I'll be in the market for a car soon and narrowed my choices to:

xa
Civic sedan EX (used to own 98 coupe)
Echo

The xA has come out in front right now, but if comparing it to a civic what would be the pros and cons of each? (pick-up and go; real world mpg; finish etc....)

I was looking at the echo but after adding in all the stuff the xA has it costs more and probably has less mpg than a base model (which no one carries anyway)

Thanks,

Dom

I recently traded my 97 Honda Civic DX hatchback for a 05 Xa. The Honda was a great car it only required basic maintenance and gas that’s all. However, I found the Honda devoid of any personality. It was a means of getting to point A to point B it was nice to drive but not fun to drive. That the point that separate these two cars. When I was car shopping the Honda was not on my list. To me the Honda design team is on vacation. Like I said before it’s a good car in a plain paper bag.

The Scion is a blast to drive. It feels more powerful than the Civic due to the close ratio gearbox. It handles better than the Civic. It gets the same if not better gas mileage. It has unique styling and personality something that the Civic does not have. Yes, it’s physically smaller but when you sit in it it’s roomier than the Honda. Also it’s cheaper to boot and was rated one of the best cars in terms of total cost of ownership. Give it a chance if you drive I think you will love it. And for God’s sake don’t buy the Echo, no one else is!

haha~ I seriously thought that this would be one of those "tC vs. every other car" thread :relief: Glad to see that people who like the xA aren't prone to measuring the size of their di... I mean how fast their cars are :P

Putting that aside...

Get the xA. The new Civic EX is about 4-5k more in price (the DX is more in the price range). The Echo, while cheap, tack on all the accessories that are standard in the xA it will come out to be slightly higher.

All three are great commuter cars in their own respects, but the xA edges out most of it's competition by providing a solid score in all categories.

The best thing to do is to test drive all the cars and keep a little notebook to jot things down as you notice it. For most people, buying a new car is a long term committment. It's best to start it right at the beginning then to curse yourself down the road. :D

you've come to a place where the scion enthused gather to ask if scions are good cars. i just want to point out the bias present.

I dont have an xA, but i test drove one when i was buying a car back in november and decided to go tC because of the power and cruise control. Ive also driven a 2003 civic. I would go xA definitely. For that price, you cant beat it. And I think its a great looking stylish little car. The civic is very boring and plain and cost a lot more. Toyota and Honda both have equal reputation for reliability.

Oh, and cross the echo off your list. its ugly, and its more expensive when similarly equipped.

go xA! Let us know what you decide.

If you want low cost and high MPG, the Civic HX is going to be your best choice.

I agree about scratching the Echo off your list. Most of them are stripped and you don't even save anything over a Scion. The xa/b are such good values they make the Echo obsolete.

The Civic is a fine car, possibly a bit more refined than the xA/B. The engine is a bit larger (1.7) liters. Acceleration is going to be roughly the same, but the Civic will be more relaxed at highway speeds and is generally quieter.

The Civic has the superior suspension, the one big downside of the xA/B is they are saddled with a prehistoric and obsolete torsion beam rear axle, which is technically semi-independant. The Civic will always track better on the highway and handle turns with greater accuracy no matter what you do to the suspension on the xA/B.

Tough call. I can see the xB over the Civic for all the standard options and room the B has, but xA vs. Civic is much harder.

If you can afford it, I suggest seeking out one of the Civic Si hatchbacks. They are unpopular for some reason, but really excellent cars. Alcantra lined Recaro-like seats, rally style shifter on the dash. Excellent handling and 160 hp and not a porker like the tC.

xb their great

i went through the same dilemna...didnt know which way to go...but the color i wanted ( University of Kentucky Blue ) was available in the xA known to all as Indigo Ink...and the standard pwr accesories,along with an MP3 CD player sold me.

civic sedan, new, owned 5 years,
tacoma, new, owned, 5 years
xA, new, owned one month
still got the taco
xA better mpg, that's why I bought it but still got TRD springs and some 17's
basically, do you need a lot of room? hatch vs. trunk? my civic began to oxidize

xb their great

Sorry, he wasn't asking xA or xB... xB wasn't on his list... :P

Another future Scion owner likes the xA over the xB... deal with it...

