I just took a quick looks at the sales figures Toyota released for May 2010 today, and Scion sales are still way down from last year (and last year, 2009, was HALF the sales of 2008).

Some of the Toyota line are doing quite well, and are continuing to sell, but Scion appears to just be hobbling along.

I don't know why that is, it could be that the vehicles they currently have just don't generate the excitement they did when first released, or even that they don't generate the excitement the original Scion models did.

It could even be that Scion isn't "working the crowd" and getting the Scion Community excited like they used to, after all we ARE their sales force since they actually advertise very little other than the "viral" and word-of-mouth advertising they depend on us for.

Whatever it is, Scion sales are not doing well.

Here are the raw numbers so you can look for yourself:

December 2009 Sales (http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/December_2009_PR_Sales_Chart.pdf)

January 2010 Sales (http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/January_2010_PR_Sales_Chart.pdf)
February 2010 Sales (http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/February_2010_PR_Sales_Chart.pdf)
March 2010 Sales (http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/March_2010_PR_Sales_Chart.pdf)
April 2010 Sales (http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/April_2010_PR_Sales_Chart.pdf)

May 2010 Sales (http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/document/May_2010_PR_Sales_Chart.pdf)
________________

Honestly, for myself, a staunch Scion supporter - a "fanboi" if you will - Scion doesn't have a vehicle in their line-up now that I would want to buy.

Don't get me wrong, Scions are good cars, but they abandoned the niche that suits me when they discontinued the original xB City Car / Urban Utility Vehicle and did not replace it with another City Car / UUV.

The xB2 is a great car, great value, but it is a freeway cruiser not the tiny City Car with massive space that I find so attractive.

If they announced they were bringing in the current bB / Materia / Coo / DEX (all the same vehicle from the same plant despite the name on the package*) in their line-up I'd pre-order it tomorrow morning. I'd be stoked. It is my box with all the upgrades I wanted (even the side air bags).

Hopefully the new tC and the iQ, which many of us have seen at the private presentations, will bring back some of the excitement, and Scion will once again "get the buzz on" with the community so sales will pick up and they can do even more.

For right now, though, I guess we just hang on and hope for the best. We as a community will continue to do our thing and enjoy our Scions. Hopefully Scion will once again get back to doing THEIR thing and give us something to be excited about.

Tom

* Those vehicles are the Toyota bB, Daihatsu COO, Diahatsu Materia, and Subaru DEX. I actually like the front end on the DEX the best, but underneath they are all the Toyota bB and the rightful successor to the Scion xB Classic's spot in the line-up.

Right on. In some cases it's good for cars to get bigger(accord and camry) but scion's thing is small(and jdm). Whoever's in charge needs to get that through their head or it'll go the way of pontiac.

I think it's important to keep in mind that ALL sales are still down due to the beating the economy has taken. Add to that, the which-hunt for Toyota over the last 6 months and it's not surprising. My dealer salesman told me Scion sales were way down because Toyota is running 0% financing and people who would normally buy a Scion (parents of teens or young adults) are opting for the financing / Toyota name combo right now. Scion will soon be adding the iQ and I haven't seen the new 2011 tC's due about now. I think the new iQ is going to sell well for 2 reasons: 1) it's as small as the Smart car but made by Toyota and 2) it has a back seat. I suspect the tC will improve in sales considering it has 19 more HP but is better on gas. I personally LOVE the XB2 over the XB1, but I know I'm in the minority in this forum.

Take a look at the sales figures and compare the Scions to all the other models made by Toyota that are sold here. Yes, everything is down, but Scion more so than the many others.

The xB2 is an excellent machine, and I've recommended it wholeheartedly to folks I thought it would work well for, it's just not a City Car UUV (tiny footprint, tiny engine, lots of space), it's a Highway Cruiser - longer, lower, wider, more power - and an excellent bargain.

These are the UUV version, same size as the xB Classic but with a LOT of upgrades...

http://tijil.org/Toyota_Daihatsu_Subaru_UUV01.jpg

(Yes, those are all from the same factory and are the same vehicles except for nameplate and trim. I like the DEX front and the bB rear the best..)

Oh how I miss my 06' xb.. :/ I trade it in for a tc I wish i didn't do.. Maybe after I'm done paying my tc off I'll get an xb again but they need to bring back the square look to it.. I want my toaster back.. They also need to continue making XA's.. It's nice to have a hatch in the line.. I like that a lot.. I was gonna get that instead of my tc but they r nowhere to find coz it was discontinued after 2006.. XD is ok but not as appealing as the first three scions which is the tc, Xa and xb.. Oh how I miss my toasty.. :/

peer pricing is a killer, nobody wants to pay full price for a car in this economy

they want to feel like they are getting a good deal

Take a look at the sales figures and compare the Scions to all the other models made by Toyota that are sold here. Yes, everything is down, but Scion more so than the many others.

The xB2 is an excellent machine, and I've recommended it wholeheartedly to folks I thought it would work well for, it's just not a City Car UUV (tiny footprint, tiny engine, lots of space), it's a Highway Cruiser - longer, lower, wider, more power - and an excellent bargain.

These are the UUV version, same size as the xB Classic but with a LOT of upgrades...

http://tijil.org/Toyota_Daihatsu_Subaru_UUV01.jpg

(Yes, those are all from the same factory and are the same vehicles except for nameplate and trim. I like the DEX front and the bB rear the best..)


Why don't we have these?!?!
I mean really!

(I've bought fixed price/pure price since '83. Aside from the two Scions which are pure price, the rest of 'em were "fleet" pricing where all the numbers are on the table, and there was no need to haggle - the profit margin allowed was by contract. I much prefer that, and WILL NOT play the haggle game. A dealer has one opportunity to give me their best price. If I like it I buy, if I don't I walk.)

Scion sales are down???

It's probably those new Kia Soul commercials that are killing us!

I'm going to trade in my xB2 right now for one of those! :P

I've just fallen in love with the Dex. The BB2 looks nice but that grill on the Dex really adds a lot to the look. Toyota needs to stop with the whole "American Bigger is Better" way of thinking. The Tundra seems to double in size and the 4runner is starting to look like the Seqouia. We should've got the USDM version of the BB2 instead of our current xB2 should've instead been released as a Corolla Wagon.

Heh, with me it's not just the DEX grill, but those large, low-mounted fog and city lights. I'd really like to see something like that in the US market. I'd prefer it to be a Scion, but I'd take it if they called it George...

Heh, with me it's not just the DEX grill, but those large, low-mounted fog and city lights.

I agree,plus the blacked out lower valance looks nice too!

I blame fanboys for the demise of scion. Everyone became committing to the brand, wanting it to succeed. And being that the majority of us purchased a scion (or two), it became taboo to say anything negative whatsoever. And when retarded prototypes pop up and focus groups are conducted, everyone cheers with joy at the lopsided turds rather than critique them like we could. Toyota/scion thinks it's giving us what we want, but except for those foolish enough to part away with more of their money, many of us have and are moving on to other makes, all while nobody new is interested in the current offerings.

If you take a look at acura, it's the same thing that happened there. To this day, Honda/Acura fanboys swear the new NSX will be out soon and Acura will soon be a tier 1 luxury brand. And in reality, it is struggling to stay afloat. The last great Acuras was the previous gen TL type R (that got squashed in sales by competition), and the previous gen TSX. Now it's a choice of what badge you want on your Accord.

With scion, the tC was the sweet spot and the new one... Well we will see but mos of you knowy opinion on that. You can get square matrix/corolla wagon with a scion badge, and then there's the very weird dodge-inspired styling of the 1.8L reskinned Yaris...

let's be real here. scion's novelty has worn off. how long did they think they could get away with offering the same three vehicles?

changing the name of the car from xA to xD doesn't give you a brand new car. the xB refresh is still an xB. scion had some early success and then rested on its laurels.

the new tC is too little too late, but the iQ has a real chance at revitalizing the brand (assuming that gas prices increase).

I feel the lower sales numbers are a representation of the current economy. Many people are out of work and cannot afford a new car right now. Others are scared to take on additional commitments. Financing is still more difficult to come by than in the past. Many people who had older cars took advantage of the Cash for Clunkers program and are not in the market for a new car right now. The inflated sales numbers the program provided will make this years sales numbers look like they are down. Many of the US manufacturers were suffering from low sales last year due to fears of bankruptcy so it is easier for them to show huge percentage sales gains this year.

It was interesting to note that the latest sales numbers show that SUV’s are actually selling well. Those who are purchasing the 25k-30k + plus cars are probably older and making good money.

For the Scion brand the lack of promotional financing rates at near 0% I am sure is causing people to purchase other options. I agree with the comments that were made above.

The availability of the products on used car lots is another factor. When Scions came out you had to purchase them new, now there are a bunch of tC’s, xB’s, and even xD’s on used car lots. Let’s face it an 05 tC looks near identical to a 2010 tC. You can find a decent used tC for under 10k why pay close to 20k for a new one? The competition have updated their models over the last two years so you have a lot more options and features and styles compared to the dated tC. Another factor is you can get a lot for your money on used car lots these days. There are cars that sold for 30k + new a few years ago which are now priced under 15k on the used car lots.

I am waiting to see what the new tC will look and drive like.

i blame it on the latest rounds of rs tC's the last few have sucked

^ Your about the economy and a discouraged market are true, however, Scion sales have been down long before the economy hit rock bottom. The trend started RIGHT when the new models dropped. The tC sales kept things afloat, but sales for even the tC slowly tapered, as it is an aged model. Even Toyoda himself admits that Scion is neglected (but hey, some people swear they are the best thing since slice bread...) check it out yourself
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/05/toyota-boss-hints-at-big-changes-for-camry-revival-of-neglected-scion-brand.html.

The Cube is selling well and even the Kia Soul has sold 20,000, YTD, and that's a KIA, decimating xD sales. . .
http://www.subcompactculture.com/2010/06/may-2010-subcompact-sales.html

Heh, with me it's not just the DEX grill, but those large, low-mounted fog and city lights. I'd really like to see something like that in the US market. I'd prefer it to be a Scion, but I'd take it if they called it George...

Dang, I'd be all over that one for some reason...

Scion hit a double by providing us with very mildly tweaked versions of their JDM bB and Ist and then scored a run with an inexpensive sporty coupe. Unfortunately they then forgot their original stated philosophy of always introducing new vehicles, not just updating the old ones.

The xB got fat and Americanized but somehow kept the xB name. The xA got a light update and a new name. Both of these decisions were obviously driven by the marketing gurus and keep in mind that these gurus were the ones who got Toyota into the "grey zone" in the first place.

In the meantime, both Nissan and Kia hit the market with cars that were more like the xB1 than the xB2. I can't quite get around the look of the Cube, but I'll give the Soul a try when it comes time for our xB to go to college with our daughter.

Meanwhile, the xD has a tough-to-beat nemisis, the Honda Fit. It's a heck of a car for the same price and the Honda dealer may even feel the need to entertain a bit of haggling in the current economy. This is another car on my short list. I'm not fond of Fords in general, but the new Fiesta will also knock down xD sales.

For me the xB was a pleasant happenstance, the aligning of my needs and Toyota's desire to compete with the Element with minimal capital outlay. If the xB1 was still sold I would buy one. It isn't so I will go down the street.

Somebody brought up the question of how long Toyota could have gotten away with selling the xB1. I can think of another company that sold a basic, practical car and got away with it for 50 years. I don't think that Toyota could have done that well, but they could have done better than the few years they gave us with the xB1.

Yeah, in the letters I've sent to Scion recently, George, Ive mentioned that one of these days I may have to replace my xB Classic, and even though I would very much like to stay in the Scion family (or at least Toyota) they sadly don't have a single car that fulfills my needs, which leaves me with having to go to someone who does. :(

Scion created the UUV niche in the US market, but they've given it up to others without a fight.

peer pricing is a killer, nobody wants to pay full price for a car in this economy

they want to feel like they are getting a good deal
Agreed....
when I bought my car in january i wanted the rs 7.0 XB when I got the out the door pricing which they would not negotiate on I was at about 24,XXX
my 2010 VW Jetta TDI was 26,040 out of the door and had a sunroof....
so a little over 1k more for a car exponentially better? No brainer and they would not budge an inche even though they call me for every event to help promote it..loyalty hmmmmmm
Scion was a brand that offered utility and value with a flair for style....now???? I think you know the answer
my next Scion will be an old used one because no new are exciting
$14,200 base for an IQ NO THANKS

I'm surprised no ones already said this but its probably because of the number of cars already out there that are bringing down the sales. Hit up your local craigslist and chances are you could find a smoking deal on a used scion from a private party. Of course this kind of availability wasn't available the early years of scion & sales at dealerships were rocking. Scions is a niche market and its been saturated. Its losing the market to itself.

the Lexus numbers are down too btw

Also when scion first came out there cars were pretty unique over in the states..but the consumer has so many new options now that perform just as well, if not better than scions do..and I don't necessarily mean power or handling, things like capacity and mpg are factors as well. Now you have cars like the soul, cube, forte coupe, fiesta, fit and so on out there that kind of have that look that a lot of people got scions for in the first place.

As for Lexus - Toyota in general needs to win back public trust and Lexus just hasn't done anything new in a while and are falling behind..all the other luxury companies have releases newer, better, more competitively priced vehicles.

Yes all car sales are down. . . but it's funny how luxury cars (like Lexus) still manage to sell better than no-frills basic cars (like Scions). Technically if the economy was that bad (as many of you are saying), then opposite would be true, and luxury cars would be hit MUCH harder. Less people are buying cars, yes. But Scions have had bad sales for quite a while. And because Lexus' are not hit proportionately harder than Scions, it can be argued that the primary driving factor is NOT economic conditions, but the products/company/brand.

It's easy to dismiss things and blame the economy, but you know what? Good businesses that thrive do so not by blaming conditions and doing nothing, but rather they succeed by adapting to (ever and always) changing conditions.

And as for Lexus, all luxury makes tend to have long life cycles, as development costs are high. BMW is very good at doing subtle refreshes and updates though. The GS is pretty much at the end of it's life cycle, however the LS and the IS still have some ways to go before a new model is released. The HS is a joke, and the ES (bread, butter, and volume seller) and subsequent cousin RX will see a redesign as soon as the new Camry drops, which shouldn't be long either, but due to recent financial constraints, I could see them holding off just slightly longer on the Camry platform update.

Just checked on something today to satisfy my curiosity, and I think I may have another small reason that Scion sales (at least the xB2/xD) are down: Fierce competition.

Kia Soul with their 2.0L engine, automatic, 100,000 mile warranty, side air bags, fancy alloy wheels, low profile tires, fancy sound system with subwoofer, external amp, and satellite, carpet floor mats, cargo liner, bluetooth, audio controls, and cruise control on the steering wheel and all the usual other little extras out-the-door for under $5900 with Vanilla as a trade-in. All that with 0.0% financing

That's actually a Hell of a bargain (even tempting), especially since Scion no longer has something in that niche.

Bottom line is it's a deal that Scion can't match, and that Kia is pushing hard at.

Besides the Hamsters are cute and catch people's attention...

(I'd guess that is also in part why Kia has sold over 22,000 Souls so far this year, and the only Scion of a similar size has sold less than 4000...

http://www.subcompactculture.com/2010/06/may-2010-subcompact-sales.html

Well I guess I'll chime in here. I may be 21, but I've been in the Scion game since I was 15. Family is on our 3rd Scion.

Scion has taken a huge dive IMO. They have never been as strong as they were in years 2-4. The intro of the xB2 under the "xB" nameplate was a major fail. They tried to ride the coattails xB classic with something that was nothing like it. I like the xB2, as another vehicle, not as an xB. The xB2 is great for families and such, but is no where near the UUV the xB Classic was. It was especially salty back when the xB2 was introduced. People that have been here a while know. The xB and xA nameplate were supposed to be dropped for new names and new rides. xA: Check. xB: Fail. Would have been fine if the brought over the 3rd gen bB or stuck to a small, funky, utilitarian, platform.

I am right with Tomas, if we had the 3rd gen bB with the Dex front end (HOT FIYAH).

