All this talk over intakes and headers is getting old. when are some compnaies going to come out with lightened UDP. i had one on my old car and it was awesome. it freed up so much power from the engine. btw the udp is a lightened crank pully.

i hear alot of people talking about these but have never actually had them on one of my cars.... how much of a difference does it make (hp wise), and is it safe for your engine/tranny

doesnt free up very much power

The crank pulley frees up a ton of torque, I had the whole Unorthadox Racing kit on my 2002 Celica GT-S. Very wise investment.

does anyone make one for the tC?

yes im highly interested in UDP

doesnt free up very much power

it freed up 9 horses/7lbs of tq on my escort zx2.......thats better than most intakes.


This is a cry out to a machine shop or some aftermarket company...........make the udp for the tC!!!!!

yeah the pullies would deff make a difference in power for this car.

Crank pully is usually a bad idea,...the Alternator pulleys and the Power Steering ones worked well for my h22 accord. But, you shouldnt throw on a lightened crank pulley because it could mess up your crank over time....but i guess being this careful is just me, everyone else seems to think that im crazy with the comments I make.

if i got a lighter alternator pully wouldnt that make more power to prevent my lights from flashing when my sub hits?

if i got a lighter alternator pully wouldnt that make more power to prevent my lights from flashing when my sub hits?

No, actually it would be bad to have a lighter alternator pulley because its actually making the belt work less...so it would be bad for a big system. and would probably make your lights dim.

ok just checking i guess ill just wait and get another battery once i get my new system

and sorry for draging this off topic like that

i too want an UDP, i think it would help alot

You may want to check Perrin they make pulleys for the xa/xb. If thats any help.

if i got a lighter alternator pully wouldnt that make more power to prevent my lights from flashing when my sub hits?

It will have absolutely no effect on the output of the alternator. The output is affected by rpm (up to the regulation point) and the internal design of the alternator. It has nothing to do with how easy or hard the pulley itself is to turn.

I should also note that if you are talking the engine damper this is more then a pulley: it removes the vibration from the engine. A near crazy idea to remove this. As it directly effects the longevity of the engine, if not why would the factory, you know the guys that give you a warranty, go through all the trouble of making a heavy three piece damper if it was NOT needed? Simple it is needed especially with a steel crank which I assume the tC has. As steel tends to ring more then a cast crank. Also longer stroke cranks ala tC also tend to ring more. Basically meaning only a cringing newbie with no knowledge of fundamental engine dynamics would ever contemplating bolting on a light weight solid aluminum damper. THIS WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY PERIOD.

http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=5

Fact: the factory spends big $$$ on each and every engine to make and install harmonic dampers.

Fact: MPG and HP would go up if the factory just milled a cheap aluminum pulley.

Fact: no factory does it. Why?

OK break-up into small grounps and discuss amoung yourselves.

i have to say it... i love you oldman, ur pretty much, well the MAN. Keep on keepin on oldman, i got ur back

:clap: engifineer and oldman :clap:

Some of these kids could learn something from you guys.

I should also note that if you are talking the engine damper this is more then a pulley: it removes the vibration from the engine. A near crazy idea to remove this. As it directly effects the longevity of the engine, if not why would the factory, you know the guys that give you a warranty, go through all the trouble of making a heavy three piece damper if it was NOT needed? Simple it is needed especially with a steel crank which I assume the tC has. As steel tends to ring more then a cast crank. Also longer stroke cranks ala tC also tend to ring more. Basically meaning only a cringing newbie with no knowledge of fundamental engine dynamics would ever contemplating bolting on a light weight solid aluminum damper. THIS WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY PERIOD.

http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=5

Fact: the factory spends big $$$ on each and every engine to make and install harmonic dampers.

Fact: MPG and HP would go up if the factory just milled a cheap aluminum pulley.

Fact: no factory does it. Why?

OK break-up into small grounps and discuss amoung yourselves.

Great link!

[quote="oldman"]Basically meaning only a cringing newbie with no knowledge of fundamental engine dynamics would ever contemplating bolting on a light weight solid aluminum damper. THIS WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY PERIOD.[quote/]

guess im a "cringing idiot with no knowledge".

[quote=oldman]Basically meaning only a cringing newbie with no knowledge of fundamental engine dynamics would ever contemplating bolting on a light weight solid aluminum damper. THIS WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY PERIOD.[quote/]

guess im a "cringing idiot with no knowledge".

That was a bit harsh, I agree. He posted some good info, but should not bash on people just for not knowing something. We all are lacking knowledge of different things!

Actually you don't need the Dampner on the lightweight crank pulley because it is the weight of the factory pulley that causes you to need one. I had UR pulleys on my Celica GT-S and the factory crank pulley weighed 9LBS and the UR one only weighed 2-3LBS. They told me that the weight of the factory pulley would actually stress the crank more than the UR pulley will, and also the UR pulleys are very very well balanced so there is little vibration.

Actually you don't need the Dampner on the lightweight crank pulley because it is the weight of the factory pulley that causes you to need one. I had UR pulleys on my Celica GT-S and the factory crank pulley weighed 9LBS and the UR one only weighed 2-3LBS. They told me that the weight of the factory pulley would actually stress the crank more than the UR pulley will, and also the UR pulleys are very very well balanced so there is little vibration.

The point of the heavy damper is to counter-effect the ringing of the crank. Yes, the heavier pulley adds strain, but it more than counters this by damping the ringing on the crank which will eventually cause it to crack/warp. Using the super light dampers is ok if you just race the car on occasion, but for everyday driving it is not a good idea.

"they" are the people making money on you. The factory pulley is heavy complicated, multi piece because it has to work. "they" are not factory engineers, I bet "they" are not engineers at all. I already stated it would be far far far cheaper for Toyota to whip out one piece aluminum crank pulleys, that would add HP and MPG to the engine, the factory engineers don't do it cause the engines would blow up in the long haul. Are "they" going to offer you an extended warranty? I think not.

Look at "they" logic, um the damper is heavy that is why it needs to be um a damper, but if the damper was not heavy then it would not need a damper at all. Our cheap pulley here is light, so we toss it on your engine, and you don't need a damper at all, cause our pulley is light you see. Gee I guess Toyota engineers are a bunch of buffoons and monkeys not have figured this out. As well as every other engine from every other factory. You think that these cheap pulleys have been around since um I was a little boy, you think that the factory engineers would get a clue? Like the pulley cost the factory say $10.00 vs $75.00 for a vibration damper that robs HP and MPG. $65.00 an engine x millions of engines a year. I guess OEM loves to throw away billions of $$$$$ a year.

