My reply here cause the site admin wants it here:

Show me 10 cars with log style manifolds running 10's.

Show me 10 cars with log style manifolds running 11's.

Show me 10 cars with log style manifolds running 12's.

See the point?

You have stated that dyno data would be forth coming to show a turbo header makes power. I have yet to see it, were is it?

I have stated that I’ve been into turbo performance for years and have many buds junk their OEM or aftermarket logs for turbo headers and NONE have seen any worth while performance for the $1000 it cost on their street cars.

I’ve already admitted time and again I have no clue to building high boost ¼ mile drag cars.


10 second cars with log? Dexter Lum’s 1.8 liter 8V Rabbit was running a log in the 80s.

11 second cars: Robert from forced performance is in the low 11s with his DSM and I’ve seen many many many many 11 second DSM NONE with a header.

http://linux.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=FP&Category_Code=DSM

12 second cars with standard manifold? EVO, every base kit: Drag, HKS, FMax / Turbonetics, DSM, Euro cars with aftermarket turbo like Dinnan, SRT, 1.8T VW,

Where have you been over the last 20 years? Do you even go down to the tracks? You sound like a magazine racer. Do you honestly believe that a 4 to 1 equalenght header is needed or used by the Joe Average. Last time I was at the tracks there was one Honda racer towed in that had a turbo header, out of the say 100 cars there I did not see a single other car with a 4 to 1 and there were a few 11 second 4 bangers and a whole gaggle of 12 second guys.

See my point, you better lay off the magazines and actual go down to the ¼ mile and look for street driven turbo cars running 4 to 1 headers. Of course on most Honda setups that would mean tossing off the A/C too, which would no longer make it a “car” to most people. See my point?




You want an equal length or tubular, why? If all you want is 12+, it's fine. Backpressure won't become a huge issue at 10psi. You go for 20, you're getting into iffy territory.

There will also be spool differences going from a log to a tubular/equal length. On your 16g's, it probably won't be noticeable since you're making 5psi at idle ;)

KungPao, are you kidding? Are you saying you're never going to take your car out and rip it? Please, don't kid yourself.

Gee ZPI stage 1 with log is making 340 WHP, I think that will allow enough “ripping” for most people. It is doing it with 10 PSI and by your own admission it is NOT a huge issue. Neither is spool due to the sizing of the turbo.

So it comes out what would you be getting for $1000 ea turbo header? Um the loss of an A/c for most applications... and a bling factor.

I await on baited breath your dyno showing a street setup picking up a whole bunch of power by switching to a turbo header as you promised.... :lalala: :lalala: :tap:

Pwned!!!!!!!! The best part is, Oldman was't even being an ___ about it, he was just calling the guy out :P

:lol: BURN!! Best post ever!

lol yeah oldman..lol :rofl: :rofl: turbo2liter is going around missinforming and trolling.

I'd like to see these dynos aswell.

there are a million ways to skin a cat...

"A turbo manifold is just like your stock exhaust manifold except for that it directs air into
the turbo to drive the exhaust wheel instead of leading straight out to the exhaust system.
After going through the turbo, the downpipe is what connects the turbo to the rest of the
exhaust. The design of this is critical. There are log style turbo manifolds, cast, and
tubular style. Tubular equal length manifolds make the most horsepower, with longer
runners and an equal length design. They are designed to where exhaust pulses do not
interfere with each other. Faster spool up and strong top end power are charactoristic of
this style. However, they are typically more expensive, require more bracing to prevent any
cracking. They also take up more space and are more difficult to design."



... to quote a "magazine"

but there's no pudding so no proof!

You pointed out 1 car in the 10's running a log style manifold.

You pointed out 1 car plus his customers in the 11's on a log style manifold.

You pointed out MANY 12 second cars with log manifolds.

Looks to me like the fast cars are running non-log manifolds, eh? Don't be so quick to laugh as if he's disproven my point. In fact, he just proved my point.

You talk about "street application" as if there is a difference between there and at the track. There is no difference, it's all about power and spool with a turbo manifold. Whether you are on the track or the street, your manifold is going to perform the same. For a 300-400whp application like you Scion guys are doing, there is no problem with a log style. I never said there was. Would you see gains going to a tubular or equal length? Hell yes. Hopefully ZPI will get one of their manifolds out so you guy can test it.

Like I said, I don't really care how a log manifold performs. The only dyno testing I've seen lately is a tubular equal length versus a tubular equal length 2/2 divided manifold mated to a divided t4 housing. The divided manifold showed SUBSTANTIAL spool and power gains. Dyno proven. I can't post the dyno's from the manifold testing, but I can tell you they were performed by AMS. Feel free to call Martin and talk with him about it.

When you speak of a "street setup," do you mean that to be on the street a car can only make a certain amount of power? This is the only scenario I can infer, because a tubular manifold is going to perform better, the question is where is the threshold to pay the extra buck.

i would imagine the decrease of backpressure would increase the hp and life of the turbo (tubular over log style). it only makes sense. but i haven't seen any head to head comparisons of it.

not even sure if the equal length would matter as long as the diameter of the piping is big enough to collect the gases without increasing backpressure.

but then again. i haven't seen any head to head comparisons of it.

You pointed out 1 car in the 10's running a log style manifold.

You pointed out 1 car plus his customers in the 11's on a log style manifold.

You pointed out MANY 12 second cars with log manifolds.

Looks to me like the fast cars are running non-log manifolds, eh? Don't be so quick to laugh as if he's disproven my point. In fact, he just proved my point.

You talk about "street application" as if there is a difference between there and at the track. There is no difference, it's all about power and spool with a turbo manifold. Whether you are on the track or the street, your manifold is going to perform the same. For a 300-400whp application like you Scion guys are doing, there is no problem with a log style. I never said there was. Would you see gains going to a tubular or equal length? Hell yes. Hopefully ZPI will get one of their manifolds out so you guy can test it.

Like I said, I don't really care how a log manifold performs. The only dyno testing I've seen lately is a tubular equal length versus a tubular equal length 2/2 divided manifold mated to a divided t4 housing. The divided manifold showed SUBSTANTIAL spool and power gains. Dyno proven. I can't post the dyno's from the manifold testing, but I can tell you they were performed by AMS. Feel free to call Martin and talk with him about it.

When you speak of a "street setup," do you mean that to be on the street a car can only make a certain amount of power? This is the only scenario I can infer, because a tubular manifold is going to perform better, the question is where is the threshold to pay the extra buck.

Dude, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.. believe me I tried, it doesn't work.

turbo2liter wrote
You pointed out 1 car in the 10's running a log style manifold.

You pointed out 1 car plus his customers in the 11's on a log style manifold.

