Toyota markets these cars as a base for an infinite number of aftermarket parts from TRD and others. I bought the Borla dual-exhaust system, had it installed by a muffler shop and have been driving it for about 3 weeks. This weekend, the check engine light came on so I dropped it off at the dealer this morning.

They called and said that the code showed a malfunctioning catalytic converter and that this was not going to be covered under warranty because it is being caused by the Borla exhaust. I told them that it's a cat-back exhaust and goes on AFTER the catalytic converter and O2 sensor. The service man argued that it didn't matter, it is being caused by the exhaust.

This is bologna! Not only that, he says that since the problem was caused by an aftermarket item, I have to pay a diagnostic fee to the dealership.

I tried to call Borla but their tech line isn't answering. I guess they might be in California? Also, doesn't SEMA have a stand on this subject?

What should I do?

Jeff

Technically he is right as far as the warranty thing is concerned. Not trying to start anything here, but you did "alter" the exhaust. Whether it is before or after the cat, it has been changed. They are not responsible if the aftermarket part caused the problem.

On another note though, I am trying to figure out how it caused the problem. I have never seen a catback system cause the cat to go out???

No problem at all. I appreciate the comment. However, how many thousands of cars have aftermarket exhausts? How does Borla and others stay in business if their systems trigger the cat?

One comment that I forgot to mention is that the service man said that it was the "left" cat that caused the problem. I told him that the OEM cat wasn't touched and that the "left cat" is a muffler!

I called the guy that installed the exhaust. He said that they're jerking me around and that the cats are warranted by law for 8 years. He said that even a lack of backpressure wouldn't cause something upstream to malfunction.

when the exhaust was put in, i'll bet the muffler shop damaged the secondary O2 sensor. take it back to the muffler shop

Screw the dealer, they're full of crap. Take it to the shop that installed the exhaust and have them look over the cat. I doubt anything is wrong at all. just reset your ECU. That might clear up the CEL...

Peace

-THE DON

PLEASE just call scion customer service and let them fix that dousche of a dealer they have to fix your car and the draler will be ____ed when they get a call from scion!!!

maybe just an idea, take off the exhaust, put stock back on, then take it to another dealer

maybe just an idea, take off the exhaust, put stock back on, then take it to another dealer


thats what i would have done ... but thank god my engine light hasnt gone due to my cat back. *knock on wood*

also if your check engine light ever comes on take it to autozone, they will check it for free! its their way of getting you to buy the parts to fix it there.

i dunno if other autoparts places check it also but its a good investment for them to do it. they sell the scanners so they just buy one for store and its a great way to sell parts.

Thanks guys. Unfortunately, I thought that there was no need to keep the huge OEM exhaust so I tossed it in the dumpster. I'm screwed. Still waiting for Borla people to get into their office.

I guess that I'll have to wait for a stock system to appear on eBay, put it on, get it fixed and then sell the car.

The WHOLE idea of Scion is to be attractive to people that like to make their cars unique. If you can ONLY install TRD accessories or risk having warranty denial, no one will purchase these cars.

I'm thoroughly disgusted with the car. I wonder if I can trade the car in with the engine light on?

Thanks guys. Unfortunately, I thought that there was no need to keep the huge OEM exhaust so I tossed it in the dumpster. I'm screwed. Still waiting for Borla people to get into their office.

I guess that I'll have to wait for a stock system to appear on eBay, put it on, get it fixed and then sell the car.

The WHOLE idea of Scion is to be attractive to people that like to make their cars unique. If you can ONLY install TRD accessories or risk having warranty denial, no one will purchase these cars.

I'm thoroughly disgusted with the car. I wonder if I can trade the car in with the engine light on?

not to be rude but throwing that away was a bad idea, its a good idea to keep all stock parts in case you ever trade it in, need warranty work or aftermarket part breaks.

here if the check engine light is on the car automatically fails emissions, and you cant register it until fixed. and who would want to buy a car that has the check engine light on anyway

Edit: N/M I posted to slow

When I purchased my XB the dealer had the option for a Borla cat back. I chose to include it in the purchase price of the car. I may have paid a little more, but if I had not done it this way I would probably still have the stock system.

Now my Question.

