Need suggestions...

Hit the gas, turn the wheel, car should handle as was designed.

But seriously, strut tower brace, larger wheels, lower profile tires, lowering springs all help.

Actually you will want to upgrade your rear sway bar....if you want do the front too

Personally I think the stock front sway bar is thick enough....if you want it to work more efficently then upgrade the endlinks and upgrade the swaybar bushings

But the rest yea.....better tires

As for a strut tower bar....REAR ONLY you will see really no benefit with a front because the shock towers are so close to the fire wall

Thicker rear anti-sway bar is the single best bang for the buck mod you can do for handling.

DON'T add a thicker FRONT bar, unless you want worse handling and you like understeer.

DON'T get a strut tower bar, unless you're just doing it for looks because they do d*ck for handling in reality.

Tires and wheels can do a great deal. I would consider the rear anti-sway and some LIGHT wheels with ultra high performance tires. Size isn't as important as weight. 18's and 19's aren't going to handle that much better than 16's or 17's, you will just ride like crap, have heavier wheels and pay out the a$$ for your tires. If you fo it for looks, cool, but for performance, go with some very light 16's honestly.

After that, see if you want suspension. Consider some coilovers.

A note on wheel size,
Size does matter.....with equally weighted wheels the smaller one has less rotating mass than it's larger counterpart which in turn is easier to spin-up coming out of a corner and also makes less work for the brakes, all is very important to getting a smaller lower horsepower car to handle. I was running 17's with 205/40's and have switched to 15's with 205/50's for this reason, the thicker sidewall also give you that much more of a complient ride over rougher roads allowing the suspention to do it's work better.....

I have to agree, 15's give a much better ride than 17+ wheels. A modest drop of 1~1.25" doesn't hurt either.

Actually you want a neutral tire size 15 is still too much sidewall for seriously spirited driving some light weight 16's should work nice.And thicker tires just eat up more bump and alter how your suspension works , coilovers on steelies would be dumb the tires eat up bumps causing an extra buffer between car and the road, you want the suspension to do work not the tires sidewall. if you go with 16's and a 45 or 50 series wou should still have a "compliant" ride as well as a stiffer sidewall.

front sways can improve handling if the car has a lot of body roll... this is more true I think if you have soft springs in the front, so don't discount upgrading it completely.

"Stiffer front sway bars will, in many cases, decrease understeer because of reduced body roll and better camber control."

from this page
http://www.rogerkrausracing.com/overundr.html

which was cited here before in the oversteer/understeer discussions.

Btw where can you get stuff to upgrade the bushings and endlinks for the front sways... i may need it when I put the springs in.

front sways can improve handling if the car has a lot of body roll... this is more true I think if you have soft springs in the front, so don't discount upgrading it completely.

"Stiffer front sway bars will, in many cases, decrease understeer because of reduced body roll and better camber control."

from this page
http://www.rogerkrausracing.com/overundr.html

which was cited here before in the oversteer/understeer discussions.

Btw where can you get stuff to upgrade the bushings and endlinks for the front sways... i may need it when I put the springs in.Energy suspension , eurethane

For Everyday STOCK racing in CITY TRAFFIC , I think they came up with a nice Size and Road Handling to start the car out with, I was Supprised ~How tight the Handling and Cornering the STOCK xB IS~ I thought the STABILITY CONTROL gave the xBOX more of a SPORT TUNING- FEEL . I have been VERY SATISFIED with my car. :D :bow: But I ~ONLY RACE~ in EVERYDAY TRAFFIC :silly:

Actually you will want to upgrade your rear sway bar....

Thicker rear anti-sway bar is the single best bang for the buck mod you can do for handling.

these two are soooooo close on this one...

its ADD a rear sway bar, there is not one there to upgrade or get a thicker one....

ADD a rear sway bar....single best mod for handling(city or highway...)

I would run a nice set of springs (Tein Stechs/Df210's/Goldlines). A great light weight set of rims and high quality tires. Also look into lower frame braces ( GT spec type 2 front bar and TRD rear lower bar. If you want it real fast in the turns SWAYBAR for the rear and I run a new front one as well some on here dont. Its all your choice. Hope this helped


PM me for any questions about parts i listed.

Actually you will want to upgrade your rear sway bar....

Thicker rear anti-sway bar is the single best bang for the buck mod you can do for handling.

these two are soooooo close on this one...

its ADD a rear sway bar, there is not one there to upgrade or get a thicker one....

ADD a rear sway bar....single best mod for handling(city or highway...)