Oh and the steel crank the one that is throwing pistons up and down at 8000 RPM and has a 25 lbs flywheel that is 2.5 wide meaning that it has about 50x the rotational inertia of the 6” from damper is not “stressing” the crank? I’m sure the silly Toyota engineers think otherwise.

I know somebody will come in and say I got a Honda and it went 100,000 miles with a UD solid pulley… My answer is great and I know of a couple of million Hondas that have done it with the factory vibration damper.

I should not that even true built race engines use vibration dampers and they only need to run down the ¼ mile, or a circle track at roughly continuous RPM.

Here are other problems with UD pulleys that are not dampers:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/announcements/warranty_article.pdf


And of course there is the horse’s mouth:

http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/faq_pulleys.html

It is full of gibberish and double speak pretending to be real engineering, I especially like the part about “does it void my warranty?” After three paragraphs um the answer is hell yes!

Also their list of engines that don’t have dampers like the “Chrysler 2.2L's”

Hey an engine I’m familiar with, not just happen to CNC a pulley for. Yes it is true that Dodge Omni POS, and other low low budget 2.2s did not have a damper. The front pulley is just that a large heavy hunk of cast iron.

But wait, just by being large, and heavy allows some vibration dampening, also this is a cast crank engine, which rings far less (ring being a non technical term for sinusoidal waves propagating thru the crank), this engine as designed made 86 HP @ 4600 RPM and makes no power above 5000 RPM and has a very heavy flywheel, and NA peak power from 2.2 liter is um near pathetic amounts of HP from an engine so large, and this is a two bolt main cap type engine so the caps flex, hence some oscillation is dampen via cap design, think of them as rubber bands that’s how weak the main cast iron caps are in terms of vibration dampening, and the belt drive system on the front was triangulated with a separate alternator belt, this allowed some dampening via multiple belts of different tensions and lengths; lastly this was not know as a smooth engine nor one that lasted a long time. I’m sure unorthodox racing took all that into consideration on EACH UD pulley they make, not just simply CNC a replacement pulley……NOT.


Great post here:
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread/t-33434.html

and here on the Honda ones, note the Unorthodox says Acura does not run dampers, but they don’t list the engine, surely the B18c does, as does.

http://www.team-integra.net/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=10&TopicID=17059


and finally from the guys that make quality dampers for a reason ATI:

http://www.atiperformanceproducts.com/products/dampers/101/index.htm

OK please continue the discussion.

Actually you don't need the Dampner on the lightweight crank pulley because it is the weight of the factory pulley that causes you to need one. I had UR pulleys on my Celica GT-S and the factory crank pulley weighed 9LBS and the UR one only weighed 2-3LBS. They told me that the weight of the factory pulley would actually stress the crank more than the UR pulley will, and also the UR pulleys are very very well balanced so there is little vibration.

The point of the heavy damper is to counter-effect the ringing of the crank. Yes, the heavier pulley adds strain, but it more than counters this by damping the ringing on the crank which will eventually cause it to crack/warp. Using the super light dampers is ok if you just race the car on occasion, but for everyday driving it is not a good idea.

Granted I know much more about how things generally work with ZX2's over Scion vehicles, but I put one on my 2001 ZX2 and there was a definitive difference. I had a dyno sheet showing an average of 6-8 WHP getting freed up. For $100 (includes new belt and shipping) it was definitelya good investment.

Not sure what kinds of results a Scion would receive but it definitely couldn't hurt anything (at least I wouldn't imagine so.)

I wouldn't probably put one on if you'er going with audio/lighting mods as it does affect how much juice you'll get...at idle in my Z the headlights would dim slightly, vent blowers would taper a bit, etc.

Basically meaning only a cringing newbie with no knowledge of fundamental engine dynamics would ever contemplating bolting on a light weight solid aluminum damper.

you have very useful information on some threads, but then you make yourself look like a complete ___ when you type things like this.

i'm sure there are quite a few subjects you know nothing about also.

zen what was the milage when you put it on and what was it when you sold it / or current as the case maybe?

Wast the OEM solid? Do you know if this car has a cast crank, what kind of block does a focus have? how heavy and what type of flywheel, solid or DMF?

Was this your dyno sheet or do you mean you had a link to a vedonr dyno sheet?

Also Ford already hotrods the engine:
http://www.myfordfocussvt.com/svt/

Looks like they keep the stock power robber damper. Hm dual mass flyweel, and the block is cast iron..

http://www.seanhylandfocus.com/

So can a iron block, 2 bolt main, 130 HP 2.0 with cast crank, cast rods, be compared to a tC with aluminum block, bed pan design, 160 HP 2.4 liters, assumed steel crank, steel rods? Sounds like the Focus has more in common with the old 2.2 Dodge which was not a smooth nor long lived engine.

Here we can see whimpy two bolt mains hanging out in mid air and small cast caps and the OEM rod is cast iron too. So there is a whole lotta flexing going on. Sure the iron block can take a lot of power, but it is walking all around too. Now a tC probably has steel crank, steel rods and a bed-pan design bottom where all the mains are tied to the block as one unit. No flex there at all.

lol supa white got owned by old man......lets respect our elders guys, :bow:
they are a fountain of knowledge spewing nuts and bolts all over the place :rofl:

Put it on @ 53k miles, currently at 55k. There is absolutely no danger or 'downside' whatosever to a UDP (to my knowledge) other than the electricity issues, and that's hardly a downfall unless you've got a lot of extra audio, in which case you shouldn't be worrying about speed anyway.

And I'm confused on your post...there's nothing 'hotrodded' about the ZX2 engine. The Focus used to have the same 2.0 Zetec but I think the newer ones are all Duratec...not relaly sure. SVT engine was a modified 2.0liter Zetec producing 170 HP.

The damper effects longevity, hence my questions on how long.