You pointed out MANY 12 second cars with log manifolds.


Looks to me like the fast cars are running non-log manifolds, eh? Don't be so quick to laugh as if he's disproven my point. In fact, he just proved my point.

At least I found some, did you find any dyno run to prove your point? You know the dyno run you promised was forthcoming? :tap: :lalala: :tap:


turbo2liter wrote
You talk about "street application" as if there is a difference between there and at the track. There is no difference, it's all about power and spool with a turbo manifold. Whether you are on the track or the street, your manifold is going to perform the same.

Really? I don’t know the last time I pump 105 octane and had the wastegate set to 20 PSI of boost to drive down to my grocery store to pick up a 6 pack, coming off every stop sign at 6000 RPM feathering the clutch just hoping the turbo will spool before Christmas, and sans A/C cause it don’t fit my equal length turbo header. Did I mention no air clearer or exhaust? Yeah that to. :doh:

Now on a street car, I kind of want some low speed spool so I can see some boost at say 2000 RPM and be at full torque at highway RPM or about 3000 RPM. I want an A/C and I’d like an air cleaner and exhaust. Also Ya know I like the turbo setup to work on pump gas. Lastly I hope the manifold cost less then the $1000 and can take snow, rain, and a few thousand heat cycles, also I hope that it does not get so hot to peal that paint off my hood.

But I can see where you are coming from there is “no difference” I just wonder why cars like the SRT just don’t come out with the race setup…. NOT.


turbo2liter wrote For a 300-400whp application like you Scion guys are doing, there is no problem with a log style. I never said there was. Would you see gains going to a tubular or equal length? Hell yes. Hopefully ZPI will get one of their manifolds out so you guy can test it.

Um dude I don’t know what Scion turbo you are getting but mine I hope to get 240 WHP… FYI ZPI stage 2 HAS a turbo header. Will I see gains on my 6.5 PSI for $1000 that turbo header will cost? I think not, but you were going to show a street car dyno that proves just that. :tap: :tap: Yet I’m still waiting and the only thing you can say is if I was running 300 to 400 WHP I would see some gain, gee and if I purchased for $1000 more a ZPI stage 1 I’d see about 100 WHP MORE so how much WHP would I see from this $1000 turbo header? Yeah, like I thought bout the most expensive HP this side of Ferrari.

turbo2liter wrote Like I said, I don't really care how a log manifold performs. The only dyno testing I've seen lately is a tubular equal length versus a tubular equal length 2/2 divided manifold mated to a divided t4 housing. The divided manifold showed SUBSTANTIAL spool and power gains. Dyno proven. I can't post the dyno's from the manifold testing, but I can tell you they were performed by AMS. Feel free to call Martin and talk with him about it.

Sure sounds like a race setup to me, but I digress as you don’t see any difference between a race car and a street car.


turbo2liter wrote
When you speak of a "street setup," do you mean that to be on the street a car can only make a certain amount of power? This is the only scenario I can infer, because a tubular manifold is going to perform better, the question is where is the threshold to pay the extra buck.

Why do you think a street car can spin up a race car turbo, do you think 92 octane and work traffic or lugging up hills can take the same boost pressure as a light weight large gear, dry iced intercooler race car? Do you think that a 2000 heat cycle drive in rain while red hot, drive in snow turbo manifold is the same as a ¼ mile at a time cool down fair weather no water, 100 heat cycle race turbo header?

Oh I know where the threshold for my extra $1000.00 and the ability to keep my A/C would be to upgrade to a stage 1 kit, maybe you should spend all your money in actually buying a scion before further comment?:silly:

Not to kill the owning of mr. turbo2liter, aka colin, but here is a test for a honda.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=925312
This was a 250whp car with a log manifold that then gained 68whp untuned when they used the same tune, downpipe and turbo with the tubular manifold. The log manifold spools 300rpms faster, but once the engine starts breathing, the tubular instantly has the advantage.

Next example is on an SR20DET by Nissan:

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1056249

they went from a log manifold to a full-race tubular manifold picking up 60whp. So 300 to 360 still at 13psi of boost.

you can say all you want that there is no difference. I know cars running 11s with stock 'log' manifolds(drag3 manifold), but i know people with cast manifolds with long runners running 10s (inlinepro.com).

But the links I posted do clearly show if the engine has teh ability to breath better up top(ie this is where a honda engine comes to life) a properly designed turbo tubular manifold is key.

-Sean

Tubular manifold all the way........

good examples. a gain of 20% at 13 psi on that nissan.

impressive. with half the boost (6.5) you could possibly gain 10% power

yeh a vendor gee go figure, and they forgot to tell you that the A/C fell off at the same time.... Last time I checked my Camry cam tC died well before 8200 RPM vs the VTEC engine. You should refer to the initial post were I said "stock camry cam engine". But I'll keep this in mind if I sel my Scion and buy a Honda and want to drive around Texas with no A/C OK :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: You can check the dyno graph and see just below 5000 RPM there is NO power difference at all. Lastly I would suspect other issues for a turbo GS-R at 10 PSI that started off at 250 crank HP don't you :doh:


http://www.revhard.com/turbokit/integraturbokit.asp?year=9401&model=GSR

As we all can see Revhard with a cast log says 290 BHP 7 PSI. So don't know when you sand bag the first number to show how good the second number really is. :doh: Rest assured the dynopack dyno above reads higher then a dynojet and if you look on the left this is SAE crank HP or BHP which means actual non-corrected wheel HP was about 220 WHP if it was from a dynoject as measured. Now come surely we all know a 10 PSI turbo GS-R puts out more then 220 WHP…

Lets look at a REAL log manifold not a cast log, that would be FMAX and at 8 to 9 PSI it puts out 245 WHP or 270 to 280 BHP, it is completely believable that this log will put out 290+ BHP with 10 PSI of boost.

http://www.turbo-kits.com/b18ci_gsr_vtec_dyno.html


The only laughable thing about the whole post is the way Honda guys just eat up vendor post, and now by roasting your paint off the hood, and tossing out you’re a/c you can gain 50 crank HP with our setup as we are selling you a 4 to 1 turbo header, or you can go to Rev or Turbonetics and get a log, keep you paint, keep your a/c and and put out the same HP…. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

OK on to the Nissan test. Gee 13 PSI which is only 30% more PSI then my upto 10 PSI and double the PSI of my stage 0 kit. :doh:

Gee BIG cams, well if you read the post the smaller cams actually made more HP on the log:
agreed!! with stock cams on the SR (240 duration 9.2mm lift) the log manifold performs slightly better than it did in this test :doh: :doh:

Don't know how well my Camry cams will take to the turbo header as a check of the dyno once again shows NO difference upto 4200 RPM, where I happen to spend 99.999% of the time in. :tap: :tap: :tap:

Oh and lets see HUGE turbo, downpipe probably run open for the test and the engine built for 500 WHP, just a little over my tC’s anticipated 240 WHP, Eh? and with all that we get 340 WHP at 10 PSI, just what the ZPI tC does capped up with Camry like near stock exhaust and a log manifold, stock cams, etc. IMO maybe these guys trying to build a 500 WHP race car and “scratching” their collective heads would give ZPI a call to get straightened out. I would even have bother to dyno a log manifold with their build, much less wonder why my 500 WHP build is putting out 300 WHP at 13 PSI. I wonder what their customer thinks after forking over $$$$ for a 500 WHP build and getting a 340 WHP car but yeh it has a fancy exhaust manifold. Wonders never cease.