Hey DG does the stock RSB still contribute if you bolt a thick RSB like the progress one on?
The hotchkis one is small and flexes.. so i'm guessing that's why they say it works in conjunction with the stock rear sway..
But the progress is a stiff hunk of metal..
I'm just wondering cuz then in that case.. it really isn't "adding" .. its replacing even though we never take the stock one off.

ok, plain and simple...the xA and xB do NOT have a stock rear sway bar...

if you DO NOT have a stock one you can not get a thicker one or upgrade it....

you will ADD a rear sway bar to the car...got it.

it does not matter which one you go for, you will be adding it....

Does anyone have a pic of either the progress or the hochkis bar installed?

I did the Hotchkis thing on my '05xB. Front & Rear bars and their sport springs, too.
Curves I used to take at 30 I'm taking at 45 now. And the car stays level when I enter a turn. They don't drop the car to the ground like some springs do. It's only low enough to be just right for handling. About 1.5" lower. I haven't bottomed out yet.

Springs go on easy, and the rear bar is on in 10 minutes. But man is that front bar tough to change out!

front sways can improve handling if the car has a lot of body roll... this is more true I think if you have soft springs in the front, so don't discount upgrading it completely.

"Stiffer front sway bars will, in many cases, decrease understeer because of reduced body roll and better camber control."

from this page
http://www.rogerkrausracing.com/overundr.html

which was cited here before in the oversteer/understeer discussions.

Btw where can you get stuff to upgrade the bushings and endlinks for the front sways... i may need it when I put the springs in.

I respectfully disagree. That especially doesn't apply in a FWD, front-engine car. Perhaps in a long wheelbase RWD car with the engine mostly behind the front axle that could be true.

He suggests alot of things there, that while technically correct, taken out of context, would make your handling worse.

I respectfully disagree. That especially doesn't apply in a FWD, front-engine car. Perhaps in a long wheelbase RWD car with the engine mostly behind the front axle that could be true.

He suggests alot of things there, that while technically correct, taken out of context, would make your handling worse.
Crap!!
I better let everyone that runs stock class SCCA that the stiffer front sway doesn't reduce understeer. I bet all those Mini and Civic Drivers are Imagining it.

:loser:

Does anyone have a pic of either the progress or the hochkis bar installed?

Anyone? :pray:

http://www.scionlife.com/features/2004010/003.jpg

That rear shock bar does absolutely nothing.

http://www.scionlife.com/features/2004010/003.jpg

That is retarded. Explain to me how that is supposed to do anything except make you look like a ricer. Please tell me that this baffoon also added a giant APC wing to his box...


Rear does not have struts, it's a swing arm design. It does nothing to brace the shock towers in the rear.

Coming from someone who actually races his car on road courses, and SCCA solo events.

Add a thicker front sway bar. Add a rear sway bar for street/road course driving. Do not add a rear sway bar for SCCA solo events, you will understeer in those tight corners profusely.

Add a good set of coilovers. If you are on a budget, get the H&R club kit setup. Matched springs and struts/shocks. Do not lower your xB on stock struts, they will bottom out, or rest on the bump stops in heavy cornering. If you're going to do that, forego the springs, and just install havey bump stops....

Third, move to a set of 17" rim, make them light weight, get some sticky tires. If you're going racing, get yourself some street tires, and some race tires. It's more money, but works out better for you in the long run.

Add a limited slip differential.

Upgrade your front brake pads, remove the guard on the rear of the front brake discs to allow more airflow.

Add a decent front strut bar, one that doesn't have any adjustable points in it. Yes the struts are right next to the firewall, but they still flex. Add underbody stiffeners.

Add a real driving seat. Something that fits your body size and holds you in place. Also get a nice harness.

If you are going road racing (not just SCCA solo event style cone chasing), you should think about adding power. A good short ram intake, header, exhaust combo should work well for most road racing.

Adding something like a supercharger might be a good idea if you're going to be competing in a class that allows it.

You will also want to look at brake upgrades if you are going road racing. Continued abuse on the factory disc/drum will end up making you have to pull into the pits to put out fires. For the rear I would just do the disc conversion kit, don't spend alot of time there, get the Yaris/Vitz rear disc setup and bolt it on. On the front you'll want to go with a reasonable brand name brake upgrade kit. Get something with 4 piston, 2 on each side of the disc. Cross drilled has shown no real improvement in cooling or friction. Slotted rotors are what you are looking for, they allow the gasses created by the friction surfaces to escape from under the pad, and they also keep a clean surface on the pads.

Don't expect high top speeds, aerodynamics tend to halt your serious acceleration at around 80mph, so try to get to that has fast as possible. You will accelerate after 80, but not with any gusto. Record your times, be consitent, and don't brake ____. Learn from your mistakes, and learn the tracks.

