes totally against the grain of the Scion sales model and I suspect it violates the dealer covenant. Even if it doesn't it does create havoc. Customers get the message from Scion and from Scion dealers that prices are consistent, fair and not subject to negotiation. Then, one dealer comes along and says "Screw that... find the right web site and we'll discount it $300." What message to consumers get from that?

By the way... I'm not blaming bc. In fact, from what I have seen, he seems like quite the decent person. This is not his call, nor his policy and I would not hold it against him personally. I do however, think his dealership is perpetuating the idea that games can and are being played with consumers.

Similarly, I think you shouldn’t ask for a test drive unless you are serious about maybe buying that type of vehicle. Having said that, test drives are a service each individual dealer performs for the community of all dealers. Shopping for price is the step after deciding what to buy, and I don’t think we ever bought a car where we test-drove. Sorry JUMBO, but I am not going to feel guilty about this.

I'm trying not to derail this thread, but I need to address this statement. Test drives provided by a dealership are not a service for the community of dealers. It seems like that is a rationalization so you can justify taking a professional salesperson's time all the while not compensating him/her.

When my salespeople make the commitment to go on a test drive, they do so after qualifying the person as a customer (ie one who will more than likely spend money with the dealership) first. If the person is only there to use the salesperson to get a lower price or save their own time later, then they may not get a test drive.

That might sound harsh, but I must re-iterate that we do not sell cars for fun, but to make money. Every minute I talk to a potential customer needs to be utilized as efficiently as possible, and if I'm not going to sell a car, I need to move on as professionally as possible.

I appreciate your religious beliefs, and I find it interesting that it is addressed. But from my end, I would even say that unless you plan on doing business with that specific dealer, you should refrain from test driving.

Just my .02, and I'm glad that you decided on a Scion. Enjoy your car.

LATER

Wow, Jon. not the kind of attitude I would expect from a sales person or manager or whatever positions you hold at your dealership.

My wife and I are looking at a Scion tc, so I decided to check out some of the forums to obtain some info on how the whole Scion system works.

As I look back to my years of purchasing cars, there was many times where I thought I wanted a certain car until I took it for a test drive. And you are telling us that your salesmen makes a decision on if a person "is a valid" customer before they are allowed to take a test drive? That is amazing.

One thing I have found out is that Scion has a lot of work to do on their reputation, a short lived one so far at that. Many of the forums contain numerous threads regarding this type of behavior.

Every customer that walks through the door should be considered a valid customer till they leave. I know have serious doubts on if we will head to a scion dealership to consider buying one. See the closest dealership is about 45 mins away. Could you imagine driving 45 mins and running into a salesman that has to make a decision as to weather you can or cant take a car for a test drive? Seems like you are shorting yourself on those "potential customers" you so eagerly wish to serve.

I think that you are misunderstanding my point of view on this subject.

The statement that was made earlier said that dealerships provide test drives as a service to the community of dealerships as a whole, which is absolutely incorrect. It is not my job, nor my salespeople's jobs, to help another dealer sell a car. It is our job to try and sell a car OURSELVES.

Of course any porfessional salesperson will qualify a customer when they come in, but all that means is that we probe to gather information that will help us meet the customer's needs the best. During that interaction, a salesperson can usually determine whether or not we are dealing with a buyer or not. Now, of course, not everyone is buying all the time. We ALL shop for various things during our lives, and we have different reasons for shopping. And many times, we don't necessarily purchase where we got the most service. And that is unfortunate.

My job here, as well as my salespeople's job, is to provide great customer service and sell cars. If we do the first, the second should happen. Many, many times, we provide a customer with the finest car shopping experience they have ever had, and they will purchase elsewhere over something like $100 difference. It has happened. All I am trying to get across is that customers should value their salesperson AT LEAST as much as the salesperson values them. If a salesperson does a poor job, don't reward him with the business. If the salesperson does a great job, reward them with the purchase. Our time is as valuable as yours, and it is important that customers are as honest with us as they want us to be with them. Many customers know exactly what they are at the dealership to accomplish that day, and if there is a possibility that a purchase is imminent, let the salesperson know. We assume that a customer comes to the lot to buy, not look. Far less time will be wasted on both sides of the equation if everyone is honest from the start.

I have had many Scion customers come in and tell me right off the bat "I'm planning on buying a Scion elsewhere, but I wanted to see what you had, etc". That opens the door for me to explore and see what it is that is taking their business elsewhere. I had a customer like that last month, and he could have easily been blown off, but I walked him through the process, told him the truth at every turn, and let him leave that night. He called from the other dealer the next day, and told me how they were behaving, and how he appreciated how we did business, and he came back and bought the car from me.

EVERY SINGLE person that I talk to will be treated like they can and will purchase a car until they prove that they WILL, WON'T, or CAN'T. Typically, a test drive must happen, and test drives DO happen. That is a part of the job. But I am doing them for MINE and MY customer's benefit, not anyone else's.

I certainly hope that you make the trip to explore a Scion as an option for yourself. I'm confident that you will like the car and the sales process. I hope it fits your individual needs, because you will enjoy purchasing and owning one.

I would be willing to clarify my point-of-view further if you like, and if you have any questions regarding Scion or anything else for that matter, feel free to contact me.

Jon

"And you are telling us that your salesmen makes a decision on if a person "is a valid" customer before they are allowed to take a test drive? That is amazing. "

All dealers, from all car manufacturers, do that to some degree. And its not even limited to car dealers... ever get a real estate agent to show you their listings without running your credit FIRST?

