http://superlumination.com/images/leds/7443_red.jpg

http://www.helixautomotive.com/images/scion/scionxb.jpg

I have these taillights and these red bulbs. Now, I had a problem gettin' these bulbs to work in my car. As a matter of fact, the lights burnt out the copper line on the "circuit board" that powers the lights. It also blew a couple 10amp fuses. Does anyone have a clue why? Or what I can do to get those LED bulbs to work with my car? Right now, I'm still using the red oem-style 7443 bulbs.

Thanks in advance!

this is the "circuit board"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Denstyr/100_0169Small.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Denstyr/100_0166Small.jpg

if it only happened on one side then it may just be a bad LED bulb, i had the same thing happen on my motorcycle last year.

But FYI, buy different LED bulbs. Get the one's where there are LEDs facing towards the side and backside of the bulb (sorry i can't find any pics right now) those bulbs will glow alot better than the one's you currently have.

it only happened on the one side, but I switched the bulbs around, I think. I can't remember. All I know is I was ____ed when I saw the smoke. The other side has a little burn mark, but nothing anywhere near as bad as the pic.

As a matter of fact, the lights burnt out the copper line on the "circuit board" that powers the lights. It also blew a couple 10amp fuses.

Sounds like you've got a short somewhere in your system. Replacing the bulbs would most likely just lead to more burnt bulbs, melted wires, and blown fuses. You need to find the short and fix it before replacing the bulbs and fuse, and replacing the wires.

If you blew a 10A fuse, you know something is pulling some serious current... Add to that the melted wires as proof. :wink:

Be careful, and good luck in fixing it! :)

yea, but I don't know where it's coming from. The regular bulbs work just fine. and from what I understand the LED's are supposed to draw LESS power than the regular bulbs.

LEDs are generally low current/low power,so this is strange...

You might have a wire that has rubbed some of its insulation off and is shorting the bare wire against a metal place in the xB... This happens frequently when wires are run through a hole drilled in the firewall (for accessory lights, stereo power and ground wires, etc.), so it's not unheard of. I'd suggest inspecting all of the wiring that you installed with the LED lights (especially anything running from the light switch and/or fusebox to the lights.). :)

It looks like it is a turn signal light. I think I read that you need to get some kind of resister or gadget for turn signal lights. I could be wrong. Check out www.superbrightleds.com They sell these lights and there are a couple of links that explain how to install them.

Fetthunter~I didn't wire anything though. It was just plug and play, ya know?! I took out stock bulbs and replaced with LED bulbs, that's it! I touched nothing else. The stock bulbs work fine, but the LED's burn stuff up. That's what gets me.

JArocho~ They're just brake/tail lights. I have heard that if you use LED's for blinker you need something to even out the power b/c the LED blinker bulbs will blink really fast.

Dennis
what brand are they. if their CATZ then there no good. they kept blowing out my fuses. try www.autolumination.com i had them in mine for a good 4/5 months no problems

I don't know the brand it came shipped with 2 bulbs in a USPS box

bump! I need help!

whatever caused the bulb to make that scorching mark (loose contact or dirt/oil) will cause arcing.
the arcing will draw more current and pop the fuse.
get a new bulb, clean the scorching marks and check the fitting is tight.

could try contact grease to get a better contact and avoid the scorching,.

i had the exact same problem. One circuit of the LED bulbs has a different polarity than the car. So it will work fine for the brakes, and blow the fuse when u hit the turnsignal. I soldered wires onto my LED bulbs and connected them to the wiring harness in the car. Worked fine, but still really weak. I didnt want to get rear ended, so i switched back to tyc's.

maybe thats why the person sold them...did the same thing to their car....so they dumped 'em

Could also be a bad or missing resistor in the bulb itself. That would cause all of the above because the LED's by themselves provide such little resistance it's like having just a straight wire, hence the resistors used inline with them. I'd get a refund for the bulbs and buy some some where else, and ditto on the bulbs that have side and back firing LED's.