I don't what else we can all learn from a 500 WHP build that now is stuck at 360 WHP, besides don't go to that vendor for an engine and turbo setup. :relief:


Oh and the AGP log that I posted here is a dyno:

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1999890#post1999890

418 WHP not bad for a LOG

and 400 WHP by 5400 RPM and where um the big cam Nissan with turbo header make 400 WHP? Nowhere and where did it make 360 WHP at 7500 RPM :rofl: :rofl:

How long does the log last?

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1961548#post1961548


Now the ZPI kit here:
http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=68009&start=25

Yep 340 WHP from 5000 RPM to 6200 RPM with a LOG . :doh:



Yep logs suck, when you gotta race against them... :rofl:

This is a pretty informitive post. gj to all partys involved

Old man you obviously have some misconceptions when it comes to turbo vehicles. I'm not familiar with your internals, but it's commonplace to run 16-18psi on 9:1 internals on 93 pump gas. Retard the timing a few degrees and you could run this on 91.

I sent you a PM Old man re: dyno sheets. Thanks for posting some up Sean.

Really? I don’t know the last time I pump 105 octane and had the wastegate set to 20 PSI of boost to drive down to my grocery store to pick up a 6 pack, coming off every stop sign at 6000 RPM feathering the clutch just hoping the turbo will spool before Christmas, and sans A/C cause it don’t fit my equal length turbo header. Did I mention no air clearer or exhaust? Yeah that to. Doh!

Why would you launch off every stoplight? You can design a header to fit around a/c, it might not be exactly equal length, but anything tubular is better as proven above. Place the turbo a bit lower and modify the downpipe to fit. Running a large turbo has nothing to do with a street or race car, it's for what power you are looking for. You can run cats on any car, and have a minimal affect on performance.

Now on a street car, I kind of want some low speed spool so I can see some boost at say 2000 RPM and be at full torque at highway RPM or about 3000 RPM. I want an A/C and I’d like an air cleaner and exhaust. Also Ya know I like the turbo setup to work on pump gas. Lastly I hope the manifold cost less then the $1000 and can take snow, rain, and a few thousand heat cycles, also I hope that it does not get so hot to peal that paint off my hood.

I see 5-6psi at 3000 rpm on my setup. Everyone jokes about hot underhood temps, yet none of us DSM guys have paint "peeling" off our hoods.. not that our paint is inherently good to begin with though. A little lining of heat wrap will fix anything, and look good too. If you are worried about your manifold cracking, maybe you should consider who's building it for you. Mine comes with a lifetime warranty against any defect, does yours? Also, you should be taking the proper safegaurds with your turbo car. This includes letting it warm up, and especially, cooling down, before turning off. Oil changes every 3000 miles if you appreciate your turbo's bearings.

The only laughable thing about the whole post is the way Honda guys just eat up vendor post

I find this line VERY ironic, considering there have been no customer's independently dyno their cars, and you are already claiming how much power you're going to make. Are you even at the same altitude as Louisville? Do you have any idea how much difference that makes for tuning, ESPECIALLY a MAF setup?

I wonder what their customer thinks after forking over $$$$ for a 500 WHP build and getting a 340 WHP car but yeh it has a fancy exhaust manifold. Did you read at all about the specs on this car? You talk as if because you get a large turbo, you are planning to make 500whp. Many people buy larger than what they need in case they want to expand. Maybe he only had enough injector for 350whp ;)

*yawn* Tubular manifolds 9/10 times decrease ramp time for turbochargers, and help with upper rpm flow as well. So if you get the exhaust pulses to the turbine wheel without disruption in the smoothest flow possible it's only beneficial. A tubular manifold if built correctly will outshine a log style in everyway, performance, durability, and looks. Seems like a win to me.

yeh a vendor gee go figure, and they forgot to tell you that the A/C fell off at the same time.... Last time I checked my Camry cam tC died well before 8200 RPM vs the VTEC engine. You should refer to the initial post were I said "stock camry cam engine". But I'll keep this in mind if I sel my Scion and buy a Honda and want to drive around Texas with no A/C OK :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: You can check the dyno graph and see just below 5000 RPM there is NO power difference at all. Lastly I would suspect other issues for a turbo GS-R at 10 PSI that started off at 250 crank HP don't you :doh:


http://www.revhard.com/turbokit/integraturbokit.asp?year=9401&model=GSR

As we all can see Revhard with a cast log says 290 BHP 7 PSI. So don't know when you sand bag the first number to show how good the second number really is. :doh: Rest assured the dynopack dyno above reads higher then a dynojet and if you look on the left this is SAE crank HP or BHP which means actual non-corrected wheel HP was about 220 WHP if it was from a dynoject as measured. Now come surely we all know a 10 PSI turbo GS-R puts out more then 220 WHP…

Lets look at a REAL log manifold not a cast log, that would be FMAX and at 8 to 9 PSI it puts out 245 WHP or 270 to 280 BHP, it is completely believable that this log will put out 290+ BHP with 10 PSI of boost.

http://www.turbo-kits.com/b18ci_gsr_vtec_dyno.html


The only laughable thing about the whole post is the way Honda guys just eat up vendor post, and now by roasting your paint off the hood, and tossing out you’re a/c you can gain 50 crank HP with our setup as we are selling you a 4 to 1 turbo header, or you can go to Rev or Turbonetics and get a log, keep you paint, keep your a/c and and put out the same HP…. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

alright, didn't know we were goign for an outright debate, but i'll respond.

1. the first post made by Full-Race wasn't performed by a vendor in the first place. Evans Tuning in PA performed all the tests independently. Sure the vendor put the post up, but hell it showed that they had made a manifold which outperformed a log style manifold by 68whp. I think any vendor would do this.

Next, you make constant jabs that you are required to lose AC, 100% untrue.