Many, many times, we provide a customer with the finest car shopping experience they have ever had, and they will purchase elsewhere over something like $100 difference.
JUMBO, would you pay $100 extra for a washing machine because you liked the store? I know I wouldn't. And I buy a washing machine even less often than a car, and do the same Consumer Reports research before I buy as with a car. Sorry, but every Scion dealer is selling the same item. As for there being a test drive, but not a test wash, what can I say? Actually it's just my wife that test drives. Nowadays, all the cars have pickup adequate to my needs.

I can see that some people who are getting their vehicle customized might look at it differently. It takes all knids of different people to make up the world, as I'm sure a car salesperson learns.

Many, many times, we provide a customer with the finest car shopping experience they have ever had, and they will purchase elsewhere over something like $100 difference.
JUMBO, would you pay $100 extra for a washing machine because you liked the store? I know I wouldn't. And I buy a washing machine even less often than a car, and do the same Consumer Reports research before I buy as with a car. Sorry, but every Scion dealer is selling the same item. As for there being a test drive, but not a test wash, what can I say? Actually it's just my wife that test drives. Nowadays, all the cars have pickup adequate to my needs.

I can see that some people who are getting their vehicle customized might look at it differently. It takes all knids of different people to make up the world, as I'm sure a car salesperson learns.

If the salesperson helped me to the point where the effort and establishment were worth extra, yes, yes I would pay it. $100 extra on a $700 purchase is a MUCH larger percentage then $100 on a $15,000 purchase, wouldn't you agree. Not exactly apples to apples there.

And as far as Consumer's Reports goes, they are terrible. Sure, they test things, and exist to ostensibly help the consumer, but their advice will hurt everyone eventually. They say to GO to the retail establishment, USE the salesperson's expertise, GATHER all of your information, and they BUY it online. If enough people do that enough times, there won't be anymore retail establishments to visit. And no experts to consult. And no recourse when there's an issue. But, hey, at least you saved a couple of bucks.

I understand that the world is made up of types of people. Every day in my profession is different from the last because of this, and that's why I do it. As long as customers and salespeople are honest with each other, everyone makes out.

damn i feel sorry for yah jumbo. i agree with everything you said, because i'm know this side of the fence. its hard to get across in words what he means. if you haven't been a car salesman it's hard to understand. he isn't saying screw the customer, which it seems is the way some people are taking it. now, if i were buying a washing machine, i would pay an extra 4 dollars (close to the same percentage 100/15000----4/700) for excellent customer service. shoot, i'd pay an extra 50 bucks if the person goes the extra mile for me. but, of course thats just me. i'm also the type of guy who won't tip at restraunts if the waiter is a jerk. now, with all that being said, i test drive everyone. i'm not a carsalesman. well, i am, but i'm not. because of the way our scion dept. is set up, i don't worry to much about customers coming back or not. it always seems to work out for me in the end. but, of course, i don't plan on being in this business long either.

it all comes down to respect. just respect the salesman if he respects you. oh and get a job as a car salesman :P

Absolutely I would pay $100 more for a large appliance if the sales person demonstrated the value. Hell, I've done that many times, including a boat purchase, a pair of boots and a TV. On each one of those transactions, I willingly paid more to an establishment that went out of its way to meet my needs.

Shopping for me is different. If I run into a moron that doesn't know his product and adds nothing to the value of a product, I'll shop the crap out of him. I'll go to every web site and store to get the last penny out of a purchase if all I get from sales staff is lies and idiocy. If I get a reasonble person who tells me something I didn't know about a product and helps me choose a product that meets my needs, I'll gladly buy it right away without hassle or haggling. I figure the sales person just saved me time and agravation and helped me get more out of the purchase by showing me how it works and that has value to me. Its value I'll pay for.

If the salesperson helped me to the point where the effort and establishment were worth extra, yes, yes I would pay it. $100 extra on a $700 purchase is a MUCH larger percentage then $100 on a $15,000 purchase, wouldn't you agree.
Well, I do see that a lot of people would agree with this. Personally, I think that $100 is $100 and can’t see how any percentage can increase or reduce that $100.

To say something else a lot of good people might not agree with, Scions are, as they say in Canada, the low-end Toyotas from the states. I’m not a rich man, and getting modest new cars (and keeping them for at least 100,000 miles) is one of the few real luxuries we allow ourselves. So I don’t look on it the way some others might.

And as far as Consumer's Reports goes, they are terrible.
Wow. What must Buick dealers say? Consumer Reports has been enormously pro-Toyota over a number of decades. However, I do see that some of their advice may be more helpful to Toyota as a corporation than to dealers.

Personally, I hate to haggle and this is one reason why the xB was an easy sell (to me) after my wife told me about it.

I do certainly agree with the point that customers should respect the salesperson’s time. Pure Price makes this much easier to do without putting yourself at a financial disadvantage. Under the haggling system, it is inevitable that lots of time will be wasted on both sides unless the customer agrees to leave money on the table. I know people who love it as some kind of battle of wits. Me, I never liked it.

Fascinating thread, actually. Thanks for starting it, Steve.

I am, I suppose, an oddball Scion buyer. I'm not in their targeted demographics at all.

When I bought my xB I'd been into that dealership to look at Scions twice: Once when they first showed up in this state, and once to buy.

The first time I plainly told the salesperson who greeted me that I was only looking, and they took that opportunity to stalk other customers.