OK, so it's more than likely the bulbs, right? That's what I'm understanding from all this. It sux b/c I can't use that "circuit board" at all! I had to use the one from stock tails. I don't wanna risk another "board" only to have it burn on me again, you know?!

the car is constantly positive and uses ground as "on" that may be a problem

I have the clear version of those lenses. I chucked the included bulbs & went to 18 LED tail/stop bulbs. (12 out the back & 6 to the side, $30 each) Still couldn't see the stop lights, so..... I added (2) 24 LED strips at the bottom of the hatch glass inside on either side of the wiper ($25 each at AutoZone). NOW, you can see the stop lights. I damn near got rear ended a herd of times before I added the strip LED stoplights.

Oh yeah, you either got a short or a bad back of lens circuit board, and I'd bet the circuit board is bad.

Good luck!!!

the circuit board is bad NOW! It wasn't before I installed those lights.

best of luck to you den!
ditch those bulbs, get something better
like others said, try www.autolumination.com
i ordered some bulbs from there and they're great.
if ya wanna sell your stock tails, let me know
i'll give ya $20 and a cookie :lol:

my stock tails are worthless. One is broken and both have no "circuit boards".

get in touch with Chris....he has two new tails...

from the looks of the pic. I think the circuit board could be revived if thats what your conncerned about.

the nature of LEDs is different from "bulbs"

bulbs fail by -open circuiting (filament breaks0

LEDs fail by -short circuiting- (dead short!)

That's what happened here. Why? infant mortality.. or bad design.. OVER voltage shortens LED life... just like incandescent bulbs.

LEDs are funny animals. We need not get too deep into the science behind them. But they are -the future- and they do last very well if not pushed to hard.

Just remember: when an LED fails it fails by DEAD SHORT and will quickly take out all the other LEDs which are -wired in series with it- There are probably three or four LEDS in that cluster which are now ruined. Can be fixed but you'd want to ge exact, exact! replacements or the fix may look unmatched.

good luck

the nature of LEDs is different from "bulbs"

bulbs fail by -open circuiting (filament breaks0

LEDs fail by -short circuiting- (dead short!)

That's what happened here. Why? infant mortality.. or bad design.. OVER voltage shortens LED life... just like incandescent bulbs.

LEDs are funny animals. We need not get too deep into the science behind them. But they are -the future- and they do last very well if not pushed to hard.

Just remember: when an LED fails it fails by DEAD SHORT and will quickly take out all the other LEDs which are -wired in series with it- There are probably three or four LEDS in that cluster which are now ruined. Can be fixed but you'd want to ge exact, exact! replacements or the fix may look unmatched.

good luck

the nature of LEDs is different from "bulbs"

bulbs fail by -open circuiting- (filament breaks)

LEDs fail by -short circuiting- (dead short!)

That's what happened here. Why? perhaps "infant mortality".. or bad design.. OVER voltage shortens LED life... just as overvoltage kills incandescent bulbs sooner or later.

LEDs are funny animals. We need not get too deep into the science behind them. But they are -the future- and they do last very well if not pushed to hard.

Just remember: when an LED fails it fails by DEAD SHORT and will quickly take out all the other LEDs which are -wired in series with it- There are probably three or four LEDS in that cluster which are now ruined. Can be fixed but you'd want to get exact, exact! replacements or the fix may look unmatched.

here's a page that helps us understand LEDs a little bit better.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/led.htm
I've not read it yet, but it looks like -good basic information-

That's what happened here. Why? perhaps "infant mortality".. or bad design.. OVER voltage shortens LED life... just as overvoltage kills incandescent bulbs sooner or later.

Just remember: when an LED fails it fails by DEAD SHORT and will quickly take out all the other LEDs which are -wired in series with it- There are probably three or four LEDS in that cluster which are now ruined. Can be fixed but you'd want to get exact, exact! replacements or the fix may look unmatched.
-

The LED's still work fine though! And it was running on a 10A fuse. That's the stock fuse. AFTER it blew that fuse, I tried a 15. And it still blew. So again, I dunno...

Just signing up for thread.

ahhh... curious as to what the outcome might be, are ya?!

That's what happened here. Why? perhaps "infant mortality".. or bad design.. OVER voltage shortens LED life... just as overvoltage kills incandescent bulbs sooner or later.