Example:
http://www.full-race.com/images/gallery/ac_kit/
Here you see a honda engine with a t3/t67 turbo installed. This is the largest t3 turbo available currently and its a tight fit but it fits perfectly with a 3in downpipe.

Next:
http://www.lovefabinc.com/index.php?page=productDetails&primary_id=10&PHPSESSID=09a6907cfb798791755bd1806e1d8190
Look at Lovefab's new sidewinder manifold. This manifold allows for a full length radiator, AC and a full 4in downpipe.

So you can run your t3/t67, have 500whp and still keep your AC on while you cruise around texas. These manifolds would show marked improvements.

Next point, regarding how you can make power with cast manifolds. Please re-read my first post. Notice I said people are making alot of power with cast manifolds with long runners, IE all of the new Rev-Hard manifolds aren't just log manifolds, they have 4 runners that merge into one, I wouldn't consider them a log:
http://www.revhard.com/turbomanifold/cast.asp#BSeriesTurboManifold
or the link to www.inlinepro.com. There manifold has cast long runners and performs great. Longer runners tend to allow for better flow and allows the heat to be engineered to be focused on the turbine better.

I'll side with colin over a group of car owners loving one particular vendor. Although I will say, the people at Full-Race currently have thier manifolds on many 500+whp cars, some with AC, some without. They have countless groups of people that use thier manifolds for daily driving, they also have thier manifolds on Pro racers. Thier name stands for itself. I'd venture to say that if they came to the scion community, many people would go to them.

although i do see your point, the scion cams are no where near as aggressive as a honda, just won't happen. The log manifold i'm sure will be good for 80% of teh userbase, as well they haven't really experience alot of power before, so any increase is a good increase. Yet if someone moves to take thier car to the next level and push for a high hp vehicle, the tubular manifold will end up replacing the log. Hell look at ZPI, thier stage 3 kit, eliminates the AC and you get a ..... tubular manifold.

*yawn* Tubular manifolds 9/10 times decrease ramp time for turbochargers, and help with upper rpm flow as well. So if you get the exhaust pulses to the turbine wheel without disruption in the smoothest flow possible it's only beneficial. A tubular manifold if built correctly will outshine a log style in everyway, performance, durability, and looks. Seems like a win to me.

My manifold is not an equal length unit. Tubular is better than log regardless of the length of the runners because it directs the flow. Log manifolds have insane turbulence inside of them, think about it. Equal length is a step up from tubular, obviously.

NVS_TC - Where are you now? You stated that there are no gains to be had by adding a tubular to a stago 0 kit because oldman said so. You said I'm arguing but I'm agreeing with him. Why don't you come in here and debate with me. I never agreed with him, I said tubular is ALWAYS better than a log style, regardless of what performance you can get out of a log. I said for 6-8psi, log is probably fine (what oldman said), then oldman decided to turn south and go into Honda kits and a/c and this other junk to avoid the topic at hand.

I've read a lot of turbo2liter's post and apprently he likes to argue even if someone agrees with him.

OLDMAN post that you wont make any power with stage 0 by changing out the manifold to a tubular . Do you understand????? Its worthless to have a tubular manifold on stage 0!!!

Raamaudio - You can come in here too since you were to quick to criticize me in the other thread. Let's see if you really know anything or if you're just another sheep in the flock.

Turbo2, or is that terrible two, can you just stop trying to argue with everyone and read what they really posted?

I do believe a mid level system can have some gain from a tubular manifold but not by alot and normally you just move the lower end response up the RPM scale, sometimes gaining power is just moving it around;)

Tubular manifolds will spool a turbo sooner, thus, moving the powerband earlier, not later. Also, your jokes aren't funny and you obviously dont know much about FI, stick to what you know, audiophile.

I'm going to bust a nut with all this talk of turbo...

lmao

my manifold is not an equal length unit. Tubular is better than log regardless of the length of the runners because it directs the flow. Log manifolds have insane turbulence inside of them, think about it. Equal length is a step up from tubular, obviously.

Just for you :tap: I’ve gone back and cut and paste the topic of this post equal lenght manifold and turbo. Yes the post clearly states that I’m talking about tubular equal length manifold and how they are NOT needed with a sub 10 PSI, Camry cam engine. :lalala: :lalala:

Now that you admit to running a flow modified LOG manifold. :rofl: vs an equal length tube manifold, I would suspect you really don't have any knowledge or experience with the conversion from log to equal length tube manifolds. Do we have a problem on what the word equal means?


NVS_TC - Where are you now? You stated that there are no gains to be had by adding a tubular to a stago 0 kit because oldman said so. You said I'm arguing but I'm agreeing with him. Why don't you come in here and debate with me. I never agreed with him, I said tubular is ALWAYS better than a log style,

The topic started on the ZPI thread and FYI the ZPI manifold is built out of tube. I said that an equal length manifold is not needed in a sub 10 PSI, Camry cam application. Here are the direct cut and paste. :doh:

What’s the big deal about an equal length manifold? This is a turbo setup you will NEVER have negative reverberation wave port scavenging like in a tuned length header. The only benefits are:

If this was a large cam or VTEC engine with near 300 degrees of exhaust while on the big lobe then yes an equal length manifold will give you some better flow isolation till the collector. This is a stock Camry cam read that as maybe a 220 degree cam.

If this was a 600 WHP engine, then yes the more isolated and channeled the flow before the turbo the better. As we are talking nearly 4 times the HP as the stock engine was meant to flow.

If we are talking bling.. yep equal length tube of snakes looks real good.

Now if we are talking street cars with pump gas and 10 PSI of boost. Um you ain’t going to see much I know I know the equal length “look” like the flow so well and channel the flow to the collector so well. But we are really dealing with a pressure pulse wave in a semi-enclosed container so really 90 degree bends etc don’t mean much. You really need to be looking at a much bigger cam profile and a much higher RPM range to start seeing BIG payback for a equal length well channeled manifold.

I would rather have a cast iron one that I know won’t bust, is quiet, and has some channeling of flow, but logs are OK and I’ll bet you will be HARD pressed to find anywhere in this wonderful world of the internet of a dyno run: log vs smooth flow equal length tube manifold yield much gains on a Camry type cam sub 10 PSI setup.

Now racing, big boost, big cam, big RPM, big turbo… I ain’t got a clue.



regardless of what performance you can get out of a log. I said for 6-8psi, log is probably fine (what oldman said), then oldman decided to turn south and go into Honda kits and a/c and this other junk to avoid the topic at hand.