The second time I went in was many months later, and I told the salesperson that I was there most likely to buy an xB that day, depending on the outcome of a test drive.

I took a four mile or so test drive to verify my thoughts on the vehicle, and the rest of my time was spent drinking coffee while the dealership did their thing with credit check and tracking down what I wanted. This was painless for both them and me (and they actually had some pretty good coffee!).

This is the 28th car I've bought, the 23rd new one. Most have been fairly painless, some have been miserable experiences. Few have been as easy, pleasant, and satisfying as this recent Scion purchase.

On another part of this thread: Would I conciously spend a bit more for something than I absolutely had to? Yes I would, and yes I have - often.

I've bought things for over 50 years, and while I will often go for a bargin price, I will just as often display "loyalty" to a seller who has treated me well as a customer. I will spend a bit extra at a local mom-and-pop shop with good customer skills rather than go to a nationwide discounter with know-nothing sales critters who care little about "customer care" and don't consider it a part of their temporary job, anyway.

When I spend a bit more to get good customer service, I look at it as no more than leaving a tip for a job well done.

I spend the extra money knowingly and willingly, and feel adequately rewarded fo my slight extra expense.

Maybe I'm some sort of throwback, eh?

Yup, that does make you a throwback it seems. You and me both.

Here's another point... the right salesman can actually increase the value of a product. This isn't always the case, but what if your salesman is able to show you something about the car that you didn't know about? I had a customer who's friend had bout an xB at a competing dealership. While I was going over the new customer's new car, I showed her how the SSP button works. The woman who already owned a Scion was in the back seat, watching. She had no idea what the button did. She was extatic. She had a much better stereo than she thought she did.

Here's another way to look at it. Let's say you have two people who own identical Scions and paid exactly the same amount. Let's also say that one of them was unaware of how to turn off the "maintenance" light. Or perhaps one of them didn't know about the two click feature on the remote. Maybe only one of them knew what that big screw looking thing is in the spare tire compartment. All aspects of the deal were the same, yet how is getting more for their money?

I really appreciate the way that this discussion is staying on topic and maintaining a higher level of communication than most discussions about this subject. Thank you all.

Steve, you hit the nail on the head with your idea stating that Consumer's Reports being better for the corporation than the dealership. That is almost always the case with CR - they ultimately somewhat benefit the producer of the goods, at the expense of the sales and service people involved.

I hate to haggle, also. I feel that it takes some of the dignity out of the process. I am a professional, and I sure didn't feel like it when I am arguing over $100 with someone. I would just as soon give it up and let the customer 'win', so I could maintain some personal respect. Some people in my industry equate salesmanship to being able to negotiate with an iron fist. I wholeheartedly disagree. I equate salesmanship to being able to determine my customer's needs accurately, deliver on my promises, and bring value to the transaction.

Tomas - it seems rather unfortunate that you are a throwback. Unfortunate in that people have moved away from placing value on people when it comes to a transaction. Many of my Scion transactions go like you described, and it's days like that that I really love my job.

Oh, and as an aside, Buick (GM for that matter) shouldn't hate Consumer's Reports for spilling the beans. They should hate the executives that put more stock in incentives and rebates as opposed to building a decent car. ;)

PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE! THESE ARE S C I O N S not a house or a porsche.

It is hella cheap in the first place... Live with it or go haggle and buy a cavalier!

PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE! THESE ARE S C I O N S not a house or a porsche.

It is hella cheap in the first place... Live with it or go haggle and buy a cavalier!

Don't be so cavalier! $15K is a lot of money, whether you realize it or not. This is the second largest purchase that people will make, and it's important that I keep it special for them.

Back to the Oscars!

PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE! THESE ARE S C I O N S not a house or a porsche.

It is hella cheap in the first place... Live with it or go haggle and buy a cavalier!

Don't be so cavalier! $15K is a lot of money, whether you realize it or not. This is the second largest purchase that people will make, and it's important that I keep it special for them.

Back to the Oscars!

hehehe true.

Steve, you hit the nail on the head with your idea stating that Consumer's Reports being better for the corporation than the dealership. That is almost always the case with CR - they ultimately somewhat benefit the producer of the goods, at the expense of the sales and service people involved.



This intrigues me... could you elaborate? To me, it seems like having a well-informed customer would make a salesman's life easier, not more difficult.

It also seems to me that they create a lot of headaches for manufacturers, since their tests don't always reproduce real-world conditions...

On the whole, Consumer's Reports (CR) do pick higher quality products in the tests. I agree that their tests do not replicate real-world environments, and when it comes to their testing, I take issue when they rate subjective items, like speaker sound quality and olive oil(!). When something needs subjective assesment, that is up to the buyer and the buyer alone. I can tell you that this speaker sitting here is the greatest sounding speaker ever in the history of mankind, but if you don't think so, that's all that matters.

So, CR benefits (for the most part) the producer of the good (Toyota Motor Sales), but at the expense of the sales and service people down the chain.

CR would have a consumer utilize the salesperson's time and energy to gain all the information that they need to make an informed purchase decision, and when they are ready, purchase it from an online source or from the retailer at VERY little or NO profit whatsoever. It seems that CR has a major problem with businesses that sell things to make a profit in the free-enterprise society which we all live. What exactly is the problem with a business making a legitimate profit? Couldn't it be argued that a business provides many, many intangibles in the sales process that consumers take for granted? For example, if there were only online car dealerships, where would you take your test drives? If there were only online electronics retailers, where would you go to listen to the speakers that you are considering? If you have an issue with your new purchase, where do you take it if you've ordered it online? Will you be able to speak to the same person that you did business with?