Is my dealer installed Borla covered under warranty?

i was wondering did you try to speak to another dealership? I know that in some places you can not void a warrenty due to an after market part unless it causes engine damage to the point its not running. I would contact another dealership or customer service for scion.

The muffler can not cause the converter to go bad. Ask the guy how this happens. I would definately call Scion and let them get involved to remedy this problem. You will probably get a new converter, no diagnostic fee, and an apology from the jerk. then you won't be so disgusted with your car and can drive happily on down the road. Whenever people have problems like this it would serve us all if you would include the dealers name. Word of mouth really is the best advertizing. :silly:

not to be rude but throwing that away was a bad idea, its a good idea to keep all stock parts in case you ever trade it in, need warranty work or aftermarket part breaks.

here if the check engine light is on the car automatically fails emissions, and you cant register it until fixed. and who would want to buy a car that has the check engine light on anyway

Remove check engine light BULB, and behold no problem! :P

first of all, i don't know much about warranty. but, if you intsall something that isn't made by toyota, and isn't sanctioned by toyota, you have to think they probably won't cover it. a warranty is to cover factory defects, not defects caused by another companies product.

now, with that being said, i don't know if the dealership is right or not. what most people don't understand, is that warranty doesn't come out of the dealerships pocket. toyota pays for it, if its covered. now, the guys at the muffler shop, they might have something to lose. if i was you, i would take it, as is, to another dealership and see what they say. i would also call up scion customer service, although i suspect they will tell you to go to the dealership.

good luck though.

first of all, i don't know much about warranty. but, if you intsall something that isn't made by toyota, and isn't sanctioned by toyota, you have to think they probably won't cover it. a warranty is to cover factory defects, not defects caused by another companies product.

now, with that being said, i don't know if the dealership is right or not. what most people don't understand, is that warranty doesn't come out of the dealerships pocket. toyota pays for it, if its covered. now, the guys at the muffler shop, they might have something to lose. if i was you, i would take it, as is, to another dealership and see what they say. i would also call up scion customer service, although i suspect they will tell you to go to the dealership.

good luck though.
You have a good point there, but this totaly reminds me of an issue I had with my 03 GMC Sierra. I went to the LOCAL dealership where I bought my truck on stevens creek, I have tons of aftermarket or different GM parts on my truck. I was having a issue with my engine, they had the NERVE to tell me it was my aftermarket INTAKE (which is sold by some GMC dealerships) and is one of the top 3 for my truck. They said they wouldnt help me out,

So the next time I was in LA, I stopped by a dealership down there (now the LA area is a aftermarket supermarket area) the dealer told me no problemo fixed my issue and even repalced some warrenty alert parts like my steering collum and tailgate straps, then gave me a call asking me if I wanted an oli change and that they would only charge me for the filter because of what the previous dealership did.

Talk about a total night and day between dealerships, Anyways I complained to the GM manufacture about stevens creek gmc and they informed the dealership about the incident and now when I goto service @ stevens creek for oli changes and other stuff I get this new guy who told me that service chick that helped me before was fired. HEH HEH. opps sorry lady.

As an after story, I even get coupons and stuff from that dealership in LA till this day. Which since I have family down there I use from time to time. That dealership has become my favorite.

Go to another dealership. There is in no way, shape, or form an aftermarket cat-back exhaust will cuase the converter to go bad. It's a damn metal pipe! No moving parts or anything like that. It's just a little bigger and shinier than factory pipe. How's that gonna cause a problem? Especially with a cat. that it's installed after.

I called Borla and the guy was real defensive. He said that I'm protected by the "Magnuson Moss Act" which allows people to put parts on their car that increase performance. He was adament about it and said that they of course would replace the system if it was defective.

I called Scion Corp. and they were sorta jerkish about it. They said that it probably isn't covered under warranty but the final determination has to be made by the dealership. They also argued that it could be due to faulty installation. That's their word against the muffler shop though.

I just spoke to the Service Manager at the dealership. He explained that the cat could be affected by something downstream such as the mufflers because the changed backpressure would affect how hot the cats got which would make the car either lean or rich which would ruin the Palladium in the cats over time - something that might happen over time and not immediately. (which ruins my argument that if the exhaust were defective, it would've happened soon after being installed).