The topic at hand (please refer to the posting topic if you are once again unsure) :doh: :doh: , and for you, I have included the full cut and paste above, was the usefulness of an equal length manifold on a stock cam, sub 10 PSI engine. It is your bud that found a dyno run “proving” that this was not so, a dyno run that is flawed for so so many reason from an engine that I’ve already listed on the original post as one that COULD benefit from an equal length manifold. So yes please stick to the topic and that is once again :tap: :tap: the benefits of an equal length manifold on a stock Camry cam, 10 PSI engine for say $1000 vs just upgrading to a stage 1 ZPI package that has been dyno tested at +100 WHP. :love:

I guess we had a good discussion then :)

Also, you never replied to my PM, oldman.

1. the first post made by Full-Race wasn't performed by a vendor in the first place. Evans Tuning in PA performed all the tests independently. Sure the vendor put the post up, but hell it showed that they had made a manifold which outperformed a log style manifold by 68whp. I think any vendor would do this.

There is no need to “debate” as I can cut right to the chase: Do you believe that the base line 250 BASIC engine HP SAE corrected is what can be expected from a log manifold GS-R turbo kit + ancillaries at 10 PSI yes or no?

When I get that SIMPLE answer then we can continue on. :tap: :tap: :tap:

There is no need to “debate” as I can cut right to the chase: Do you believe that the base line 250 BASIC engine HP SAE corrected is what can be expected from a log manifold GS-R turbo kit + ancillaries at 10 PSI yes or no?

When I get that SIMPLE answer then we can continue on. :tap: :tap: :tap:

I think 250 may be possible pushing it to the max. From my personal experience tuning car, I've seen this.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=959616

Here is one person i've tuned. he put down 238whp @ 9psi on the drag3 manifold. So i would say it would be more of a log manifold than the revhard kit. To me the revhard is almost a cast 4-1 manifold, where the drag is a log. All 4 ports go into the log which goes into turbo.

Next he went to a equal length setup:
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1211059

I couldn't find his latest dynos, but I know he made 241whp@ 8psi on the same turbo with the new manifold, downpipe.

his old setup 11.9, new setup 11.7. Old 1/8th mile 7.85, new best was 7.41.

So from seeing his car, sure it picked up power.

I'm sure you don't agree with the original post of log vs tubular, but i think it goes for what you were asking. Yes this doesn't have much to do with scions, but the theory is still there. Not to mention the b16 has much milder cams than the GSR every has.

I think 250 may be possible pushing it to the max. From my personal experience tuning car, I've seen this.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=959616


The link you have is for a B16 with a FMU, a KNOW pitiful combination at 9 PSI with log at 240 wheel HP or about 270 engine HP. IMO if this was a B18c it would have done an easy 260 wheel HP or close to 300 engine HP. The baseline dyno you have posted before shows ENGINE HP for the baseline log manifold at 250 engine HP

I will now ask you again. Do you think 250 ENGINE HP or 215 WHP is what can be expected from a B18c turbo, log manifold, chip tune, ancillaries at 10 PSI? Yes or No?

Kick em in the Nards!....
Wolf man don't have nards!............
Wolf man has NARDS!

I will assume :tap: your answer to the question post is um no, that somewhere between 280 to 300 engine HP should be expected for the log manifold 10 PSI chip tuned B18c and thus the 250 HP figure was obviously a sand bag figure :doh: and thus no meaningful amount of “gain” can be construed from the 308 engine equal lenth tube header HP figure as I’ve show you TWO vendors with log manifolds that make about the same amount of HP. :clap: :clap:

I have owned and run both the drag setup and the Revhard, which I was one of the first to own, and was the guru on the Honda board when the rev manifold was being designed. :eyebrow: Plus Raymond? Forget now came down with his young bride to see my car and his manifold run way back in 1996 ish. So yes I am quite familiar with the setups in question.


I have stated and it has already been reposted that I prefer a flow styled log such as the alpawerks manifold. Clearly this thread is in opposition against equal length tube turbo headers. To even think the cast revhard manifold is anywhere close to design, flow, or pulsation balancing of a merged tube equal length header is fanciful leap at best. These cast manifolds are flow styled logs period.

http://www.alphawerks.com/alpha_frameset_turbo.htm


Here is one person i've tuned. he put down 238whp @ 9psi on the drag3 manifold. So i would say it would be more of a log manifold than the revhard kit. To me the revhard is almost a cast 4-1 manifold, where the drag is a log. All 4 ports go into the log which goes into turbo.

Next he went to a equal length setup:
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1211059

I couldn't find his latest dynos, but I know he made 241whp@ 8psi on the same turbo with the new manifold, downpipe.

Great and he made 3 WHP going from a pitiful drag log manifold to a equal length setup at 1 less PSI, let’s give him 12WHP for the PSI loss OK? He now has 15 WHP from a VTEC engine going from a pitiful log to a equal length 4 to 1 header, are we clear here? I think so.

If you refer to my initial post (where I cut and pasted on the post above) I clearly said a large cam VTEC engine WILL benefit from a equal length tube manifold. Above I think we can agree that 15 WHP at 10 PSI is reasonable to expect for such a large cam engine. The question is how much would a 10 PSI Camry cam engine gain? ½ that? Less then ½ that? How about my 6.5 PSI Camry cam engine? ¼ that? Less then ¼ that? Not even measurable? How do you even know the gains were made from the “style” of the manifold, maybe they all came from an external wastegate install or change of location?

Once again my intial musing would seem right on the money and all these convoluted post merely have to stretch the parameters to show gain. I’m sure they will, but as it stands a Camry cam, sub 10 PSI setup will not show much gains going from log to equal length tube turbo header. Which is EXACALLY VERBATUM what I said in my initial post. :pray: :pray: :clap: :clap: :clap:

So for $1000 bucks you can get an equal length turbo header that may give 3 WHP to 15 WHP, purely speculative BTW. :no:
Or a upgrade to a stage 1 kit good for 100 WHP :love: :love: :love:
For $300 bucks you can get a external wastegate that ZPI says is good for 10 WHP. :love:

I think I know where I’d spend the extra $1000.00 :love: :love: :love:

actually i think just about any honda engine with 10psi behind it shoudl be at 215whp, this includes D-series with vtec. fact of the matter is, its easy to do so if you have an engine that breaths good.

You keep talking about a revhard manifold, i think, well i'm too lazy to go back and copy & paste, but i've said repeatedly. The rev-hard isn't really a 'log' manifold. it has 4-1 designed chamber. Its just like the inlinepro manifold.

I think i've also said, that for the scion guys, its just not going to matter, as really you have next to zero choices right now. I mean you buy ZPI kit, you buy the better alpha kit or wait for the tubular scionspeed kit. Regardless you choices are extremely limited.