People take brick-and-mortar business for granted, and we now live in a society where profit is regarded as evil. Why? This country's economy has been built on the tenats of free-enterprise and the free market. What is wrong with making a profit, especially if the consumer gets good service, a good product, and a pleasurable experience?

The other issue with CR is that they feel that it is a consumer's right to know exactly how much profit is made on an automobile, and how to dwindle that number to nothing. I see nothing in there on how to cheat the grocery store out their profit on a loaf of bread or how to bypass the profit that a department store makes on a shirt, but by all means, take away the car dealer's ability to make profit. CR does not respect us, and that should explain my attitude towards them.

So, CR helps Toyota because makes a great product. They usually get that part right. But beyond that, CR is out to take money out of my employer's and, more importantly, my pocket. That doesn't sit well with me at all.

LATER

CR would have a consumer utilize the salesperson's time and energy to gain all the information that they need to make an informed purchase decision, and when they are ready, purchase it from an online source or from the retailer at VERY little or NO profit whatsoever. It seems that CR has a major problem with businesses that sell things to make a profit in the free-enterprise society which we all live. What exactly is the problem with a business making a legitimate profit?
Umm, you do know that the name of the magazine is Consumer Report?!
The whole purpose of the mag is to be an advocate for the consumer. Equipping the consumer with the information they need to make informed decisions and to avoid spending extra money unnecessarily.

Of course, you'd rather that CR remain silent so that customers would pay extra for extended warranties, undercoating, and pay full retail for floormats.

The other issue with CR is that they feel that it is a consumer's right to know exactly how much profit is made on an automobile, and how to dwindle that number to nothing. I see nothing in there on how to cheat the grocery store out their profit on a loaf of bread or how to bypass the profit that a department store makes on a shirt, but by all means, take away the car dealer's ability to make profit. CR does not respect us, and that should explain my attitude towards them.
Hardly a fair comparison. When was the last time you had to haggle over the price of a loaf of bread? Or the price of a shirt?

The auto industry set up this adversarial environment. The dealership tries to maximize profits... the conumser tries to minimize expenses. Until dealerships change the rules, that is the way things will be. You can't pin THAT on CR. There's also a big difference between paying an extra $0.10 or so on each loaf of bread that has a fixed price, and paying $1000's more on a vehicle with a floating price. (and likely purchase another vehicle 4-6 years down the road)

It might be convenient to pin the blame on CR for the current situation, but that isn't where the blame needs to be placed. It falls squarely on the shoulders of the dealerships themselves. They're the ones who run deceptive ads, push high-margin extras like "undercoating". They're the ones who negotiate on the price. It comes down to being willing to take less of a profit to make a sale.

Of course, you'd rather that CR remain silent so that customers would pay extra for extended warranties, undercoating, and pay full retail for floormats.

It might be convenient to pin the blame on CR for the current situation, but that isn't where the blame needs to be placed. It falls squarely on the shoulders of the dealerships themselves. They're the ones who run deceptive ads, push high-margin extras like "undercoating". They're the ones who negotiate on the price. It comes down to being willing to take less of a profit to make a sale.

I do not blame CR for anything. I was simply asked to clarify my position on CR in an earlier post. I agree that there is an adversarial relationship in the car industry, and that has been fostered over years and years. Yes there are deceptive and immoral business people in this industry, but there are immoral and deceptive people in EVERY industry. And to say that the responsibility falls squarely on the shoulders of the dealership is ignorant. Due to things like CR, as well as the internet, consumers know ALMOST as much about our product as we do. I would say that it would incredibly difficult for a dealer to be shady about a deal in today's litigious society. I'm sure it still happens, but alas, there will always be bad apples.

And as far as your assumption regarding what I would like CR to do and not to do, be careful. I take pride in my integrity, and treat my customers how I expect to be treated. I do not want customers to pay for anything that they are not willing to, and that I wouldn't buy myself. I have been very careful not to flame on my posts, and I felt that I explained my position on CR pretty accurately.

I feel that if CR got its way, all businesses would sell their wares for no profit. But if that happens, than the traditional outlets for consumers such as yourself to purchase said items would go under, ultimately making it MORE difficult for comsumers to shop. Competition for the consumer's dollar does everyone good, but our economy is set up on profit, not charity.

It ALL boils down to this: If the consumer is honest with the dealer, and the dealer is honest with the consumer, than everyone will win, EVERY time.

Until dealerships change the rules, that is the way things will be. You can't pin THAT on CR.

Ummm... Earth to tcperconti... what do you think Scion is about? Its about changing that confrontational dynamic, yet this thread illustrates that this is not what consumers expect. They expect confrontation, negotiation and deception. Many consumers are not at all happy with Scion because they took away all their fun they learned from CR.

I know it was dealers who started this. I also know that there are a number of dealers who would love to put an end to it, but can't. They can't because if they did, consumers using the CR methods would literally run them out of business. CR is a great way to learn about the product and its also a great way to learn how to use honest information from a dealer against him. It ends up rewarding those dealerships who cling to the old style of selling.

Believe me... its a vicious cycle. Consumers don't trust us because too many in our indusrty lie on a consistent bases and we don't trust consumers becuase they lie to us on such a consistent basis. When a customer says "I just need to talk to my wife and I'll get right back to you. Don't worry, I'll be back tonight to buy it." is actually code for "thanks for your time and the honest information. I'll have very good memories of this experience when I'm driving my new car that I'm buying from Whore-cars Motors for $100 less than you offered."

