NEWS: Morning Sentinel

Reader cites accident as testament to Scion xB's safety

"Early Monday morning, Pete and I had a serious auto accident. ... There weren't any other cars on the road -- a very quiet night. When all of a sudden, a car came speeding like mad up the same lane we were in (the middle). Pete saw it coming in the rear-view (he was driving), and I heard it. It sounded like a train. Pete said, 'Hold on, this guy is coming fast.' He couldn't really change lanes, just grip the wheel and hope the guy got around us fast. The driver of the other car did one of those video-game-like moves where he got right up behind us, jerked his steering wheel to the left to pass, and then jerked the wheel right again immediately after passing us to get back in our lane.

Unfortunately, he hit us on the way back into our lane. We were going 65, and we think he was going somewhere between 100 and 110 mph. We went flying into the median strip and started somersaulting. We rolled at least once on top of the guardrail. I think we're alive today because our car (Scion xB) has roll bars and state-of-the-art safety features. If it didn't, the car would have probably been sliced in two, and us with it. We were also both wearing our seat belts. The air bags deployed, and we couldn't see anything outside the car as we rolled across the median strip. ... As we crashed and rolled, we kept expecting to cross into the truck lanes beyond the median and get hit by one of the big rigs. As the car was spinning, we kept thinking, 'We're going to die now' ... just kept waiting for the lights to go out. When the car came to a stop, we smelled the smoke from the air bags and thought the car was on fire. My door wouldn't open, and I tried to kick it open but we got out Pete's door, and we found that we were still in the median. Our car had come to a rest upright. The other car was also in the median, still upside down, with at least two people trapped inside. The EMTs told us that there were no fatalities, but that the other carload were hurting -- serious back injuries. They had to be cut out of the vehicle. I don't have any idea why they were driving like they were. They had no reason to pass us in the manner that they did. ... Our insurance finds us 0 percent at fault. We're very happy to be alive, the two of us!
. . .
:bow:
Source: http://morningsentinel.mainetoday.com/news/local/1466021.shtml

wow...my boy here in jax just got hit by a dodge ram, he is in the trauma unit at a local hospital (hopes and prayers w him pls), yet another testament to the safety....the box DROVE AWAY FROM THE SCENE.....

Wow, awesome story!

scarry ...arghh...
hey raven since we have major holes in our roof.. were should worry now.

thats a good read....i might print that out for customers.

thank goodness noone was seriously injured... what could be so important to a driver to risk the lives of others by going so damn fast?

Wow, that's an amazing story. I hope the other driver/passengers aren't hurt too bad and can learn from this very serious error. They're forunate they didn't kill anyone.

Great story. Glad you all are alright, I would be beating some serious you know what..

I'd be seriously ____ed at the idiot(s) in the other car...

what? xb's don't have side impact airbags? xa's have them as an option, side curten airbags, is what i think they are listed as. Just wondering, since they guy didn't recommend the xb.

i think someone posted this a few days ago. anyways, i'm still glad the xB hold on and everyone is okay.
http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52901&highlight=tom

I agree with Tom and Ray 100%. These cars should have side airbags. It was an unfortunate omission.

For some reason Japanese and American manufacturers think it's acceptable to leave out safety features based on the price of the car, or make them optional and I think that is bullsh*t. Toyota should have worked out a way to fit SAB in all these cars, it saves lives.

European cars typically don't pull this trick. Even the base model Volkswagen Jetta I bought a few years ago for $16k has side airbags and it didn't even have power windows!

I'd give up power windows for SAB, honestly. Maybe most people wouldn't but I don't mind rolling up the window, it's just one less thing to worry about. Power windows break eventually.

I agree with Tom and Ray 100%. These cars should have side airbags. It was an unfortunate omission.

For some reason Japanese and American manufacturers think it's acceptable to leave out safety features based on the price of the car, or make them optional and I think that is bullsh*t. Toyota should have worked out a way to fit SAB in all these cars, it saves lives.

European cars typically don't pull this trick. Even the base model Volkswagen Jetta I bought a few years ago for $16k has side airbags and it didn't even have power windows!