:clap:

Another future Scion owner likes the xA over the xB... deal with it...



lol :rofl:

Here's the deal:

Even IF the Civic were better than the xA (which I believe it is NOT):
I avoid Honda for one reason, and one reason only-- theft. Honda's SUCK for theft. Odds are, someone will either break into your car, steal your stuff, or steal your car all together. It is VERY easy to steal a Honda. And say you are REALLY lucky, and don't get hit, you'll probably be missing a badge or two as well, and not in the clean, shaved way, but in the two holes in the trunk, ghetto way. 9/10 Honda owners I know have had at least SOMETHING happen to their cars.

This reason, in my opinion, is the most important reason to avoid Honda. And for those who quote Toyota theft rates as high, well, they are completely stupid. High theft rates are for 88-91 Corolla/Camry's. Newer Toyota's have few thefts, in respect to the almighty Civic, and the entire Honda/Acura line.
There are definitely many more reasons why an xA would be a smarter choice, but again, just think about how many Honda's you see with missing badges, stereos, or windows.

I've driven my friends 05 Civic Value Package before.

It's a decent looking car with a nice interior, but the drive is quite bland. Everything about the car is quite boring. The shifting is boring, the suspension is boring..everything.

Go test drive both. If you have any passion for automobiles, you'll understand what I mean.

Honda's SUCK for theft. Odds are, someone will either break into your car, steal your stuff, or steal your car all together. It is VERY easy to steal a Honda.

This also indicates something very interesting. Looking at a news article on MSN, Acuras and Hondas clutter the list of cars stolen most in 2003. Integras from 1994 to 1999 take up 6 of the top ten spots. The 2000 Civic takes up #10. Toyotas are further down the list, with the 1991 Camry at #16.

Typically, cars are stolen for their parts. The high number of Honda thefts would indicated that high numbers of Hondas made in the common years of cars stolen need parts. In other words, a lot of repairs must be happening on 94-99 Integras and on '94, '99, and '00 Civics. The fact that the only Toyotas on the list for 2003 are from the late '80s and early '90s would suggest that Toyotas were generally on the roads for over a decade before running into mechanical problems.

If you can afford it, I suggest seeking out one of the Civic Si hatchbacks. They are unpopular for some reason, but really excellent cars. Alcantra lined Recaro-like seats, rally style shifter on the dash. Excellent handling and 160 hp and not a porker like the tC.

i love this comment considering the tC beats the new SI pretty bad from any speed or a stop.

also, the tC is only 130lbs. heavier then a new SI.

all this for 3-5k more then a tC.

perhaps this is the reason they're unpopular?

OWNED!

the Si is EXTREMELY overpriced, and they are also stolen often. . . for their motors. For the same kind of money, why not get a true performance compact, the Neon SRT-4. The Civic Si is still in econocar territory. Econocar vs econocar, the entire Scion line holds a better value, dollar for dollar.

Civic = :yawn:

Echo = :rofl:

xA = 8)

To add to what everyone is saying, if you're still considering a Toy. Echo, they're being discontined after this year.

My pick, xA for you!

If you can afford it, I suggest seeking out one of the Civic Si hatchbacks. They are unpopular for some reason, but really excellent cars. Alcantra lined Recaro-like seats, rally style shifter on the dash. Excellent handling and 160 hp and not a porker like the tC.

i love this comment considering the tC beats the new SI pretty bad from any speed or a stop.

also, the tC is only 130lbs. heavier then a new SI.

all this for 3-5k more then a tC.

perhaps this is the reason they're unpopular?

The reason they are unpopular is because Americans prefer conservatively styled coupes like the tC over hatchbacks and because Honda priced them too high.

Based on the MSRPs alone, the tC is a much better value for sure....but..

Si's sell for thousands under sticker price, usually around the price of a tC actually. I know several people who've bought them for under $17k. Ask around and you'll see.