Is he full of bull or am I out of luck? I think at the least, Borla should refund my money since their product isn't compatible with the Scion's cats and help me purchase a new OEM system.

I don't think I'm going to win this battle. I thought about taking it to a new dealer but I would think that this visit would be noted in their central computer PLUS I risk having to pay another diagnostic fee.

I'm waiting for the service manager to call me back. If he tells me that it won't be covered, I think the only option left is to file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission due to the Magnuson Moss Act.

I wish that someone else with a Borla dual exhaust would reply and let me know if they have had any problems.

Scion really needs their own financing arm and service people.

The back-pressure defense is a bunch of crap. Have them install a back-pressure tester in your exhaust and see how much there is, then have them do it to a factory exhaust. They have to prove to you the exhaust is the cause before denying you the warranty coverage.

The WHOLE idea of Scion is to be attractive to people that like to make their cars unique. If you can ONLY install TRD accessories or risk having warranty denial, no one will purchase these cars. :roll:

C'mon, how can you say that???!!!!

Remember, the WHOLE idea of Scion is to make money for Toyota by attracting a new market segment, something that they've already been very, very successful with.

Now with that being said, Toyota has been AWESOME at showing it's grattitude and giving back to the customers. Think of all the freebies, events, concerts, and parties they have thrown for us? Also, their customer service has been top notch.

As a former sales manager for a Scion dealership, I can also say that Scion has done a fanastic job of making sure dealerships maintain compliance and don't rip people off.

I can understand you're upset, but the point of the warranty is to protect customers from factory defects. If you were Toyota, would you pay to fix every car that had a problem because the customer used some crap product, or a good product with a crappy install??? I know I wouldn't.

I don't think your problem is with Toyota. I'd suggest going back to the guy who installed your exhaust. He's the one who probably messed something up. If the install is 100% perfect, then take it up with Borla. Maybe it's a faulty product and should be covered under THEIR warranty.

Lastly, try taking it to another dealership. I have to admit, as good a job as corporate Toyota does keeping dealerships in line there is a lot of discrepancy between what some service/sales guys will tell you from dealer to dealer.

I'm not trying to flame you, but you have to keep in mind that it's wrong to hold Toyota responsible for mods you do to your car using non-certified parts and non-certified techs.

You have to remeber that if Scion honored warranty fixes for everything aftermarket put on a vehicle that causes a problem, serious or not, the costs for that would skyrocket out of control. They have to draw a line somewhere, unfortunately, it's with aftermarket parts.

ok guys , the dealership has to this is all by way of Magnussen Vs. Moss act
1 have to prove that your exhaust caused a problem and
2 it is virtually impossible for an exhaust to throw a code , ask him how the exhaust is causing it ,
and 3 toyota is warranting the aftermarket exhaust but it will warrant the catalytic converter
ok guys. for a dealer to void a warranty or dismiss warranty work a dealer must PROVE that the aftermarket part itself or the install is what caused the damage to the oe part.alot of dealer break the law by bluffing because they don't want to pay if they can successfully pull the wool over someones eyes, what an unfortunate consumer that comes across a dealer like this must call their bluff , if they still dont budge call scion corporate , they will have things fixed lickedy split. if not get ahold of a lawyer.
oh and last but not least after the dealer tells you how the exhaust caused a prob(very unlikely that it did) if they actually have a legit sounding reason take it back to the shop and make sure they didnt f*** something up.
and if they are dicks remember Magnussen Vs. Moss and give a call to scion corporate. and of course word of mouth advertising of how dicky they are can do nothing but help!!!

Here's what I would do. Join the Scion Evolution - DFW Chapter. Go to a few meets and meet up with Scott(Scott17), he works for Scion of Irving service department. Scott is the man when it comes to needing to know how to fix or install anything. If you can't figure out how something comes apart, call him and he's already done it for some reason. :) I would then take your car for any maintenance to Scion of Irving, b/c Scott won't bust your chops over aftermarket parts and he's one of the few service guys I know that I would trust.

Once you have done all of this, you come out of it with a new family(SE-DFW), a bunch of new friends, the best service department you'll find in the area, and a t-shirt. :lol:

Just my 2 pennies.

