I'm a part time inventor (as a hobby) and am wondering if anybody could help me out. . .

I want to know how engine lubrication works. . . basically, what keeps the cylinder walls and valves lubricated and how. Secondly, how is this accomplished without burning the oil? I know that two stroke engines have higher efficiency in terms of conservation of energy, but they burn oil (as it gets into the combustion chamber). But if oil gets into the valves and cylinder walls, some of that area encompasses the combustion chamber in a 4 stroke engine. How does that oil not get burnt?

Thanks!

It does get burnt. Read your Scion owner's manual, it explains how engine is lubricated and oil is burnt.

Oil does get burnt, but the piston rings keep most of it from getting into the area where combustion occurs at the top of the piston. This part of the reason oil turns dark after it's been used, the other parts just being heat and EGR.

I've read it. . . it doesn't go into good detail. . . And if oil is burnt, then how is it so different (in terms of conserving oil) than a two-stroke diesel? I was to understand that in a 4 stroke motor, the lubrication system is seperated from the combustion chamber, thereby reducing if not eliminating oil burning. Or is it just that VERY little is burned in the cams/valves?

I'm a part time inventor (as a hobby) and am wondering if anybody could help me out. . .

I want to know how engine lubrication works. . . basically, what keeps the cylinder walls and valves lubricated and how. Secondly, how is this accomplished without burning the oil? I know that two stroke engines have higher efficiency in terms of conservation of energy, but they burn oil (as it gets into the combustion chamber). But if oil gets into the valves and cylinder walls, some of that area encompasses the combustion chamber in a 4 stroke engine. How does that oil not get burnt?

Thanks!

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine.htm
http://science.howstuffworks.com/two-stroke.htm
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel.htm
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel-two-stroke.htm

Read them all. You should be able to make your own conclusions.

Oil does get burnt, but the piston rings keep most of it from getting into the area where combustion occurs at the top of the piston. This part of the reason oil turns dark after it's been used, the other parts just being heat and EGR.

Thanks! That makes sense! Let's see. . . that's the oil coming from underneath, how about the oil in cams, does that have some sort of seal? I know that oil is pumped up veins into the cams/valves. But for the pistons, the oil just drips back down into the crankcase. Is there some sort of collector up in the cams/valves, or does it all just crudely drip back down?

Is our engines wet sump or dry sump? Im assuming that it is wet sump

btw, what are you trying to invent

dry sump=no large oil pan and the oil is kept outside the engine in a large container with the oil pump driven by a pully

look at a nascar those are dry sump systems...

yeah. . . we have a wet sump. . .

I'm in the process of getting a patent. . .

If you ever seriously ridden a bicycle, you'd know the physics of it, and how it works like an engine. You push when the pedal reaches the top of the stroke. An engine works like this. Now if you've ever had a GOOD bike, it would have come with either clips or a strap that goes around your shoe. . . not for comfort, but for you to be able to maximize efficiency. Instead of just pushing, you can pull as well, on the upstroke. An engine has similar properties.

I'm trying to design an engine that uses an inline or V configuration (it might need the extra space to clear extra height), that has a combustion chamber at the top of the stroke, and below, with valves mounted on the cylinder wall, below the reach of the piston. There's more to it than that, but I have 90% of the logistics worked out. . . The only issue I've run into is lubrication, and the burning of oil. Secondly, there is a question of whether or not the engine will be able to tolerate the heat stresses (which can be fixed with higher quality components and/or reinforcement, forging, etc). Secondly is the physical stress on the camshaft I designed, although theoretically, I think I've worked that out.

I want to sell the design to someone who is willing to build a prototype. . . imagine a 4 cylinder engine with the capability (with a switch) to have the power of a V8, with much less weight than added cylinders, and the ability to switch it off (unlike turbos). It would have the same durability as a conventionally NA car, the same kind of power band, no turbos to service, and the ability to add forced induction on top of the technology. This also allows high performance engines to require less room in the engine bay. . . it's a win win. . . I'm not really open to a lot of critiques unless someone has knowlede of existing technology like this, as I really don't want to openly discuss the schematics.

Rotary is great. . . and probably more ideal, but the auto industry frowns upon changes in infrastructure, and if such a technology could be utilized without much retooling, and have the ability to use one engine design to develop 2 cylinder (4 with "DCS"), 3 cylinder (DCS 6), 4 cylinder (DCS 8), 5 cylinder (DCS 10), and 6 cylinder (DCS 12), it could lead to the most important element to manufacturers (and hence usefulness); profitability by minimizing costs.