Just remember: when an LED fails it fails by DEAD SHORT and will quickly take out all the other LEDs which are -wired in series with it- There are probably three or four LEDS in that cluster which are now ruined. Can be fixed but you'd want to get exact, exact! replacements or the fix may look unmatched.
-

The LED's still work fine though! And it was running on a 10A fuse. That's the stock fuse. AFTER it blew that fuse, I tried a 15. And it still blew. So again, I dunno...


I dunno either. Something does not compute. An LED array in general draws but a fraction of the -current- that a filamentary light bulb needs. And a tail light bulb never taxes a ten amp fuse!

your "circuit board" proves there was a large rush of current. Current is flow.. it creates HEAT in conductors too small for the load. This is how/why fuses "fuse" (open up the circuit like an OFF switch. OK... Don't be putting a 15 amp fuse in a circuit with 10 amp-capacity wiring. That's not wise.

Get rid of that array and put in a new one if at all possible, is my dunno-what-else-to-say advice.

haha, I appreciate it. I did take out that fuse. I just thought maybe for some reason the fuse wasn't getting enough power. I was just trying to see if it would work or not.

Like I said before, do you think another set of LED's will burn up the "boards" I have now? B/c I don't have any others and will be screwed if they burn up.

...I did take out that fuse. I just thought maybe for some reason the fuse wasn't getting enough power.

Not sure I follow you there. Let me sidebar on fuses, please:

fuses do not "get power". A fuse is a safety device, as you know. It's got more -resistance- to it than does the wiring circuit. Resistance plus current -flow- make -heat-. The fuse is gonna burn out by intent before the wiring insulation burns up and makes the car a bonfire.


"FUSE" means "melt" in metalurgical terms.

The Helix "circuit board" is just printed wiring: copper foil very thin and of high resistance to high current. Hence, your LED cluster shorted, passed huge current which fused the printed board AND blew the ten amp fuse.

A safety fuse may be as simple as just a single strand of copper wire, in a circuit where the wire proper is seven strands. In fact this is just how early Buss-type fuses were made and repaired: hook in a new inch-long piece of fine copper wire.




I was just trying to see if it would work or not.

Yes, but you did not then know your basic electricity. Now you do! :P and you know that if blue smoke appears in two places, and one of those places is the safety fuse, then the -real cause must be in the other place (your LED cluster)

Like I said before, do you think another set of LED's will burn up the "boards" I have now? B/c I don't have any others and will be screwed if they burn up.

Now that I look and understand better what your doing, please confirm if I got this straight: These "Helix" taillamp assemblies standardly employ conventional light bulbs. Yes????

OK, and you got cheapo Chinese LED-replacement modules for filamentary light bulb circuits. Yes??? And these things are -crap- because, as I said earlier, when an LED goes south, it becomes a dead short.

Look at your LED cluster again. This is an equivalent for a single filabment tailamp bulb. The two-only terminals tell me so:

http://img53.echo.cx/img53/3736/7443red3pb.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

SO! The makers could have built-in a tiny fuse to that cluster. The "Picofuse" being on the order of one amp, or really much less. -That fuse- if present, would've saved yoru Helix mounting board from frying and -prevents more than one bulb in the tailamp circuit from becoming dark when an LED fails. As it stand, your losing one cluster blows a main fuse. HERE then is another reason why such things should be locally fused. Locally meaning, in the device itself: a one-shot, not-replaceable fuse.

The -cluster that popped your fuse-.. you say that still opeates just fine as before? That's hard to understand... it's shorted. Toss it out. Don't trust the other clusters not to fry at any future time. IF they do, you'll fry that board again -unless- your Scion fuses may be -downsized to, say, 2amp or about that (I am -guessing.)

-whether that's even possible, to downsize the Scion 10A fuse to 5A or 2A, depends on what else in the way of current-draw is -fuse protected- by that 10 amp circuit..

Bottom line: Run bulbs for now until you can get LED clusters of known-good quality and preferably internally fused if you value your Helix mounting board (you do!)