If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me, and I'll try to answer them the best I can, or point you in the direction of someone who can.

Does anyone have a pic of either the progress or the hochkis bar installed?

Front or rear bar?

ok, plain and simple...the xA and xB do NOT have a stock rear sway bar...

if you DO NOT have a stock one you can not get a thicker one or upgrade it....

you will ADD a rear sway bar to the car...got it.

it does not matter which one you go for, you will be adding it....

???
what is that black bar then?... you can see it here:
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SAAAAPcUeutelEGznjDn2DQPosh6lOtayIz94ffcZmf58u9LnrLl6LbY8LtEsda1y*Stcz5oNsx1SdlE7KMlGpzRj9UBylUmUM7wvRnV6iYAAAAAAAAAAA/R%20Brace4.jpg
its right above the blue trd brace.


Hotchkis also makes reference to a stock RSB on their site:
"Note: Rear bar is a add on bar and is designed to work in conjunction with factory rear bar. "
http://www.hotchkistuning.com/cgi-bin/EDCstore.pl?user_action=detail&catalogno=22412

I always assumed that's the rear bar they meant...

Add a thicker front sway bar. Add a rear sway bar for street/road course driving. Do not add a rear sway bar for SCCA solo events, you will understeer in those tight corners profusely.

did you mean oversteer? I thought RSBs decreased understeer and increased oversteer?

Add a thicker front sway bar. Add a rear sway bar for street/road course driving. Do not add a rear sway bar for SCCA solo events, you will understeer in those tight corners profusely.

did you mean oversteer? I thought RSBs decreased understeer and increased oversteer?

Not on really tight corners. It will keep the rear planted too well. You need to rear tires to come unstuck and rotate around at low speed to get around cones well. In a RWD car you want to almost lock the rear suspension and use power to rotate the car, but in FWD you need to roll the chasis a little and unstick the rear tires.

On a road course you'd want the rear sway bar as it will help keep the rear tires planted and help you in four wheel drifts in high speed turns where you can modulate the brakes to bring the rear end around.

Being as easy as it is to bolt the rear sway bars on... 4 bolts and you are ready for some cone actions, it's really a good idea overall to just get a nice matched sway bar kit like the Hotchkis.

heres my rear strut tower brace....lol :rofl:

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/748000-748999/748838_20.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/4/web/748000-748999/748838_21.jpg

sounds so good you forget all about the handling....lol

I respectfully disagree. That especially doesn't apply in a FWD, front-engine car. Perhaps in a long wheelbase RWD car with the engine mostly behind the front axle that could be true.

He suggests alot of things there, that while technically correct, taken out of context, would make your handling worse.
Crap!!
I better let everyone that runs stock class SCCA that the stiffer front sway doesn't reduce understeer. I bet all those Mini and Civic Drivers are Imagining it.

:loser:

EDIT

Please follow forum rules

By Avoiding people like you everywhere 'Nest', Really you should avoid insulting people online, it really isnt mature. You have no Idea who I am and I really don't care who you are.

i was wondering how thing suddenly turned hostile...
anyhoo...
so is the consensus that front sways will or won't reduce understeer on the xB? Please answer if you KNOW and not speculating (since we all seem to know the theory).
And to what extent would it depend on other suspension components?

You'll have to do a bit of your own research to see what applies to this car.

Ashe thinks a nice thick sway bar will help understeer.

I think on this car especially, it will create more understeer.

We have a difference of opinion

Then again, Ashe also thinks that 1.5 liter Scion can truck along the highway at 75 mph at only 2000 RPM. You'll have to decide what that says about his knowledge and understand of automobiles.

By Avoiding people like you everywhere 'Nest', Really you should avoid insulting people online, it really isnt mature. You have no Idea who I am and I really don't care who you are.


You'll probably have to add another name to your list soon at this rate. I'm sure I'll be banned before too long here. :rofl:

Who knows, maybe I'll get tired of talking about cars to people who are more interested in carbon fiber fuel door stickers than how cars actually work and I'll stick to other forums. Keep your fingers crossed. :eyebrow:

You'll have to do a bit of your own research to see what applies to this car.

Ashe thinks a nice thick sway bar will help understeer.

I think on this car especially, it will create more understeer.

We have a difference of opinion

Then again, Ashe also thinks that 1.5 liter Scion can truck along the highway at 75 mph at only 2000 RPM. You'll have to decide what that says about his knowledge and understand of automobiles.