I'd give up power windows for SAB, honestly. Maybe most people wouldn't but I don't mind rolling up the window, it's just one less thing to worry about. Power windows break eventually.

I don't think your assessment is quite fair there. Actually, I'm pretty sure there must be a technical/practical/engineering reason they left out side air bags. After all scion included side air bags as an option for both the xA and the tC. Which leads me to believe there is some factor preventing SABs from being an option on the xB.

Furthermore I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that current SABs actually affect passenger safety in any meaningful statistical way. AFAIK currently my insurance company doesn't even differentiate between having side air bags or just front air bags (though that may have some thing to do with state laws and regs).
A few years back there was some discussion that air-bags (including and noting SABs) in vehicles were poorly designed and may in fact cause injuries rather than prevent them. Personally, I'd be rather worried about an explosive force sitting around my arm set to go off in the event of a collision force of just <12 mph.

If Scion didn't care about safety.. then why did they bother including VSC as standard equipment on all their vehicles? Only recently has VSC has made a lot of press as being THE safety feature to have (b/c it allows you to actually avoid the accident). in 2003/2004 when scion's were first released... most people never even heard of VSC.

i think someone posted this a few days ago. anyways, i'm still glad the xB hold on and everyone is okay.
http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52901&highlight=tom

Sorry for the repost guys.

A while ago I saw a post with a pic of an xB with an internal roll-cage.
Anyone know where we can buy something like that?
:question:

I agree with Tom and Ray 100%. These cars should have side airbags. It was an unfortunate omission.

For some reason Japanese and American manufacturers think it's acceptable to leave out safety features based on the price of the car, or make them optional and I think that is bullsh*t. Toyota should have worked out a way to fit SAB in all these cars, it saves lives.

European cars typically don't pull this trick. Even the base model Volkswagen Jetta I bought a few years ago for $16k has side airbags and it didn't even have power windows!

I'd give up power windows for SAB, honestly. Maybe most people wouldn't but I don't mind rolling up the window, it's just one less thing to worry about. Power windows break eventually.

I don't think your assessment is quite fair there. Actually, I'm pretty sure there must be a technical/practical/engineering reason they left out side air bags. After all scion included side air bags as an option for both the xA and the tC. Which leads me to believe there is some factor preventing SABs from being an option on the xB.

Furthermore I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that current SABs actually affect passenger safety in any meaningful statistical way. AFAIK currently my insurance company doesn't even differentiate between having side air bags or just front air bags (though that may have some thing to do with state laws and regs).
A few years back there was some discussion that air-bags (including and noting SABs) in vehicles were poorly designed and may in fact cause injuries rather than prevent them. Personally, I'd be rather worried about an explosive force sitting around my arm set to go off in the event of a collision force of just <12 mph.

If Scion didn't care about safety.. then why did they bother including VSC as standard equipment on all their vehicles? Only recently has VSC has made a lot of press as being THE safety feature to have (b/c it allows you to actually avoid the accident). in 2003/2004 when scion's were first released... most people never even heard of VSC.
side airbags help a little..side curtains are soooooo much better

my insurance actually would have went up if i had side curtain airbags on my xA....wierd huh? i figure its because it costs a lot of money to replace side airbags.

Wow what a story. Now, how does the BOX hold up when it gets one of those huge sun roof deals in it???

I don't think your assessment is quite fair there. Actually, I'm pretty sure there must be a technical/practical/engineering reason they left out side air bags. After all scion included side air bags as an option for both the xA and the tC. Which leads me to believe there is some factor preventing SABs from being an option on the xB.

Furthermore I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that current SABs actually affect passenger safety in any meaningful statistical way. AFAIK currently my insurance company doesn't even differentiate between having side air bags or just front air bags (though that may have some thing to do with state laws and regs).
A few years back there was some discussion that air-bags (including and noting SABs) in vehicles were poorly designed and may in fact cause injuries rather than prevent them. Personally, I'd be rather worried about an explosive force sitting around my arm set to go off in the event of a collision force of just <12 mph.