The xA to xD transition seemed close, but not on point. They could have done better.

The tC being out for 12,000 years is Toyota milking the cow for as long as they could. Dumb, but I understand why they did it. They needed to kill it earlier, but the climate at the time, I understand.

Their lack of focus on the owners (compared to the beginning) is understandable. The current climate makes it really difficult to spend all that dough, but they still try.

Scion will be hurting for a while. As much as I love the iQ, I don't see it selling as the xB Classic did for Scion's inception. I just can't see a sharp increase for Scion coming anytime soon.

I still don't see why Scion left a segment they did so much to advance. Why they went with bloated, big, and cars that blend in, I'll never understand. They needed to stay with small, useful, and funky/fun cars. They should have stayed with things that worked extremely well for them but they didn't. They listened to "prospective customers" rather than those that would "actually buy." I get comments all the time from people that tell me they would buy an xB Classic on the spot if they were still produced new. Or something like it. I know for a fact my pops would buy an xB Classic if they were still produced new (Folks are wary of buying used, don't ask me why).

Just checked on something today to satisfy my curiosity, and I think I may have another small reason that Scion sales (at least the xB2/xD) are down: Fierce competition.

Kia Soul with their 2.0L engine, automatic, 100,000 mile warranty, side air bags, fancy alloy wheels, low profile tires, fancy sound system with subwoofer, external amp, and satellite, carpet floor mats, cargo liner, bluetooth, audio controls, and cruise control on the steering wheel and all the usual other little extras out-the-door for under $5900 with Vanilla as a trade-in. All that with 0.0% financing

That's actually a Hell of a bargain (even tempting), especially since Scion no longer has something in that niche.

Bottom line is it's a deal that Scion can't match, and that Kia is pushing hard at.

Besides the Hamsters are cute and catch people's attention...
you have touched on a key component here and that is value... the Scion product is a great value any more...they lost the value savvy affluent customer which bought into their products early on....I can afford much more expensive cars than I buy however I always buy on value so the Scion originally attracted me....look who was buying it mostly at the onset of the brand being introduced...the blue hairs were all over it.

you have touched on a key component here and that is value... the Scion product is a great value any more...they lost the value savvy affluent customer which bought into their products early on....I can afford much more expensive cars than I buy however I always buy on value so the Scion originally attracted me....look who was buying it mostly at the onset of the brand being introduced...the blue hairs were all over it.

Actually that is incorrect. . . the tC has had THE youngest median buyer age of any car in the market, but the new xB and xD have been dragging that median age up for the entire brand.

Actually that is incorrect. . . the tC has had THE youngest median buyer age of any car in the market, but the new xB and xD have been dragging that median age up for the entire brand.
umm no ur wrong here it may have BUT the median age way off what they expected and when only the younger buyers were left behind......

umm no ur wrong here it may have BUT the median age way off what they expected and when only the younger buyers were left behind......

posting links on a phone browser is tough so I suggest a search, tons of sources online can verify that fact for the tC. If ur saying they didn't acheive what they wanted, that's a different and possibly valid point. But the tC undeniably had THE youngest median buyer age of any car for its time. That would suggest that it's not the "geezers" buying them. Gut feel and impressions don't hold a candle to statistics. When I get to my work tomorrow in about 8 hours, I'll post links for you.

Scions, more so the tC, may have a lower median driver age but most buyers tend to be older adults. Usually their parents. I see more older couples an people in xB's and xD's than youngin's.

I know I saw it somewhere, can't find it, but the tC is the youngest driven vehicle in the country. The median age was like 26-28. I tried finding the article, but I can't find it anymore.

Anyone blaming the economy, is blatantly retarded. It's essentially like this...
Person A : Scion sales are significantly down.
Person B : DERP ECONOMY DERP
Person A : Nissan and Kia sales are significantly up.
Person B logs out and never returns.

I just built a Soul + and an xD as equally as possible. Basically, the Soul+ had no extra options, the xD I had to add the armrest, handsfree, and 16's, since they're all standard on the Soul.

The xD:

Base MSRP $14,900
Del, Proc & Handling $670
Accessories $1,249
Grand Total $16,819


The Soul+:
Invoice - $14,590
Delivery - $695
Total - $15,285

$1500 more for the xD, and that's not even matching the warranty. To get a 10/100,000 warranty from Toyota, it's probably another $2,000. I'm going based off Subaru's pricing, as their best extended warranty is right around the $2,000 mark, and the 5/60 I bought for my WRX was actually less than the 5/60 I bought for my tC.

I could have left the xD with no options, and it STILL would be more expensive than the Soul, which offers more features and a better warranty.

So essentially, to equip the Soul+ and xD, it's roughly $3-4,000 more for the xD. That's why Scion sales are plummeting.

Scions, more so the tC, may have a lower median driver age but most buyers tend to be older adults. Usually their parents. I see more older couples an people in xB's and xD's than youngin's.

I'm can't find any stats on median driver age, but you are right that the stats do not account and distinguish between purchaser and user.

OK, couldn't wait so I jumped on my computer to fix the blatant misinformation going around. . .

Here are FIVE sources stating the tC as THE youngest median buyer (yes buyer, not driver) age:
http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=128798
the tC has the youngest median-age buyer -- around 25 -- of any vehicle in the industry.http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hatchbacks/112_0707_2008_scion_xb/index.html
More important to Toyota is the average age of the people who are buying: At 30, Scion tC (http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2010/scion/tc/index.html) buyers have the lowest median age in the industry, and the Scion brand isn't far behind.http://www.allbusiness.com/automotive/automotive-overview/9393902-1.html
The average age of the Scion buyer is 36, and 54% of the car's sales are to the under-35 set. That bests the youngest-selling car in America, the Volkswagen GTI,http://www.toyoland.com/scion/scion-2005.html
but the hot seller is the tC, which sells largely to younger buyers; the median age is 26. Overall, Scion's median buyer age is 34, the lowest median age in the industry; more than half the buyers are male, in an arena where 60% of sales are made to women.http://www.egmcartech.com/2010/04/01/2010-new-york-2011-scion-tc-unveiled-scion-iq-coming-in-early-2011/
Launched in 2004, the tC quickly became Scion’s top-selling vehicle, at the same time attracting the youngest buyer in the entire industry.And now it seems sales have taken a nose dive and median buyer age is skyrocketing. Hmmmm, whatever they were doing in the beginning, supposedly attracting those imaginary blue hairs, was working? I don't know.

But if you don't know anything about how stats work, if this model has the youngest median, it means that people who are younger than the data set simply are not in the market to buy a new car. If younger people are flocking to another model, it would skew the numbers, thus the tC would not have become the best seller for that demographic. If they were shooting to get buyers who were 5 years old, then they'd just be retarded. Because of the baby boomers out there, they will always any stat, thus who ever holds the lowest average and median will own the market. Their mission was to get the youngest buyers out there, and they acheived it (back when the original models were around). I don't think there is any way to force 5-year-olds to buy cars. . .

Oh yes, "derp derp economy derp derp." Sounds like half the posts I see defending poor sales of poor products. VERY well put. You made my day with that post.

I just built a Soul + and an xD as equally as possible. Basically, the Soul+ had no extra options, the xD I had to add the armrest, handsfree, and 16's, since they're all standard on the Soul.

I'd be willing to bet a large amount, that if you took a focus group and had them choose between the Soul and the xD (removing the logos and badges from the cars), the Soul would win in a landslide. It is my opinion that it is an infinitely better car. What Kia (parent company Hyundai) basically did, as they always have done in the past, was copy from success. Kia copied everything that was just sooo right about the xB1 and put it into the Soul. Scion decided to have "Montezuma's Revenge" all over the xB and re-released it as something completely different and unrelated. Nobody wants it and very few people are buying it.

Toyota (and other popular makes) have historically outsold the Koreans because they can afford to charge a premium for the reputation of reliability (whether or not they are better is besides the point). The fact that Mercedes and BMW cost significantly more than Lexus, does not mean that nobody buys BMW or Mercedes. However if you look at Lexus history, as sales went up, the price difference got smaller. Right now Kia and Hyundai have low prices because they have no choice. But once sales go up, expect the same thing to happen.

When Lexus first came out, the Lexus LS400 was $30k and a comparable Benz or BMW was at least $50k. Today, the top of the line LF-A costs well over $300k and a fully loaded LS600hL will nearly cost $100k.

posting links on a phone browser is tough so I suggest a search, tons of sources online can verify that fact for the tC. If ur saying they didn't acheive what they wanted, that's a different and possibly valid point. But the tC undeniably had THE youngest median buyer age of any car for its time. That would suggest that it's not the "geezers" buying them. Gut feel and impressions don't hold a candle to statistics. When I get to my work tomorrow in about 8 hours, I'll post links for you.
If you isolate the TC yes, bu remember it was late to the game

That's what he was saying all along, the tC was the youngest driven vehicle, not the Scion brand. The xB was a complete failure in terms of who bought it. They advertised it to the 18-25 market, it ended up having one of the oldest demographics on the market. It still sold, but not to who they planned on selling it to.

Actually the xB classic sold best to two groups, the young folks wanting an odd looking vehicle (something their parents hated instantly) that was practical yet easily customizable, durable, and inexpensive for what one got. The box their parents called ugly at the first glimpse was the perfect choice. :)

The other group it sold very well to was the old farts like me who saw the perfect City Car: Small footprint, amazing room inside, easiest car on the US market to get in and out of, efficient, excellent visibility, and again, inexpensive for what one got.

Eventually BOTH groups (and the third group, the commercial box people - florist delivery, customer courtesy cars, delivery, etc.) found that not only was the box inexpensive in first cost, but was one of the most reliable and cheapest to maintain vehicles in ANY market.

Then the Toyota US designers got involved and made an American version as the xB2 - longer, lower, wider, heavier, bigger engine, smoother aerodynamic lines, etc.

Oops. Great car but it tended to miss the mark - even the young person's parents liked it. It looked like it belonged. It wasn't quirky. It was much more refined, much more integrated into the flow of all the rest of the cars on American roads. It didn't excite those wanting something different in the same way the original did. :(

(I actually fit into a small subset of all the above: When I first saw the middle of a Scion commercial on Adult Swim while clicking by the channel, I saw this quirky looking little gray Tokyo City Car buzzing down an urban street and turning away from the camera and decided right then I wanted one. Didn't know who made it, didn't care. It would be mine. That was late 2004, and I bought Vanilla in January 2005. So I may be in the "Old Fart" contingent, but I bought the car because it was "different" in a way I liked. The design didn't speak to me, it SANG!)

Now I may be replacing it. I'd love to replace it with what is currently being sold around the world as the bB, COO, Materia, and DEX, because of much desired detail improvements like side airbags, but Toyota has chosen not to include the United States in that particular world wide market. There are very limited choices in the UUV market in the US, and none of them are made by Toyota (and the closest to the original xB Classic, the Nissan Cube, is overpriced and weird in ways that don't appeal for some reason - things like a dash with a toupee...).

http://tijil.org/Nissan_Cube_Toupee.jpg

I really don't want to leave the Scion (or even Toyota) family, but...

I am so happy I jumped ship. I've never been happier with a car than I have with my Subaru. I seriously regret not buying that bugeye back in 2003.

You're getting rid of Vanilla?

I may be. Wanna talk about a car in perfect condition, with only 27K miles, she's the one.

Heck, I'd even clip the stock grill back into her nose so she would look like she did new.

Dang, keep her! She's definitely not old. Get new tail lights and call her a different ride.

(I actually fit into a small subset of all the above: When I first saw the middle of a Scion commercial on Adult Swim while clicking by the channel, I saw this quirky looking little gray Tokyo City Car buzzing down an urban street and turning away from the camera and decided right then I wanted one. Didn't know who made it, didn't care. It would be mine. That was late 2004, and I bought Vanilla in January 2005. So I may be in the "Old Fart" contingent, but I bought the car because it was "different" in a way I liked. The design didn't speak to me, it SANG!)

Same here Tomas.

I was following the whole Japanese van scene for a long while when I was younger. I was bored and didn't want to study. I can't remember when I first found out that Toyota was bringing over the bB and ist under a sub brand, but I was stoked. I followed the brand release in CA in '03 then waited anxiously for the '04 East Coast release. I knew I had to have one, I just knew that it was the PERFECT car for me. May 24, 2004 my family bought a BSP xB. April 8, 2005 I got my RS2 and will never look back. She's my perfect car. All I want are more xB's.

I know for a fact my pops would buy an xB Classic if they were still produced new (Folks are wary of buying used, don't ask me why).

Umm, used cars whose original owners tended to be teens and twentysomethings...:shock:

OTOH, If I could find a 2005 xB with 20K miles owned by someone in Leisure World...

I was where you were at Tomas...mine had 127k miles though... i went I drove the new Scions was thinking I was gonna buy the new XB Rs 7.0...but the fact they could not guarantee when the car would arrive made me pause so I looked around.. and decided that if you removed the color I did not really love the car...now I have 10k plus on my new Jetta TDI....and I will buy a used Scion for a project fairly soon

As a 2 car Scion family, I wouldn't buy a new Scion or Toyota product. I have owned 8 Toyota trucks that I purchased new. To me (which is huge) Toyota Corp doesn't stand behind their warranty, their customers and they have inept service departments here in Arizona. One dealership forgot to tighten an oil filter on a XB after an oil change and he threw a rod. Dealership didn't want to cover the repairs. Couple that with this thread............http://www.scionlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188162

If I had to, I'd consider Nissan and Honda over Scion/Toy.

As a 2 car Scion family, I wouldn't buy a new Scion or Toyota product. I have owned 8 Toyota trucks that I purchased new. To me (which is huge) Toyota Corp doesn't stand behind their warranty, their customers and they have inept service departments here in Arizona. One dealership forgot to tighten an oil filter on a XB after an oil change and he threw a rod. Dealership didn't want to cover the repairs. Couple that with this thread............http://www.scionlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188162

If I had to, I'd consider Nissan and Honda over Scion/Toy.

I don't see how thats a problem with toyota, those dealerships suck but in my mind all car dealers suck regardless of brand.

Scions sales are down because now the market is alot more competitive compared to when they first launched. The xb was totally unique back then and the tc offered more in terms of style and features then any car in its price range. The tcs redesign is like 2-3 years late and the xd just isnt really cool. They ditched the xa and then replaced it with a boxier version the xd. There is a reason the first one didnt sell well. I have no idea why they'd go the same route. Scion is going to need to start offering more features and gadgets to make their cars shine again to the general public.

Also their "viral" marketing is starting to bother me as a car enthusiast. Their commercials make the cars out to be sports cars yet they get less and less sporty and appear to not care. When the tc first launched it was a slick looking decently sporty ride. They need to recapture that flare or the whole line up might as well disapear and mix in under the toyota marquee. RWD, FI, a sporty hybrid, or drop a 6cyl in it and they'd regain sales.

I loved my xb2 but once i got over the coolness of buying a new car I found myself trying to make up for its short comings.

I may be misinterpreting your statement, but you can't blame the market for becoming more competitive; it is something that should be assumed. You have to blame Scion for not staying competitive.

True. Markets get increasingly competitive, and any company wanting to stay in the game needs to at least keep up with the pack.

Actually, Scion (Toyota) seems to have forgotten what it was they said they were going to do, not just once, but many times. We remember even if they don't, and we are disappointed. :(

Bottom line, though, is Scion sales are down more than the average, and some other companies are eating Scion's lunch... We know it, Scion knows it, the other companies know it. Scion needs to pay attention and figure out where they went wrong. Until they do, they will miss those sales and lose customer commitment. When even I am looking outside the family for my next vehicle, something is wrong. :(

Yeah it is in no way the markets fault. Kudos for the rest of the pact catching up. Scion should get Toyota's "gsports" treatment. I find it scary that I have actually thought to myself "man that Kia or hyundai looks nice." The industry is on their toes and scions claim of being hip and edgy is quickly getting lost. I also don't think it would be aweful to ditch their pure pricing. With all the crazy lease deals and incentives other makes can offer that flat price doesn't seem so appealing. Yeah it was hassle free but I don't know about you guys but I wanted to negotiate on everything haha.

yup other makes are stepping up, offering so much better, improving quality.. well toyota didnt do anything or something that would make them standout.. same old typical toyota

Im still waiting for scion to bring out the scion xp. they said it would be out in 2010..WHERE IS IT :come: ? I have 20,000 dollars saved up for this model and if they won't bring it out a least make the first gen xb agian but ad all the good stuff the secound gen has with a sun roof op. .thats my 0.2 cents
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/chicken442/2010scionxp.jpg

OK, couldn't wait so I jumped on my computer to fix the blatant misinformation going around. . .