-Z

Just buy a high flow cat! :P

-THE DON

Just buy a high flow cat! :P

-THE DON
ha , a obdII high flow? good luck.

You CAN trade in a car with a CEI on... I did when I bought my Scion. Of course, I didn't get much for it...

You CAN trade in a car with a CEI on... I did when I bought my Scion. Of course, I didn't get much for it...
why would he trade it? maybe i skipped over a part or two of his post

and I imagine they were joking, but pulling the bulb won't work because the light must come on when you turn the key...

I would have the muffler shop check it out. IF... big if... the dealership is right, the muffler shop possibly weakend/damaged/frayed/etc. the O2 sensor wire. Did the muffler shop put your car up on the lift? That is my suspicion as I don't see muffler filling running upstream to damage an o2 sensor. Good luck & let us know.

I would have the muffler shop check it out. IF... big if... the dealership is right, the muffler shop possibly weakend/damaged/frayed/etc. the O2 sensor wire. Did the muffler shop put your car up on the lift? That is my suspicion as I don't see muffler filling running upstream to damage an o2 sensor. Good luck & let us know.

Yes definitely have the sensor wire checked. I have seen similar problems caused by shops removing the exhaust hangers and letting the exhaust (or just parts) hang by the O2 sensor wire. In my experience this is what causes most of the problems.

WHAT A RELIEF! I don't know what made them flip-flop but I started working with the Service Manager directly. He called me about 5:30pm yesterday and said that the error code turned out to be a false code after they reset the computer AND that if I have any other trouble with it in the future, they will replace the cat. converter UNDER WARRANTY!

Wow! good for you dude.

Hey look that service guy i jerking your chain if the exhaust was put on by a professional muffler shop with proof it will not void your warranty, he is just trying to get $$$ out of you if they wont coperate with you just go to an other dealership and comlain to scion division they will make sure this does'nt happen again they are all about customer service and they dont want any dealership being misrepresented they will repremand that service advisor trust me i use to run a dealership before. you should never have to pay for anything if the car is under warranty especially an emission problem.

Let me guess... They reset the ECU and the light went off?

Didn't somebody post that earlier? Who was it....? :lalala:

-THE DON

good that all was resolved. i guess maybe they got some sense somehow knocked into em? who knows , good stuff.

Catalytic converters generally don't just go bad>it is a fault of something up stream (fuel delivery) also I have seen cat's get replaced for no reason other then an O2 sensor giving incorrect data (in the field we call this a lazy O2 sensor) this can cause incorrect fuel delivery (fuel trim outside the norm 14.1) there is nothing down stream that will cause a cat to go bad. this dealer is full of crap. I have been working in the service end a dealership since 1979. Also note Cat converter have a special fedreal mandated warranty that extends past the bumper warranty generally 8 years or 80k miles Call Scion or go to another dealer then call Scion and put this dealer on report

When I purchased my XB the dealer had the option for a Borla cat back. I chose to include it in the purchase price of the car. I may have paid a little more, but if I had not done it this way I would probably still have the stock system.

Now my Question.

Is my dealer installed Borla covered under warranty?Yes, it is. That is the point of having dealer installed stuff: So it's covered. You may pay more, or not get the same thing as the aftermarket stuff, but the peace of mind is worth it, at least to this old fart.

Who has the Borla, dealer installed, and is happy with it.

first of all, i don't know much about warranty. but, if you intsall something that isn't made by toyota, and isn't sanctioned by toyota, you have to think they probably won't cover it. a warranty is to cover factory defects, not defects caused by another companies product.

now, with that being said, i don't know if the dealership is right or not. what most people don't understand, is that warranty doesn't come out of the dealerships pocket. toyota pays for it, if its covered. now, the guys at the muffler shop, they might have something to lose. if i was you, i would take it, as is, to another dealership and see what they say. i would also call up scion customer service, although i suspect they will tell you to go to the dealership.

good luck though.

umm, some scion dealers sell the xA and xB with the Borla. Also allot of dealers ell these cars with mods. What would happen if he had bought the car with a Brola? I'm just asking this cause I assumed you were a dealer.