Was the OEM damper solid? or did it have synthetic rubber in-between?

when I said factory "hot rod" my point is SVT spent big $$$$$ to get 40 more HP, and they kept the stock damper. If this was the cheap, smart way to get HP then SVT would have done it. Nope SVT no only did not get a cheap pulley for the front, the went for a DMF flywheel on the back side which is expensive and HEAVY, the DMF is a dual mass flywheel built to cancel out vibration it is built kind of like a large damper and has gears in most setups to let the outer mass walk back and forth on the inner mass and the dampeners are usually a combination of synthetic rubber and springs. A setup I'm very familiar with. The point is the factory hotrod went the opposite direction, the factory bolted on a heavy expensive complicated DMF on their engine, that robs HP and MPG but for sure smoothens out the engine and may help in high rpm stability and may help in engine life.

So how did Acura on the Type-S get a little more HP, where $$$$$$ were spent on 10 HP, cams, header, exhaust, intake, ECU,

Basically you have 2K miles on it and charging issues, but not it is not a problem unless...., I would note as your battery and alternator get older they need more engine RPM to perform, I will note as voltage drops to 12V spark falls off and performance, low speed torque and MPG all drop.


If you read through ALL the documents I've listed above you will also find that cranks blow apart at specific harmonics, and a shorter stroke, lower HP, cast crank will have a higher fracture RPM harmonic then a steel, LONG stroke crank, stuck on a solid bottom end bed plate design ala tC.

Point is factory built engines like the SVT, Type-S, Type R, GTS, where huge $$$$ are spent getting 10 more HP over the last engine, none come with a cheap aluminum pulley. Why? Because the engine must have a warranty and there is no way to get bearing / crank life with a cheap pulley stuck on the end.

Yes, I only have 2k. But Run over to teamzx2.com sometime. THere are guys over there that have been running UDP's for more than 3-4 years.

I agree and for every say Dodge 2.2 (insert cheap design) that goes over 100,000 miles with a solid pulley making up 80% of the total, the are 99% of Toyota engines that do it, extend it out to 200K miles and cheap engines maybe 15% make it while I'd say 50% of the Toyota engines make, go to 300K then you get .5% of cheap engines vs 15% of the Toyota engines.

The cheap solid pulley directly effects engine longevity.. obviously something that Toyota thinks is important.

Did you dyno your car or are you using a vendor dyno?

It kind of funny that these UD pulleys take all margin out of the stock system from charging speed, to water circulation, to A/C. Same guys that put these pullies on then turbo and N20 and or WOT or generaly make max use of the engine. For me I want a supercharger and the more coolant flowing through my engine the better, the longer the main bearings last the better, the more charging the more voltage the better my spark, in Texas heat stop and go traffic, I want my A/C turning over at stock levels. The longer my extened 100,000 mile warranty last the better because I intend to beat the life of my tC.

I can get a gain of 2 to 3 HP with just synthetic oil, something that will also help my engine last 200K+, that makes far more sense then a mod with iffy gains at the expense of a whole lotta things including the warranty.

Yes, I only have 2k. But Run over to teamzx2.com sometime. THere are guys over there that have been running UDP's for more than 3-4 years.


I had a 98 escort zx2 with the esslinger UDP. i had mine on for 2 years........no issues. BTW i dont give respect......it gets earned.

already said it is a % thing, I for one want to be with the 99% of the Toyota engines that hit 100k, and 50% that hit 200K not with the 15% of the Ford engines. Just think about the % failure I'm talking about.

Plus once again a low HP, cast crank, wimpy bottom end engine is not comparable to a steel crank long stroke high HP engine.

Here it is in a nutshell. UD damper will void warranty, UD pulley may add 2x the HP as synthetic oil, UD pullies effect long term crank and bearing life of the engine, hence Toyota uses a vibration damper. UD pullies IMO are a silly mod for new car with a well design vibration damper, as the 6 or so WHP can be found via other safer mods with no compromises such as oil, a light weight flywheel, CAI, full exhaust, etc. Toss in the fact that any forced induction or N20 car or autoX car needs MORE coolant flow, the UD makes little sense.

If I were going for mod that for sure 100% for sure would void my warranty I'd be thinking turbo kit. But that is just me.

Does anyone know for sure if the Scion tC have a harmonic balancer? If it doesnt then this discussion is pointles.s Not every car has this.

oldman, are you in some type of contest to see how many people you can prove wrong?

if so, no one else is playing, so stop.

The tC has a large assume heavy three part damper or at least it looks like one, I did not pull my engine out to check. I would say there is some dampning even with a heavy soild iron setup. FYI.

oldman, are you in some type of contest to see how many people you can prove wrong?

if so, no one else is playing, so stop.

agreed!

No game here, Doublej16, you posted bad data and were hammered on it on another forum, to find me here and continue your gripe on this and a second thread, fits the classic definition of internet Troll.

I don’t need to prove “everybody” wrong. I do like to show what does and does not working using readily available data on the internet.

I’ve provided the data, I’ve provided the link even backing up lighten pulleys from the horse’s mouth Unorthodox Racing. I provided data from vendors of real dampers ATI and Dinan. I’ve provided a link to a Ford page explaining why they don’t warranty UD equipped cars. I’ve asked the owner of a UD if that was his dyno run showing the HP gain or the vendors, no reply I can only assume it was the vendor’s 8 WHP. I’ve never said that UD pulleys can’t "add" WHP. I did say WHP can be found by synthetic oil and / or a lightweight flywheel and such mods would make better choices.

The UD frees HP that was being used to protect the main bearings, used to flow coolant thru the block, used to turn on and run the A/C, and used to generate electricity. All aspects of HP loss factory engineered to provide the most reasonable amounts of each by Toyota engineers utilizing millions of miles of compiled data. While the UD pulley maker, just whips out cheap aluminum pulleys that have no more engineering behind them then a simple ratio reduction.


I’ve already stated that IMO, if you are going to be whacking on the engine, adding a supercharger etc, it makes little sense getting a few free HP at the expense of bearing life and coolant flow. The gist is do you trust Toyota to make the smartest compromise between longevity, workability and performance and backs the compromise up with reputation and an iron clad warranty, or do you trust Unorhodox Racing that is offering only a few HP for a couple of hundred $$$.