Here are FIVE sources stating the tC as THE youngest median buyer (yes buyer, not driver) age:
http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=128798
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/hatchbacks/112_0707_2008_scion_xb/index.html
http://www.allbusiness.com/automotive/automotive-overview/9393902-1.html
http://www.toyoland.com/scion/scion-2005.html
http://www.egmcartech.com/2010/04/01/2010-new-york-2011-scion-tc-unveiled-scion-iq-coming-in-early-2011/
And now it seems sales have taken a nose dive and median buyer age is skyrocketing. Hmmmm, whatever they were doing in the beginning, supposedly attracting those imaginary blue hairs, was working? I don't know.

But if you don't know anything about how stats work, if this model has the youngest median, it means that people who are younger than the data set simply are not in the market to buy a new car. If younger people are flocking to another model, it would skew the numbers, thus the tC would not have become the best seller for that demographic. If they were shooting to get buyers who were 5 years old, then they'd just be retarded. Because of the baby boomers out there, they will always any stat, thus who ever holds the lowest average and median will own the market. Their mission was to get the youngest buyers out there, and they acheived it (back when the original models were around). I don't think there is any way to force 5-year-olds to buy cars. . .

Oh yes, "derp derp economy derp derp." Sounds like half the posts I see defending poor sales of poor products. VERY well put. You made my day with that post.

It is late and I can’t sleep no offense to anyone but I had nothing better to do.
The above stats are not stats at all. They are statements and guesses and claims. Even with a standard deviation the range fluctuates from no number “youngest buyer”, to 25, to 36. This could be easily measured and provided by Toyota/Scion if they wanted. The youngest buyer is a fact, no need to guess here. As of now it is a claim. And the age will vary from year to year and could/may be averaged together.

Other factors also need to be considered such as scion was basically giving their cars away to people who really should not have had new cars. Again no offense to anyone but the credit terms used to obtain a Scion was ridiculous in my experience, opinion and from speaking with others. This was similar to the housing crisis if you could fog a mirror, had a pulse, and some money coming in you were approved. Other manufacturers could not compete. The nice thing with Scions is they do hold their value so if the cars came back to the dealer even a few months later they could resell them at close to the same price as a new one and many were on the lot at higher price points. So young shoppers who were looking around would get denied other places and approved at the Toyota/Scion dealer. No surprise on what make car they would take home.

For what you get I agree the prices are too high. I would rather pay a little more and get a Toyota, the fit and finish is of a higher quality or better yet a used Lexus.

I remember 3 or four years back when i spent most of my sophomore year and all of my junior year in high school researching cars and the scion tC was a level above all other similarly priced cars. The only car that even came close was the vw jetta but it doesn't come with alloy wheels in the cheap version and reliability is questionable at best. And when it came out such an upscale car(auto up down windows, power locks, mirrors, cruise control, and alloy wheels) for 17,000 was unheard of. Let alone the roof which could only be found on a few luxury cars and the digital hvac control was just plain cool. When the '08 refresh came out and had the iPod compatible radio and side airbags standard I was sold. Now other companies have caught up and the tC is still the same tC, the 2011 tC doesn't change enough to bring back the magic.

I also have a feeling that the new civic will destroy the tC and the mazda3 is already a better choice as a "chick car".

I dont really care honestly. I bought the car because I wanted the car, not because I cared about their sales numbers. It has proven to be a great car, I have zero issues, it can autox well with a small spend on mods, gets the mileage on the sticker, etc. Lots of kiddies didnt pay attention and didnt do their research, so they got all in a wad becuase it wasnt and sti, evo, etc(which .. other than performance.. I could care less.. wasnt shopping for a 4 door that looked so-so to me), so that hurt the image a little. Other than that, the new has worn off, so there is less attention on it which will affect sales to some degree. There are still only a few cars in the same price range that offer the same features, performance and reliability of it (the tC), so I would say they did ok designing it 6+ years ago :)

But in the end, I still like it, and will keep it when I buy the next cool thing most likely, so that is all that matters.

And I have heard more good than bad (besides the slew of ricer babies who get mad when the dealer wont replace their blown engine after seeing that it has lived on the rev limiter most of its life.. and some of the crappy dealerships out there) about Toyota taking care of customers that I know. Nissan????? Hardest problems in the world to fix when they occur and talk about impossible to get reliable info from Nissan themselves. My dad cringes when he sees them coming due to the fact he can rarely get reliable diagrams and schematics from Nissan. I have witnessed some of the worst laid out electronics on their cars as well as schematics that dont match anything under the hood. Not terrible cars, but their issues suck to fix.. and nissan isnt always so great at fixing them either.

The larger issue is that more and more of the dealerships are crap these days. They hire techs based mostly off of that ASE patch (they passed the test anyways...) rather than true skill, then train them to throw parts at the issue rather than fix it. Then lay on a layer of crookedness here and there and you have issues getting cars fixed of any make/model.

It is late and I can’t sleep no offense to anyone but I had nothing better to do.
The above stats are not stats at all. They are statements and guesses and claims. Even with a standard deviation the range fluctuates from no number “youngest buyer”, to 25, to 36. This could be easily measured and provided by Toyota/Scion if they wanted. The youngest buyer is a fact, no need to guess here. As of now it is a claim. And the age will vary from year to year and could/may be averaged together.

Statistics: "The mathematics of the collection, organization, and interpretation of numerical data, especially the analysis of population characteristics by inference from sampling." or "numerical data."
from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/statistics

Yes, they are statistics. Scion does it's own market research and data sampling. They ARE allowed to publish the results without publishing ALLLLLL the data that comes with it. . . since nobody would be interested in the data. It's for internal use only, which makes a lot of sense. The variation in age is easy to explain! The dates of the articles do not all coincide. Therefore it's plausible to assume that the data changes all the time. In fact, anytime a car is sold, it would change the dataset. In fact, for such a new car brand, each subsequent day would have a greater effect of statistical data than other car brands, possibly causing greater than normal swings in the data.

I also recommend you re-read the links I posted. Not all of them quote Toyota's claim. Some mention averages, some mention median age. They all are not going to post their source or their data set for you to analyze. . . they are publications, not college thesis's. And it's not like it's some wikipedia page or some kids blog.

And if you guys are happy with your cars, we're happy for you. Nobody is out to get you. We're simply discussing how sales are down and why they are down unproportionally from the rest of the market (which means demand is declining).

For the record I was very happy with my xA and my tC, which is why I bought them. But if I were about to purchase a car right now, I personally would not buy another one, given the offerings on the market. My argument is a bit moot, as I have moved overseas. But given the choice, I would likely opt for a Yaris 5-door 5spd (if available), which is closest to the original xA and xB. Other considerations would be the Fit, Mazda 2, Mazda 3, Fiesta, Focus, Golf, and the usual Korean cars (which everyone freaks out if mentioned).

But yeah, Engifineer, you are a smart guy and I have lots of respect for you, based off your posts. So yes, if you still love the (new) tC, then good for you. And yeah, I am a fan of the original tC too. . . I owned one. But all we are doing is acknowledging the fact that less and less people are buying Scions and the appeal is shrinking fast, and this is confirmed by sales numbers. Of course nobody buys a car based on sales numbers. But me? I believe that if enough people start shouting, they (Scion/Toyota) will listen. The problem is that most people on here are owners and take any negative comment as a criticism of their own purchase decisions, when it has nothing to do with that.

Here's a great link about just that,
http://gizmodo.com/5555953/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty
The Misconception: We prefer the things we own over the things we don't because we made rational choices when we bought them. The Truth? The truth is that you prefer the things you own because you rationalize your past choices to protect your sense of self.
The Internet changed the way people argue.

And thats why I dont shout and try to tell toyota anything :) If they dont make the product I am looking for on the next car, then I wont buy from them. That is what they hear, not a bunch of people on a forum shouting. Especially when half of those whining about the previous models (tC, xb.. all of them) have baseless arguments. The original offerings were exactly what they intended to be, no more, no less. And it worked for Toyota, hence the original sales. The Scion line has been great cars. If they stop being what people want, they wont buy them (myself included). I am not a brand fanboy, so if I dont buy Toyota next time it isnt like it is some earth shattering point I am making. I like my two toyota products and I like the trusty old saturn I have had forever (Which still has not let me down.. ever). I will probably be looking to replace it as a winter car at some point with an older toyota pickup (so not new). I will also be looking for a good project car for the track at some point as well. It will be RWD and buildable.. so again, not new.

As far as Kia and Hyundai, they have done nothing so far but prove the "initial" quality is up, which means nothing other than they will get peoples attention up front. They could be great cars, or the worst cars ever built as they were in the past, but the proof is in the pudding, aka when they start getting a few models that most drivers have put 100,000 + miles on without major issues. Judging quality of a car at 20,000 - 30,000 etc miles means it can live through its initial warranty.. not that it is a reliable car. So we will see. And if they make something I like that is worth a crap next time I am looking, then I would consider them.

And the quote above my post is as true as can be, especially for those that used to praise their Scion, bought something else, then keep coming back to bash how crappy Scion is and talk up their new ride. Never have I seen this so much than on this forum... but there is a high percentage of younger buyers on here, so that is to be expected I guess.

And poor sales do not equal a crappy product. They may equal a product that doesnt meet what that generation of buyers are looking for, but the product in and of itself could be just fine. Like I said, this car does everything it was meant to do pretty reliably so far. It may not fit the wants of the market now, and it should go if so and be replaced by something else. But any complaints that it is "Slow" are just stupid, for example, since it was obviously not built to be "Fast" (nor was any of its class). I think the dumbest thing buyers do is buy something based off an assumption that it is something it is not, even after a test drive, magazine tests, etc. IF you bought this car thinking it was a sports car, your thinking was the crappy part, not the car :P Not aimed at anyone in particular.. just observations over the years. It must suck to never be completely satisfied because of unrealistic expectations!

Just checked on something today to satisfy my curiosity, and I think I may have another small reason that Scion sales (at least the xB2/xD) are down: Fierce competition.

Kia Soul with their 2.0L engine, automatic, 100,000 mile warranty, side air bags, fancy alloy wheels, low profile tires, fancy sound system with subwoofer, external amp, and satellite, carpet floor mats, cargo liner, bluetooth, audio controls, and cruise control on the steering wheel and all the usual other little extras out-the-door for under $5900 with Vanilla as a trade-in. All that with 0.0% financing

That's actually a Hell of a bargain (even tempting), especially since Scion no longer has something in that niche.

Bottom line is it's a deal that Scion can't match, and that Kia is pushing hard at.

Besides the Hamsters are cute and catch people's attention...

Better value indeed. My mother actually bought a Soul and freakin LOVES it!

oh and I"ll say this again. Scion should have gone with the Fuse. You wanted to do innovative things right???

And thats why I dont shout and try to tell toyota anything :) If they dont make the product I am looking for on the next car, then I wont buy from them. That is what they hear, not a bunch of people on a forum shouting. Especially when half of those whining about the previous models (tC, xb.. all of them) have baseless arguments. The original offerings were exactly what they intended to be, no more, no less. And it worked for Toyota, hence the original sales. The Scion line has been great cars. If they stop being what people want, they wont buy them (myself included). I am not a brand fanboy, so if I dont buy Toyota next time it isnt like it is some earth shattering point I am making. I like my two toyota products and I like the trusty old saturn I have had forever (Which still has not let me down.. ever). I will probably be looking to replace it as a winter car at some point with an older toyota pickup (so not new). I will also be looking for a good project car for the track at some point as well. It will be RWD and buildable.. so again, not new.

As far as Kia and Hyundai, they have done nothing so far but prove the "initial" quality is up, which means nothing other than they will get peoples attention up front. They could be great cars, or the worst cars ever built as they were in the past, but the proof is in the pudding, aka when they start getting a few models that most drivers have put 100,000 + miles on without major issues. Judging quality of a car at 20,000 - 30,000 etc miles means it can live through its initial warranty.. not that it is a reliable car. So we will see. And if they make something I like that is worth a crap next time I am looking, then I would consider them.

And the quote above my post is as true as can be, especially for those that used to praise their Scion, bought something else, then keep coming back to bash how crappy Scion is and talk up their new ride. Never have I seen this so much than on this forum... but there is a high percentage of younger buyers on here, so that is to be expected I guess.

And poor sales do not equal a crappy product. They may equal a product that doesnt meet what that generation of buyers are looking for, but the product in and of itself could be just fine. Like I said, this car does everything it was meant to do pretty reliably so far. It may not fit the wants of the market now, and it should go if so and be replaced by something else. But any complaints that it is "Slow" are just stupid, for example, since it was obviously not built to be "Fast" (nor was any of its class). I think the dumbest thing buyers do is buy something based off an assumption that it is something it is not, even after a test drive, magazine tests, etc. IF you bought this car thinking it was a sports car, your thinking was the crappy part, not the car :P Not aimed at anyone in particular.. just observations over the years. It must suck to never be completely satisfied because of unrealistic expectations!`
1) I am not a kid
2) The Edsel was a good car
3) Scion made great cars
4) I put 150k on a Sonata and 127k on an XB
5) Scions were/are built well
6) here is to hoping things get better

Statistics: "The mathematics of the collection, organization, and interpretation of numerical data, especially the analysis of population characteristics by inference from sampling." or "numerical data."
from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/statistics



I agree with your definition "The Mathematics collection, organization and interpretation of numerical data" show me the math. We have no idea where the data came from. I have taken several stats courses for my Undergrad and Masters Degree. The numbers mentioned above are statements not backed up by math, research, or specific data. That is all I am trying to say. The fluctuations are also huge from 25 to 36 year old. I agree with you that most likely the tC had the youngest age group of buyers, but it would be nice to see or find official data. The data is the important part garbage in garbage out. The sad thing is Toyota can easily publish this but from the few minutes I took I could not find anything official.

I hope Scion can come up with some products to save the brand I like their approach and hope to purchase more vehicles from them, but if I can get more for my money I will shop around.

Better value indeed. My mother actually bought a Soul and freakin LOVES it!

I have had Kia products as rentals at first I did not even want to drive one, but after I did I realized the build quality is much higher than in the past. The Spectra in particular was comparable to a Civic. Two issues, The 100,000 mile warrantee is not transferable which sucks, and the depreciation is still horrible, but better than it was.

I agree with your definition "The Mathematics collection, organization and interpretation of numerical data" show me the math. We have no idea where the data came from. I have taken several stats courses for my Undergrad and Masters Degree. The numbers mentioned above are statements not backed up by math, research, or specific data. That is all I am trying to say. The fluctuations are also huge from 25 to 36 year old. I agree with you that most likely the tC had the youngest age group of buyers, but it would be nice to see or find official data. The data is the important part garbage in garbage out. The sad thing is Toyota can easily publish this but from the few minutes I took I could not find anything official.

I hope Scion can come up with some products to save the brand I like their approach and hope to purchase more vehicles from them, but if I can get more for my money I will shop around.

Yeah it would be nice to have the data, unfortunately most real world claims do not offer the data for us to peruse, which is common for stat claims. I was an Econ major in school with a minor in stats.

But fortunately, the insurance data (premium prices) would suggest the facts are online with their claims. I was just appalled that someone made a baseless claim that only "blue hairs" bought scions, when do data or claims support it. I'll take toyota's word that they did their research over someone's small and insignificant observations.

I can't tell you how many times I spoke to salespeople, club leaders and Scion corp. people that the Gen 1 and Gen 2 xB models are far apart and appeal to two different groups that have some but not much overlap.