Until dealerships change the rules, that is the way things will be. You can't pin THAT on CR.

Ummm... Earth to tcperconti... what do you think Scion is about? Its about changing that confrontational dynamic, yet this thread illustrates that this is not what consumers expect. They expect confrontation, negotiation and deception. Many consumers are not at all happy with Scion because they took away all their fun they learned from CR.
Duh. Of course I understand that, and I agree. If you had bothered to read any of my posts on this forum, then you would know that I greatly appreciate the pure pricing position that Scion has taken.

Look at all of the car companies out there. Except for Saturn, Mini, and Scion, I don't know of any other company that have no-nonsense pricing. so while adding Scion to the mix is a step in the right direction.... "we're not there yet."

I know it was dealers who started this. I also know that there are a number of dealers who would love to put an end to it, but can't. They can't because if they did, consumers using the CR methods would literally run them out of business. CR is a great way to learn about the product and its also a great way to learn how to use honest information from a dealer against him. It ends up rewarding those dealerships who cling to the old style of selling.
Well, it seems that based on reports on this forum, Scion dealers aren't immune to the old ways of doing business either.

I experienced a "good cop, bad cop" scenario when I bought my xB. The salesmen were great. The transaction was smooth. Then I went in to do the financing. I have stellar credit (over 730 score) I received the hard-sell for the extended warranty (which I did decide to take) and an even harder sell for the security system (which I refused).

So excuse me if I am not to sympathetic to the poor "good" dealerships that are out there. Because it's all about business.

Believe me... its a vicious cycle. Consumers don't trust us because too many in our indusrty lie on a consistent bases and we don't trust consumers becuase they lie to us on such a consistent basis. When a customer says "I just need to talk to my wife and I'll get right back to you. Don't worry, I'll be back tonight to buy it." is actually code for "thanks for your time and the honest information. I'll have very good memories of this experience when I'm driving my new car that I'm buying from Whore-cars Motors for $100 less than you offered."
Chicken and egg. Consumers often times feel the need to lie because of the high-pressure the salesmen place on getting people to purchase. In their zeal to seal the deal, they push potential customers into situations that they didn't want to find themselves in. So to extricate themselves from that, they tell a lie. Don't push the customer, and they won't be put in a position to lie.

If you think about why a customer felt the need to give that answer, you will see it is because a salesman asked "so, should I write this up and get you in this car?"

Hey, I'm not faulting them, they ARE salesmen after all. That's their job to SELL.


I've purchased about 13 new cars over the past 26 years (avg of 1 every 2 years, alternating for myself and my wife)... and there has ALWAYS been pressure exerted somewhere along the process, Scion included.

[ So to extricate themselves from that, they tell a lie. Don't push the customer, and they won't be put in a position to lie.

If you think about why a customer felt the need to give that answer, you will see it is because a salesman asked "so, should I write this up and get you in this car?"


Nope... that's not what it takes to get lied to. I've been doing this for over 11 years and I still can't read all the lies I get told. When I was on the Toyota side, I tried as hard as possible to be as far form the typical car salesman as I could. I didn't pressure, I didn't lie and went out of my way to make sure the customers were comfortable at all times. I still lost a large number of sales to other dealers because the customer used my good nature and good information against me.

Many cusotmers were delighted at the fact that I gave them a price and didn't try to tie them to the chair. They were delighted becuase I didn't make them feel uncomrotable as they headed out my door and drove straight to my competitors. Those competitors would make them uncomfortable so they would give up and buy from them.

Scion at least gives the honest guys the ability to compete. If customers still insist upon patronizing high pressure, low service dealers, they do it in spite of the fact that they don't have to.

Scion at least gives the honest guys the ability to compete. If customers still insist upon patronizing high pressure, low service dealers, they do it in spite of the fact that they don't have to.

And that's the point. No one FORCES anyone to do ANYTHING. You control your own destiny, not me or any other salesperson. Do what feels right to you. tcperconti, you said that you were 'hard sold' a warranty. How is that they did something that made you uncomfortable, yet you rewarded that with a purchase? You had your chance, and you let it slip away.

The more that people patronize poor service dealers, the longer the problem will exist.

LATER

a couple of weeks ago i satrted looking to buy an xB. i went to the closest dealer and ask for a broucher. they did not have any. i asked them about the R.S. 2.0. they were not sure when they would be out and could not find out. they also did not have any to look at. i went up the road to a big auto center to look again. this dealer did not have any brouchers either. they did have a couple xB's so i could sit in it and scratch and sniff. the salesman asked if i wanted to drive it i told him yes buti was not going to buy it because i was looking for the yellow one. he had never heard of a yellow one. he went off to find out some info for me. he said they should be getting one in march. on the test drive i noticed that they had a cardboard mock up radio. i asked what that was and was told that the car does not come with a radio. he even said that the car doesn't come with anything it is all options or extras. after the drive i thanked him and left. i went to amother dealer and asked about the yellow one. this guy told me that he had four on the way and should be getting them with his next allocation. he thaught that they would be in in march. i said i would take one. knowing about this pure price thing. we sat down and started talking and asked what kind of options i wanted. i told him i just wanted the car as it comes. he said he could not sell it to me like that. with the special edition i had to spend at least $3,000.00 thats right $3,000.00 in extras. he said leather interior and a sunroof was preferred. at least he had brouchers. i told him no and left.