The makers of these LED clusters did not know or care that you might put them it to a copper foil mounting system. They designed on the cheap, without internal protection, presuming that your socket is hard wired. It is not.

oh well. :yawn:

...I did take out that fuse. I just thought maybe for some reason the fuse wasn't getting enough power.

I meant giving. Sorry about that.

The Helix "circuit board" is just printed wiring: copper foil very thin and of high resistance to high current. Hence, your LED cluster shorted, passed huge current which fused the printed board AND blew the ten amp fuse.

All of the xB circuit boards for tail lights are printed wiring. This is pretty much the same thing, just different looking from the outside.

Now that I look and understand better what your doing, please confirm if I got this straight: These "Helix" taillamp assemblies standardly employ conventional light bulbs. Yes????

Yes, just like stock!

OK, and you got cheapo Chinese LED-replacement modules for filamentary light bulb circuits. Yes??? And these things are -crap- because, as I said earlier, when an LED goes south, it becomes a dead short.

Yes, as I did not know there was a difference at the time. Had I known, I would've spent the almost $20 a bulb!

SO! The makers could have built-in a tiny fuse to that cluster. The "Picofuse" being on the order of one amp, or really much less. -That fuse- if present, would've saved yoru Helix mounting board from frying and -prevents more than one bulb in the tailamp circuit from becoming dark when an LED fails. As it stand, your losing one cluster blows a main fuse. HERE then is another reason why such things should be locally fused. Locally meaning, in the device itself: a one-shot, not-replaceable fuse.

So, if I bought a more reputable brand, it would have that "Picofuse", more than likely, right?

The -cluster that popped your fuse-.. you say that still opeates just fine as before? That's hard to understand... it's shorted. Toss it out. Don't trust the other clusters not to fry at any future time. IF they do, you'll fry that board again -unless- your Scion fuses may be -downsized to, say, 2amp or about that (I am -guessing.)

OK, to come to think of it, it may not work just fine after all. But it seemed like it did. So, you're probably right and the cluster is bad. It's already in the garbage!

Bottom line: Run bulbs for now until you can get LED clusters of known-good quality and preferably internally fused if you value your Helix mounting board (you do!)

You're absolutely right, I value it b/c it's the only one I have left. lol

The makers of these LED clusters did not know or care that you might put them it to a copper foil mounting system. They designed on the cheap, without internal protection, presuming that your socket is hard wired. It is not.

oh well. :yawn:

Once again, you're right!

I really do appreciate you taking the time to, pretty much, break it all down to me, and the others who were interested.

Is it safe for me to buy a well-known brand of LED clusters to run in my car as long as they are "internally fused"? And how would I be able to tell if they are or not?

Ah, thanks back to you for going point-by-point to my inputs. I don't know squat about Scion electrics as yet.

Yah, that the stock scion lamp boards are printed is OK, because you see now that light -bulbs- never short and so, can't ever fuse the printed circuit/mounting board.

how to know whether an aftermarket LED array is internally fused? I dunno, except by intentionally frying one by over-voltage. Increase the voltage gradually until the LEDs burn out. Have a five amp or so fuse in the test circuit. The unit should fail, the 5M fuse should NOT blow, and the dead unit should read on a VOM -infinite resistance- meaing open circuit

You could also contact the distributor or maker of the devices and ask whether it has internal protection. You've probably saved a bunch of readers from frying even their standard Scion boards by bringing out the cause of the grief.

good day, friend

Yea, I hope so. That's was the second reason I asked. The first was for myself, I know, I'm selfish! lol Seriously though, thanks alot for all your input! I/we appreciate it!

Did anyone find the reason the fuse kept blowing, I just bought a set and the same thing is happening to me, the blow when I put the brakes on.

This may or may not be the problem It looks to me the bulb will plug in either direction,On a LED you will get light in one direction and in the other you get a short "well kind of" a LED is a Diode it is designed to let voltage flow one direction.
Try hooking it up to a 9 volt battery it should light in one direction only,when you find out which is positive on the bulb mark it then take a voltage meter to the socket to find which way you need to plug the bulb in.

Hope this makes sense,Scott