Further, the Gen 1 xB, if slightly refined (better suspension and maybe a bit more horses under the hood,) rather than completely redone, was destined to become the 60s VW Beetle of the new generation in that it has a unique profile, a modest price and generates excitement.

What did corporate do? Did they refine it? - Nope! - They had a long term winner in their midst and they dropped it after only a few years.

I can't tell you how many times I spoke to salespeople, club leaders and Scion corp. people that the Gen 1 and Gen 2 xB models are far apart and appeal to two different groups that have some but not much overlap.

Further, the Gen 1 xB, if slightly refined (better suspension and maybe a bit more horses under the hood,) rather than completely redone, was destined to become the 60s VW Beetle of the new generation in that it has a unique profile, a modest price and generates excitement.

What did corporate do? Did they refine it? - Nope! - They had a long term winner in their midst and they dropped it after only a few years.

Well, the xB was merely the US market Toyota bB, and they did indeed refine it with the new bB that directly followed. http://toyota.jp/bb/index.html

The new one was the same size, retained the small exterior/massive interior design, and the same engine size (appropriate for a City Car/UUV), but added desirable features such as more sound deadening, better sound system layout, upgraded controls and features, side airbags, reclining/sliding rear seats, and a snappier design overall - actually appears to be the basis for the much larger Scion xB2 exterior design - in the smaller City Car niche.

They also expanded the distribution of that particular vehicle design boldly into the rest of the world, both left-hand and right-hand drive, under at least 4 different names. Except NOT in the US market where we got a considerably larger, heavier, bigger engined highway machine instead of the follow-on City Car.

As I've said many times, bring in the legitimate descendant (scion) of the original bB/xB and I would pre-order it tomorrow morning.


One of the current Toyota bB variants under one of its other names, the Subaru DEX...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca442e81kMg

ok I skimmed the majority of what has been said. And I really don't feel like quoting or directing. So I apologize, in advance, for any repetition. However I wanted to mention a few things

Ok the Majority of the arguments are that Sales have slumped due to the ecomomy. That is partly true. Because of waning sales, manufacturers have changed gears and were forced to create incentives that are extremely competetive. Even Toyota has kept up insane incentives that they normally would have stopped a few months ago. Obviously to revitalize the brand sales, due to the bad press. Even internal incentives forced sales people to flip Scion buyers into Toyotas. Normally this wouldn't have been done, or is not supposed to be done, but rather than possibly lose a sale to a kid and his family, why not appeal to the parents interest, than the kid's, to get them to buy a corolla over a tC. Unfortunately that has happened...A LOT!

Not to mention what other brands are doing. They jumped on the unique B segment cars that Scion had redefined, thus creating vehicles like the Soul, Cube, and Koup. Whereas the Soul is primarily an xB competitor, the overall perception of value IS better than the xD. However I don't agree that the Warranty is any better or worse. Afterall the dealer is going to push the "Extended" / "Full Coverage" Warranty on you, because as well all know, it isn't the Engine, Drivetrain, or Transmission we're worried about in today's cars. It's everything else. The electronics. And the Full Coverage Warranty would cover all the electronics and such. An 8yr/125,000 mile warranty MSRP's for $1700 for the xD/xB and $1925 for the tC. All things being equal in price, a dealership would still push the "Extended" So what good is this "Superior" warranty if they're still going to sell the Extended? And coverage would still vary per buyer. For instance what good is 10 years, if you're going to hit 100,000 miles in 6-7 years? What good is the warranty is you're going to lease, anyway? Etc etc. That's is why Toyota hasn't changed their bazse coverages, because it really doen't matter, because every situation may be different.

Now I have to talk about this because these 2 vehicels were mentioned. In comparo to the Soul, the xD has similar numbers. The Kia may be a bit more powerful, but they are a heavier vehicle, where the xD was meant to be a more economical choice, in the long run. (better MPG Soul = 24/30/27, xD = 27/33/30) However...Based on the Payment estimators:
Kia Soul+ Automatic is $16,890. The Scion xD with BlueTooth and 16" Alloys is $17,464. A different of $574. Then let's compare Warranties. All things being equal, assuming Kia offers a factory backed warranty upgrade, like Toyota (I couldn't find info on www.kiamotorfinancial.com (http://www.kiamotorfinancial.com)) And the warranty is, as stated before, at $2000 for a 10yr/100,000 mile coverage Versus Scion's 8yr/125,000 for 1700, a $300 difference. Both vehicles are now only a Total of $274 difference. Sure the Soul is bigger inside. But being that the price difference is $274, Scion is still the CR better buy, the more reliable brand, better retention in value, and will sell or trade better in the long run (was trying to do an Edmunds TCO, but everytime I'd select the soul, but nothing was availble...yet). AND it's better on gas! So now it's just subjective styling. But Scion Does offer a better College Grad/Military Rebate than Kia. BTW I did not add the Armrest because the Sould doesn't have one either.

Ok I rambled on enough. There is more that I have observed, but I have to get back to work.

I can't tell you how many times I spoke to salespeople, club leaders and Scion corp. people that the Gen 1 and Gen 2 xB models are far apart and appeal to two different groups that have some but not much overlap.

Further, the Gen 1 xB, if slightly refined (better suspension and maybe a bit more horses under the hood,) rather than completely redone, was destined to become the 60s VW Beetle of the new generation in that it has a unique profile, a modest price and generates excitement.

What did corporate do? Did they refine it? - Nope! - They had a long term winner in their midst and they dropped it after only a few years.

lol We've talked about this at length, before. If Scion squares the current xB design again, makes it slightly smaller. Keep the suspension, but maybe use the 1.8L engine, AND definitely change the fascia and grille! I'd be happy. However, looking at things, they'll probably go to the 2.5L that's coming in the new tC. I understand the want to not offer a 2.0, or whatever, that would be creating and producing a new engine and plant facility upgrades, etc...technically this would be cheaper. Unless they go with the 2.0L Boxster engine that will be on the FT-86 Platform. However, again, an expensive choice? I dunno. Subaru's current small platform engine IS the 2.5L CVT. Logic dictates the 2.5L Dual VVT-i. sigh...who knows. At the last Scion Sound Table this year we stated to the Corporate entities that they should consult with Those of us in the "Guru" status (Those who communicate with clubs, shows, attend and hold events, at least 3/yea, with tenure of 3years or more...oy) and the clubs. Get feedback from us! There was dissatisfaction with certain people, regarding the use of the "tC" name, AND the looks. Personally I like the looks. But the way they wanted to go, and while trying to keep costs down, still could have been accomplished, even while trying to refresh the line. I'm just saying.

They already have 2.0's, the 1TR-FE and the 3ZR-FE.

yes, which are, technically, older engines, and are not in the US market. And will probably have to be redesigned to meet new US EPA standards. And would have to be altered in some way in order to be matched to current Toyota engine and transmission configurations. (Do the 1.8L 2ZR-FE & the 2.0L 1TR-FE or 3ZR-FE share the same engine mounts? I don't know.) Then comes developement and tuning, adn reconfiguring of engine plants...yadda yadda bs. Although it does look like the 3ZR-FE looks like it could possibly be a re-stroked/upped displacement of the 2ZR. I do feel that the 2.0L should just replace the 1.8L, but who am I to say? The thing is how much would it actually cost to change everything? Just because an engine exists doesn't mean cars can be changed, just like that, right? so there would have to be time of evaluation, testing, modifications, alterations, plant changes, vehicle redesigns and reprogramming....grr...this is making my head hurt...blech....

yes, which are, technically, older engines, and are not in the US market. And will probably have to be redesigned to meet new US EPA standards. And would have to be altered in some way in order to be matched to current Toyota engine and transmission configurations. (Do the 1.8L 2ZR-FE & the 2.0L 1TR-FE or 3ZR-FE share the same engine mounts? I don't know.) Then comes developement and tuning, adn reconfiguring of engine plants...yadda yadda bs. Although it does look like the 3ZR-FE looks like it could possibly be a re-stroked/upped displacement of the 2ZR. I do feel that the 2.0L should just replace the 1.8L, but who am I to say? The thing is how much would it actually cost to change everything? Just because an engine exists doesn't mean cars can be changed, just like that, right? so there would have to be time of evaluation, testing, modifications, alterations, plant changes, vehicle redesigns and reprogramming....grr...this is making my head hurt...blech....

Yeah, the 1TR is ancient (relatively speaking). But the 3ZR is fairly up to date. And it's fully compatible with the ZR line. It's offered as the "premium" engine in the Corolla's for the Thai market. Transmission wise, I have no idea what it's paired with. Corolla's here are also available with the 3ZZ (1.6L version), 2ZR (1.8L), and the 3ZR (2.0). Furthermore, the xD (based on the Yaris platform) and the Yaris (not in this market) itself are available with the 2ZR engine. So there is some sort of compatibility there. Whatever it is, I'm sure it can be adapted to whatever platform they choose. The Yaris is the basic underpinnings of the Vios, Platz, Ist, bB, and a bazillion different configurations of the same car.

The US based xB2 and tC use the 2AZ (Camry/Avensis platforms) which (to my knowledge, but I haven't checked) does not have any of these engines I talked about available.

But back to the point, if they did as you mentioned, kept the platform on the original base, and dropped in a 2ZR, they'd have a winner. A 3ZR would be even better, but it probably wouldn't fit. You know, if the xD didn't look so much like a Dodge Nitro, it would be a massive hit. Just look at the Versa. . . and that engine sucks (imo)!

ok I skimmed the majority of what has been said. And I really don't feel like quoting or directing. So I apologize, in advance, for any repetition. However I wanted to mention a few things

Ok the Majority of the arguments are that Sales have slumped due to the ecomomy. That is partly true. Because of waning sales, manufacturers have changed gears and were forced to create incentives that are extremely competetive. Even Toyota has kept up insane incentives that they normally would have stopped a few months ago. Obviously to revitalize the brand sales, due to the bad press. Even internal incentives forced sales people to flip Scion buyers into Toyotas. Normally this wouldn't have been done, or is not supposed to be done, but rather than possibly lose a sale to a kid and his family, why not appeal to the parents interest, than the kid's, to get them to buy a corolla over a tC. Unfortunately that has happened...A LOT!

Not to mention what other brands are doing. They jumped on the unique B segment cars that Scion had redefined, thus creating vehicles like the Soul, Cube, and Koup. Whereas the Soul is primarily an xB competitor, the overall perception of value IS better than the xD. However I don't agree that the Warranty is any better or worse. Afterall the dealer is going to push the "Extended" / "Full Coverage" Warranty on you, because as well all know, it isn't the Engine, Drivetrain, or Transmission we're worried about in today's cars. It's everything else. The electronics. And the Full Coverage Warranty would cover all the electronics and such. An 8yr/125,000 mile warranty MSRP's for $1700 for the xD/xB and $1925 for the tC. All things being equal in price, a dealership would still push the "Extended" So what good is this "Superior" warranty if they're still going to sell the Extended? And coverage would still vary per buyer. For instance what good is 10 years, if you're going to hit 100,000 miles in 6-7 years? What good is the warranty is you're going to lease, anyway? Etc etc. That's is why Toyota hasn't changed their bazse coverages, because it really doen't matter, because every situation may be different.

Now I have to talk about this because these 2 vehicels were mentioned. In comparo to the Soul, the xD has similar numbers. The Kia may be a bit more powerful, but they are a heavier vehicle, where the xD was meant to be a more economical choice, in the long run. (better MPG Soul = 24/30/27, xD = 27/33/30) However...Based on the Payment estimators:
Kia Soul+ Automatic is $16,890. The Scion xD with BlueTooth and 16" Alloys is $17,464. A different of $574. Then let's compare Warranties. All things being equal, assuming Kia offers a factory backed warranty upgrade, like Toyota (I couldn't find info on www.kiamotorfinancial.com (http://www.kiamotorfinancial.com)) And the warranty is, as stated before, at $2000 for a 10yr/100,000 mile coverage Versus Scion's 8yr/125,000 for 1700, a $300 difference. Both vehicles are now only a Total of $274 difference. Sure the Soul is bigger inside. But being that the price difference is $274, Scion is still the CR better buy, the more reliable brand, better retention in value, and will sell or trade better in the long run (was trying to do an Edmunds TCO, but everytime I'd select the soul, but nothing was availble...yet). AND it's better on gas! So now it's just subjective styling. But Scion Does offer a better College Grad/Military Rebate than Kia. BTW I did not add the Armrest because the Sould doesn't have one either.

Ok I rambled on enough. There is more that I have observed, but I have to get back to work.
where is the value for the 10/100,000 drive train standard versus the 3/36,000? eliminated the extended warranty because it skews what is real.. Nobody buys that crap anyway if they know they are doing. How can you quantify resale value as the Soul is too new? Don't base it other models because they are not relevant.
A better comparison is the Soul versus the XB2...Soul kills it
Also the better XD comparison may be versus the Forte sedan or 2011 Optima possibly?
either way if they had a version of the new bB here I would be driving it today instead of my jetta tdi

(I've bought fixed price/pure price since '83. Aside from the two Scions which are pure price, the rest of 'em were "fleet" pricing where all the numbers are on the table, and there was no need to haggle - the profit margin allowed was by contract. I much prefer that, and WILL NOT play the haggle game. A dealer has one opportunity to give me their best price. If I like it I buy, if I don't I walk.)


^^ hey Tom... I know this post of yours was from a few weeks ago now, but when I came across it.. I had to quote it. I could NOT agree more. That's how I like doing business with vehicle purchases. All the cards on the table, I know what the vehicle I'm looking to purchase is worth, evaluate the condition (if not new) of their vehicle, how much they are asking for it, and how much I'm willing to pay after considering all the facts/factors. If the deal works great, if not, I take my business elsewhere. It doesn't get any more simple then that. Their time is valueable, my time is valueable, so no need in wasting either. IMHO.

Purchasing a vehicle (especially from a dealer) isn't anywhere near the rocket science they want you to believe it is.

The US based xB2 and tC use the 2AZ (Camry/Avensis platforms) which (to my knowledge, but I haven't checked) does not have any of these engines I talked about available.

But back to the point, if they did as you mentioned, kept the platform on the original base, and dropped in a 2ZR, they'd have a winner. A 3ZR would be even better, but it probably wouldn't fit. You know, if the xD didn't look so much like a Dodge Nitro, it would be a massive hit. Just look at the Versa. . . and that engine sucks (imo)!all decent points for the different configurations offered in different parts of the world. Just wanted to to stick my 2 cents on the Versa comment on the end there... I have to agree. I actually drove one of those one time to test it out... I'll never complain about the rpm's being higher in the Scion/toyota 4 cyl. motors after that lol... got the Versa up to about 50 mph and that motor sounded and felt like there were 2 squirrels under the hood that just got their tails lit on fire. lmao

No problem on the old comment, Mouse, it still makes sense.

As part of my keeping up with what is currently available to me should something bad happen to Vanilla, I've hit a Scion, a Kia, and a Nissan dealership over the past two weeks to check on possible replacement vehicles.

The Nissan and Scion dealerships were predictable. Nissan was totally wed to the whole "let's see what we can do for you" barn dance, and was unable to even give a firm price without running back and forth to the tower (I walked, as I told them I would ahead of time). The Scion dealership was as simple as buying a quart of milk: I told them what I wanted, they told me what it cost. Done.

The Kia dealership (CarPros) was interesting. I told them I didn't haggle, that I gave a dealership one shot at giving me their best price, and if they pulled out a "four square" sheet, I'd tear it in two and hand it back. The salesman immediately put his four square back in the desk, invited me to come to the tower with him and got the best offer, in writing, and gave it to me - one shot (and it really was a very, very good offer). The manager even deciphered some of the coding in the random numbers at the bottom of the page for me, which included not only profit margin, but the $472 hold-back amount the dealer would eventually get.

Dealerships CAN sell things at a single honest price, but they don't like to - it cramps their style and eliminates the opportunities to confuse the customer into paying more than they should.

(That Kia Soul was tempting - price was great, and included features were head and shoulders above the others. Sadly, it was still a Kia. HOWEVER, if something killed Vanilla, I'd be joining the Kia Hamsters, driving a Soul...)