I just prefer the Civic's more accurate shifting and I feel its suspension is better tuned. The handling is noticeably better than tC, especially at the limit.

The tC is faster though, I agree completely. The extra torque the tC has is really noticeable. I'd be willing to trade the torque for a car that I think is more well sorted out though, especially when its a car with a bigger aftermarket for real performance parts than any Toyota will ever have. Another plus for me is that the Si is unique looking and rare, two things you will never be able to say about the tC.

It depends on your priorities. The tC is a good highway cruiser and nice and comfortable, the Si is a bit more tenacious and serious in a driver-oriented sort of way.

So buy a Civic and talk about it vs the tC somewhere other than the xA board, you guys are so far off topic is scary.

Anyways I say the xA but I am biased, Ive owned 2 of the 3 cars and driven the 3rd and I think the xA is the best overall.

Tell us why you prefer the xA over the Civic(s). That may help glockaxis decide.

I think one advantage of the xA is that it is a 4 door hatchback, a useful configuration that isn't available in any Civic sold in the U.S. It sounds like theft and vandalism could be an issue with Civics as well, thats something to consider.

It depends on what his priorities are. A Civic HX coupe will kill the xA in fuel mileage and Civics have better resale value than anything except an Accord, if that matters to him. I have to agree that the xA is a more interesting car than any of the Civic coupes, except maybe the EX and Si, but both of those are a bit overpriced. The xA is an excellent value.

I've actually managed to get about 35mpg, and my old roomie's Civic EX was gettin about 32. . . but it depends on the driver.

However, I'm not quite certain about resale value, as Toyota's are generally very good as well. Secondly, Scion intends to have short production runs with their models, it may or may not affect resale. I honestly believe that it will improve resale value, but there's no way to be certain.

thanks for all the replies. Ypu guys are a good bunch :clap: My criteria in what I'm looking for is:

MPG
peppyness (similar to my 98 civic ex auto)
manual
dependability
low insurance
4door (w/ some room inside)
resale
low price
amenities included

Toyota(have a 2004 4runner and had a 2003 tacoma 4cyl) and Honda (98 civic) were on my short list. American cars have been terrible in my experience as well as German cars (esp VWs) so I threw them out the window.

MPG seems to be even w/ the civic EX so the only thing I'm really concerned about is if it has the same acceleration as the EX, if the manual trans shifts as smoothly, and how much of an increase of RPMs will I have at sustained freeway speeds of 75-80?

If I coyuld get answers to these Q's it will really help make up my mind.

I posted this on another thread, but what kind of real world mpgs can I expect avg. if the a/c wasn't used?

Thanks again

An xA, believe it or not, has more legroom than a civic, last I checked. But cargo room sucks in an xA.

i'd go with the civic over an xA. I really think the xA is one of the worst looking cars on the road with the xB in a close 2nd.

you're definitely entitled to your opinion. It's a true point against the xA. . . some people don't like the styling.

But hey, I'll tell you, I get at least 2 people a day running up and asking questions about it. . . who makes it, how much, how fast, etc. . .

Civic's never get that kind of attention. Any kind of good styling will be controversial, it's a fact. Nobody hates Camry's, but nobody likes them either. . . because they are plain. tC's are plenty non offensive. . . and are also a viable option. . . just realize that in a few years, they will be as plain as paper. I really do like tC's tho, for an econo-coupe.

art is for people with taste, so it sells in low volume, but things from stores like ikea sell well because it is generic, non-offensive, painted plastic.

yeah I guess the aztek & element are a little worse. :)

i'd go with the civic over an xA. I really think the xA is one of the worst looking cars on the road with the xB in a close 2nd.
You are certainly entitled to be wrong. :P

Well i wouldnt say he is wrong about how the XA looks.. my first impression of it was that it was like an egg.. maybe not as bad as the new 05 civic si's but yeah. its all about preference of the driver.. I grew to love my XA.. its a great car.. I also own a 92 civic EG SI hatch.. which has its pro's and cons.. i dont know much about the echo but i wouldnt doubt it would be far behind in quality and mpg as the xa considering they have the same motors..

my civic si i love.. well the fact that it is an si with a stock short shift kit and so it feels nice when i shift.. everything is simple and traditional.. that may be a con for others. 4 wheel discs are a plus..

but the Xa.. just feels so much greater.. it is comfortable and nice. the shifting may not be as smooth as the eg because of its age but it has less play in the shifter. the pedals are set perfect (for me). and i like my rims on my ssm xa..