While the dyno of the white hatch didn't increase that much, he went from running 31 degrees of timing to 18 degrees of timing as well. As he went to a form of engien management. being able to control the engine took down some power, but regardless, he's running two tenths faster now, than he did before.

I don't understand at all how moving from an internal gate to an external will give you more hp. I always thought gates released excess exhaust gas, so if both cars are running the same turbos, same boost, and the internal gate has teh divide housing, then it wasn't increasing the backpressure.

Not to mention, the cost of the Neukins manifold on the white hatch was 500 bucks. While you wouldn't want it, as its not cheap. He was planning for a future build, where a drag3 ____box manifold wouldn't allow him to go.

The internal gate on the Scion was being routed back into the stock exhaust, while the external gate was being vented.

I'd guess this is good for more than 10whp, considering there are no internally gated dyno's produced by ZPI (there basic stage 0 package).

i thought they had divorced housings on the turbos, so regardless they were being rerouted...

I don't believe ZPI has done any testing on their internal gates. The dyno's they had were the stage 0 and stage 1, but with an external and fmic IIRC.

You keep talking about a revhard manifold, i think, well i'm too lazy to go back and copy & paste, but i've said repeatedly. The rev-hard isn't really a 'log' manifold. it has 4-1 designed chamber. Its just like the inlinepro manifold

I've owned the Rev hard manifold ran it for a year too. So I know what it looks like. It is a styled log and it is NOT a equal lenght tube turbo header.

Let say for "grins" this styled log manifold make 1/2 the HP gain from pure log to equal length turbo header or 7.5 WHP on the Honda. How much is this going to be on a tC? Say 1/2 that or 3 WHP... just not enough to worry about.

I think we all agree a styled cast log is hard to beat, I said that first off, I said that in a ZPI post, I say it again. Don't know why guys are not going with the alphawerks setup. If I had time that would be the way I'd go!

Mod cheap, mod twice. How many of you will stay happy with 300whp ;)

300 WHP, LSD, tires, clutch, suspension. I'm good :lalala:
I've been on the need for unlimit HP, the truth be know 90% of the turbo kit buyers will be happy at 300 WHP. If I wanted to go crazy, I would have go the RSX-S K20 and slapped it into a Honda Civic. If I wanted real power I would get a LS1 Camaro and shove in a LS2 and 150 HP of N20 and a 12 bolt...

First i dont have a good idea of what all this is and what a log is either if someone can post a pic of each that would be helpful, but i do know what an turbo exhuast manifold is, so are these the different types or designs or something?

But i would like the comparison of honda engines to the tc engine to cease cause they are not alike since they have vtec and we dont, so i am confused on why so many comparing is taking place, and we wont know unless someone like zpi states something after some testing right?

But from what i gather, for about what ever gains there are from a tubular one, i dont think i would spend 1 g for it unless i had the money or i done everything to my tc and was bored.

but thanks for all the info and if someone can clear up some misunderstaning stuff i am having, i would greatly appreciate it.

thanks for your time guys

A log manifold generally is basically a hollow metal log that connects all the exhaust gases to the turbo. The turbulence is inside and is much like a stock exhaust header in that all the gases get shot together on a whirlwind adventure to the turbo. Tubular manifolds send exhaust gases from each cylinder on a very fast, very directed journey into the turbo.

The gains are almost comparable to the gains of the OEM header and an after market header: pretty little. On a turbo, since the length of the manifold is short already, the gains can only be seen at the limit of power and are rarely realized on a street with a lot of normal cars and normal people driving along in their normal lives.

They can be easily realized on a track with plenty of lbs of air.


And the comparison between Honda engines and Toyota engines? It's a 2.0 iV-Tech to a 2.4 vvt-i. Almost same technology and therefore, comparable.

word

If I wanted to go crazy, I would have go the RSX-S K20 and slapped it into a Honda Civic. If I wanted real power I would get a LS1 Camaro and shove in a LS2 and 150 HP of N20 and a 12 bolt...

I <3 you.


I will agree that for the vast majority of individuals in the scion community, 220whp would be more than enough. I know that alot of them are under the age of 21 and in reality, I'd prefer for them to have less hp, than more :)

300 WHP, LSD, tires, clutch, suspension. I'm good :lalala:
I've been on the need for unlimit HP, the truth be know 90% of the turbo kit buyers will be happy at 300 WHP. If I wanted to go crazy, I would have go the RSX-S K20 and slapped it into a Honda Civic. If I wanted real power I would get a LS1 Camaro and shove in a LS2 and 150 HP of N20 and a 12 bolt...


or you could get a chevy truck and pull a parrish.. hit 600-700hp on an AWD truck :bow: :bow:

Kid, you have any idea what vtec is? You talk like it's comparable to a 50shot. I digress..

it's comparable to no torque but lots of hp LOL

It's exactly the same as just putting an aggressive cam in your Scion.

er.. not exactly

V-Tec allows different cam profiles. Once at the set point in engine speed, the cams switch to more aggressive profile giving more time for the valves to be open. At least this is how I understand vtec, am I wrong?

Putting performance cams in the Scion would be different because the angles variate continuously by a few degrees. VVTl-i would be more comparable to the vtec found in the RSX-S.

Huh, I'm guessing you meant the lvtec. Regular vtec is just the same if I'm right. Maybe I'm wrong, probably.

Pray enlighten me if I'm wrong.


edit: thank you, engifineer

V-Tec allows different cam profiles. Once at the set point in engine speed, the cams switch to more aggressive profile giving more time for the valves to be open. At least this is how I understand vtec, am I wrong?

Putting performance cams in the Scion would be different because the profiles variate continuously by a few degrees. VVTl-i would be more comparable to the vtec found in the RSX-S.

Huh, I'm guessing you meant the lvtec. Regular vtec is just the same if I'm right. Maybe I'm wrong, probably.

Pray enlighten me if I'm wrong.

In VVT-I the profiles dont really vary.. the cam angle does.

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=68426

Yep LOW 12's on 14 PSI and a LOG. :bow: :bow: :bow: :lalala: :lalala:
Why would anybody think of a TRD supercharger? :rofl: :rofl:

Also IMO VTEC and turbo is not a steet combination made in heaven, I would ALWAYS take a bigger engine with turbo. The primary problem is a turbo sized for top end VTEC power say 8000 RPM, will be into heavy surge at 2500 RPM, the setup if driven on the street can melt the blade off the turbo, not fun. It is much harder for tC's 6200 RPM engine to put a turbo sized for max power at 5600 RPM into surge at 2200 RPM, basic engine dynamics. Of course a race car does not have streetable issues with the turbo.... hence ALL OEM use small turbos as they don't want melted turbo blades from Joe Average. :nails:

You guys are having too much fun:)

I really do not have the time or energy to debate as working my arse off on to many things right now and not really in the debating mood.