I tone it down for the most part on no technical threads, but on tecnical threads, um you either got the poop or you don't.

oldman, it seems like you know alot about other cars, but when it comes to the tc everything you say is a complete guess.. you really know little to nothing about the tc.

in 90% of your posts you reference other cars (normally some type of honda or ford) that have NOTHING to do with the topic just to try and prove you know more then others in general car knowledge. it's really getting lame.

i can help you with a few links to some honda & ford forums if you'd like, then you can really "show off"

i think the reason oldman's posts are so irritating is because of his tone. he uses a nuclear approach -- with some useful data and some peripheral data -- along with an authoritative tone and loads of technical jargon to basically squash anything anyone else may say.

i have an unorthodox UD accessory pulley on my miata. meh, it maybe gave me a couple of hp. in the whole scheme of things, i don't think i'd have paid more than $50 for it (which is what i did on eBay; it was used and incompatible with the supercharger that the guy selling it was gonna install). however, when you're trying to squeeze the absolute last drop of hp out of an engine, then sure... it's a proven way to get a couple more ponies. it's part of the incremental steps to get maximum power.

what i find objectionable about oldman's posts is that he talks like his is The Only True Way. how irritating. maybe getting 200,000+ miles out of a tC isn't a goal for every owner. maybe some of us don't care about what happens to the car in 6 years because we'll have moved on to something else?

taking on a patronizing, maybe even "parental" tone, is rude and disrespectful for this kind of forum. it is one thing to debate the merits of a UD pulley. it's another to try and embarrass and minimize the input of another member. throw around all the dodge 2.2L engine talk that you want, post ford and honda links until you are bluer than an indigo ink tC... if you make your point by squishing someone else, you don't deserve any respect...regardless of your engineerring experience.

will i put an underdrive pulley on my tC? no. in this case, i will agree that the balance toyota's engineers chose (power vs. longevity) is a good one. the tC is my daily driver and as such i'm making different choices for it than i have with my miata. however, i wouldn't say that another person's choice is wrong or bad.

while it is true that car company engineers spend lots of $$ in r&d, it is also true that they do NOT always choose the wisest. many better engineering designs are passed over because they either cost too much or they do not fit within the corporate strategy (in other words, the lawyers or accountants overrode the engineers). so it's not a panacea to say "don't you think toyota would have done this if it was so cheap and easy?"

Very well stated Zack. I agree that much of oldmans data is very valuable, and don't doubt his knowledge. I even agree that replacing a stock damper with a lightweight one is detrimental to engine life. The problem is the delivery. It is hard enough to state a point that contradicts others without sounding like you are arguing or trying to prove them wrong. So adding a harsh or attacking tone just angers people and causes them to stop listening, even if you are providing sound advice. We should all take care in how we state things here, as it can easily turn into an argument (it has happened to us all i am sure). Especially since in writing we lose all body language, which makes it easy to take even a well intended post the wrong way. Now... theres my peace speech for the day.... so kiss my....... just kidding guys :silly: Take care :P

Here I'll turn your logic around so it um works: If Toyota makes an expensive complicated part, it is NEEDED. :clap: :clap:

maybe some people are not going 200K in their tC, I think "some" may want to know straight off the warranty is VOID the scond the dealer opens the hood. :loser:

You guys have confused your terminology. The original question was about underdrive pulleys, not harmonic balancers. Yes, there are pulleys that are also harmonic balancers but that wasn't the question.

And I don't see why an aftermarket pulley couldn't also have a harmonic balancer on it (like the stock one, but modified for the smaller drive diameter) so that it would accomplish underdrive on the belt but still balance the crankshaft.

hahah this thread is gettin kinda funny.

no one is being specific towards the TC but rather towards other things.

does anyone have proof of the goods and bads of a UDP on a TC?

is there any info out there that is DIRECTLY RELATED to the UDP on the TC?

blah blah blah. i might not be asking the correct questions but, lets keep this discussion towards the TC's

hmnnn.....I think there are people out there who rather feel the slight increase in power with the UDP and cares less about the longevity of the car. So, UDPs are a good thing for them, or for racers. But the info provided by oldman has to be commended for those who will consider longevity. (no pun intended). So, I'm sure there are at least two sides here, and when there are sides, there are fumes, like Rep. vs Democrats. I find both information was helpful.

Here I'll turn your logic around so it um works: If Toyota makes an expensive complicated part, it is NEEDED. :clap: :clap:

maybe some people are not going 200K in their tC, I think "some" may want to know straight off the warranty is VOID the scond the dealer opens the hood. :loser:

This makes my point exactly, oldman. Instead of listening to what I said, you turn around and attack me with a harsh tone and "loser" smile icon.

Many parts on production vehicles are borrowed from other production vehicles. If the cost of mass-producing one "expensive complicated part" (whatever THAT might be; usually anything "complicated" is comprised of subassemblies) is less than smaller-volume production of two simpler parts, then sure -- the "expensive complicated" part will be used.... even if it's not engineered specifically for each car.

You assume that every piece on our tC is a well-thought-out component just for the tC. It is not. I don't doubt the skills of Toyota's engineers. I'm just pointing out that they used "short-cuts" in the development of the tC wherever they could. This is perfectly fine, and auto makers do it all over the place. But you can't sit there and spout off about how everything is so precicely engineered for a given application when in many cases it is not. There is often a large margin of error built into the design specifically to allow for multiple applications. This is a general statement I'm making, not specifically refuting what you have said about the UDP and its effects on the engine.

As for voiding the warranty, um.... isn't it generally common sense that if you change a part on your car, you have voided at least some part of the warranty? Even most 16yo boys know that. The question is to what extent the warranty is voided. Generally, you only void the warranty in the specific instance where the aftermarket part is directly responsible for the problem.

If I put a UDP on my car and then the moonroof stops working, there is no loss of warranty. If I put an aftermarket intake on my car and the rear hatch locking mechanism stops working, I still have a warranty. They are unrelated items.

If I put a UDP on my car and the crank explodes.... OK, *now* there's a significant relationship between the mod and the failure. Warranty is likely to be voided, but not always. If it can be proven that the crank was faulty to start with (before the mod) then there could still be a warranty. It is not black and white, all warranty or none. It also depends on your relationship with the dealer, your willingness to make a case and appeal to higher levels if needed, and the extent of the damage. My guess is YOU would ____ off the service advisor with a belligerant, know-it-all tone and NOT get even a good will warranty repair.

My Miata is currently blowing the main ignition relay. So, it runs a few days and then won't start. Turns over, but won't start. The dealer has replaced several items (crank angle sensor, main ignition relay, main ignition switch, starter) but the problem persists. The last time it was at the dealer, they said that they believed my alarm and other aftermarket blue-glow accessories were putting too large of a load on the electrical system of the car. I don't agree, since they are not part of the ignition system. However, it didn't matter. They replaced the relay a second time under warranty. I'm now in the process of removing all the accessories so that I can eliminate that issue prior to further diagnostics. (I believe it is a short in the system somewhere in the engine bay.) My point is that providing service under warranty is often subject to a decision by the dealer, so there is "wiggle room" for good customers.