No problem on the old comment, Mouse, it still makes sense.

As part of my keeping up with what is currently available to me should something bad happen to Vanilla, I've hit a Scion, a Kia, and a Nissan dealership over the past two weeks to check on possible replacement vehicles.

The Nissan and Scion dealerships were predictable. Nissan was totally wed to the whole "let's see what we can do for you" barn dance, and was unable to even give a firm price without running back and forth to the tower (I walked, as I told them I would ahead of time). The Scion dealership was as simple as buying a quart of milk: I told them what I wanted, they told me what it cost. Done.

The Kia dealership (CarPros) was interesting. I told them I didn't haggle, that I gave a dealership one shot at giving me their best price, and if they pulled out a "four square" sheet, I'd tear it in two and hand it back. The salesman immediately put his four square back in the desk, invited me to come to the tower with him and got the best offer, in writing, and gave it to me - one shot (and it really was a very, very good offer). The manager even deciphered some of the coding in the random numbers at the bottom of the page for me, which included not only profit margin, but the $472 hold-back amount the dealer would eventually get.

Dealerships CAN sell things at a single honest price, but they don't like to - it cramps their style and eliminates the opportunities to confuse the customer into paying more than they should.

(That Kia Soul was tempting - price was great, and included features were head and shoulders above the others. Sadly, it was still a Kia. HOWEVER, if something killed Vanilla, I'd be joining the Kia Hamsters, driving a Soul...)

Cool Tom...

I hear ya on the Scion dealer. I've bought my last 2 tC's brand new from my local Toyota dealer I've built a solid business relationship with over the past 15ish years. I've lived other places, but I've only bought new Toyotas/Scions from them. I'm out of the norm, like you, I also tend to keep my vehicles longer than the average person. Buy'em, take care of'em, pay'em off, and then they pay me back. I walk into my local Toyota/Scion dealer, bought my 4x4 Tacoma brand new from them. 8-9yrs later, 100k + on the odometer... so well maintained you could eat off the engine. I walk in to buy my first Scion. The owner himself comes down, says "hi", knows me, tells the salesman to give me full retail price for my truck and give me a good deal on the new one. Doesn't get any easier then that. lol.

That's cool to hear that you had a positive experience with the kia folks.

Only bad thing that has followed kia that I've seen is they claim to have the industry's best factory warranty... well technically that's true... but the other side is tons of customers that when it came time to needing warranty work done, they had to go though miles of red tape and jump through hoops to get kia to honour it.
I am a fan of the "Hamstars" as they call them. The commercials are just too damn funny. Especially the newest one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfJnqbudMzs
Granted some of it is a dig at some Toyota/Scion models... but still funny as hell to watch IMHO.

Meanwhile, the xD has a tough-to-beat nemisis, the Honda Fit. It's a heck of a car for the same price and the Honda dealer may even feel the need to entertain a bit of haggling in the current economy. This is another car on my short list. I'm not fond of Fords in general, but the new Fiesta will also knock down xD sales.

I have to tell you that I test-drove a Fit, a Mini Cooper S, and an xD. I bought the xD.:eek:

The Fit was just too slow. It was quicker than my xA, but most things were. (turtles, trees, continents...) :eyebrow:

The Mini Cooper S felt like it might take my head off if I didn't put the headrest up to maximum height. But, everything I read indicates that it is about as reliable as a Chevy (best to bring a mechanic on any long trips).:P

The xD is nimble, with the TRD sway bar, and, with the TRD exhaust, nice and throaty. The 0-60 seems pretty good (better than the Fit, for sure). I wouldn't out-drag the Mini S, but after a 1/4 mile the Mini's engine would probably detonate.:nails:

As for this peer-pricing stuff I'm seeing, I don't know what everyone's complaining about. I got a 2.34% interest rate at the DEALER. You read that right...they got motivated enough to check with other lenders while I waited. Plus, they tossed in a couple of options for free (no installation charges on any of the laundry list of options I installed, incidentally).:rolling:

Bottom line: you've got to know how to negotiate. :icon_twisted: Pure price is a myth that they try to hide behind. The salespeople need the sales. Make it clear that you're interested, but also really, really, stubborn, and you'll get a good deal.

When it all boils down, the xD is very competitive, it's basically the 1.8L yaris available in other markets. The ONLY gripe I have is it is very ugly (just my opinion, backed by extremely low demand). As evidence, the much more attractive (and POS) Versa is flying off the dealer lots... It's that stupid scion family
Grill/front facia. It's
hideous! Thrown some
cosmetic mods and the xD can be beautiful.

Take a look at the sales figures and compare the Scions to all the other models made by Toyota that are sold here. Yes, everything is down, but Scion more so than the many others.

The xB2 is an excellent machine, and I've recommended it wholeheartedly to folks I thought it would work well for, it's just not a City Car UUV (tiny footprint, tiny engine, lots of space), it's a Highway Cruiser - longer, lower, wider, more power - and an excellent bargain.

These are the UUV version, same size as the xB Classic but with a LOT of upgrades...

http://tijil.org/Toyota_Daihatsu_Subaru_UUV01.jpg

(Yes, those are all from the same factory and are the same vehicles except for nameplate and trim. I like the DEX front and the bB rear the best..)


Bring the DEX to the states!!! make that a scion... I'd drive that over a Kia soul or Nissan cube any day.

People complained for years wanting jdm or euro cars... Toyota started the trend, sold a ton, and went back to their old program. Now ford is bringing the fiesta, Honda has the fit, and soon there will be more options than we know to deal with. But we have the iQ... That's a start I guess

A grocery cart holds more than the iQ, though, so while it is a cute (and very nicely done) City Car people mover, it isn't that great as a City Car Utility Vehicle.

Ya know, Toyota should get ahead of the rush and trademark City Car™, Urban Utility Vehicle™, and UUV™ so that they OWN those terms - then bring 'em on. :)

iQ and DEX would be great as the iQ City Car™ and the xB UUV™ ...

Oh, well, I can dream. *sigh*

(As it sits right now, today, if some idiot ran over Vanilla, I be driving a Kia Soul by the end of the week. Toyota has nothing to sell me.) :(

Tomas, buy another 1gen. I've got a spare engine, spare transmission, spare ECU, spare heater core, and now a spare 2004 xB :biggrin:. This car is going to see 500k miles, though it might take a few rebuilds to get there.

As for this peer-pricing stuff I'm seeing, I don't know what everyone's complaining about. I got a 2.34% interest rate at the DEALER. You read that right...they got motivated enough to check with other lenders while I waited. Plus, they tossed in a couple of options for free (no installation charges on any of the laundry list of options I installed, incidentally).:rolling:

Check your invoice, and I bet the base xD was still $16,370 (assuming 2010 w/ auto trans). Pure price ONLY applies to the Scion as it comes off the dock. Anything dealer installed, dealer warranted or dealer financed is open to negotiation. I went to my local toyota to try and pick up my second xB and asked about financing. I'm lucky in that Navy Federal Credit Union is across the street, so any financing they'll match if you bring in the quote.

Tomas, buy another 1gen. I've got a spare engine, spare transmission, spare ECU, spare heater core, and now a spare 2004 xB :biggrin:. This car is going to see 500k miles, though it might take a few rebuilds to get there.

Sadly I can't stock up on spare cars and parts, nor can I depend on there being a "like new" xB Classic sitting around for sale should I suddenly need to replace Vanilla. I'm apartment dweller and can neither store nor work on old cars... (Heck, being disabled I can't even change my own oil these days, and I miss being able to do all my own maintenance.)

Besides, the newer version of the bB has improved features and functions that the xB Classic does not, starting with the side airbags and improved rear seating features...

http://tijil.org/materia_03.jpg

Some of us are pretty much stuck with the new car market - one car and it MUST work.

Tom

Maybe we'll git it in 2012, a year before it goes out of production in Japan like they did with the 1gen. I drove a rental Soul, it's smaller than it looks, and has a LOT of hard plastic. Felt like a Chevy.

Would be a new xB or maybe the Hyundai Tuscon if I was in the market for another box, possibly the Cube Krom edition.

Nissan Juke should be a competitor......

Nissan Juke should be a competitor......

Competitor to what?

I don't see the size specs yet, just some info from pre-production Euro models, but it looks cramped and access looks like a fail... :ponder:

EDIT: I found sizes, it's larger than the xD outside and appears to have less space inside.

Competitor to what?

I don't see the size specs yet, just some info from pre-production Euro models, but it looks cramped and access looks like a fail... :ponder:

EDIT: I found sizes, it's larger than the xD outside and appears to have less space inside.
but awd and turbo for just a bit more costs

http://www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2011/Nissan/101276782/20330393-E.jpghttp://www.edmunds.com/pictures/VEHICLE/2011/Nissan/101276782/20339731-E.jpg

I can't tell if I like or hate that.

A face only a mother could love...

kinda like the Xb1 sentiment

looks like an Infiniti EX mated with a Pontiac Aztec

looks like an Infiniti EX mated with a Pontiac Aztec

LOL. Every car that's even remotely ugly gets compared to the aztec.

I've seen gloveboxes with bigger openings than the rear hatch on that...

Seriously, it was designed to be fashionable rather than functional. Some folks like that, some folks prefer a more "form follows function" design.

That's one thing I really like about the xB Classic: It is totally unapologetic for being a box with big openings. It was designed to carry things, not to be fancy. It's totally honest about what it is and what it does.

(With the suicide half-doors on the Juke, I wonder if they got around the problems of the front seat shoulder belts having to be unlatched and the front door opened to get someone in or out of the back seat like on the older Honda Element. Used to amuse me to watch one gal taking her kids to the school near where I used to live, and having to unfasten everything, get out of the car, walk around to the passenger side, open the front door then the rear door to let her kids out on the non-traffic side every morning - especially in the rain, the reverse the whole thing before she could drive away all soggy.)

LOL. Every car that's even remotely ugly gets compared to the aztec.

Well, one does have to admit that the Aztek is pretty much the "Gold Standard" in car ugly... :shock:

Seriously, it was designed to be fashionable rather than functional. Some folks like that, some folks prefer a more "form follows function" design.

That's one thing I really like about the xB Classic: It is totally unapologetic for being a box with big openings. It was designed to carry things, not to be fancy. It's totally honest about what it is and what it does.
sad part Tomas is I don't see any cars coming pout that are even close to original XB... if there was I would write a check for it today

Yeah, I think on the scale of car beauty, it pretty much goes:

2001 Pontiac Aztec 0 <---------------------> 10 1955 Mercedes 300SL Gullwing

Wiki for those who are curious:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Aztek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_300SL

I still remember when that MB Gullwing first came out. Most of the other kids were all hot and bothered over the new 'Vette, for me, though, it was the MB 300SLR and Stirling Moss driving the Hell out of it and winning the 1955 Mille Miglia race.

ETA: Spotted this recent pic of a crashed MB 300SL, and though I mourn the loss of the 300, I was amused by the comments...

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/ttac-hearts-wrecked-exotics-top-ten/300sl_110902_001/

Read up that it had Mechanical fuel injection, first production car to do so, now that's just crazy.

not quite but one of the very first
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_injection

My bad, ment to say first direct injection, like what Ford JUST started doing last year in the Ecoboost turbos. Only 58 years behind the Germans.

Back to Scion though, with two xB's, one just rolling over 100k, I'm debating if it would be worth it to trade the higher-mileage one in. I'm waiting to see the iQ in person, the 100k xB is my commuter now so I'd want something similar. Honestly nothing else impresses me from the Scion line-up. The new xB feels like it sits lower and I hate the lack of viewing angle on the c-pillar, and if I get a 2-door may as well be better mileage. For the price of the new tC, I'd bump up to a Genesis R-Spec. The xD is already small, so may as well go smaller and save some $$, get better mileage.

Of course the other option is always to drive it until the motor breaks, then put the rebuilt one waiting in the wings in, and keep it rolling. Already have a spare trans w/ 20k on it too, so should be good for a LOOONG time, unless the other one with the turbo needs it first.

My bad, ment to say first direct injection

Wrong again. First sports car to have direct injection. MB had it in two other production vehicles in '52.

Model|Jun '10|Jun '09|% Change|2010|2009|% Change
SCION xB|1,775|1,869|-5.0|9,852|11,566|-14.3
SCION tC|1,137|1,446|-21.4|6,462|8,775|-25.9
SCION xD|833|946|-11.9|4,693|5,741|-17.7

Wow carbon's picky today. I put up a wall of text and nothing about all the Scion stuff?

Wrong again. First sports car to have direct injection. MB had it in two other production vehicles in '52.
Umm wrong at least when you correct somebody...be correct:icon_mrgreen:
1932 MB

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_260_D
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/260D.jpg/250px-260D.jpg

Yeah, I think on the scale of car beauty, it pretty much goes:

2001 Pontiac Aztec 0 <---------------------> 10 1955 Mercedes 300SL Gullwing

I'm not sold on the idea that the Aztek is the nadir of automotive beauty. It has quite a few competitors, such as the Subaru Tribeca:

http://images.intellichoice.com/images/AutoShows/Big/2007_subaru_tribeca.jpg

And the Isuzu Vehicross

http://www.khurak.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/isuzu-vehicross.jpg

Just saying, it IS on Time's 50 worst vehicles of all time, and pretty much every ugliest car list to date. The front end may not be too bad, but that rear quarter with the Prius glass hatch / truck, VERY bad idea.

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/brandnewday/Pontiac-Aztek-2002.jpg

AMC Pacer, Matador

Wait, the xB outsells the tC? I defiantly see more tC's and you would think it would be more popular because it looks "normal."

Wait, the xB outsells the tC? I defiantly see more tC's and you would think it would be more popular because it looks "normal."

Yup, the "shaker and mover" in the Scion line-up is the xB...

The tC isn't that far behind, though... :P

Yup, the "shaker and mover" in the Scion line-up is the xB...



And always has been. When the Xa & Xb were first released, Toyota had projected the Xa would outsell the Xb in the US. Silly mortals. Can you say Xb by 2 to 1?

Just saying, it IS on Time's 50 worst vehicles of all time, and pretty much every ugliest car list to date. The front end may not be too bad, but that rear quarter with the Prius glass hatch / truck, VERY bad idea.

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/brandnewday/Pontiac-Aztek-2002.jpg

The Honda CRX had that rear end long before the Prius:

http://www.cardata.com/spoilers/images/RT_Spoilers/DR-810_Honda_CRX.jpg

And always has been. When the Xa & Xb were first released, Toyota had projected the Xa would outsell the Xb in the US. Silly mortals. Can you say Xb by 2 to 1?

I don't think that they really thought that one through. I think that the idea was that the xB would get gen-Xers into the dealer and then the xA would win out because it had more conventional styling. Little did the marketing wonks consider the pent-up demand for a functional vehicle among both gen-Xers and greybeards.

This thread depresses the hell out of me. For awhile Scion was, like, the best thing ever.

I remember the first time I saw a Scion commercial in a movie theatre (it was the transforming cars one), and I literally did not know what I was looking at. My reaction was "What the hell IS that? Is that a CAR?"

After being anally violated by my Chevy Blazer for 3 years, a vehicle which is good at taking 4 people offroading and nothing else, the first year with my xB was honestly hard to believe. The cargo space was incredible. The gas mileage was incredible. The mods I could do were incredible - anything you could think of! The attention was great - I was being stopped at gas stations and truck stops so people could ask about my car. And nothing broke - ever! It just kept running and running and running!

At first, I didn't even want the car. I hated it, in fact. I bought it because it was perfect on paper, and because it made economic sense...and I was broke after owning that Blazer. I would catch sight of it in the driveway walking through my house and actually stop what I was doing in shock. Like...I paid money for that? But after a year, I was madly in love with it. Still am.

Now the offerings from Scion are just depressing. The tC is still a good car, if you're in the market for a 2-door Camry, but the xD could be a lot better, and the xB2 is just a pathetic imitation of its predecessor. And the marketing is trying SO HARD to compensate for nerfing everything the xB1 was amazing at, it's just sad.

