Hey everyone, I've been looking at the posts and there seems to be quite a few people around here who are running untuned setups NOT includinig ZPI stage 0.

I would like for anyone who does not have an engine management to post what type of setup they're running. This is NOT, i reapeat NOT an opportunity for people to say "you should never run untuned" i've read that NUMBER of times before. I'm interested in only hearing from those who are running low boost with no management. Thanx!!

 

and thats why 50 views and no post lol. no one likes to do that. point blank. boosting on budget will bring problems GL!

 

f to the a to the i to the l spells FFFFFAAAAAIIIIILLLLLL dont do it you will pay the price of............... a new motor just tune it why be cheap no one likes people who are cheap not even girls......

 

look dude i have the most experience with running untunned and on stock injectors.... my air fuel ratio was 15.7......thats lean u want a 11.8 afr... if u want to run boost un tunne di suggets you atleast get 440 injectors, untunned itll put u in the 11.xx afr which is good for 6psi


i am right now running 410cc injectors and a safcII to tune it right now i am at a 12.2 AFR and thats with me having to trick the ecu into thinking 30-34% more air is coming in, if i had 440s which i should get i wouldnt need much adjustments

 

thanx for the coment, but thats the that i don't need to hear. I was just curious as to who has done it. I'm not stupid, i know the potential outcomes. So if you don't have anything to add, feel free not to comment .

Thank you to the previous poster for your information, i know i've pm'ed you a few times....as of last week i've already purchased the 440cc injectors. I would like to boost and its not "on a budget" (contrary to what folks may assume). i just don't see the logic in purchasing engine management hardware/software thats not 100% if Ptuning and Dezod are working on something based on the scion/toyota ecu.

I know I could go standalone, but thats not a feasible option (and dosen't fall into the "boost on a budget" arena)

 

yea put the injectors in and leave boost at only 6psi, do you have a wideband?

 

so u can just go put bigger injectors and they will function properly or will they just dump loads of fuel for the hell of it?
i still cant understand why the stage 0 can do it but other turbos cant?
i got a zpi stage 0 and every ones freaking me out.

 

NO it all depends on the size of your turbo if u have a to4e then 440 injectors happen to be perfectly suited for untunned at 6psi because it dumps alot of fuel but the turbo makes up for it by adding enough air...if u had bgger injectors youd be even richer and at that poitn would need a tune to lean it out


your fine if u have zpi stage 0, the zpi uses a 16g turbo and a 16g doesnt flow nearly as much as a to4e so at 6psi on a 16g u can run stock injectors and no tune, i do suggest a wideband gauge tho it was the best 140 dollars i spent

 

yes, i just purchased a wideband, i'm definitely not trying to do irreparable damage to anything. If i can keep an eye out on the AFR's i should be ok. If it starts to lean out, i'll take the kit off and wait...i've been stock piling turbo parts for a little while now, and i can wait a little longer if i can see its too lean.

I currently have SoFloTc's old rebuilt turbo waiting to be installed. Its a Dezod speced t3/t4 precision turbo .48 ar. Depending on how things go, i'll keep you guys updated. I'm also toying with the idea of doing the TRD reflash in which some have commented that it is tuned well for partial throttle, while it leans out toward the top end of the power band due to it pulling timing and the simple fact that a supercharger has more or a linear power range where as a turbo does not.

 

Basically when you change to larger injectors the ECU will try to trim them back to acheive it's desired 14.7:1 in closed loop (normal driving conditions) based on feedback from the oem WB O2 sensor. When you enter open loop at higher load/rpm/boost the ECU ignores the O2 feedback and relies primarily on the MAF and it's pre-programmed fuel tables. If you find the right combination of injector size, turbo and boost level, it's possible to have very safe (although less than ideal) AFRs in open loop. They aren't ideal because while you want to get richer as boost, rpm and load increase, they will actually get leaner as boost and airflow increase. There are also limits to how big an injector the ECU can trim. I've had great success with 440cc but Turbo magazine tried 630cc w/o EM and they were way too big for the ECU. I suspect that 550cc is also beyond the stock ECU's limits but haven't confirmed this.

IMHO, 410-450cc is a slam dunk w/o EM. The only downside is that AFRs will bounce around for a while as the ECU learns the new fuel trims. On my 2008 XB, increasing injector size ~20% from 370cc to 440cc resulted in same-as-stock closed loop performance and 10-12:1 open loop AFRs with a T3/T04B pushing 6psi and 10-11:1 without the turbo. My LTFTs avg -20% but the ECU hasn't complained even once (CEL). YMMV.

 

IMHO you might be okay with 440cc and a WB AFR gauge but it depends a lot on your turbo and boost level. There are big differences between T3/T4 turbos other than the turbine housing. I ran a Chinese T3/T4 spec'd at .63 A/R, stage 3 turbine .60 A/R, T04E 50 trim compressor but it was actually a .48 A/R stage 3 turbine, .60 A/R T04B. I replaced it with a Precision 5031E with the same spec's but the Precision turbine housing is bigger and the compressor housing and wheel are much bigger.

If you have a "real" T04E (not B) compressor, you might not want to exceed 4psi w/o EM. I also considered the TRD flash but decided against it because of the reportedly excessive timing retard, inability to reflash back to stock and the reported difficulty of tuning it with EM later on. I'd say skip the TRD flash, install those 440cc, get a 4psi WG spring and watch those AFRs carefully.

 

before i made my custom turbo kit. i was s/ced and i left the reflash in thinking it wouldnt matter. and it did. the reflash is the safest thing possible only for s/c not for turbo. it did not work and dont try it you will be wasting your time. you cannot compare a turbo to a s/c as far as spooling and performance and tune. look if you dont have the funds to tune then dont try you kit till you have. why risk your motor and hard work for nothing.

 

thank you guys very much for your input, this is good to hear. I appreciate your concern (to the above poster), as I don't want to see my car ruined either. As I state above its not an issue of money..i have the funds but would rather run low boost while waiting for better engine management hardware/software to come out that is more reliable that AEM (can't use a/c), FIC (can't tune partial throttle), E-Ultimate (reliability in other areas).

I do, however, have friends who push extremely high boost and whp in a number of cars. Thats not to say that I'm the binding authority on boost and by osmosis i'll get their knowledge, but i'm surrounded by people who can help .

One buddy has a boosted '91 maxima pushing close to 400whp on a stock block, another has a '92 pusing even more, and even another who has an 1100whp awd DSM that does awd burnouts. Anyway, all that to say i'm surrounded by people who know.....

i'll post my setup as soon as the remainder of the parts arrive...thanks all for the feedback!!!

 

read above in red

 

ummm....fic does tune partial throttle...the only thing that can be a pain is tuning for the open/closed loop transition but with a little time its not that big a deal.

 

Using a scangauge to watch the fuel trims when you tune an F/IC resolves almost all issues people relate to them due to ignorance.

 

 

my set up maxed stock injectors at 3.6 pounds

 

EL mani, 3" DP, full 3" exhaust, cats removed, big turbo... of course it did. IIRC you made > 200whp at 3.6psi. My setup made < 200whp at 6psi.

 

WOW, you're i couldn't have been more wrong putting that is reverse order...sorry, thats the problem staying out too late and then waking up without getting the requisite amount of sleep LOL.

Again thank you guys (and possibly gals) for your input we will see what happens. I'll keep people posted once everything is completed....hopefully i wont have to put this off for a couple of months, because there are SOOOOO many crazy good real estate deals here in chicago. LOL then again, maybe that'll be good because the tuning software for the ecu may be ready :-P