Tone down your attitude and maybe people will respect you. Or maybe you don't care.

Racerzack wrote This makes my point exactly, oldman. Instead of listening to what I said, you turn around and attack me with a harsh tone and "loser" smile icon.

I cut it to the chase on my post. Since you insist. Then let us look at your post:

Racerzack wrote engineering designs are passed over because they either cost too much or they do not fit within the corporate strategy

OK so cost: well the damper cost more and Toyota put it on. So cost is not an issue, the solid mickey mouse pulley is far cheaper to make.

Now corporate strategy: Toyota builds one of the most dependable and long lived cars, hence a damper. Now we come to your conclusion:

Racerzack wrote so it's not a panacea to say "don't you think toyota would have done this if it was so cheap and easy?"

Well logically it is a panacea, if it was a cheap and easy solution that yielded the same or better results Toyota would have done it. They did not, Toyota picked the expensive, complicate, power losing heavy damper. Because it was NEEDED.

So yes I was listening, I just did not have the time nor the inclination to point to your gapping hole in logic. Instead I um wrote a simple terse logical statement in its place.

Oldman wrote If Toyota makes an expensive complicated part, it is NEEDED


Racerzack wrote Many parts on production vehicles are borrowed from other … snip… This is a general statement I'm making, not specifically refuting what you have said about the UDP and its effects on the engine.

OK and so? Dunno as the topic is UDP. Talking about off topic content.

Racerzack wrote As for voiding the warranty, um.... isn't it generally common sense that if you change a part on your car, you have voided at least some part of the warranty? Even most 16yo boys know that. The question is to what extent the warranty is voided. Generally, you only void the warranty in the specific instance where the aftermarket part is directly responsible for the problem.

Like you said it is common sense to assume that the voided part of the warranty would have to do with the engine and more probably with the short block. What is not common sense and is the primary reason I did not specifically say void the short block portion of the warrant is, as the link to the Ford site shows the OEM feels the UDP hurt the entire powertrain: Engine, trans, PS, power generation, cooling. I could think of many scenarios that a component fails say your alternator and the OEM voiding the warranty because of UDPs. So what is it? Common sense I agree, no need to specify, short block for SURE, maybe even the whole powertrain depending on the type of failure. Like did it overheat and warp the head? IMO UDP would void the warranty, even though say it was a Neon with a know head gasket problem.

So lets hear it for common sense, and let common sense say that UDPs effect all aspects of the powertrain and hence can conceivably lead to the voiding of warranties that common sense would not otherwise dictate. Are the few HP worth it? Dunno. Ya think Toyota can afford somebody at my argumentative level or better to show up the day you try to get a consumer advocate to force Toyota to warranty your cylinder head? I think Toyota will show up with pics, prepared white papers and the like, proving conclusively that the UD pulley directly caused the failure along with a long list of precedence already ruled on in their favor. against UDP, while Joe Blow Hotrod shows up with his dad that knows how to tinker on an engine. I’d call that a SLAM dunk.

Racerzack wrote My guess is YOU would ____ off the service advisor with a belligerant, know-it-all tone and NOT get even a good will warranty repair.

My guess is I’d swap out the part before going to the dealer cause I know I’ll be dealing with a hard head service advisor, while you would try to use your obvious personal charm on a hard SOB that is um just like me and you would be the whining ____er after your warranty is voided while I’ll have a loaner. In fact in your case, the guy would write into the service log, car “showed up with UDP, drivetrain is now void but we did fix Mr ____er’s sunroof”.


Racerzack wrote My point is that providing service under warranty is often subject to a decision by the dealer, so there is "wiggle room" for good customers. :lalala:

Hence I’m on a first name basis with the mayor, who also owns the dealership. What a nice world to be in. thanks. :ttth:

Racerzack wrote This makes my point exactly, oldman. Instead of listening to what I said, you turn around and attack me with a harsh tone and "loser" smile icon.

I cut it to the chase on my post. Since you insist.

so in other words, you're a pr!ck who has to be rude to make a point.



Racerzack wrote engineering designs are passed over because they either cost too much or they do not fit within the corporate strategy

OK so cost: well the damper cost more and Toyota put it on. So cost is not an issue, the solid mickey mouse pulley is far cheaper to make.

and thus you ignore the second part of what i said. when one component can be used on multiple platforms, it may very well be over-engineered and/or more complicated than is necessary because the economy of scale makes it cheaper overall. on a per-piece unit, no it's not cheaper. however, auto makers don't price things on a per-piece basis. they look at their entire product line and reuse things wherever they can. instead of making 31,000 parts for the tC alone, toyota can make hundreds of thousands of them and use them on the tC, camry, corolla, etc. since they are now making a component which is used in multiple places with multiple engineering demands, they will overengineer the part to meet the highest-demand application.

so it's not a panacea to say "don't you think toyota would have done this if it was so cheap and easy?"


Racerzack wrote As for voiding the warranty, um.... isn't it generally common sense that if you change a part on your car, you have voided at least some part of the warranty? Even most 16yo boys know that. The question is to what extent the warranty is voided. Generally, you only void the warranty in the specific instance where the aftermarket part is directly responsible for the problem.

Like you said it is common sense to assume that the voided part of the warranty would have to do with the engine and more probably with the short block.

you're taking an all-or-nothing approach to this, which is just plain ridiculous. adding a UDP will not void the entire warranty on the entire car. your ford link is an exceptional circumstance, not the norm for these kind of problems. you can make all kinds of doomsday theories based on technical concept. the reality is that a UDP on a car which is well maintained and not being raced professionally is very likely to drive just as many miles as a car without the UDP.

there are many, many reasons why automakers don't adopt all of the "mods" that owners choose to put on their cars. cost, longevity, marketability, product placement, and on and on. you are focused on ONE aspect: longevity. that is not the be all, end all of this topic.