We do have a difference of opinion, Vehicle suspension can be really complicated with each individual component interacting with the others so that you may add a thicker sway bar in the front and get more understeer, while I may add one (with my car having a differing suspension setup) and the only result I get would be a reduction in the amount of unloading I get on the front inside tire during hard cornering , reducing wheelspin. Too much and The wheel lifts tho so its a balancing act.

As for the 75MPH at 2000 RPM, At no point did I ever say that, I used an Arbitrary number of 2500 rpm but I think you want to read too much into that, That however is off topic.

There is no One fix eliminating understeer, DGTLLVR seems to have an issue with getting understeer with a RSB, whereas I personally prefer my suspension/chassis to be as locked together as possible , if done right you can lift the rear inside wheel off the ground.
http://neon.atsweb.net/13wheel_mizzu.jpghttp://neon.atsweb.net/3WGREY9.jpg

Actually if its Done too well you can lift more than just the inside rear wheels
http://neon.atsweb.net/2_wheeler.gif

Also Understeer is directly related to the traction Circle, you can brake 100% and turn 100% but not at the same time, when you try and do both braking usually wins which means that your tires already at the limit of traction instead of providing grip to turn the vehicle slide over the road, the more you turn the worse it gets (this is especially noticable on slick or wet surfaces), if you unwind the steering wheel a little bit, some traction returns.
One way to avoid this is to brake in a straight line and stop braking before turn in, Trailbraking if done right can cause oversteer in most cars, however the xA and xB have toe correcting forward bushing in the rear axel causing the rear outside tire to toe in, instead of the normal toe out, when lateral forces are applied to the rear wheels. Rear toe in will cause understeer because the rear doesn't want to rotate. However if you push the xA to the limit you can spin out(as I once discovered to my chagrin :doh:)One way you could 'fix' this is to replace the toe correcting bushings with some 'normal' bushings, it won't eliminate understeer but it would help reduce it.

Alot of things in performance handling are counter intuitive (such as Higher PSI = more Grip in turns ). Every single thing on your suspension will affect everything else. Ride height (Front and rear), Spring/Shock stiffness, Sway bar stiffness, Bushings, Tire sidewall, ect.
An SCCA National Champion told me "How quickly you turn is directly related to weight transfer, How much, where, and How long it takes. The less weight you transfer the faster you transfer it, the faster you can turn."

99% of the owners of these cars will never get near the limits of handling,

At no point is anything I state in my post an sort of personal attack on anyone, If we have differing points of view, we have differing points of view. Everything I state is from personal experience, or personal belief. I believe I am an intelligent educated person, Your beliefs may vary.

There is no One fix eliminating understeer, DGTLLVR seems to have an issue with getting understeer with a RSB, whereas I personally prefer my suspension/chassis to be as locked together as possible , if done right you can lift the rear inside wheel off the ground.

You said it is about weight transfer. You don't however mention adhesion, momentum, articulation, rebound, damping, compression, or any number of other factors that are a part of the complete process.

Yeah and using R compound tires you might be able to do that... But, I cannot lift my tires off the ground. I do that on purpose as 4 tires have more grip than 3 tires. Don't post pictures backing up this weird theory you have on how cars work. Get out on the track and learn. If anyone has an issue with my suggestions please feel free to prove me wrong at the track. Untill then, I'm correct.

There is one fix to reducing understeer, and that is getting more traction to the front wheels, less to the rear. Please explain how this is incorrect.

I stated "An SCCA National Champion told me "How quickly you turn is directly related to weight transfer, How much, where, and How long it takes." Not that its ALL about weight transfer, that turn in speed is directly related to weight transfer. If you have really soft springs and shocks you turn in slower, correct?

I wasn't backing up some "weird theory" , I never said you were wrong, I was saying that I have never experienced understeer because of an RSB, my experience has always been the opposite, your situation is the first time I've ever heard of an RSB causing understeer. Like I said I have never lifted any of my xA's wheels tho some of the people I compete against do it on a regular basis with street tires. They generally get better times than the people who don't because they are at the very edge of the available traction whereas most of us are not.
As for getting out on the track and learning, I have been, For 12 years, I may not be the best, but I don't pretend I am either.
There is one fix to reducing understeer, and that is getting more traction to the front wheels, less to the rear.
Please explain where I said this was incorrect. I don't really think you understood what I said.

Just got the progress sway bar...Took about 15 min to install... A+++ Made a deffinate improvement..