OH yeah! hey everyone.. i have rims on my xa! =].. they're 16" N-1 Rotas.. they're nice. i'll open a new thread later on so you guys can see..

but anywho.. the xa does get the same mileage if not better.. and that it has one more gallon available in the tank than that of the civic.. and its just oh so nice.. i find more pro's in the xa than the civic.. maybe if i put more effort in making the civic better but for now.. i love the mpg and i love the drive =]

thanks for all the replies. Ypu guys are a good bunch :clap: My criteria in what I'm looking for is:

MPG
peppyness (similar to my 98 civic ex auto)
manual
dependability
low insurance
4door (w/ some room inside)
resale
low price
amenities included

Toyota(have a 2004 4runner and had a 2003 tacoma 4cyl) and Honda (98 civic) were on my short list. American cars have been terrible in my experience as well as German cars (esp VWs) so I threw them out the window.

MPG seems to be even w/ the civic EX so the only thing I'm really concerned about is if it has the same acceleration as the EX, if the manual trans shifts as smoothly, and how much of an increase of RPMs will I have at sustained freeway speeds of 75-80?

If I coyuld get answers to these Q's it will really help make up my mind.

I posted this on another thread, but what kind of real world mpgs can I expect avg. if the a/c wasn't used?

Thanks again



The shifter is not as smooth and accurate as the Civic, but it's not bad. The acceleration is roughly equivalent, Civic EX does 0-60 in about 8.5 seconds, xA is close to that within 1/10. The EX has slightly more power, the xA has lower gearing.

In real world use, I would expect the Civic to return slightly better fuel economy.

I think the main advantage of the xA for you here is that its a 4 door hatch and it is a good deal less expensive than a 4 door Civic sedan.

To sum it up: A Civic sedan would give you slightly better depreciation, about the same performance, slightly better fuel economy, a bit more rear seat room and alot more trunk/cargo room. Civic also has a more sophisticated suspension which means more accurate handling/tracking on the highway and less of a busy, rubbery ride on uneven surfaces.

The xA will give you a shorter, easier to park car, a much lower entry price with a no haggle easy buying process and a much more unique looking vehicle with more chararcter than the generic Honda. The xA will be a little more crude as far as shifting and engine noise etc, but not so much as to be a big negative.

I think it's time for you to test drive and kick some tires. You might try driving a Civic and an xA back-to-back in an afternoon.

I suggest the Xa I think the entire Scion line is going to be the next civic meaning all parts manufactures will start stepping up to bat and making products for the Scion line up like they have for the civic. If you go on the street there are a million civics on the road so manufactures saw that and now make every piece you can think of for them. In my opinion Scion is going to be the same way I would buy the Scion Xa I think it would be the better decision its a nice car great gas milleage something different and im sure there will be tons of aftermarket parts out for it shortly.

I don't think the xA or xB will ever have the aftermarket the Civic enjoyed. For one, the primitive rear torsion beam we have is nothing compared to double-wishbone. Second, there is only one engine offered and it's hardly a performance motor. The Civics shared engines and interchangeable parts with other Hondas which enhanced the aftermarket. Nothing else will fit under the hood of these cars EXCEPT the smallest, least powerful engine Toyota makes (in the US) unless you do extensive modifications.

Toyota might have intended to get some of the Civic's Fast and Furious crowd with the Scions and they did, but 108 non upgradeable horsepower and 1940's suspension technology is not going to attract serious import tuners in droves. It's more about appearances than substance.