i say start small like this person did :wink:

http://www.conleyprecision.com/

check out the viper v-10 a scale model of the 488 cid 8)

sorry for being slightly off topic there

it even takes a lot to do that amount of work. . . secondly, it would need to be comparable to output of existing engines. Thirdly, cramming a third and possibly fourth camshaft onto an already cramped engine is difficult enough. . . I'm having a tough time doing it on paper, but with a miniature, it'd be impossible. I need precision molds, forged metals, high strength metals, and a true cost/benefit ratio for an existing manufacturer. . . this is ideally a way to save cost to the manufacturer, while increasing output/efficiency to consumers. This is what matters in the end, to the business. I have very little doubts that this thing won't work. . . there are plenty of engine designs that work, like the wankel, two-stroke, etc. . . there is even an engine design someone based off an air pump from a Lexus (that is feasible and efficient). However, the problem is to find an engine design that manufacturers would actually WANT to use. . . that is the key. Something like DOHC (which is becoming an industry standard), and variable valve timing (which is headed towards that direction), ie VTEC, VVT-I, MIVEC, VANOS, etc etc. . . I see my design as a fast improvement in the efficient output of an engine. . . kinda like what VW did with the W engines, but being even more efficient, and making a 4 stroke produce output like a 2 stroke, but still retain a 4 stroke cycle (as to keep emissions low and minimize oil burn (although Diesel 2-strokes are quite good, and diesels in general).
Manufacturers don't like mass producing diesels. . . for their own reasons, although profitability is rising again in that market.

I'm a tech junkie, and it reduces my ability to perform. . . I'm further studying physics, calculus, mechanical engineering (all those on top of taking extensive college (UCD) classes in each), and trying to start a business in a Thailand. . . all which makes it very difficult for me to get my Economics degree (at CSUS, as I was booted from UCD, seems I can't really focus on anything, and I like to do work on my own projects, rather than repetitive homework assignments. I guess posting like a whore on SL doesn't help either. . . but I consider it stress relief.

I'm really hoping that one of my stupid stupid ideas will pay off big, and I work at them relentlessly. It's 5.30AM, and I am researching piston ring physical tolerance levels. . .

And I have a crapload of useless books in my room that will probably never be used! DAMNIT!

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine.htm
http://science.howstuffworks.com/two-stroke.htm
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel.htm
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel-two-stroke.htm

Read them all. You should be able to make your own conclusions.

Yeah, I read those a long long time ago. . . very useful stuff in general, but too general for my use. I have enough understanding of how an engine works, but they get into little detail regarding the specifics of how oil is transported, dispersed, and collected in different parts/areas of the engine. Thanks tho. . .
They only get into sumps, and "veins." I think I have enough info, and had my question answered, supplemented by other sources.

Oil does get burnt, but the piston rings keep most of it from getting into the area where combustion occurs at the top of the piston. This part of the reason oil turns dark after it's been used, the other parts just being heat and EGR.

Thanks! That makes sense! Let's see. . . that's the oil coming from underneath, how about the oil in cams, does that have some sort of seal? I know that oil is pumped up veins into the cams/valves. But for the pistons, the oil just drips back down into the crankcase. Is there some sort of collector up in the cams/valves, or does it all just crudely drip back down?


Well, the cams and the valve train components (springs etc) sit in the top of the head (on OHC engines like ours) so it's just the valve and valve stems go through. Compression helps keep oil from the cam dripping through the valves. I'm not an engineer though, so that is the best I can explain. Hope that is helpful.

That make s alot of sense as well, although I'd imagine that when the intake valves are open, there would be a vacuum, and compression would only occur when both valves are open. I've pretty much figured that the valve seals, piston rings, etc etc are the components that keep oil out, and thus the components that usually fail and lead to oil being burned, consumed, or thrown into the exhaust. It's amazing that those little things can keep oil out under such extreme pressure and heat. It makes sense that the natural compression and detonation help as well, as you brought up, which encompass 75% of the cycle.

how did the patent go on this? sorry for bring a buried topic back up

It's not a financially viable project. . . I'm a businessman first, and a science junkie second.

The fact of the matter is that combustion engines (and their production) are VERY financially efficient. Oil on the other hand. . .

But anyway, it doesn't make sense to really create a new type of motor/engine, as the sheer costs of retooling and redeveloping research is just astronimical. It truly embodies the idea of economies of scale.

don't they just sand cast the parts at the foundry anyways?

lol, great ideas squashed thanks to economics..

hey at least you know when to drop a project that wont be profitable..

lol, great ideas squashed thanks to economics..

hey at least you know when to drop a project that wont be profitable..

If only GM would realize that. . . all that invested money into a business that LOSES money everyday. . .

don't they just sand cast the parts at the foundry anyways?

You're getting at the point that the cost in production is low. . . yes.

But the cost of design, tooling, implementation, testing, etc etc is astronomical. Cars are cheap nowadays (adjusted for inflation), and we have economies of scale to thank. Just go to a third world country and see how many cars are zippin around. It's just not cost effective to reinvent the wheel (unless we're talkin about alternative fuels and such, which even then, the argument is still not conclusive).