So now I'm looking at Subarus (YAY 26 MPG 9_9), the Mazda5 (quirky and small, gosh I hope it runs for awhile), and the pile of pathetic xB1 imitations on the market (the Cube is overpriced and the Soul is...a Kia).

If MY needs had changed, I could understand why the replacement is less perfect for me. But with sales tanking and dozens of voices calling for Toyota to simply resorb Scion...come on. How long does it take to notice you f----d up?

But I suppose Toyota has bigger problems right now.

Still. SADFATS. :6

Tomas, if you sell Vanilla, I'm going to cry.

Wait til the new MK6 Vw Jetta comes out! Sales will go down even farther!

nicely equipped Jetta for 16k that looks like an AUDI

Volkswagen is going BIG..Watch out Toyota!

VW CEO has said he plans to take worlds top selling Toyotas #1 spot by 2016. They are #3 now and close to passing GM!

VW has consistently dominated sales in the youth demographic. Honda had a good run in the late 90's, but have since lost touch with the planet Earth.

I am a big fan of VW and their upscale interiors (buying a compact car should not mean you have to settle for a cheap interior), but am somewhat unsold on their reliability and ease/cost of maintenance. I know it has improved, but I'm not sure I trust them enough to sink my money into one yet, but it seems that the market seems to be able to overlook this.

Now that I moved to Thailand, I bought a Yaris (also because VW's are subject to an import tax of 200-300% and the Yarii are built here). But had they had a non-taxed product available, I would have definitely taken a serious look at a Golf. The VW Scirocco is also very sweet but sells for nearly $USD100k because of tax, as do Mini's, yet they are everywhere here.

We have a A.S.E.A.N. built Ford Fiesta, and it's going to do VERY well here. Unfortunately, the Suzuki Swift and Mazda2 became available a month after I bought my Yaris, and the Fiesta will be available in a month here. I know that I would have easily taken the Swift or the Fiesta, and would have considered the Mazda2. The Toyota line up as well as Scion (if it was available here) is completely unappealing. I took the Yaris based on price and my personal (good) experiences with the platform. But with the onslaught of new cars, they are just not competitive whatsoever. Heck, people pay nearly $USD 100K to import JDM 2nd gen bB's, and I actually would consider doing the same too. The new bB (the real one) is that cool, IMO. It's not too small, it's not weird. It's friggin awesome. Been in one, driven one, and I love it.

I have 16k on my new jetta TDI is months and it is rock solid and upgrade over anything Toyota offered in the 25k price range...Toyota has some work to do

^ As you can tell, I like VW. But I'm sorry, but even a Chinese Geely or Cherry can easily do 26k miles without issue. I want to see 80k, 150k, 200k, 400k miles. I easily did over 300k miles on a Lexus LS400 with nothing but oil changes. Back in the late 90's, many of my friends had VW's, and they all spent more time in the shop than in the road. I'm not saying they're still bad now, because they've probably improved. I'm just saying I don't know how much and am uneasy about it.

Check this out (it's not my car), but this video features 400,000 miles in 3 years time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnTlNLz9Iqc

VW is no joke now.. Since mk5 and now mk6 they have been very reliable

and they hold the best resale value in almost every class!

I'd take a Jetta or Golf TDI over a Prius anyday and i'll still have more torque and get better fuel milage then a gheeyyy ugly prius.

Not to mention cost of owning a TDI would be a lot cheaper in the LONG RUN.

A toyota will never feel or drive like a VW in autobahn highway speeds

Shut a car door on a Toyota,Honda,Mazda and hear a Tinny like sound then shut a door on a Volkswagen and her a solid thump.


VW IS COMING BACK!

early to mid 2000's VWs have fascinated me with their reliability. Anywhere you look there are fanboys saying they are more reliable than a rolex but there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary. Typical conversation:
-so how reliable has your 2002 audi been
-it's great, most reliable car ever
-has anything broken?
-Not much, the water pump went and then the a/c condensor needed to be replaced.
-And how much did that cost?
-$1500(on an 8000 dollar car)

Meanwhile I have a 1996 corolla that hasn't had anything break(ever).
There was a time when vw offered a 10/100k warrantee but those days are gone. Maybe the new one's have improved but there hasn't been enough time to tell.

And according to edmunds a 5 year old civic is worth about $700 more than a jetta (base jetta vs. civic lx).

This is just listing the top three best and top three worst - the extended details by brand tell more - and newer VWs don't come out all that great. I like 'em, but one has to face up to higher maintenance costs than many other brands...

http://tijil.org/auto_reliability.jpg
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/used-cars/reliability/used-car-reliability/most-and-least-reliable-used-cars/most-and-least-reliable.htm

Another list. What amazes me about this one is the highlighted column showing the percentage these vehicles had out of ALL vehicles... Ouch!

http://tijil.org/auto_troubles.jpg
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/used-cars/reliability/used-car-reliability/ten-years-of-trouble/ten-years-of-trouble.htm

early to mid 2000's VWs have fascinated me with their reliability. Anywhere you look there are fanboys saying they are more reliable than a rolex but there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary. Typical conversation:
-so how reliable has your 2002 audi been
-it's great, most reliable car ever
-has anything broken?
-Not much, the water pump went and then the a/c condensor needed to be replaced.
-And how much did that cost?
-$1500(on an 8000 dollar car)

Meanwhile I have a 1996 corolla that hasn't had anything break(ever).
There was a time when vw offered a 10/100k warrantee but those days are gone. Maybe the new one's have improved but there hasn't been enough time to tell.

And according to edmunds a 5 year old civic is worth about $700 more than a jetta (base jetta vs. civic lx).
my 86 Audi 5000s btw biggest POS ever
took me 14 yrs to buy another VAG product

Tomas I agree with higher costs associated with VW ownership however the trade off for me was MPG's and ride quality and interior build quality and first 36,000 miles maintenance covered..this was to offset ownership costs i assume....I should have bought 2 XB 1's as there is no substitute

VW is no joke now.. Since mk5 and now mk6 they have been very reliable

and they hold the best resale value in almost every class!

I'd take a Jetta or Golf TDI over a Prius anyday and i'll still have more torque and get better fuel milage then a gheeyyy ugly prius.

Not to mention cost of owning a TDI would be a lot cheaper in the LONG RUN.

A toyota will never feel or drive like a VW in autobahn highway speeds

Shut a car door on a Toyota,Honda,Mazda and hear a Tinny like sound then shut a door on a Volkswagen and her a solid thump.


VW IS COMING BACK!
there quality is much better than it was but they still have issues my 2010 TDI is a hybrid of mkV/mkVI designs

my 86 Audi 5000s btw biggest POS ever
took me 14 yrs to buy another VAG product

Was it black? And did you ever have problems with the A/C?

you guys keep mentioning VWS from 10-20years ago..This is 2010 new generation!

Mk5 and Mk6 are reliable. YOU GUYS ARE BIAS

Toyota has been using the same engines for years they haven't changed anything! they use sheet metal on doors and panel and a cheap looking plastic interior! They have no soul

VW Has just boughtout Porsche.

Porsche
Audi
Bentley
Bugatti
Seat

all VAG!

you guys keep mentioning VWS from 10-20years ago..This is 2010 new generation!

Mk5 and Mk6 are reliable. YOU GUYS ARE BIAS

Toyota has been using the same engines for years they haven't changed anything! they use sheet metal on doors and panel and a cheap looking plastic interior! They have no soul

VW Has just boughtout Porsche.

Porsche
Audi
Bentley
Bugatti
Seat

all VAG!

This is exactly what I was talking about. The new VWs have not been around long enough to prove their reliability. And as recently as a year ago I've heard storys of NEW VW's having gremlins in their radios.

And toyota has replaced most of their engines over the past couple years.

I may be Back In A Second but you sir are the one that's biased.

@Sciond: did you have issues with sudden unintended acceleration? lol

Heheheheh... Most of the folks on ScionLife.com know which pedal does what, Vlad... :P

(Only legit cases of the vehicle deciding to go open throttle, or refusing to come down from open throttle on me over the past 49 years of driving were a Plymouth Barracuda Coupé <throttle cable assembly problem - recalled> and a Jeep Cherokee <factory wiring harness error - quietly fixed by a factory tech>. No problems at all with the eight Toyota's I've owned.)

you guys keep mentioning VWS from 10-20years ago..This is 2010 new generation!

Mk5 and Mk6 are reliable. YOU GUYS ARE BIAS

Toyota has been using the same engines for years they haven't changed anything! they use sheet metal on doors and panel and a cheap looking plastic interior! They have no soul

VW Has just boughtout Porsche.

Porsche
Audi
Bentley
Bugatti
Seat

all VAG!

I didn't say anything yet. . . I didn't say they were bad. . . just that I'm not completely sold. I want to see something like the Top Gear Tacoma/Hilux torture test. . . or the 400k mile Yaris (and plenty of others in that range on yaris forums), million mile accords. . . there is sooo much evidence of reliability from the proven brands; more so than a handful of idiots not knowing what neutral is. And most of those cases ended up being bogus, as well as that famous study on TV. They later admitted that just about every vehicle in production subjected to the same conditions had the same results.

I'm willing to wait a bit longer, but like I said, I am a big fan of VW group and what they are doing. I still can't get over how ridiculous their parts and service pricing is though. . .

Any car can last 400k..what you know what these owners spent on parts to keep it going...You know every little thing that goes on in their life..come on haha!!

believe it when it happens to yourself! anybody can write bullcrap and photoshop and change odometer easily.

Yeah. . . my Lexus hit over 300k with nothing but oil changes. . . and there are plenty of documented Yarii and the survey/stats data supports it.

But yes, any car (I suppose) could hit 400k, but it's about being realistic here. It's not really an argument if you consider replacing the engine every 20k miles to be reliable.

The general rule (for driving a car until its death) is that most owners replace the car as soon as the cost of repairs exceed the value of the car.

Personally out of the 29 cars I've owned, I've only run two of them much beyond 100K - a Volvo P122 and a Ford Escort hatch that both approached 200K before I sold 'em.

That does not mean the cars I had wouldn't have gone farther (I still see that Escort on the road), it just means I tired of them.

@Sciond: did you have issues with sudden unintended acceleration? lol
not in the audi but in my T-bird SC actually I had no floor mats in it and no peddle confusion...feet were off the pedals but I did own it in NJ... maybe they painted my nightmare

Was it black? And did you ever have problems with the A/C?
no dark blue and yes AC problems among many others....my fave was when the drivers seat got stuck in recline all the way down after a date.......

you know what is even scarier than owning a VW? my wife want us to buy a Caddy SRX or Audi Q5

July did not come out much better. Far worse actually.

Model|Jul '10|Jul '09|% Change|2010|2009|% Change
SCION xB|2,299|2,838|-22.0|12,151|14,404|-15.6
SCION tC|1,294|1,939|-35.7|7,756|10,714|-27.6
SCION xD|1,060|1,976|-48.3|5,753|7,717|-25.5

Do you know if those numbers count the 2011 model year xB sales as well?

Do you know if those numbers count the 2011 model year xB sales as well?

Yes, the numbers are based on month sold rather than model year...

I'm sorry but Toyota could cut Scion tomorrow and I would not care in the least. I do not have any money invested with Toyota Motors nor am I employed with them. I think a lot of people here are looking at the brand from an enthusiast POV and the sad part is Toyota has no reason to care what we think. The average Scion buyer at the most might buy some stickers for their car and that is it. With the increased supply of used Scions and the release of new (and in some cases better) competition it is only natural to see a decline in sales.

Was reading yesterday that the numbers for July 2010 are a bit misleading because our "cash for clunkers" program started in July of last year... so there may have been a surge of sales of small cars (even Scions) starting in July of last year - which would make this year's July numbers look a bit off...

Was reading yesterday that the numbers for July 2010 are a bit misleading because our "cash for clunkers" program started in July of last year... so there may have been a surge of sales of small cars (even Scions) starting in July of last year - which would make this year's July numbers look a bit off...

That still doesn't change the fact that the year to date sales are down ~23% for the company.

Well no... but it at least makes Scion numbers possibly not as bleak as they really appear to be (and probably still are despite CFC).

^ the point about cash for clunkers program is valid, however, Hyundai and Ford are both doing well. Both companies have turned 180 degrees from 10 years ago. But in most cases, competition benefits the consumers. And I know Toyota is feeling the hurt. The iQ was a step in the right direction, although it will never be competitive price wise. If they brought the iQ over, there is a possibility they may wise up and bring the (real) bB over. IMO, it would compete well with the Soul, Cube, and Fiesta.

^ the point about cash for clunkers program is valid, however, Hyundai and Ford are both doing well. Both companies have turned 180 degrees from 10 years ago. But in most cases, competition benefits the consumers. And I know Toyota is feeling the hurt. The iQ was a step in the right direction, although it will never be competitive price wise. If they brought the iQ over, there is a possibility they may wise up and bring the (real) bB over. IMO, it would compete well with the Soul, Cube, and Fiesta.

Pretty sad that Scion now should be looking to compete with the Soul and Cube... well, sad and ironic. :)

The iQ does have potential, but if they're going to be selling that tiny thing for more than $13k, it won't do too well, IMO.

Well, the soul is killing it in sales, and the cube (in japan) has always been in the same segment. Scion basically abandoned the segment... They gave us the xD, but it's styling and interior is not up to par. If they redesigned it, the xD would attract a lot more customers. The yaris chassis it's based on is perfect. But to ignore these competitors would be making the same mistake Mercedes and BMW did when they ignored Lexus. Yes, definitely ironic!

sad.... sad sad sigh....i am still holding onto the hope the bring us something fresh and innovative ...but losing hope...

Well, the soul is killing it in sales, and the cube (in japan) has always been in the same segment. Scion basically abandoned the segment... They gave us the xD, but it's styling and interior is not up to par. If they redesigned it, the xD would attract a lot more customers. The yaris chassis it's based on is perfect. But to ignore these competitors would be making the same mistake Mercedes and BMW did when they ignored Lexus. Yes, definitely ironic!

The inside of the Cube and Soul is nothing special, the clean fit and finish of the xD is one reason why I purchased one over a Cube/Soul. Also to be honest I doubt the Germans are really that concerned with Acura or Lexus, their main competitor in the domestic market has always been Cadillac not the Japanese.

The inside of the Cube and Soul is nothing special, the clean fit and finish of the xD is one reason why I purchased one over a Cube/Soul. Also to be honest I doubt the Germans are really that concerned with Acura or Lexus, their main competitor in the domestic market has always been Cadillac not the Japanese.

Ummmm. . . you show a huge lack of knowledge about cars if you think that. In the USA, Lexus has been the top selling luxury make for the past 10 years up until recent months. Both BMW and Mercedes lost significant market share to Lexus. However, Cadillac sales aren't even a blip on the radar. But yes, nobody cares about Acura. . . but I didn't mention Acura, did I. . . or even Infiniti.

I'm sorry but Toyota could cut Scion tomorrow and I would not care in the least. I do not have any money invested with Toyota Motors nor am I employed with them. I think a lot of people here are looking at the brand from an enthusiast POV and the sad part is Toyota has no reason to care what we think. The average Scion buyer at the most might buy some stickers for their car and that is it. With the increased supply of used Scions and the release of new (and in some cases better) competition it is only natural to see a decline in sales.

This sort of post shows the failure of Toyota's Scion experiment. The goal was to bring in Gen-Y customers and reverse the greying of Toyota's buyers. Initially it did a good job of that because Toyota was actually selling cars that appealed to Gen-Y. Unfortunately at this point they managed to turn success into failure by abandoning the edgy and successful JDM-based cars in favor of American bloat and blandness. The _really_ sad thing is that they actually went out of their way and spent extra money to create the xB2 that is being outsold by the Soul and Cube.

Many of the people who bought xAs and xBs in '04 through '07 (myself included) are ready for a new car and what does Toyota have to bring them back into the Toyota/Scion showroom? The offerings at Honda, Kia, and (shudder) Ford will be far more attractive to those buyers.

