i already droped the car a couple inches, but want o ged rid of all the body roll. swaybars? front or rear? ayone whith insight please let me know

Don't take curves so fast. :)

Fully adjustable struts and dampers and sways

Don't take curves so fast. :)
:ponder: :D

What springs did you get? I would think aftermarket springs would help do away with the body roll. You can always get sway bars and new shocks/struts...

go with the hotchkis sway bars

are the terms shocks and struts interchangable?

What springs did you get? I would think aftermarket springs would help do away with the body roll. You can always get sway bars and new shocks/struts...

Still stock. Tires first...

go with the hotchkis sway bars

to reduce body roll....
sway bars....

^^^^^^ I concure

John

the stock tires suck, they're the same on the my Z. New rubber = better grip. :)

More tire grip will get your car to lean even more.

If you want the lean gone, do front and rear lower sway bars. That does the most. Better tires, and stiffer/lower spring/strut setup will help as well.

But from my racing experience, sways make the biggest difference for the car "leaning" left and right.

springs

shocks, strut tower braces, sway bars,

Go with the Hotchkis sway bars (front & rear). From what I gather the strut tower braces isn't gonna do much for our car because of the way the shocks are set up, so close to the fire wall. It's more for looks.

i got the H&R oe sport. they droped the car 1.9 front 1.7 rear and did away with some of the roll, but the TC has quite a bit of it..i think the front and rear sways sound good to me..is anyone actually running the hotchkis bars on a lowered tc?

Believe it is Struts in front, and Shocks in rear, but anyone correct me if I am wrong. Thanks :bow:

Sway Bars, it's what they are designed to do!
They are often called Anti-Roll bars in Europe.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question432.htm

sway bars. the bigger in the rear, the better.

sway bars resist body roll by loading the outside tire (the one that is already loaded), swaybars in general reduce ultimate cornering ability, no free lunch.

The "best way" to reduce body roll is a stock height stiff linear set of springs.

Why stock height? Cause lower springs changes the roll center of a Mc-strut and the car will have more tendency to roll. Unless the spring rate is increased.

Why linear, cause they are stiff during initial turn in where the front struts take a set as you go into a turn.

http://e30m3performance.com/myths/Weight_Transfer/weight_transfer2.htm

'The key point is that as a MacPherson strut suspension is lowered, the length of this lever arm increases. Just compare A1 to A2 in the figure above. Thus even though the car is lower, it will tend to roll more! This is not what many people expect when they lower their cars'

I can provide reams of data, direct experiecne, etc to show you why you can't lower a strut and improve performance. and um most Hondas ( I assume many people are from Hondas) have A arms up front. While my VW and others has a strut front which I've worked on, raced for 30 years.

Good write up on bump steer, camber change, and roll center.

http://www.h2sport.com/SportSpindle.pdf

The info above is great. But being a manufacturer you have to find the happy spot for the products. Much of what you discuss is of racing applications (I assume). We try to make it a comfortable ride on the street and a good performer on the track. That many times is a variable rate spring (sometimes a linear rate - depends on the application) for the vehicle. We have track tested our xB (see linkhttp://www.hotchkistuning.com/bin/misc_pages/Scion%20Testing.htm) and came up with a good combo. By the way I am prejudice because that is my car. I am not saying we are the best or worst. We are just another product on the market, with numbers to back up the claims.

As the say there is many ways to skin a Scion.

in general the more spring, the less applied bar, hence the need for bigger bars to keep the same applied bar. Swaybars have there place of course, but NOT as the principle or "best way” to take car of body lean. Of course as an integrated package is probably the “best way”.

I learn from the track as well as the street. The progressive springs are NOT optimal for a McPherson strut suspension. As you said this is really a race setup and the compromise on the street is a progressive in many if not most cases. However it is disingenuous of the many makers and sellers of springs to say that progressives give the best of both worlds: ride and performance. Progressive springs compromise performance to generate a better ride. Progressive springs are soft during initial compression which means a soggy turn in and it also means that at the ideal portion of the suspension ie non-compressed where camber and castor angles are both at there respective maximum values are / is being wasted compressing the soft coils of the spring instead of turning the car. There are of curse stiff to real stiff progressive that do not compromise performance but they don’t ride well either, yes the do ride better then just a plain stiff linear spring. So any blanket statements on the matter are subject to large caveats.

All in all, I can’t think of a single OEM performance car with progressives. All OEM feel that the performance benefit of linear springs overrides the comfort of a progressive.