I think I'd have to agree that Scion's will never have the aftermarket support that Civics have. . . but also keep in mind that the Civic suspension has been downgraded for the recent generation to struts instead of the bad @ss dbl wishbone setup of previous generations. . .
The newer Civics are crap in terms of performance potential, when compared with the previous generation.

But I still think there is and will continue to be more support for Honda than Scion. . . at least until Scion produces a car with REAL potential for performance.

IMO, performance should not be a buying point for any Scion. . . it's all about how we demolish the competition in terms of reliability, style, price, value, quality, and ownership experience. Cool? Yes we are. Fast? Hardly. Hot models for future performance prospects are the Mazda3, Focus, anything with a VQ engine (Nissan), the Neon SRT-4, EVO, and Sti.

I've owned 3 Hondas (not including several cycles) and all I can say is: 1. Test drive both. 2. Price both. and finally........

Welcome to your new xA!

I think I'd have to agree that Scion's will never have the aftermarket support that Civics have. . . but also keep in mind that the Civic suspension has been downgraded for the recent generation to struts instead of the bad @ss dbl wishbone setup of previous generations. . .
The newer Civics are crap in terms of performance potential, when compared with the previous generation.


I have to strongly disagree there. A lot of crap is made about the elimination of double wishbones in favor of mac struts, but you know what. A BMW M3 has no double wishbones and it handles just fine. Mac struts are excellent and just as good in a well-sorted out suspension and still light years ahead of torsion beam and all of its compromises. The whining about the double-wishbones is a favorite rice boy pastime and most of them have no idea WTF they are talking about, they just repeat what others say. Sure, the lack of double wishbones make it harder to slam the car 12 inches, but thats about it. Mac struts sit under many of the best sports sedans and coupes you can get and they are excellent and highly tuneable.

As for perfrormance, Honda Civics are all moving to the new, torquey K-series engines used in the most recent Civic Si, and those motors have tremendous potential for real power and all have interchangeable parts. They also hold a lot of appeal for people who really disliked the torqueless Honda engines of the past.

IMO, Mac struts are a more of a compromise for ride and performance, however I see the trend following dbl wishbone for TRUE performance cars with mac struts. I honestly think BMW's are some of the worst vehicles ever manufactured on the planet. I can't stand them. . . I'd much rather stick to Porsche, if we're talkin that league of cars.

xA = style, eco-box to the max, nice value kept over years

echo = eco-box to the max, mid type value, i see it as a desposable car

civic = beefier ecobox, traditional styling, yes, easy to steal...

basically it's either civic for "eco-performance", xA for really good eco and style, and echo for stright out eco. :P

IMO, Mac struts are a more of a compromise for ride and performance, however I see the trend following dbl wishbone for TRUE performance cars with mac struts. I honestly think BMW's are some of the worst vehicles ever manufactured on the planet. I can't stand them. . . I'd much rather stick to Porsche, if we're talkin that league of cars.

If you think BMW's are some of the worst vehicles on the planet, you either don't know much about cars or you're allowing your opinion of some BMW drivers or some personal anecdote about BMWs to influence you. BMW pretty much invented the sports sedan and like it or not there is nothing compromised about an M3.

xA = style, eco-box to the max, nice value kept over years

echo = eco-box to the max, mid type value, i see it as a desposable car

civic = beefier ecobox, traditional styling, yes, easy to steal...

basically it's either civic for "eco-performance", xA for really good eco and style, and echo for stright out eco. :P

Just to set the record straight. The Civic will retain more value than the xA and it isn't any easier to steal.

but it is more attractive to steal. anyways, i just wanna point out that the ownership crowd that the xA has, is cooler than the civic ownership crowd :P

IMO, Mac struts are a more of a compromise for ride and performance, however I see the trend following dbl wishbone for TRUE performance cars with mac struts. I honestly think BMW's are some of the worst vehicles ever manufactured on the planet. I can't stand them. . . I'd much rather stick to Porsche, if we're talkin that league of cars.

If you think BMW's are some of the worst vehicles on the planet, you either don't know much about cars or you're allowing your opinion of some BMW drivers or some personal anecdote about BMWs to influence you. BMW pretty much invented the sports sedan and like it or not there is nothing compromised about an M3.