Here's something I have found while researching and my conclusion. The scion xB has an echo engine, but the gear ratio is different from xA/echo, it's actually from a Toyota Yaris. Anywho, if you look at Toyota cars with a 1.5 liter engine they are fitted with 175x65x14, which makes 185x60x15 a plus ONE sizing. The bB is also plus sized. What I did was use the wheel/tire calculator to find the best plus ONE sizing from a 175x65x14 which came to 205x50x15 or 195x55x15. I picked the 205x50x15 because of the choices I had with tires.

15 is the only way to go with 205 as the widest tire width unless you plan to BOOST it or somehow put out a lot more power.

Like I said before there are more pros than cons with 15s since they save gas, take faster launches, cheaper, and less people wanting to steal your rims, and on and on and on.

In conclusion it's what you want, 4 SHOW or 2 GO. Also if you get the H&R cup kit or full coilover suspesion setup you'll get rid of the wheel gap if you're worried about the looks, etc.

Stiffer FSB for a FF car will cause the BOX to PUSH (understeer).

The things I write here are not of my opinion, but from what I have researched from people who have been autoxing for a long time.

Some racers don't even use sway bars, instead they use stiffer springs.

But for daily drivers you don't have to use something like 500+lbs. springs, but use tie bars, strut bars, sway bars, anything to make the chasis stiffer.

I like H&R cupkit because they use shortened shocks/struts, so the lack of suspension travel aint' no worries cuz bumpsteer is scary at highspeeds. Solid, not hollow RSB are the only way to go, not like hotchkis cuz they are hollow. But really the most important things are tires and shocks/springs. Also if you want to turn better higher psi for front tires than rear, like 32 front and 29 rear.

I think you really need to bring up the rear deflector shields and replace that
burnt coupling in the hyper drive. That should help with the xB's handling.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :P :rofl: :P :rofl: :P :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I think you really need to bring up the rear deflector shields and replace that
burnt coupling in the hyper drive. That should help with the xB's handling.

Stop being silly Raven...

Everyone knows you just need to properly calibrate the inertial dampners.

coilovers (never adjust to stiffest level, there is such thing as too stiff), sways, front strut, rear strut, frame braces, sitting on 15'' rims with something like 215/40s, and you'll be alright. :)

i'm not a expert or anything and i dont pretend to be but you know there is a simple way to find out if the front strut bar and rear sway bar actaully work. test one out. because the difference is so noticeable you'd have to be an idiot not to feel the difference.

everyone of the naysayers, i guarantee have never driven or been a passenger in an xb with the bar on.

if you have doubts about it being effective ask someone for a ride who has the bar installed. simple as that. the steering response is sharper at ALL speeds, it handles much better, i havent heard my tires squeal going into corners since i installed it.

I am on 17 wheels, lowered 2" on Tannabe springs....handles like a dream....I cant imagine what it will be like when I add a few more upgrades.

The thing thing that would benifit the XB the most is a fricken diff. It's horrible on slow turns.

^^FWD?

^^^^ Yes you got a PROBLEM with a FWD DIFF wise guy?

Grimgrak, no need to be an a$$.

I am just asking cause I thought the FWD cars had no diff, only a driveshaft to the one driven front wheel. Jeez!

BTW, my xB goes slow real well.

Chill out, bro.

lol what do you mean "horrible" on slow turns?

From a stop turn your wheel about 90 degrees and floor it till you redline in first. Tell me it doesn't lack grip like a 300lb woman on ice skates.
Grimgrak, no need to be an a$$.

I am just asking cause I thought the FWD cars had no diff, only a driveshaft to the one driven front wheel. Jeez!

BTW, my xB goes slow real well.

Chill out, bro.

I equate the need for limited slip diffentials with cars that make power.

I would much rather apply the cost of a LSD on a more powerful motor so I could spin that one wheel even sooner!!! :P

Here's something I have found while researching and my conclusion. The scion xB has an echo engine, but the gear ratio is different from xA/echo, it's actually from a Toyota Yaris.

ACTUALLY the xa/xB have the same trans which has different gearing than the trans which is used in the echo/yaris.

the echo/yaris gearing is horrible for how little power these cars have BUT their gearing is complimentary for gas mileage . our are more aggressively geared to make them a smidge faster especially since we have more weight to lug around than they do.

The echo is 400+ lbs lighter than any Scion xa / xb.

Now...

Put a scion final-drive in an echo and it's be a damn pocket-rocket!

Put an echo final-drive in a scion... and it'd be a slug.... esp with 18+" wheels!
:P

exactly. and last i checked the echo weish 2200 , not 2000 pounds. fast or not a TINY and TINNY 2000 pound car would be nowhere near fun as a daily. way too much wind.

but yeah . yaris is the same was. they weigh about 2200 but they have the echo gears in em .