the first place i stopped had no answers and could not help. so i would not buy from them. the second place were liars. the broucher and CR list a radio as standard equipment. the third place wanted to make max money by forcing you to buy expensive options or they wouldn't sell you the car. i understand them so i wouldn't buy from them either.

if i had not been informed about what is was looking for or what i wanted i could have been taken advantage of buy less than honest salesman.

so i would think that as a salesman you should know everything that there is to know about your product. and be willing to share that information and not think that someone is going to use it against you somewhere else. i thaught that it was the sales manager that decides to sell or not sell. a salesman should entertain all offers. even the rediculas ones. let the people who make the call make it.

i only took one test drive but if i was refused the chance or made to qualify for the chance. i would move on even if i ended up paying more someplace else. as a salesman shouldn't who demonstrate your product.

there is alot of things that kill deals. not knowing your product or what it comes with. making someone take something extra so they can get what they want. you might remind them of the guy who ran over his dog.

to fault someone for knowing what they want and how much they want to spend just doesn't seem right. if you lose a sale for being honest things happen if you make a sale by being dishonest just remember things happen.

i found a dealer and ordered my car. no hassle no trouble no problem no extras. if i save a little great if i spend a little too much so what.

cogito ergo spend
i think therefore i buy

Gads I hate hearing stuff like this. It kills me that dealers are still pulling crap like this. I'm glad you kept searching for a dealer to do things the right way. Too often, people stick with the lousy dealers and just beat themselves silly in the process.

I do want to make a comment about the stereo though. Not one single Scion enters this country with a stereo in it. None. They are installed either at the port or at the dealer level. Some dealers are having them installed at the port, but most don't. If the dealer is doing things right, they wait until they sell the car and install the stereo the customer requests. It comes free with a single disc and if the customer doesn't want to pay the $395 for the 6 disc, that is the one we install.

It sounds like that one dealer didn't do a good job of explaining that. The stereo does come with it, but they don't install it until you buy it.

i found a dealer and ordered my car. no hassle no trouble no problem no extras. if i save a little great if i spend a little too much so what.

cogito ergo spend
i think therefore i buy

I'm glad that you chose to purchase where you were treated properly. I regret that it took you four visits to find a dealer worth a s#it, but you made out in the end, and the crap dealers did not make a sale.

And I like your little sig at the end there. Should I be flattered?

LATER

Upon consderation, I agree that Consumer Reports is generally hostile towards business in general and auto retailers, so I can see why you have a negative opinion of them.

However, I don't see anything wrong with knowing how much profit the dealer is making. I mean, it makes my blood boil to see the car I traded in selling for thousands more than I got for it. If I know that the dealer made squat on the car I bought, it placates me somewhat. If I know that the dealer made a killing on the new car AND a killing on my trade in... well, then in that case CR is providing a good service.

I too got the "hard sell" from the finance guy. In my case, I rejected their financing and their extended warranty and just went with a loan I had already arranged on my own. But I still bought the car from that dealership, because there are only two other toyota dealerships conveinent to me, and I've had even worse experiences at both. Granted, it was the toyota departments, not the scion departments, but i figure the service departments and finance departments will be one and the same whether its a scion or toyota.

We are probably going to buy another scion soon. I will probably use the same dealership as the last one. This time we will walk if they try the hard sell again. And I've got the Scion Customer Service number in my cell phone if they really annoy me.

Scion at least gives the honest guys the ability to compete. If customers still insist upon patronizing high pressure, low service dealers, they do it in spite of the fact that they don't have to.

And that's the point. No one FORCES anyone to do ANYTHING. You control your own destiny, not me or any other salesperson. Do what feels right to you. tcperconti, you said that you were 'hard sold' a warranty. How is that they did something that made you uncomfortable, yet you rewarded that with a purchase? You had your chance, and you let it slip away.

The more that people patronize poor service dealers, the longer the problem will exist.

LATER
I decided to get the extended warranty because the details of the plan were appealing to me. Prior to entering the finance office, I wasn't decided one way or another whether I would get it. So it wasn't a reward to the finance guy for the hard-sell, but a good investment (based on my finances) for me... and I wasn't going to make an emotional decision to pass on the warranty simply to try and "punish" the finance guy. If the guy didn't tell me about it at all, I would've been fine with that too.

The point for my mentioning my experience is to cut directly to cliffy1's assertion:
Ummm... Earth to tcperconti... what do you think Scion is about? Its about changing that confrontational dynamic, yet this thread illustrates that this is not what consumers expect.

So I don't want to hear this garbage that Scion dealerships are different. People are people and human nature is universal. As long as Scion dealerships are manned with people, those dealerships will be no different than others. PURE PRICING addresses only one aspect of the car buying experience. There's more to it than price. But it is a good start.

And what does this say then about the future of changing the auto purchasing dynamics if a company "designed" to change that acts in the same cynical way?

-------
My xB purchasing experience overall has been the best so far of any new car I've purchased. But the financing phase of it has been the WORST. (the details of the loan itself were excellent, no complaints there)

I've witness one incident last week at my dealership where a lady walked out of the dealership because what she researched in the INTERNET said no one should buy at sticker price.

I know I am a sales person, but I honestly believe people should buy cars at sticker or whatever the price is posted. Buying a car shouldn't be a flea market experience lol.