So lets hear it for common sense, and let common sense say that UDPs effect all aspects of the powertrain and hence can conceivably lead to the voiding of warranties that common sense would not otherwise dictate. Are the few HP worth it? Dunno. Ya think Toyota can afford somebody at my argumentative level or better to show up the day you try to get a consumer advocate to force Toyota to warranty your cylinder head? I think Toyota will show up with pics, prepared white papers and the like, proving conclusively that the UD pulley directly caused the failure along with a long list of precedence already ruled on in their favor. against UDP, while Joe Blow Hotrod shows up with his dad that knows how to tinker on an engine. I’d call that a SLAM dunk.

you're talking pure conjecture. the circumstances of the failure will determine what is and is not covered, not your sourpussed "slam dunk." toyota could just as easily blame the intake you may put on, or the exhaust, or the phase of the moon. for a single consumer complaint/warranty, toyota is unlikely to do ANY of what you're talking about. the cost of preparing all that material would exceed the cost of the repairs! the only reason for an automaker to put that kind of research into an issue like this would be in the event of a class action lawsuit.

My guess is I’d swap out the part before going to the dealer cause I know I’ll be dealing with a hard head service advisor, while you would try to use your obvious personal charm on a hard SOB that is um just like me and you would be the whining ____er after your warranty is voided while I’ll have a loaner. In fact in your case, the guy would write into the service log, car “showed up with UDP, drivetrain is now void but we did fix Mr ____er’s sunroof”.

i wouldn't give my business to a dealership that employed people like you. living in southern california, i have gobs of choices of dealerships. oh, and i went through a warranty engine replacement on my miata. the dealer was entirely professional (something you could learn to do) and did everything they could to help get the repair covered by mazda. they provided me a loaner and refused mazda's initial offer of replacing the short block. the dealership insisted on a long block.

Hence I’m on a first name basis with the mayor, who also owns the dealership. What a nice world to be in. thanks. :ttth:

how lovely for you. when is the wedding?

One word: Downers

Racezack wrote and thus you ignore the second part of what i said. when one component can be used on multiple platforms, it may very well be over-engineered and/or more complicated than is necessary because the economy of scale makes it cheaper overall. on a per-piece unit, no it's not cheaper. however, auto makers don't price things on a per-piece basis. they look at their entire product line and reuse things wherever they can… snip… they will overengineer the part to meet the highest-demand application.

Really :lalala: , I’ve posted I did read it and just did not feel like commenting on a egregious logic error, instead summed up your post in a simple sentence. Now I missed like a whole paragraph :rofl: :rofl: in between your logic error lets look at your post again verbatim:

Racezack wrote while it is true that car company engineers spend lots of $$ in r&d, it is also true that they do NOT always choose the wisest. many better engineering designs are passed over because they either cost too much or they do not fit within the corporate strategy (in other words, the lawyers or accountants overrode the engineers). so it's not a panacea to say "don't you think toyota would have done this if it was so cheap and easy?"
Dunno RZ, I don’t see it here, You clearly say “better designs” are passed over because the cost too much or that there was some strategy against the design. I completely missed the part about economies of scale providing an over engineered part one that cost significantly more to produce landing on a lesser car. Maybe you can highlight it? Oh and I forgot to mention to you big guy, the tC is the sporty vehicle that will in all probability be beat on to within an inch of its life and many will have a factory supercharger. So the over engineered application would be the Camry automatic driven by grandma to church, not the tC driven by a male Gen Y. Just thought you should know, since you insist on inserting a whole paragraph to fixed a flawed statement. I agree, grandma’s auto will probably outlast grandma’s license to drive even if you yanked out the “over engineered” damper and put in a cheapo mickey mouse pulley. I even bet that grandma won’t even notice the lack of charging at idle or the bling bling lights going dim when the her gospel music kicks in full chat. I’m sure the engine can take the heat load with the slow turning waterpump when she picks up two lady friends for bridge night what does she do like 35 MPH for 2 blocks?

For me I think I’ll use the two extra HP to save my bearings and run a little extra coolant thru the head….as I’m a little harder on my cars then most grandma types.
You just might want to use my phrase it is so much tighter and Occam’s razor would dictate that it is correct. Feel free to add a few more paraghraphs to your post, as it will never make sense.
Oldman wrote If Toyota makes an expensive complicated part, it is NEEDED
Racezack wrote the reality is that a UDP on a car which is well maintained and not being raced professionally is very likely to drive just as many miles as a car without the UDP.
Really? So why does Toyota put a heavy expensive three piece damper on the tC and since your blather above indicates that economies of scale would dictate the part had to have been designed for grandma’s Camry auto, Toyota must have clearly felt it was NEEDED in an auto Camry with a sheltered life. I for one think it is needed on the engine plain and simple. But feel free to expound on how the low stress massive production Camry needed an expensive part and how it found its way onto the high stress but limited production tC. Logic is a scary thing.’’
You have any data to back up your “very likely to drive just as many miles” statement? I think not. I think the damper is needed and coolant flow through the engine is needed to cover every conceivable scenario, and that Toyota spent huge amounts of money into R&D because this is their bread and butter engine and “very likely” just does not cut it when a $4000 engine repair job comes your way for a couple of HP.
Racezack wrote there are many, many reasons why automakers don't adopt all of the "mods" that owners choose to put on their cars. cost, longevity, marketability, product placement, and on and on. you are focused on ONE aspect: longevity. that is not the be all, end all of this topic.
Well more then one: cost, longevity, retention of warranty, factory engineered coolant flow, factory engineered power generation, factory engineered power steering speed vs the UDP ONE aspect: a few HP at WOT.
Racezack wrote for a single consumer complaint/warranty, toyota is unlikely to do ANY of what you're talking about. the cost of preparing all that material would exceed the cost of the repairs! the only reason for an automaker to put that kind of research into an issue like this would be in the event of a class action lawsuit.
Toyota will just void the warranty and / or work out some deal that the customer pays for say ½ the repair and signs a wavier for any further warranty claims. Toyota will only send the big guns, which they do have, when claims are pressed to some sort of arbitration. There is no single bit of new paperwork needed, the regional claims manager has a pre-produced white paper on any subject you can think of from headers to the silly ZMax gunk eating away at the seals. The claims manager will show up with white paper along with all other regional cases and 15 minutes later it is a slam dunk, next case please. Sure complaining customers will have their 15 minutes in front of an advocate and I don’t know if your dad’s expertise based on him tinkering with the family lawnmower is going to win against a Toyota prepared white paper on the subject of UD pulleys.
Racezack wrote , and i went through a warranty engine replacement on my miata. the dealer was entirely professional
So let me get this straight you are the first person I ever heard of blowing a Miata engine, and your are so happy that Mazda lost a ton of money on you. Great so you scammed a company to fixed something that you probable broke under tremendous abuse and conned poor company using their good will into fixing. I’m sure Mazda wants you as a customer. Come now Zack, how did you blow the Miata, did you miss shift playing out your version of F&F were you on the bottle, or did you screw up some performance part? Oh I know, I got it all wrong and you were driving down the street at normal speeds and the crank just flew out of the block, could happen to anyone.