The inside of the Cube and Soul is nothing special, the clean fit and finish of the xD is one reason why I purchased one over a Cube/Soul. Also to be honest I doubt the Germans are really that concerned with Acura or Lexus, their main competitor in the domestic market has always been Cadillac not the Japanese.

I disagree. I test drove both of these cars before I bought my xB2. The Soul offers a higher degree of goodies for the same price and has a decent interior/exterior. The Cube was a pleasant surprise on the interior and I would have bought it except the anemic engine and excessive wind noise were deal breakers for me. The Soul was a tad too small, suffers from an interior that scratches very easily and I was scared to death of the resale value.

Well, the soul is killing it in sales, and the cube (in japan) has always been in the same segment. Scion basically abandoned the segment...

I wouldn't say Toyota is abandoning Scion as evidenced by the iQ coming out earlier than expected. And to be fair, the Soul is crushing everyone in the niche segment. Some of that is due to where they are in the sales bell curve. It's newer and fresher than the xB. Also Hyundai's reputation has gotten a huge boost in the last couple of years as they are the fastest growing car company in the US currently. That said, I believe Toyota does need to innovate a little quicker for the Scion line and can not let products get stale due to who they are marketing to: Young people who like to have the latest and greatest "in" look. It's a lot different than a regular Toyota buyer who doesn't suffer from "must have the newest car" mentality.

I wouldn't say Toyota is abandoning Scion as evidenced by the iQ coming out earlier than expected. And to be fair, the Soul is crushing everyone in the niche segment.

Actually, the argument is not that Toyota is abandoning Scion, but that Toyota and Scion together have abandoned the niche they created singlehandedly in the US with the xB Classic to the likes of Kia and Nissan by having no follow-on City Car in the UUV category for the people who's original xBs are needing replacement.

If one needs to replace one of the original xBs for whatever reason, there is nothing in either the Scion or Toyota lineup that is a tiny, roomy, utilitarian, small-engined, utterly reliable Utility City Car class vehicle. Those wanting/needing that class vehicle end up leaving Scion and Toyota for a Kia Soul or Nissan Cube.

Scion as a "feeder brand" to entice new buyers into the Toyota family ONLY works if there are logical follow-up vehicles in each class for the new users to move to when ready.

If they don't have those follow-up vehicles on-line and ready, they lose that new customer and have wasted all that effort.

They do not have those vehicles in the United States.

http://tijil.org/Toyota_Daihatsu_Subaru_UUV01.jpg

If one needs to replace one of the original xBs for whatever reason, there is nothing in either the Scion or Toyota lineup that is a tiny, roomy, utilitarian, small-engined, utterly reliable Utility City Car class vehicle.

Hmmmm... perhaps our definition of "tiny, roomy, utilitarian, small-engined, utterly reliable Utility City Car" is different because I just leased a 2010 xB2 that meets that criteria. The Cube is pretty similar in size. (it's taller) and I bought my xB because it drives the best out of the three. It's the quietest, has the best engine and is the most masculine of the 3... By far! Plus I can tow with it! Tiny and roomy are oxymoron's and it's hard to pull that off in a car. I happen to think Toyota has done a great job on the xB2. I passed on an xB1 and went for a Honda Element because the xB1 was too small. Personally, the xB2 is 100% improvement over the original and I find it fascinating that the xB1 crowd (for the most part) has not accepted the change!

Hmmmm... perhaps our definition of "tiny, roomy, utilitarian, small-engined, utterly reliable Utility City Car" is different because I just leased a 2010 xB2 that meets that criteria. The Cube is pretty similar in size. (it's taller) and I bought my xB because it drives the best out of the three. It's the quietest, has the best engine and is the most masculine of the 3... By far! Plus I can tow with it! Tiny and roomy are oxymoron's and it's hard to pull that off in a car. I happen to think Toyota has done a great job on the xB2. I passed on an xB1 and went for a Honda Element because the xB1 was too small. Personally, the xB2 is 100% improvement over the original and I find it fascinating that the xB1 crowd (for the most part) has not accepted the change!

Yes, our definitions are different.

(The Cube, BTW, is the same size as the xB Classic.)

In looking for a city car one does not need a lot of power, one wants it very economical in city stop-and-go. Points there for the 1.5L as opposed to the 2.5L engine.

One also wants a very small footprint to get in and out of tight city spaces. Points there to the foot shorter xB Classic.

Most of the other details that make the xB a "City Car" and the xB2 more of a freeway car pretty much come from those two design decisions. Things like being 600 pounds heavier and more overhang.

Don't get me wrong, overall the xB2 is a more versatile, more comfortable, more deluxe vehicle than the original xB, and better for more people in purely practical terms.

For urban dwellers, though, the original xB with it's small footprint, city gearing and small engine, reasonably tight turning circle, excellent view, and spacious interior FOR IT'S SIZE is arguably a better choice.

I've recommended the xB2 to a number of people (though most of 'em ended up comparing them to even fancier and larger Crossovers or SUVs, and going for the big plush iron), but I'm not talking about "is the xB2 good or bad," or "is the xD good or bad," or even "is the tC good or bad." What I am specifically referring to is the City Car, the Urban Utility Vehicle, the vehicle most suited to tight confines and low speed stop and go.

Toyota/Scion had it with the original bB/xB, the rest of the world, both right and left hand drive continues to have it with the newer Toyota bB, but Toyota/Scion no longer supports that niche in the US, they have moved on with a better vehicle, but one in a different class, the xB2.

Quite honestly, if I wanted something bigger I'd probably get an xB2. Since I don't, I have no idea where I'll end up when the need comes. It just will probably not be Scion or Toyota.* :(

Tom

* I've had 8 Toyota made vehicles. I like them.

here is to hoping the bring us something like Tomas describes I need a 3rd vehicle and I am hoping something comes along from scion to match my XB1

Toyota/Scion had it with the original bB/xB, the rest of the world, both right and left hand drive continues to have it with the newer Toyota bB, but Toyota/Scion no longer supports that niche in the US, they have moved on with a better vehicle, but one in a different class, the xB2.

Quite honestly, if I wanted something bigger I'd probably get an xB2. Since I don't, I have no idea where I'll end up when the need comes. It just will probably not be Scion or Toyota.* :(

That's it. It's as if Toyota said "Hey, we lightly tweaked a JDM vehicle for the US market and it's been selling like hotcakes for three years! We're making a lot of money without significant development costs! What can we do to screw that up?" :roll:

That's it. It's as if Toyota said "Hey, we lightly tweaked a JDM vehicle for the US market and it's been selling like hotcakes for three years! We're making a lot of money without significant development costs! What can we do to screw that up?" :roll:
they must have said " we hate those folks who bought those cars, lets isolate them and make them go buy Nissan's, Kia's and other brands"...we are loathed by Scion:lalala::tap::ponder::mad::flame:

...and they took the name from our little boxy City Car and put it on the whale. :(

I mean, c'mon... the xA was the Japanese Market "ist" and when they changed it to the new model ist when it came out they changed the name here from xA to xD.

When the xB came out it was the Japanese Market "bB" and when they decided not to bring in the new model bB, but instead bring in the Camry Rumion Wagon, they stuck the name from our little city cars on it.

I guess they wanted to be SURE we noticed we didn't count.

Corolla Rumion that is....which is actually worse

Corolla Rumion that is....which is actually worse

Ugh. Sorry. I thought it belonged in it's big sister's group. :(

I know this discussion was relevant three years ago when the 2nd generation bB and xB were new, but it's over. The second generation bB will never come over here. If my 1st generation xB were hit by another car I'd get a Nissan Cube, other hipster shoppers with less income/credit would probably the Kia Soul.

When the xB came here the closest competition was the Honda Element, which was several thousand more expensive and a higher class with 2.4L and all wheel drive option. Nowdays the 2nd generation xB is closer to that. By the way the Element was never a smashing success either.

For Toyota to introduce another 1.5 or 1.8L box-on-wheels today would put a three year old design against 2 other vehicles, quite the opposite back in the day when xB simply filled in the Scion brand for lack of vehicles to sell and for however many cars it sold did not fit the brand based on the purchasers.

The demise of Scion has everything to do with the xB2 and not the economy. The xB2 was DOA.

The xb became the face of the brand, odd, unexpected, etc. Scion lost that in the redesign.

Scion also lost their cool, which is their own fault.

I know this discussion was relevant three years ago when the 2nd generation bB and xB were new, but it's over. The second generation bB will never come over here. If my 1st generation xB were hit by another car I'd get a Nissan Cube, other hipster shoppers with less income/credit would probably the Kia Soul.

When the xB came here the closest competition was the Honda Element, which was several thousand more expensive and a higher class with 2.4L and all wheel drive option. Nowdays the 2nd generation xB is closer to that. By the way the Element was never a smashing success either.

For Toyota to introduce another 1.5 or 1.8L box-on-wheels today would put a three year old design against 2 other vehicles, quite the opposite back in the day when xB simply filled in the Scion brand for lack of vehicles to sell and for however many cars it sold did not fit the brand based on the purchasers.

The second gen bB was the first gen xB.

Are you seriously counting a headlight lens refresh from frosted to clear as TWO distinct generations?

Are you seriously counting a headlight lens refresh from frosted to clear as TWO distinct generations?

Probably not, if you are referring to the bB - they are probably looking at the different OEM bumper shrouds and different rear hatch sheetmetal, among other things. :)

Yeah, there was only 1 generation of the original bB, a model refresh ith revised bumpers and lights does not count as a new gen. Otherwise the tC would be going on it's
3rd generation with that logic...

I'm lost with all this talk .......

I'm lost with all this talk .......

Don't blame you, since the first generation of the bB was never imported and is therefore invisible to us.

It is interesting to compare what the Scion division of Toyota said that they were going to do and what they actually did.

They said that they were going to market cars for a period of about four or five years after which those vehicles would be replaced with new models with completely fresh designs and different names.

What they did was reuse an old name (xB) on a completely new vehicle in an entirely different size class and to give a new name (xD) to a slightly-facelifted old design.

I guess that shows the regard they had for their target market.

maybe not a huge impact on sales but heres what I have seem with scion... Not sure about in your area but the local dealership rarely has a scion on display where you can see it without searching for it. Since scions came out, I can probably count on 2 hands how many times a scion car was on out display where you can see it from the street. I pass the dealership almost daily... Of the current models, I have seen 1 tC on display... all the rest of the cars are tucked at the back of the lot behind all the toyotas where you physical have to get out and go look at them....

If Toyota quits making the Matrix, will this help Scion xD sales? Also, I had already purchased my 2010 xD, but while they were installing the arm rest, I went and sat in a 3 door Yaris that my dealer had brought inside. While I would not have a 3 door, I was really impressed with the better seats that the Yaris had. You have to admit, though, that the Scions are smart in only having one color interior for each one as this keeps their prices down. But black? It will really be difficult for me to keep these seats clean. Still yet, I like the pricing of the Scion xD, the gas mileage, and, I like the looks. My salesman told me that, after I called him and said that I was getting overall 36 mpg or a little better, that helped him sell another Scion a day or two later. Better color selection would help, I think, too. The dealer I purchased my dark gray one from had the new 2011 Amazon green color, but I thought it was pukey, no pun intended. They also had the new Xpresso color, but I believe I would tire of that easily; and, I was looking at keeping the cost down, so I chose the cheapest they had on the lot that was an automatic. But I hope that the sales of the Scions will improve. I see very few used ones except the older xBs here in the Southeast.

Getting rid of any compact car in Toyotas lineup would probably help Scion. The Matrix is a badass car :tongue:

I agree with the previous comment about the Matrix, but felt that Toyota made a mistake by changing it from the 2004 edition. My son has a 2004 XRS and it's a wonderful car! But the newer models do not have the fuel efficiency and appear to be smaller.

I'm shocked to see the comments showing love for the old xbs , Toyota changed the style for a reason, reason being they were hideous, I love the shape they added to it. And hope they don't go back to the traditional box

Are you shocked by how disproportionally sales went down for the xB? If so, then that makes sense. But they did go down. Maybe those people don't know what's good for them. Maybe you have different tastes than the original enthusiasts who rocked the sales charts and made the xB1 fly off the selves.

If I were Toyota, I wouldn't give two squats what the xB2 owners think. I'd listen to the droves of people who bought tons more cars and gave them more revenue and market share. This is in no way to diminish your car or your tastes, I'm just stating what I would imagine a shareholder's opinion would be. I wouldn't care if the xB1 was made of pancakes and horse dung, if it sold like crazy, I would want to build more. And I wouldn't care if the xB2 was built out of golden angel genitalia, if it sold as well as a Pontiac Aztek. None of those statements are in any way shape or form, facts. They are my sarcastic attempts at humor.

Scion went from an Apple like brand to a Dell with the redesign of the xB. Practically overnight. Major miscalculation by them and the result is in the poor sales and lack of foot traffic in their showrooms since the xB2 was intro'd.

As per the ever infallible wikipedia:

Calendar Year US Sales
2002 n/a[26]
2003 6,936
2004 47,013[27]
2005 54,037
2006 61,306
2007 45,834
2008 45,220
2009 25,461
2010 20,364 [28]

Scion managed to halve their sales, though they can find some cover from the economy, internally they know they lost the cool factor with the xB2 and simply do not have an answer to the Cube nor Kia.

Toyota was extremely smart when they created Scion, how they got so stupid so quickly is beyond me.

I love my 2005 xB, no it doesn't have heated seats nor anything luxury, but it can fit a ton of stuff in it when I need to, and on the rare occasion I need to haul people, it is roomy, etc. Not perfect at all, but a great car.

Not sure what I replace it with it, as it is my 2nd car, but ain't worrying about that now.

xB2 owners enjoy your ride, just because xb1'ers would rather walk than drive an xB2 shouldn't bother you at all. Believe me, we original owners took a lot of heat, funny stares, jokes, etc. about our boxes when they were still hitting the market.

^ I think that is the problem with this community. . . the newer generation of xB2, tC2, (and lesser extent) xD, feel like everyone else is passing judgement on THEM and THEIR CARS. It creates a lot of drama, tension, and disagreement. I honestly don't understand how anyone can be SO sensitive (not pointing fingers at anyone in particular). And the fact that everyone thinks they are experts in business, sales, and the automotive industry. . . but I guess you do find that in every forum.

I'm shocked to see the comments showing love for the old xbs , Toyota changed the style for a reason, reason being they were hideous, I love the shape they added to it. And hope they don't go back to the traditional box
since your a newb I would not expect you to understand...they created the cars that did not appeal to their core customer base and other companies have.. so the reason was ignorance as they have not had much customer retention so actually if you like it better your part of a small group as evidenced by the sales number

^ I think that is the problem with this community. . . the newer generation of xB2, tC2, (and lesser extent) xD, feel like everyone else is passing judgement on THEM and THEIR CARS. It creates a lot of drama, tension, and disagreement. I honestly don't understand how anyone can be SO sensitive (not pointing fingers at anyone in particular). And the fact that everyone thinks they are experts in business, sales, and the automotive industry. . . but I guess you do find that in every forum.
I would chalk up more to the the enthusiast has left the building

I dont know what everyone wants to hate on. You all have your cars and love them. Thats great for you. Congrats! We all buy our cars cause we love them. We had a 1st gen and loved it, had to buy bigger, and now downsized back to save money on gas( honda pilot). We love our 2011 xb and wouldnt buy the first 2nd gen because of the back end. We just love it now. I did a bunch of custom and aftermarket work to it to make it our own, and it is a great car. Basically you love your car, we love ours. No reason to hate on anyone elses choice. We are all scion brethren. Show love, live aloha. Life is too damn short to fill it with negativity like this. Besides, with the cube, soul, mini, and probably 3 or 4 other very similar competitors, its only natural that numbers drop. Nissan loyalists and kia lovers will likely stay loyal to the brand. Thats how Toyota became the worlds largest car maker. Loyalty. 1st gen owners can be proud of being OG with the first box car, others can love theirs for the reasons they decided to drop the cash on theirs. Their all Toyota and all very solid cars. Much love to all my scion brethren. Aloha!

Toyota has fallen to #3 worldwide behind GM & VW.