I would agree that Hotchkiss has an integrated package, and since I have not tried it, I would be the first to say my IMO. I do note that your setup is listed as linear and very firm. Especially in the rear!

I personally never drop my ride that low, but this is a personal choice and clearly your company is producing a superior product for the people that want lower stance and performance.

I personally would prefer a near stock height, less stiff linear spring, damper and probably only a RSB but may indeed need both of your bars in the future.

As stated in my first paragraph, the stiff linear spring is going to show less applied bar (less roll) hence you kit addresses this with uprated bars kudos to your engineering talent. The counter is also true, stock springs do not need more bar especially in the front and installing such will cause a loss of ultimate grip.

http://www.hotchkistuning.com/cgi-bin/EDCstore.pl?user_action=detail&catalogno=19425

COILOVERS - TEIN

SWAY BAR SET - HOTCHKIS

STRUT BAR - DC SPORTS

need I say more???

Expensive, maybe it works maybe not, show up at the local autoX and see. Sure I see great coil over suspensions, um with linear springs at 400 to 600 pounds inch, not niced polished 200 progressive springs painted pretty colors sitting way too low to actually work.

Just compare the Hotchkiss setup, lower in the back at 2 inches then in the front at 1.7 inches, NOT what you would want for a "performance look "; but exactly what you NEED for a car that already has a twitchy tail. The tC has nasty trail brake over steer so lowering the front more then the back makes a bad tendency into a deadly tendency, a quick glance at the springs on the market yield some that drop the front lower then the back to give that all important nose down rake aka the boy racer look, too bad this drastically compromises performance, then just to make sure you land in a ditch: toss in the fact that many of these improperly racked cars feature springs that are progressive meaning they have even more tendency for diving and weight transfer to the front which will cause ever greater amounts of extremely dangerous trail brake oversteer. A condition that Joe normal can’t cope with. Note that Hotchkiss has a linear spring in the front ( ast least going by their technical data).

So yes please post the drop fore / aft and the spring rate and if these Tein coil overs feature progressive springs. Also please post the dampening characteristic of the for and aft dampers in terms of jounce and rebound and are these dampers also progressive or are they linear?

Till then I would assume this is one of the it is expensive, is painted a pretty color so it gotta work my dog is bigger then your dog comment.


Stiff, less drop, linear, good tires, lighter but stock size rims all = MORE performance in general. Big rims, heavy rims, progressive springs, tucked tires, and the like are primarily looks mods. Don’t confuse the two.

Can some looks cars perform well? Maybe, I have not seen many in my 30 years at the tracks.

True performance starts at:
A good setoff tires on light and strong rims. I have Kumho MX 225-45 on stock ultra light and ultra strong OZ Supperleggeras 17x8 about 2 to 3 pounds lighter then the stock wheel. A great combination.

For my suspension: stock for now, I’m waiting for a set of AGX or Koni type of adjustable dampers to come out: rebound adjustable only,

I’m racing SCCA so I can’t tough the springs or rear bar. If I bump up to T3 (touring three class) when the TRD supercharger comes out then I have lots more to play with, it will be great to be running a supercharged tC against some serious iron, spanked yes but fun doing it.


Folks please don’t go “tuning” your cars and finding out the hard way that the products don’t or can’t work. Buy an engineered package from a vendor that at LEAST knows the specifications of the parts. If this is a looks mod (nothing wrong with that) then drop, rack and if she will be smooth is all that is important, then PLEASE remember that it is NOT a performance suspension and could indeed perform poorly when pushed.

Then go to an engineered package: Hotchkiss, TRD etc from a vendor that you know and can help you with the compromises between looks, ride, and performance. For me it is: performance then ride, don’t care about looks. If your looking for a 2 inch drop, racked front, soft ride progressive setup, don’t expect it to perform. I expect performance first and hopefully the ride won’t require a kidney belt. So of course I expect my suspension to actually work and NOT exhibit nasty tendencies like trail brake oversteer. Which BTW you can NEVER get completely away from. So it is looks, ride, performance, and if the vendor is selling you all three then I’d be looking for somebody that knows what he is talking about. The Hotchkiss is lower then stock, but it also reverse rakes the car and it is stiff and linear so obviously this is more of a: performance, looks, ride setup. The average cup kit ( not height adjustable coil over) which usually fit in the: looks, ride, performance order of life, especially if the cup kit is progressive on the spring and offers a front rake.

Ask your vendor and hopefully he’ll have a clue, buy your stuff cheap on EBay, hope you read my post and buy a suspension book or two. Also show up at your local AutoX, most guys are nice unlike the oldman and will help you out with some good old fashion bench racing.