If Scion didn't care about safety.. then why did they bother including VSC as standard equipment on all their vehicles? Only recently has VSC has made a lot of press as being THE safety feature to have (b/c it allows you to actually avoid the accident). in 2003/2004 when scion's were first released... most people never even heard of VSC.

VSC is cheap to implement, like the TRAC, it's part of the ABS system. Much more expensive to add SAB to a car that didn't already have them.

The reason they didn't is simple. Cost.

I appreciate them keeping an eye on the bottom line, and I accept not getting SAB on a car at this price. It's just a little disappointing, that's all.

As far as airbag injuries go, airbag injuries are typically a lot less severe than what would have occured without the airbag there.

What do you think is going to hurt you more? A side airbag? Or your head slamming into those nice big side windows totally unprotected?

Give it some thought.

VSC isn't going to protect you from a Tahoe running a red light and T-boning you, sorry.

I'm not slamming Toyota for not including them (again, $14,000 car) but lets not lie to ourselves and pretend the car is safer without them. There are tons of statistics demonstrating the safety of these devices, but you don't need to see studies to know that your skull does alot better hitting a gas-filled cushion than it does smashing into a freaking window. It's common sense.

I think the European car makers, VW in particular, deserve credit for not making safety features optional or class-exclusive. That's all I wanted to say. American and Japanese companies still make safety features optional. Side or side curtain air bags shouldn't be options. Either include them in all the trim levels, or be lame and don't offer them at all.

The bB was marketed in Japan in 1998. Meaning it was designed before 1998. As I recall, not a lot of cars, if any, even had SAB's as an option. Maybe Volvo but that's it. the bB was "redesigned" in the market in 2002. SAB's still not standard. The redesign was only cosmetic. The calls for SAB's started because of SUVs.

Basicly I'm trying to say is that our xB's are old. Don't blame Toyota. Blame the SUV loving consumers. The next model Scions will come with SABs as standard or a cheap option. If people feel unsafe about the xB or those SUVs, buy something else like a Volvo or an M1A2 tank. The Japan side impact test of the 2gen.bB/xB is testament that Toyota's engineers took into consideration side impact (4.5 out of 5 stars isnt bad).

http://www.nasva.go.jp/assess/html2002e/as115.html

Agreed. It is as safe as you could reasonably expect a small car designed 6+ years ago to be. Fair enough.

Check out my parallel post in:

Scion Life Forum Index -> Scion News & Press Releases

Accident: xB rolls; all OK
http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52901

RPM

A while ago I saw a post here somewhere of an xB with an aftermarket internal roll-cage.
Anyone know where we can buy something like that?
:question:

A while ago I saw a post here somewhere of an xB with an aftermarket internal roll-cage.
Anyone know where we can buy something like that?
:question:
Rallyxb: I'd recommend that you pose your question as a separate post. I think you will get a better response that way. :D RPM

A while ago I saw a post here somewhere of an xB with an aftermarket internal roll-cage.
Anyone know where we can buy something like that?
:question:

the one with the harness bars you mean? I never saw a full roll cage... I saw someone post a pic of one in another car...


Give it some thought.

I have actually, I do appreciate the fact that side impact bags would prevent severity of head injuries. However, there are drawbacks other than cost. Side air bags are inherently more sensitive in order for them to be effective. Which means that they can and will deploy in situations where they were not necessary. Air bags are inherently designed to prevent severity of injury... but not frequency of injury. Actually in most cases of air bag deployment... some sort of injury will be sustained, even in cases where no injury would not normally have been (which means higher frequency of injury).
"Safer" thereby is then subjective... while not quite this extreme, but which would you consider "safer", a system which breaks your arm on every impact, or a system which has a 1% chance of death on every impact?

My issue with SABs is not whether they work... its whether they're the best solution. And so far the US gov has agreed with me. While there is some push to get SABs standardized on every vehicle... one of the reasons it is not a federal regulation is b/c doing so would stifle an auto maker's options as to vehicle and safety feature design, railroading it into what I consider an imperfect compromise.