I reasonably sure Toyota would be happy if you were not their customer, I’m sure they have delt with many “professional” SCA uber males. :loser:

:nails:

Well you guys can say what you want but I have never seen anybody with a problem from a UR Crank pulley. One person had one on an Integra GSR for 70,000 miles and took the motor apart to rebuild it and the crank had no wear whatsoever. Until you can prove to me that it will cause permanent damage I would rather you didn't speak on this topic. I had one on my 2002 Celica GT-S for 10,000 miles and I never experienced a single problem.

someone please lock this thread!!!!!

someone please lock this thread!!!!!

I 2nd that.

if toyota always uses the best products why do they use crush bent exhaust piping insted of mendrel bent? cost. i'm not here to flame anyone, and i know nothing about UDP, but what i do know is business. not everything toyota uses on the tc is the best it could use, the exhaust system for example, or the tires. what it comes down to is cost.

I never said Toyota uses the best part no matter what. I said that if Toyota put an expensive part on an engine where 90% of said engines are on Camry auto driven by grandma then it is a NEEDED part, and is really needed on a beat, raced, supercharged, abused tC.


Um your buds GS-R means LOL, :rofl: :rofl: wow a sample size of 1 and the engine was apart at 70K, yeah I think that just proves that automakers world wide just waste billions of $$$$ on dampers cause hey, you know a GS-R that went 70K and the crank did not fail. Did you read the part the vibration causes bearing failure? or accessory drive failure like oil pump. I sure if Toyota knew your bud's car went 70K before being ripped apart, they would just drop all R&D and call your bud up to run the design group cause 70K on from a GS-R is just so great :bow: :bow:

Not to mention the tC is NOT a GS-R and the tC uses plastic gears to drive counter shafts and we all know how plastic takes to long term vibrations....

Go ahead put UDP on your tC, it is your car. Some people may think there are other smarter ways to get a few HP for cheap.

I had one on my 2002 Celica GT-S for 10,000 miles and I never experienced a single problem.

would this be the same magical celica that beats WS6's?

someone please lock this thread!!!!!

I 2nd that.


lock this damn thread...........i started the damn thing and im tired of it.....LOCK IT!

I should also note that if you are talking the engine damper this is more then a pulley: it removes the vibration from the engine. A near crazy idea to remove this. As it directly effects the longevity of the engine, if not why would the factory, you know the guys that give you a warranty, go through all the trouble of making a heavy three piece damper if it was NOT needed? Simple it is needed especially with a steel crank which I assume the tC has. As steel tends to ring more then a cast crank. Also longer stroke cranks ala tC also tend to ring more. Basically meaning only a cringing newbie with no knowledge of fundamental engine dynamics would ever contemplating bolting on a light weight solid aluminum damper. THIS WILL VOID YOUR WARRANTY PERIOD.

http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=5

Fact: the factory spends big $$$ on each and every engine to make and install harmonic dampers.

Fact: MPG and HP would go up if the factory just milled a cheap aluminum pulley.

Fact: no factory does it. Why?

OK break-up into small grounps and discuss amoung yourselves.


Correct me if I am wrong (which I am sure someone will :rofl: ) but the crank pulley on our cars are only for the belt. On most vehicles it is called a harmonic balancer but I don't belive our cars have this b/c of the balancer shafts in the engine. So it would actually help in our cases for a few.

oldman, you're obviously more interested in arguing for the sake of having an argument over actually listening to what anyone says.

you said:
You clearly say “better designs” are passed over because the cost too much or that there was some strategy against the design. I completely missed the part about economies of scale providing an over engineered part one that cost significantly more to produce landing on a lesser car.

i talked about the economy of scale (although without using that exact phrase) here, which obviously you didn't read:
Many parts on production vehicles are borrowed from other production vehicles. If the cost of mass-producing one "expensive complicated part" (whatever THAT might be; usually anything "complicated" is comprised of subassemblies) is less than smaller-volume production of two simpler parts, then sure -- the "expensive complicated" part will be used.... even if it's not engineered specifically for each car.

as for this statement you made:
So the over engineered application would be the Camry automatic driven by grandma to church, not the tC driven by a male Gen Y.

yes, the tC is going to be driven to death and modded out, unlike grandma's Camry. however, mr. smart engineer, you completely miss the fact that the Camry came first by a long time. there was no tC in the mix when the 2.4L engine was designed. sheesh, talk about "egregious logic error"...

continuing the logic errors you make:
since your blather above indicates that economies of scale would dictate the part had to have been designed for grandma’s Camry auto, Toyota must have clearly felt it was NEEDED in an auto Camry with a sheltered life.

no, no, no. you excel at not listening. i think you are just looking for a way to make yourself supposedly look smart by quoting occam's razor. :blah: toyota may have had many different applications in mind when they put the 3-piece damper on our engine. "grandma's sheltered camry" may not have been one. perhaps they considered this engine for use in a small truck? again, you have a penchant for cooking up a silly hypothetical scenario and then talking about it as if it was real.

we have no idea what was in the minds of toyota's engineers or product planners. so we can't assume that just because "toyota did it this way" that the way they chose is the best. everything i have said in reply to you has been on the principle that all design is a compromise. YOU have chosen to say, ad nauseam, that extra power from a UDP is not worth what YOU consider to be a risk of engine damage someday in the future. fine, goodie for you. don't use a UDP. but stop being a jerk over the subject as if YOUR opinion is the ONLY one which is valid.

as for this:
Sure complaining customers will have their 15 minutes in front of an advocate and I don’t know if your dad’s expertise based on him tinkering with the family lawnmower is going to win against a Toyota prepared white paper on the subject of UD pulleys.

i do most of my own repair and mod work, my dad doesn't have anything to do with it nor does he tinker with the family lawnmower. you're just trying to somehow insult me here, and that's just sad. you have to stoop to insults to "prove" your point. i feel sad for you.