Love your ppositivity, Wadles. No hate from me. But given your points on loyalty, what would you say is the cause for the drop in market share?

My opinion, is that the highest form of loyalty is to have the best intentions in mind, FOR the long term and BIG picture. IMO, blind loyalty is the primary cause of the collapse in GM/Ford/Chrysler quality during the late 70's and 80's. And the blind loyalty to Toyota is what is causing problems TODAY for Toyota. That kind of direction really leaves no incentive for a car company to be competitive. I love kaizen, JIT, and Toyota's innovative corporate engineering, and the last thing I want is to see them fail. They haven't failed yet, but are definitely heading in the wrong direction.

So true. I have to chalk it up to a shaky economy globally. China seems to be one of the very few who are not suffering too badly and they just are getting out of recovery from that quake. Japan has a ways to go yet. Here on Maui, an initiative brought a number of homeless families to live with host families for some time while recovery efforts catch up. Economically, it could be another year or even two before things get humming again. Mobile electronics and smaller consumer electronics are booming so much that I believe it will only take a year or so, but its just speculation. The marketing that Toyota splashed onto the US scene with scions inception was well timed and very clever. IMO they still do well, just not as well now that others have caught on and those marketing schemes seem to be popping up everywhere. VW is a prime example with the das auto vampaign and the whole comedic bug and such. If you recall, just after scion was born, those refreshed VWs and new models started flowing out with that new marketing. Maybe that helped them hop back in front of Toyota globally. BTW NYCxB, I think maybe you kinda missed my main point. Yes, my stats were off a bit, but it was due to scions success that they were in 1st back a couple of years ago. However, if scion had been borne of someone like Kia, or Daewoo, or even Suzuki, I can almost guarantee that the cult like following would have never happened. The faith that the average consumer has in the Toyota brand is a large part of the selling factor. Along with the styling that was keen compared to grannys corolla or camry. No hating, just a loose stereotype. The manufacturer helped a lot with scions success. Also, we can safely say that the recent recalls and scary prius publicity are hurting sales as well over the last 2 years. Couple that with a resurging ford lineup and some regained faith in GM as a whole, and you have a pretty good part of the market shifting mapped out. Its not too hard to see if you're willing to look past the opinions and hot flash fad jumping that so many of us Americans easily latch onto. The big picture is always there and history tells us a lot of what will likely happen in the future if we only take time to try and understand things instead of throwing opinions out the window like happy meals at McDonald's. Much love y'all. Its nice to chat with folks about things sometimes. My 2 and 5 year old kids cant talk economics just yet. :-) Peace to all my scion and Toyota owning friends.

The collapse of GM & Chrysler have more to do with the blood sucking unions then anything else.

Neither were able to compete against foreign carmakers, ie. cost $75 per hour for GM to build a car as opposed to $30 per hour for Toyota to build one.

In 2006 GM sold the most cars it had ever sold and still was unable to show a profit. They were cash poor. Socialism and Capitalism do not mix.

Toyota, taking a page out of GM, wanted the top slot and focused on quantity which harmed the one thing they were known for, quality. It saw a decrease and the market noticed.

It was never about GM's products, they turned out some great ones. Cadillac saw an expansion in its consumer base to under 55+ which is where it was for years. Bob Lutz rolled out the Pontiac Solstice and the Cadillac V16 was to debut. In the 90's there wasn't a car maker rolling out new styles better than Chrysler, from the Prowler, Viper, Crossfire, PT Cruiser, etc. which all ended when it was purchased by Mercedes, which battled the unions and finally gave up and sold Chrysler.

GM's intro of the ultimate SUV, namely the Hummer, was the only vehicle that was able to turn a profit (usually the case with all SUV's).

Non-American car companies do not have to deal with the labor issues American companies have to deal with. Want to roll out a new line, you have to throw millions at it to simply re-train the labor as per the UAW.

Then you have the decrease in consumer loyalty. This is across the board, not just for cars. From CPG like soap to clothing. What is the better deal?

The Scion brand launched itself as different. The market expected from the brand the unexpected. Granted a square box on wheels is not unique, but it certainly was not anything expected. That is where Scion fell flat, they delivered vehicles that were not "what is that?" add in the problems they faced internally and then with the current administration putting a hit on them, and you have a problem.

So, as of today, Toyota has been hit with falling quality, expected design, a hit by the economy and a hit by the Obama administration hoping to help his minions at the UAW.

To simply blame the economy is somewhat misleading. Look at Apple. Constantly turning out products that cost far more than any other company, in some cases with no viable reason (iPad) and making a killing.

Innovation, access to competitive labor, execution and back to innovation will make any company thrive regardless if you have a socialist in the White House or not.

Very good points NYCxB. I agree with most of them. I think comparing Apple to the auto industry or even any other industry is a but unfair. They have hit a few home runs that no other competition has ever been able to produce and that held them at the top of their markets without much concern. They combined that with very expensive marketing and also the ability to do in house tech support and software design and development. This left them with very little reliance on anyone else to do critical steps in their production. The hardware part is usually the easiest to accomplish and I think you'll agree when it comes to consumer electronics. Design and software advances are usually the most volatile and can often be hit or miss. But back to autos, GM has quite an advantage over Toyota with the sheer number of brands under its umbrella. Even with that advantage, Toyota was able to steal the top spot, even though somewhat brief, with just 3 brands to count on and one of them( scion) was just a baby. The meteoric rise could be described as a well thought out marketing campaign that was just in the right place at the right time. They weren't going to be hurting if scion were never born. They wouldve been just fine. That being said, I do agree that they have had a few quality issues that have to be eliminated in the future in order to protect the future of the reputation they worked so hard on for so long to build. Here's to hoping that they can do that. I love my Toyota and have been pushin any and all my family members into them for a long time and would like to keep that trust and loyalty going, but not if it makes a fool out of me. Hopefully Toyota sees that too. Aloha and mahalo for the good conversation. Peace.

NYC, I don't disagree with ANY point you made, but I want to clear up a fundamental difference, and clarify my point.

Market Share increases and decreases can happen independent of sales figures. IE, even if your sales increase, your market share can decrease. Factors that affect it are sales in total across all brands and economic factors.

Fact, sales always go up and down. But the REAL measure of winning or loosing in any business, is 1) profit, and 2) market share. As a business, GM has failed because of the Unions. Granted. However, despite being unprofitable, they still do sell cars. But the failure I was referring to was the drop in market share. . . which relates back to the current problems at Toyota.

So to sum up my points, I measure success and failure based on market share. In the 70's/80's, American manufacturers began their downturn in market share (due to brand loyalty creating odd market demand). Today, Toyota suffers from it's loyal customers, and is turning out less competitive products, and losing market share, just like GM did. Total sales are not related to this point.

Today:
Apple: sales up, market share up (win)
Iphone: sales up, android (competitor) market share up (=losing market share to android)
BMW: sales down, market share up (win)
Scion: sales down, market share down (total loss)
Hyundai: sales up, market share up (win)

Keep in mind, I'm not commenting on product superiority, but purely a company's ability to meet market demand.

Apple didn't increase its share through the sales of its computer hardware but by something nothing to do with making a laptop. It was called iTunes. That allowed users to organize and buy music which could easily be played on an iPod. Their aim was to get into the living room, become the center of the home and they have, over a 10 year period begun to the final step towards that. The key to their success, which is the key to any business is 3 step. Innovate, execute, innovate.

As for GM's huge stable of brands vs Toyota's. There was nothing different at a Pontiac dealership that couldn't be found at a Chevy dealership. Since the gas crisis of 73, GM used Chevy engines in Pontiacs (these 2 brands had different followings in the 60's), etc. Basically GM became one big parts bin with 6-7 different labels.

Toyota's knocking off Mercedes (Lexus), that is where big profit comes from. GM had 2 lost decades of no luxury brand as Caddy attracted 55+. That is not a demo to success and market futures.

Toyota, a brand I never considered with the exception of the xB, came in cheaper and targeted say the once market dominant Ford Taurus with their Camry and eventually took that over.

Speaking to sales up and market share, etc. Some brands have no where to go but up or down. Apple created the advanced smartphone segment. Theirs is both software and hardware. This can not be separated. They dominated via a single carrier (ATT). With the expansion of a deal with Verizon now and the possible buyout of T-Mobile by ATT Android has peaked and is losing share, not gaining share. Furthermore, developers are abandoning Android as it makes sense for them to create for the iOS which covers 2 devices (iPhone and iPad).

Hyundai, in their push to sell are sacrificing their dealers who are not turning a profit. Or should I say are earning the lowest in the business and that includes more than half of what Ford or Chrysler dealers make in service and parts (Ford dealers see 85% covered by Ford for service and parts, Hyundai dealers might see as much as 40% covered). This will become a problem that allows the consumer to be exposed to shoddy service because the dealer is trying to turn a profit on service and quality service won't lead to that. So I see that as a ticking time bomb, besides in the 1980's Hyundai saw sales in a downturn, they were selling a car for $4,995 when new cars were double that. They are, for the most part, a bad economy car and as soon as the economy gets better or we see a dramatically new President in 2012, Hyundai will be associated with hard times and consumers will look to buying established brands.

GM still is the #1 car company in the world. They are still not turning a profit and won't as long as they try to exist with their labor issues. Their one plus is the love for Buick in China, which baffling as that sounds, will also be an issue as China is seeking imitate and at some point that huge market will sink GM.

Chrysler, which has lost the taxpayer over $1.3 Billion, has been handed to a foreign company (FIAT), while Sergio Marchionne is a brilliant man, and will turn Chrysler around, the US government handed them the company for nothing. Deplorable.

Ford, while they didn't take any TARP, they are having issues, cash issues are around the corner for them unless the economy gets better.

VW is the new #2 worldwide, behind GM.

Market share is extremely important, but profit is key. GM functions on market share (quantity) to deal with their labor issues. Honda targets profit.

Bottom line and back to Scion. Scion was a forward thinking brand that was ready to mix it up, take the current technology or should I say the current wants, put it in the car and make it the new gathering place. Not since the 1970's vans where people put in beds, tables, customized the heck out of those things did that happen until Scion came online. Really, a TV in the cargo area? The amount of money spent on aftermarket for the Scion certainly exceeded any other brand. It was a brand that polarized (you either loved it full on or hated it full on) and then it became you.

The new xB, when it came out looked like a VW and a Hyundai got it on and birthed it. It looked like something else. Whereas the original models looked, I should say the xB1, looked like nothing else (well actually a Chevy Astro, but...)

At the very least, the marketing folks should be asking existing owners of Scion vehicles some questions: Will their next vehicle be a Scion, and why or why not...

Leave us some room to answer around the questions to get an understanding of their market.

My answer would be no, it will not be a Scion, because neither Scion, Toyota, nor Lexus has a utility city car (Urban Utility Vehicle - UUV) like the original xB/bB and the current bB in the US market. I would also add that I really wish it could be a Scion because of the dealership purchase experience as opposed to others (including Toyota), and my experience with Toyota made products over the years.

I'm willing to buy, they just have to have something I WANT to buy. If nothing changes I may have to invest in a hamster suit...

My local dealership hasn't had any scions, period, for the last three months. They said they've had people ask about the TC, but won't have any until Aug. They had one used '08 TC on the lot last time I was there. Otherwise, nada.

They need to release the bB that the rest of the world has :/ I've even started taking a look at what it may take to import one, hah

They need to release the bB that the rest of the world has :/ I've even started taking a look at what it may take to import one, hah

The only legal way to import one is as a show car or test car. You will not be able to register or license it for normal public road use. It is not on the NHTSA list of importable vehicles, nor does it meet any of the exceptions that would allow you to import it and use it on American roads.

Worldwide, the current Toyota bB (and it's nearly identical sisters coming off the same production line, the Daihatsu Materia, Daihatsu COO, and Subaru DEX) is available in both left and right hand drive, in versions that would likely meet all US requirements except for federal testing.

Toyota could bring it into the US with very little additional investment, and I feel that in today's market they would sell. I'd love to see it as a Scion - I like the dealer experience better than the others - but I'd take it in any of it's brand names.

Importing one as an individual, however, is not something that can be done if one plans to license it to drive as an everyday vehicle. :(

I bought my xb2 because it was wrecked...I could fix it, and it cost me $5300 bucks. You could never get me to buy a new car. I mean, honestly, new car prices are ridiculous. I'll be driving private party used cars until I die.

Hopefully the ft-86 can jump start the scion market as a fairly powerful, rwd coupe that caters to performance enthusiasts.

That's what I had mostly gathered, unfortunately. Thanks for putting all that together in one nice little post! :biggrin: I would absolutely kill for one of those things, I wish the US wasn't so stubborn about their silly importation restrictions... If they ever go on sale, I will be the first to throw down a pre-order. Lol

You could import one, swap vins with a salvaged xB, and claim you modified it and did a JDM conversion? Not exactly legal, though...

Yeah, that's a lot of work and I'd rather not have someone find out and instantly lose my car :icon_razz: Plus I live in Colorado, might be different if I was in CA and could just pick it up then garage it.

Seem that based upon a dismal product line and bloated pricing (tC in particular), sales couldn't be worse and this problem began long before the tragedy in Japan. Wonder if the Scion brand will survival at all.

hi dude its really very nice information thanks

hi friends i am new to this website

I guess they wanted to be SURE

Here in Canada, there is no marketing on the TV, no ad in the newspaper. Seems like Toyota is letting the brand to die. That is a shame because the IQ has an attractive price and will fight Smart and Fiat ont heir own ground.

I think SCION wants to use the IQ model to pump-up the brand... But still I haven't seen any marketing.

The marketing team is sedated. Too bad because a bit of agressivity would lead this brand to the summit!!!

Traditional advertising is no longer the way.

Scion, like other brands are moving where the audience is, online.

TV viewership is down to under 50% in the US and has moved online, via game consoles, Apple TV, Hulu, etc.

Here in Canada, there is no marketing on the TV, no ad in the newspaper. Seems like Toyota is letting the brand to die. That is a shame because the IQ has an attractive price and will fight Smart and Fiat ont heir own ground.

I think SCION wants to use the IQ model to pump-up the brand... But still I haven't seen any marketing.

The marketing team is sedated. Too bad because a bit of agressivity would lead this brand to the summit!!!

Thomas are those numbers including the sales of scions that aren't sold at a Toyota dealership but at private dealerships in small towns? I see scions being traded in at small dealerships around the oak harbor area...didnt know if this were being taken into consideration.

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Thomas are those numbers including the sales of scions that aren't sold at a Toyota dealership but at private dealerships in small towns? I see scions being traded in at small dealerships around the oak harbor area...didnt know if this were being taken into consideration.

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Sales figures are taken from new car sales by "Toyota Motor Sales" the sole importer of Scions into the United States, and therefore count ALL US Scion new car sales...

When I purchased my XD last week, even the sales director told me that the sales where much lower than the expected targets.

He said there is no ads in the area. I start to look around and indeed I see a lot of Toyota Prius and Corollas but no Scion.

You said the marketing targets the youth where tey are, online, on Facebook and those places. The problem is that yougn people cannot affor brand new car. One reason is their credit that is not solid yet, the second is that insurance premium are is as much as the payment of a car.

Ther only choice lft for youth is used car, not 4 and 5 years old car but rather 8 to 10 years old car that they can insure on one side only for cheap.

The IQ is a direct competitor of Smart. The buyers of Smart are not young they are 30 and 40+. These people should be tageted through usual mans like news papers and TV.

Another thing that is a mistake: the huge FJ40. Too big, too bulky too expensive, sip gas like I drink water. Designed to run on super not on regular.

They should discontinue it and bring back the Toyota FJ30 form the 70s and 80s but with an up to date design. They should market it under the Scion brand. Also they should marker many TRD parts available for this one.

This one being the size of a Jeep YJ would be a hit!

They should discontinue it and bring back the Toyota FJ30 form the 70s and 80s but with an up to date design. They should market it under the Scion brand.

Now that would be something to see....a SCION truck....I like this :biggrin:

It is probably because at this point everyone drives one or knows someone that drives one. They probably have reached their peak. :/

from what i hear scion sales are very weak in neap