I've owned one. . . and my brother currently owns/owned a 540. It's the worst car in our entire family fleet. The wright brothers invented the airplane. . . doesn't mean I'd take one of their models over a Lear Jet.

In my opinion there is no such thing as a sports sedan. You can have a sports car, and and a sporty sedan. Their cars are supposed to be luxury cars with flavor. If comparing from a pure performance standpoint, I'd much rather take a Boxter over a BMW. And if you want to compare handling, I'd take an IS300 over a standard 3 series (and it is a HOT seller in europe, which should say something). For an all around luxury sedan, I'd take an LS430 or GS430. That friggin 540 was in the shop within a few days of delivery, and it was in the shop for almost a week. BMW, IMO, is just not what it used to be.

However I will respect your opinion. . . there are a lot of die hard fans of BMW, and I can somewhat understand why, but I personally feel that there are better alternatives. . . which is just an opinion.

Just to set the record straight. The Civic will retain more value than the xA and it isn't any easier to steal.

You're probably right on the resale value. . . but ask anyone who's ever picked locks before. . . Honda tumblers are pure crap. Very easy to break and/or pick. In fact, there are a couple tricks to use where you won't even have to pick the lock. Secondly, as stated, they are more attractive to steal. Regardless the reason, look at the numbers-- the Civic is stolen in HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE numbers.

Regardless the reason, look at the numbers-- the Civic is stolen in HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE numbers.

Well you have to consider how many civics are out there a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE number. An xA would less likely to be stolen or broken into. It turns people off. They can't stand the sight of it, let alone break into it, lol IMO. FYI, I liked the xA when it came out, but now I'm all tC. :P

THen compare it with the Corolla. . . or Camry, or Matrix, or even all three combined. You'd have to be absolutely blind to numbers and statistics to not see the trend.

Porsche 911 uses a strut suspension.

Sorry, just trying to bring it away from BMW's recent reliability horrors.

If you're looking for a car with the possibility of being fast and want a reliable and stylish daily driver, but an xA... and an early 90's Civic hatch.

-Justin

Thanks for all the responses. I'm waiting to sell our gas guzzler before I make a move. (anyone in SoCal interested in an 04 4Runner Sport 2wd ??? PM me for the details) Anyway, 2 more questions:

1. civic LX and EX manual trans early/mid/high speeds vs. a Manual xA. In other words, would both pull away even from a light? Will all three stay pretty much even all the way to 5th gear?

2. Will a baby's car seat fit in the back seat? How tight will it be and will only one other person fit back there? Any one out there with a car seat in the xA?

Thanks. I'll propbably test drive both in the next few weeks. Thanks for all your help. So far the xA is in the forefront, but my test ride might change all that. I'll keep you posted.

To answer your questions I think the Xa would pull away faster from the stoplight due to the fact the gears are so close. I have a booster seat in the back in the back for my son. He fits fine and what's nice the center seat in the back has a shoulder belt. The only negative the Xa does not have clip on the rear floor for a tether(SP?) Others have posted here of fitting a rear facing car seat with know problem. Give it the ultimate test as I did bring the car seat and your child for the test drive :P

I think the xA would launch a little harder off the line, after that they would be pretty even, with the Honda getting the slight edge in the high RPM's. The Honda engine will rev a little more quickly since it's got a short stroke.

A baby car seat will fit fine in the back of the xA with room for one adult next to it, MAYBE an Adult and a small child in the middle position, but thats it.

The xB has much more room in the back seat, you should look at it, if this is a concern.

The Si ism popular with highschool kids. Civics in general are. I can think of at least 3 si where I go to school. The rest are sedans and coupes. I'm the only one driving a Scion though...yay for being unique!!

The Si is great fun. I came close to getting one myself, actually.

It's actually pretty unique too, they aren't all that common because most American's have stupid hatchback phobia.

Another future Scion owner likes the xA over the xB... deal with it...



lol :rofl:

dude u jacked my avatar...