Here is a question for all of you guys.

If a tubular manifold(long) is better than a cast which is better than a log, where does that put a tubular manifold that is not only equal length but also has a firing order arrangement of the piping in the same rotation as the turbine wheel?

;)

Rick

oldman, i'm going to have to disagree with you on vtec + turbo = non-streetable. A car that has been properly tuned you won't realize any problems. I know i haven't had to worry about my turbo turbine blades melting. But I'm sure the arguement is how honda people tend to run big turbos, so they don't die in high rpms. I've tuned cars with .48ar, 50 trim t3/t4 turbos. To me that's not a big turbo. When you have full boost by 3k rpms and can drive up to 8k without any problems, i don't really see any issues. Hell the last h22a I tuned, had full boost by 2700, redlined at 8100rpms with a t3/t61. The car got over 30mpg on the highway. Transistion in and out of boost was seemless for normal day driving, sure if you put your food to the floor, you needed to hold on, but that's how any powerful car will be.

On the cars that I've tuned, there isn't the inherent 'jump' at vtec, due to it being lowered to a lower rpm band to help the turbo spool. Instead of having vtec kick in at 5500rpms, I tend to set it between 4k and 4500. It actually feels pretty seemless.

but like the old saying goes, opinions are like _______s, everyone has one.

for Rick, i think a longer tubular manifold, even while it may not be equal length will still be able to carry the heat more directed and help in the upper rpms. IE the full-race manifolds are not equal length, the inner runners are shorter, but have proven gains.

oldman, what's your opinion on the Jotech car?

http://www.jotechracing.com/html/projectcars/projectcar_details.asp?ProjectVehicleID=55

Ok, but what about a circular input pattern, arranging the piping ot have the exhaust flow in a circle according to firing order? :):)

That is an interesting one, I better dig up my Corky Bell book and see what he has to say, seems he did go over that.

Rick

seems that the circular input pattern would be be a way to try and get something closer to a divided tang input. IE on honda manifolds, as they fire 1-3, 4-2, you see 1&3 combine and 4&2 combine. 1&3 on my manifold are on teh top firing, with 2&4 firing on the bottom, Yet its a full 4-1 merge collector, so no real difference as my turbo doesn't have the divided tang. Either way, i guess you could say my manifold is setup in a circular pattern, as it moves 1-3-4-2.

http://gallery.502streetscene.net/data/500/medium/Autolab_Topmount_003.jpg

Cool,
Looks really sweet, from what I have read, some time ago so my memory is rather rusty, this is still an improvement over most manifold designs:) Some cars just do not have enough room to do this unfortunately. I laid out one for my turbo Matrix and it was a bear, especially working on the back of the engine, major backaches, headaches, lol, finally gave up as just not enough room without introducing other compromises.

Rick

firewalls are overrated :)

I have moded a few in my day but the AC was right behind it and not giving that up in So Cal when inland, on the coast was ok though;)

oldman, what's your opinion on the Jotech car?

http://www.jotechracing.com/html/projectcars/projectcar_details.asp?ProjectVehicleID=55

Nice show "race car", but is it a car? Anyway I think it may be running just a little more then 10 PSI of bost :doh: :doh:

Also since a "race car" has a turbo of 2:1 P/R you really do need to go to some HUGE pipe. My street car has a P/R of maybe 4:1 so I think at 1/4 the HP and double the density of my street car exhaust per pound of intake boost, I think I can use a little less flow then the "race car"

Now to your turbo VTEC, yes please provide me a turbo map of you non-surge VTEC turbo and I will plot the flow line of a B18C engine on it, proving beyond ANY doubt that a VTEC B18 with large turbo making top end power is indeed into heavy surge under many street conditions. I will standby for your map. :tap: :tap: :tap: :tap:

Trailer Queen, pretty much useless for anything but advertising.

They may run it down the QTR mile on occasion though, not with those silly wagon wheels, dang ugly things, lol!

I understand the reason for show cars but I really do not like them.

If they have an audio system I may listen to one out of hundreds if it appears they had a clue when building the system but mostly just pure bling and sounds like crapola.

Once in awhile a car really impresses me, usually a race car and my favorites go around left and right corners.

Rick

trailer queens are always useless.

real cars get driven daily :wink:

it is a pretty trick setup though

Yes, it looks great but I prefer a car with a reasonable amount of power(as much as you can effectively use then add 20% more is about right in any car), real tires and wheels(I prefer 17 and smaller), brakes to fit the intended purpose not as big as you can show off with, etc, etc, then drive the dang thing, hard, fast, as much as you can and live with a few nicks and dings because real cars get them:):)

My cars do not get driven daily because I have them apart alot doing more mods, ones that most people cannot even see and many just do not seem to understand. And my cars usually look a bit battle worn because I would rather live with some scars and buy real go fast parts.

As stated though, I understand the need for bling for show as that is what most of the customers want to see.

One fairly large show I was at to support my buddies there had a rally inspired WRX that was very clean but had rock chips, quite a few from kicking up real rocks, it had the cleanest roll cage I have ever seen(home built, simply impectable), had real rally tires and wheels, etc, etc, but it was a daily driver as well. It actually recieved more attention than I expected it to and I made sure I let the owner know how much I loved it and respected him for bringing a real car to a car show:)

Rick

oldman, what's your opinion on the Jotech car?

http://www.jotechracing.com/html/projectcars/projectcar_details.asp?ProjectVehicleID=55

Nice show "race car", but is it a car? Anyway I think it may be running just a little more then 10 PSI of bost :doh: :doh:

Also since a "race car" has a turbo of 2:1 P/R you really do need to go to some HUGE pipe. My street car has a P/R of maybe 4:1 so I think at 1/4 the HP and double the density of my street car exhaust per pound of intake boost, I think I can use a little less flow then the "race car"

Now to your turbo VTEC, yes please provide me a turbo map of you non-surge VTEC turbo and I will plot the flow line of a B18C engine on it, proving beyond ANY doubt that a VTEC B18 with large turbo making top end power is indeed into heavy surge under many street conditions. I will standby for your map. :tap: :tap: :tap: :tap:


Well it's gonna be difficult for him to find a map for that turbo. However it shares the same wheel they use in both the sc61 and I believe its standard in the gt40 turbo's as well. The sc61 will support around 630hp @ the crank. His turbo should support slightly less right around 600hp. I dont see exactly how it would be surging.. He should actually be right around the sweet spot in the upper rpms and the boost level he is running, rather then pushing a smaller turbo to it's limits. No it wouldnt be the ideal autocross turbo, but for what he uses for I'd say it's a pretty good choice.


http://www.modified.com/sportculture/downloads/dyno/MOV03519.MPG

Thats the blue jotec scion on the dyno.