I also appreciate the fact that certain european car manufacturers do care a great deal about safety (most notably volvo). However I do object to the broad generalization of saying all euro car manufacturers are quite that way and asian/american cars are not. Not to pick on VW, cuz I do like them, but they've been having quite a few reliability problems of late... leading them to be ranked among the most unreliable just last year. Which to me IS a safety issue.

VSC is valuable to me b/c it puts control back into the driver's hands... Yes its not going to help me from getting T-boned by some idiot breaking the law... but it will give me a fighting chance of avoiding it (which, I'm sorry but... any careful attentive driver should be able to ... barring extreme circumstances/acts of God... and in that case... well maybe it was just your time). Isn't one of the first lessons you learn when dealing with roads is... "look both ways before you cross the street?"
Also getting hit by a truck... assuming driver's side impact - t-boned at something like 40 mph or so... I doubt any sort of side impact bags will protect you much from that.

Anyhow all i'm saying is it makes no sense to me to discount a car simply b/c it doesn't have the latest safety "feature". I mean have you seen what toyota charges for side air... or how much they cost to replace if they pop? I doubt its as simple as a cost issue. Its probably something more like... the A-pillar we have is extremely far away from us. which would make deployment from there ineffective and impractical. Having such features doesn't automatically make a car "safe" or "unsafe". That judgement should be reserved for looking at the design of something as a whole.

I finally found the pic of Glenn Mauer's OVERDOSE Scion Xb with a custom internal rollcage (aka: 6 point Safety Cage). Is there any other aftermarket place that makes these?

http://www.diald.com/dialD_Worthy/07_04Jul_DW/GlennMauer/Glenns_XB_02.jpg

. . . the A-pillar we have is extremely far away from us. which would make deployment from there ineffective and impractical. Having such features doesn't automatically make a car "safe" or "unsafe". That judgement should be reserved for looking at the design of something as a whole.

Well said and I agree.

I think the possibility of head trauma is greatly reduced because of our car's boxy shape.
Your head is very far from the A-pillar and window frame, as apposed to the sloped sides and roofline of almost every other car on the road.
Remember it's not the impact that kills you... but the sudden stop of your body smashing into the inside of the car.
Sometimes it's good to be square!
:D

I agree with both of you above.

Another side impact safety issue is shattering glass and resulting injury from glass shards. I have high quality window tint on my side windows and a tint band on the top of my windshield. I believe this tint provides some level of safety in a side impact collision.

Rallyxb? What's your "on the job" experience with this? Thanks. RPM

well, it seems to me (not being a critic...and happy everyone survived) that the only reason the box wasnt "cut in half" was b/c of all the safety equipment install on that thing. dont get me wrong, but the factory box isnt that safe (though it was ranked in C&D's list of top five 2005 safe cars), as it pertains to this particular accident, if the roll cage wasnt installed.

Wow. That was some crazy story.

The xB is not safe? Whaaaat?

The xB is safer than you could reasonably expect a 2400 lb car designed 6 years ago to be.

And I wouldn't discount it, or hesitate to recommend it as Tom and Ray have...

However, I don't think its necessary for us to make excuses for it and pretend its just as safe without side airbags or side-curtain airbags as it would be with them.

All the talk about distance to the A pillar and what-not is just dancing around the issue. Your head hitting anything other than an airbag = BAD.

Lets just be honest and stop making excuses. The car is very safe for such a small car. It would be safer with the airbags, but it's not expected in a car in this price range so you can't exactly call Toyota irresponsible for not retro-engineering them in.

well, it seems to me (not being a critic...and happy everyone survived) that the only reason the box wasnt "cut in half" was b/c of all the safety equipment install on that thing. dont get me wrong, but the factory box isnt that safe (though it was ranked in C&D's list of top five 2005 safe cars), as it pertains to this particular accident, if the roll cage wasnt installed.

I think the car in the accident was stock...
someone else is mentioning the internal roll cage thing...
otherwise how would the context of the article make sense if they had to install aftermarket safety equipment

I agree with both of you above.

Another side impact safety issue is shattering glass and resulting injury from glass shards. I have high quality window tint on my side windows and a tint band on the top of my windshield. I believe this tint provides some level of safety in a side impact collision.