I can't believe the horrifying stories I hear from people on this forum. I would recommend to go to www.scion.com then look for the closest dealer in your neighborhood, go to their website, checkour their inventory and the posted price and any disclaimer they have in their. Print out the stuff you want then go their to test drive it and if they tell you other stuff than whatever is on their website tell them that's what their website says and that you'll go to a dealership where they follow Scion's purchase policy.

We are probably going to buy another scion soon. I will probably use the same dealership as the last one. This time we will walk if they try the hard sell again. And I've got the Scion Customer Service number in my cell phone if they really annoy me.

I can report that the second time was better in some ways and worse in others. They tried to not give me such a hard sell in finance, but on certain items it was just as bad. And getting their service department to do their job on installing the options I bought was a miserable experience that did indeed drive me to call Scion. While I have continued to recommend Scion to friends, I also point out to them to not use the dealership that I did.

wow...this is one interesting post..

Ok After reading this for the last hour because I was annoyed at Fitz, I am dredging this back up from the dead.

There were a lot of good points made and a lot of stereotypes reveiled.

I personally have been selling Toyota/Scions for the last 4 months and hate it. Why? Internet Whores. People who go ok well this dealership down the road has "more value added" so I will go to them since they are 20 minutes away buy the Scion tC from them even though you were knowledgeable and had the car there and I live close to you. This burns my ___. I got into this to help people Scion, I got tired of hearing the dealer didn't know squat. I know everything there is on Scions. One of the sales people here asked me "Are you a Scion expert?" yes "Is that cause you like them, or cause you sell them? " It's cause I own one.

I belive that a "delivered internet price" should not exist. Scion pure price was established for one reason and one reason only.
TO MAKE LIFE SIMPLE.
Think about it. Who is the brand geared towards? 18-25 yr olds. At 20, when I purchased a Scion on my own, I went to the dealership because I saw it before it hit the states, I liked the xB and I ordered one. Did I know anything about haggling? About best value? No I saw a car I liked that was 4 doors, power everything, plenty of headroom (6' tall), black and that I could purchase myself, on my own, without my parents.

That is what Scion and pure pricing is designed for. Not so 60yr old men and women (no offence Tomas) can go cruise around cause they think it is quirky and a good value. It was designed for people like me, the guys who know nothing about car sales, who like to hook up cars and go to shows. Do I go to car shows to go "hey look at me I sell Scions you should come visit?" NO. I got to show off my ride and see what people have done and to share my insight.

To me, THAT is a value. Someone who connects to you on your level. It is a great feeling when I get someone in, and I get them talking about Scions and I start showing off my ride, and the shows and Get-togethers I have been to. To get them as excited about the purchase they are going to make as I am, that, my friends, is a good feeling.

So to all those who go, hey I can drive 20 minutes to get something $50 cheaper on a $16,000 car, who cares about the honest sales person. Remember, I, as well as other dealers, make a living off doing this and because of people like you, I am not making a living.

End rant.

Always remember- Good salesmen sell, bad salesmen whine (and starve). If the deal is balancing on $50, suck it up or lose the sale.

Scott, you aparently missed my point of the statement.

The problems here have nothing to do with good salesmenship. They have to do with bottom line and people thinking that this bottom line can be as low as they want. When I get customers who I can explain pure pricing to, explain this is the price, everyone who purchases here and any of the other 9 dealerships in this area pays, and yet they continue to haggle.

Dealing with internet customers makes me feel like I am in a bidding war. In fact people send me comments like "dealer with the lowest price wins" or "the proceedings are now closed." This I hate. I got in to this business to share my excitement with Scion. Not to be a blind lowest price bidding war. When in fact, that is what it is. When I explain to people here is the price on a Scion, they IMMEDIATELY try to find where they can get something extra. If I like you, then I will do something extra for you, if you treat me like the enemy, then I have no reason to go the extra mile for you.

I get PMed on here by people that would like to make a service appointment with my dealership. I go that extra mile and get it set up for them. Is it my job? No, will I do it cause your nice to me and I respect you? Yes. If you call me up screaming at me that it has been three weeks since you asked for touch up paint, you know what I am going to tell you? Call the parts deptartment, not my job. Why? Cause you treated me like dirt.

Scion pure pricing was designed for that first time buyer. The guy who it is his or her first car they purchased. Scion wants to make that purchase enjoyable. In fact we are told that we are supposed to ask permission before we proceed in any step of the purchase process. Now that you have decided which Scion you like, did you want to test drive it? You liked driving the car, would you like to see if you can afford it? You can afford this car, you have picked out your accessories, did you want to purchase it? Nothing High pressure, no haggling, no shoehorning.

It is when dealers and consumers chose to abuse this system that I get annoyed. People that live that live close to me, going to another dealership and purchasing the car from my lot at another dealer because they THINK they are getting something extra. I am all about Honesty and integrity, so it bothers me to lie to people and to decite people that this industry requires. It has nothing to do with how well I can sell something. It all depends on who's final figure is the lowest.