and then THIS:
So let me get this straight you are the first person I ever heard of blowing a Miata engine, and your are so happy that Mazda lost a ton of money on you. Great so you scammed a company to fixed something that you probable broke under tremendous abuse and conned poor company using their good will into fixing. I’m sure Mazda wants you as a customer. Come now Zack, how did you blow the Miata, did you miss shift playing out your version of F&F were you on the bottle, or did you screw up some performance part? Oh I know, I got it all wrong and you were driving down the street at normal speeds and the crank just flew out of the block, could happen to anyone.
I reasonably sure Toyota would be happy if you were not their customer, I’m sure they have delt with many “professional” SCA uber males. Loser

incredible. you don't know ANYTHING about what happened with my Miata, yet you've already decided that i scammed Mazda and somehow abused the engine. in a nutshell, at 22,000 miles a mazda dealer improperly put on the oil plug after an oil change (this was before i knew how to change my own oil). leaving from the dealer, it was not apparent that the plug was not threaded correctly. driving at freeway speeds down to san diego, the plug popped out and i lost all the oil. i did manage to "save" the engine by turning it off before all the oil was gone. after getting a new plug and oil, another dealer said the engine "seemed" fine but there was no way to really know. at 76,503 miles, with no more or less wear and tear than any other miata in the miata club (and this was before the UDP), my miata threw a rod (and no i was not racing when the rod was thrown). the thrown rod was directly attributed to the early loss of most oil within the engine. conjecture is that a hairline crack was formed which grew until the failure.

oh, and for all the people saying "lock this thread" -- here's a wild idea. just don't read it.

oldman, you're obviously more interested in arguing for the sake of having an argument over actually listening to what anyone says.

you said:
You clearly say “better designs” are passed over because the cost too much or that there was some strategy against the design. I completely missed the part about economies of scale providing an over engineered part one that cost significantly more to produce landing on a lesser car.

i talked about the economy of scale (although without using that exact phrase) here, which obviously you didn't read:
Many parts on production vehicles are borrowed from other production vehicles. If the cost of mass-producing one "expensive complicated part" (whatever THAT might be; usually anything "complicated" is comprised of subassemblies) is less than smaller-volume production of two simpler parts, then sure -- the "expensive complicated" part will be used.... even if it's not engineered specifically for each car.

as for this statement you made:
So the over engineered application would be the Camry automatic driven by grandma to church, not the tC driven by a male Gen Y.

yes, the tC is going to be driven to death and modded out, unlike grandma's Camry. however, mr. smart engineer, you completely miss the fact that the Camry came first by a long time. there was no tC in the mix when the 2.4L engine was designed. sheesh, talk about "egregious logic error"...

continuing the logic errors you make:
since your blather above indicates that economies of scale would dictate the part had to have been designed for grandma’s Camry auto, Toyota must have clearly felt it was NEEDED in an auto Camry with a sheltered life.

no, no, no. you excel at not listening. i think you are just looking for a way to make yourself supposedly look smart by quoting occam's razor. :blah: toyota may have had many different applications in mind when they put the 3-piece damper on our engine. "grandma's sheltered camry" may not have been one. perhaps they considered this engine for use in a small truck? again, you have a penchant for cooking up a silly hypothetical scenario and then talking about it as if it was real.

we have no idea what was in the minds of toyota's engineers or product planners. so we can't assume that just because "toyota did it this way" that the way they chose is the best. everything i have said in reply to you has been on the principle that all design is a compromise. YOU have chosen to say, ad nauseam, that extra power from a UDP is not worth what YOU consider to be a risk of engine damage someday in the future. fine, goodie for you. don't use a UDP. but stop being a jerk over the subject as if YOUR opinion is the ONLY one which is valid.

as for this:
Sure complaining customers will have their 15 minutes in front of an advocate and I don’t know if your dad’s expertise based on him tinkering with the family lawnmower is going to win against a Toyota prepared white paper on the subject of UD pulleys.

i do most of my own repair and mod work, my dad doesn't have anything to do with it nor does he tinker with the family lawnmower. you're just trying to somehow insult me here, and that's just sad. you have to stoop to insults to "prove" your point. i feel sad for you.

and then THIS:
So let me get this straight you are the first person I ever heard of blowing a Miata engine, and your are so happy that Mazda lost a ton of money on you. Great so you scammed a company to fixed something that you probable broke under tremendous abuse and conned poor company using their good will into fixing. I’m sure Mazda wants you as a customer. Come now Zack, how did you blow the Miata, did you miss shift playing out your version of F&F were you on the bottle, or did you screw up some performance part? Oh I know, I got it all wrong and you were driving down the street at normal speeds and the crank just flew out of the block, could happen to anyone.
I reasonably sure Toyota would be happy if you were not their customer, I’m sure they have delt with many “professional” SCA uber males. Loser

incredible. you don't know ANYTHING about what happened with my Miata, yet you've already decided that i scammed Mazda and somehow abused the engine. in a nutshell, at 22,000 miles a mazda dealer improperly put on the oil plug after an oil change (this was before i knew how to change my own oil). leaving from the dealer, it was not apparent that the plug was not threaded correctly. driving at freeway speeds down to san diego, the plug popped out and i lost all the oil. i did manage to "save" the engine by turning it off before all the oil was gone. after getting a new plug and oil, another dealer said the engine "seemed" fine but there was no way to really know. at 76,503 miles, with no more or less wear and tear than any other miata in the miata club (and this was before the UDP), my miata threw a rod (and no i was not racing when the rod was thrown). the thrown rod was directly attributed to the early loss of most oil within the engine. conjecture is that a hairline crack was formed which grew until the failure.

oh, and for all the people saying "lock this thread" -- here's a wild idea. just don't read it.



i was with you until that last statement. The only reason why i said to lock this topic was due to the fact of oldman turning it into a arguement and dissing people.

need to unsubscribe to this thread, its giving me a headache, someone should lock it

i was with you until that last statement. The only reason why i said to lock this topic was due to the fact of oldman turning it into a arguement and dissing people.

my apologies. i shouldn't have been so snippy. i was annoyed with oldman and his dissing me and that carried forward to others, which was wrong for me to do. i'm sorry.

i was with you until that last statement. The only reason why i said to lock this topic was due to the fact of oldman turning it into a arguement and dissing people.

my apologies. i shouldn't have been so snippy. i was annoyed with oldman and his dissing me and that carried forward to others, which was wrong for me to do. i'm sorry.


no worries