Rallyxb? What's your "on the job" experience with this? Thanks. RPM

All car windows are made of safety glass that is designed to break up in to little square pieces so you end up with only minor surface lacerations (like paper cuts) instead major damage (like severed arteries) from a chunk of sheet glass (aka: home window glass) which cuts like a big knife.

Plastic window tint film on the inside of a car window will help to keep some of the small pieces from flying around as much, thereby reducing lacerations received to the head & neck as well as limiting the amount that can damage the cornea (eye).

The front window is laminated with a strong plastic film in-between a sandwich of glass that is supposed to prevent objects (people) from going through in a crash.

Hence reason to "Always wear your seat-belt!"

Thanks for your response to my question. I always wear my seatbelt and make sure all my passengers wear theirs.

... Plastic window tint film on the inside of a car window will help to keep some of the small pieces from flying around as much, thereby reducing lacerations received to the head & neck as well as limiting the amount that can damage the cornea (eye). ...
This is what I thought. In the event of an accident, I like the idea of less cuts to my passengers' and my head, face, neck and eyes. I'm glad I have plastic tint film.

Thanks again. RPM

...This is what I thought. In the event of an accident, I like the idea of less cuts to my passengers' and my head, face, neck and eyes. I'm glad I have plastic tint film. Thanks again. RPM

There are a few companys that make special, extra thick, safety window tint film for car windows and buildings. Here's one to give you an idea

"SAFETY & SECURITY window film"
The film is fitted to the inside of the car windows and will:
Deter smash and grab attacks
Stop attackers getting into the car
Reduce the chance of injuries from broken glass
http://www.solarsafetyshield.co.za/

you guys know it is actually a lot more dangerous to ride in a car with roll bar then without, especially without a helmet, bucketseats and 5 pt harness because it takes away from the crumble zone the car was designed with to help absorbe the intial shock from the impact.

you guys know it is actually a lot more dangerous to ride in a car with roll bar then without, especially without a helmet, bucketseats and 5 pt harness because it takes away from the crumble zone the car was designed with to help absorbe the intial shock from the impact.

:shock:
Good Point!

But... what about a Jeep Wrangler? They are designed with internal roll bars (when the hard-top is on) that are only covered by some thin foam padding. Are they considered safe?

As for crumple zones, the passenger compartment (or safety cage) of the car is NOT supposed to collapse. The crumple zones are built into the front & rear of the car to absorb impact energy in a crash...

"A car's crumple zones do the real work of softening the blow. Crumple zones are areas in the front and rear of a car that collapse relatively easily. Instead of the entire car coming to an abrupt stop when it hits an obstacle, it absorbs some of the impact force by flattening, like an empty soda can. The car's cabin is much sturdier, so it does not crumple around the passengers. It continues moving briefly, crushing the front of the car against the obstacle. Of course, crumple zones will only protect you if you move with the cab of the car -- that is, if you are secured to the seat by your seatbelt." Source: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/seatbelt2.htm

Also, I wonder if after market sub-frame connectors and a heavy steel strut tower bar will make the xB stronger and safer just by stiffening it up?
:question:

:pray: :silly: i hope i get that car. im new by the way

That's good to hear!! great job xB!!

My thoughts are with those friends of a fellow SLer who are in the hospital, hopefully they heal 100% and return to normal, painfree life.

.. was that roll cage one off or is that commercially available? Anybody?

hmmm.. somewhere(I haven't a clue as to where) I remember reading that a toyota engineer said that because of the way the(current) xB is constructed it was impossible to fit with side curtains or bags..however, from reading the above story, the box must be quite sturdy...
I have witnessed several "Median roll overs" where the vehicle had side curtains/air bags.. the occupants sustained severe injuries from the explosive force of the "safety features" much more so than if it had just side impact bars..
btw.. those side curtains have an explosive force (aimed downward) to deploy them..can break/crush shoulders & arms..
I would hate to just hit a pothole and have it deploy..
(I have seen this happen due to a South Dakota interstate construction zone speed bump..aka pavement transition lift)

If I thought that the xB was unsafe I wouldn't have bought 2
just my 1.5 cents worth

3.5+ million miler and still a rookie