This just goes to show no matter how much car you get for such little money someone, somewhere wants it a buck cheaper. Not that I can blame anyone, we are by nature hunters....bbbbbbbbbuuuuuuuttttt, really now. On any scion (assuming no dealer crap extras have slid it's way in) the markup is pathetically low.....what under a grand. I say thanks Scion for giving so much and charging so little. PLUS, if you did and could haggle 50 bucks or 200...would it be worth all the frustration and the days it took to bargain.....IMO nahhhh, gimmie the keys and let's riiiiidddeeee.......No Haggle also helps high resale ;-)

"the markup is pathetically low.....what under a grand. "

WAY under a grand... I don't know that there's any proof, but the frequently accepted number is about $300 to $350. Heck they're making more in destination charges than dealer markup in some places.

i went to CAPITOL TOYOTA for an 06 Flintmica tC base auto/wing/fogs

went to steven's creek.. same old 06 flintmica tC base auto/wing/fogs

i didn't say anything.. but the rate was lower at steven's creek, steven's creek won my business

both 5 years plan..

There is nothing that says all dealers will or must charge the same price for their cars or accessories. Each dealer sets their own prices, and the other fees (documentation, etc.) are set to cover their costs plus add som profit - usually.

What "Pure Price" is all about is not prices between dealers, but prices between customers. It simply requires that every customer who walks a specific dealer pays the same clearly posted prices, just as they appear in the open at the dealership or on the dealership website.

Glad you poked around and found the dealer with the better prices, James.

Tomas

well everyone still believes that everyone pays the same amount as everyone regardless of dealerships

if they are doing that.. at least fine print it below pure price logo

wow this is very interesting.

I have to say, after reading all this, and seeing that at least as much price differentiation comes in the financing room as it does from the fees or retail price, I feel the need to point something out:

pure pricing, and the no haggle buying experience, works an awful lot better if you don't finance the car. As I understand it, nothing in the Scion covenant really governs financing. If you go in, fix the numbers, and get a cashier's check based on that number, it is WAY more difficult to get the hard sell on things like extended warranties, extras, etc. It even works better if you DON'T finance through the dealership but choose a credit union or your own bank instead.

I live in an area with relatively few scion dealers (we have two within about an hour) and neither were known for great customer service. However, I paid cash, and the experience was nominally painless. Ordered car, got car in on dealer trade, paid for car, picked it up in two days. There weren't any interest rates to compare, or $100 to save anywhere. Heck, they accidentally gave me free floor mats. I'm sure, had I been financing, I would have gotten a worse deal overall.

I understand that the model is pretty much based on the assumption that a young person buying their first car will be financing, but the model works far better when you don't, and it seems to me from reading threads like this that the financing is a big source of pricing discrepancies.

just food for thought.

Yup, once one is locked in a room with a finance weasel one has to be very careful not to end up lunch... The Scion "Pure Price" experience is all good until that point, and finance weasels keep their jobs only by pressure selling those "extras" at extreme profit. All dealerships have 'em, Scion or not.

"Finance" is the dealership's last chance to add those little 'extra' high-profit items to the sale. You are already hooked on the vehicle - can almost feel yourself driving it home - and they know in that state you are 'suggestable.'

They know you want the car, and that you want to just get the papers signed and get out of there. They purposely set it up so they have all the power - you want the car, you are in their office, you are playing by their rules, they are the ones doing all sorts of printing, paper pushing, and hard selling, all questions are a set-up with the automatic answers being "yes."

Finance weasels are specifically chosen for their ability to sell their own mother's walker back to them if they leave it unattended for a moment. They have no heart.

Once you are locked in the cage with the finance weasel, you really have to concentrate. Don't let them sell you a wash and wax for $500.

Don't drink the Kool-Aid!

Tomas

finance weasel.... i like that term.

Give the people a good car at a good price and let the _____ing begin.
The price is good compared to what it would be if there was no Pure Price. I'm just explaining how we can get more of that good thing. If semi-Pure Price is good, Pure Price is excellent.

I think both cheerleaders and _____ers have their place in their world of ours, and on this site.

im not quite sure what youre saying.

When i got my xA, i paid sticker. sticker was the same "pure" price no matter which dealer i went to. its basically the price on the website, plus $120 in floormats. in california, add 10% to the MSRP in taxes and license fees.

i sent out an email to all the dealers the day after i sold my 1998 civic hatch on ebay for $5500. i was looking for an xA, 5spd, and gave them my 3 color choices in order of preference... IIP, grey, black. the first dealer that had an IIP 5spd emailed me, and i was down there an hour later.

and the F&I jackhole? HE is the person to worry about. he got NO love from me, at all. no permaplate, no scotchgard, no extended warranty, no financing (paid it off). especially after i pointed out his fancy AERO office chair.

pure price was one of the reasons i went with an xA over a yaris hatch. no dorking around with "power packages", etc. i got the car i wanted at the price i wanted, and it holds its value well.

Wow! these are some mad long posts.

^ your wasnt

this one isnt...

har har..

"the markup is pathetically low.....what under a grand. "

WAY under a grand... I don't know that there's any proof, but the frequently accepted number is about $300 to $350. Heck they're making more in destination charges than dealer markup in some places.

last time i really checked a couple years ago, the actual markup on a base xA was something like $600. im not going to begrudge them that.

however- here are a few things i did and everyone CAN do to eliminate some of those squares on their lil 4-square" sheet.

sell your car yourself. i sold mine on ebay after dealers wouldnt even give me a tradein value on a 1998 civic with 52k miles.

set up your own financing. in LA county, factor in 10% on top of sticker to pay for tax and insurance. get the financing quote for that amount minus what you can get selling your tradein.

dont get any extras. you can buy em later- they arent going anywhere.

Sory for bringing up an old topic, but this guy is complaining about a few bucks while also talking about how affordible the Philly area is.

Philly is over priced, you don't think so, so stop complaining about a few extra bucks from Scion.