I was mainly pointing out the Jotech car due to the tubular manifold and the fact that it was running pretty damn quick.

I'd be interested to see your graphs oldman, just to see what you assume a b18c1 does verse my block, as the pressure calculations have alot of variables in place.

Either way, the turbo I have is the GT3561e by Precision. basicly a GT35r exhaust wheel combined with a GT40 compressor wheel.

Very common to the ever popular SC61 turbo that alot of honda people use, but with a better turbine wheel.

You want, you can compare my old t3/t4oe 60 trim setup. It was more of a stock b18c1 than the motor is now, since the head was stock then and i only reved to 8200rpms instead of 9600 as i do now.

http://www.turbocalculator.com/compressor-maps/t04e-60.jpg

http://gallery.502streetscene.net/data/500/medium/gt40map.jpg

or the larger image
http://gallery.502streetscene.net/data/500/gt40map.jpg
For the GT40 compressor. I have it that between 4500rpms and 9500rpms i'm perfectly in the graph at my daily 1bar of boost.

I'll bust the cals when I have time. I've driven many 1.8 to 2.0 liter cars so I can just look at the graph and know that I will need about 15 lbs air /minute at 4500 RPM. Just looking at the graph would show that anything above 1.8 PR or about 12 PSI at the turbo ( lower at the intake due to pressure drop of the pipe and intercooler) this wheel is into surge where bad things like aluminum melting can happen in a short period of time. Not to mention that is way way way off the efficiency island. Eye ball look tells me around 8200 RPM at say 18 PSI is where the peak island is.

Thanks a perfect example of Joe Average drive this turbo on the street, blade melt off. thanks.. :lalala: :lalala:

with a few seconds using this site:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-air-fuel-flow.htm
I come up with:
at 3000 RPM a B18C NA 80% VE is flowing6 lbs air / minute: Verdict turbo will be in surge at ANY boost level

at 4000 RPM 85% VE it is flowing 9 lbs air /minute: verdict turbo will be in surge at ANY boost level

at 5000 RPM 100% VE it is flowing 112.23 lb air / minute: turbo in low effeciency island but able to make 1.4 PR to 1.7 PR of boost or 6 to 10 PSI. At this point the flow and VE shoot up and the turbo will rapidly be on peak PR island.

Clearly the above is NOT streetable by Joe Average on his way to work. :no:

for grins a scion can spool the turbo at 3500 RPM 100% VE (smaller cam and port size allows for greater VE at lower RPM) PR of 1.4 to 1.6 or 6 to 9 PSI reaching the peak islands much faster by 4500 RPM PR of 2.2 or 18 PSI....

Still clearly not drivable by Joe Average, but with a guy that knows not to bog the engine it could be a REAL terror on the street action scene.

So you see VTEC and turbo is NOT a match made in street driving heaven while big engine with low and broad torque curve (high levels of VE at low RPM) is a match made in heaven... Hence Scion speed's "log" is in the LOW 12s with 14 PSI on a much much smaller turbo able to make boost sub 3000 RPM..... :clap: on a near 3000 lbs car not some hollowed out sans A/C sans PS, Civic :nope:

So... not to get all that off topic (still talking about turbos!) but a Civic Si is meant for NA only? A turbo Civic EX isn't a good deal?

A s/c Civic seems so odd... I was considering the 06 Si but I guess that means no more FI?

oldman you are of course 100% right, i will melt the turbo completely off the car, as at 3900rpms, it is making 10psi of boost and metal shavings are shooting at baby jesus at mach 1. while my calcs show me making around 22lb/min at 5k rpms you are right, the car doesn't spool and more aluminum melts, as after all you drive teh car daily. By this time i'm walking to work and being overcome by the heat of the turbo blakes which have become enbedded into my skull from the massive turbine failure that all big turbo honda's experience since none of them can be driven on the roads.

by 5500rpms, the turbo is spooling somehow even after its melted into a lump of shiney alumium.

I used to consider you a wise individual. I'll retract all those thoughts. The car gets boost by 3300rpms, by 4200rpms when vtec kicks in, its at 15psi. Somehow nothing has melted off and broken off, from 4200 to 9500rpms the car is pulling itself at an ever increasing rate of speed.

I ran 11s last year on 13psi. Some reason a 12 second pass doesn't impress me. Scionspeed's turbo kit that they have posted is a tubular manifold, are you refering to ZPI's turbo kit? With a power band that reaches to 9500rpms, I don't want boost sub 3000rpms. That would restrict my top end, where i have a more aggressive cam and can more air better.

I hope that you join Jotech, Titan or AEM and educate them on performance honda's. For years they have made amazing power out of hondas with turbos that are much larger than mine. MANY are street drivin, Darin at Titan has become a major tuner and builder in the honda market. So many hondas are on the road with large turbos and you really expect me to believe the ____ you are spilling? That the turbine will melt itself because it is hitting the surge limit soo much. Dear god, get off your horse, your calculations are greatly skewed and completely non-realistic.

You act like only in a scion can you have AC and power, I've repeatly proven that wrong, but your new reply is the turbo will melt, is your ego that great that you cannot honestly see that there are thousands of hondas on the roads right now that have this?

I know you are ____ed about the log vs tubular manifold thing that I posted from a vendor, but damn to say that turbos are melting due to the gross oversizing of the turbo. That my low cam is creating catastrophic EGTs.

WOW is all I can say. WOW.

VTEC has a few problems like high CR, very light weight stuff like rods and pistons on the B18Cs. DOn't know about the K series...

The point is that if you size a turbo on a 8000 to 9000+ VTEC the turbo can be into heavy surge on a daily driver. The K is a bigger engine and can support a big turbo beter then a B series. The real point is the Honda boys sporting equal length turbo headers, big boost levels etc making like VTEC sewing machines are the bomb. I really want a car first and I've spent several years with turbo VTEC DOHC and while nice will be no where as nice as a tC with say stage 1 ZPI, LSD, clutch, a good set of tires, rear swaybar. 12.1 is FAST for a car with turbo, clutch (assumed) slicks. I had WAY more work into my Integra sans slicks and I never got into the low 12s. You know like $3000 into just th head and cams, $1000+ into th block, close to $2000 into the trans / clutch / shifter.... on and on... Plus in the end it got ripped off, the tC well the engine is a dime a dozen Camry engine, nobody is ripping tCs off for the engine. Yeah I know every Civic guy got his engine from Japan... :nope:

So once you get your GS-R ripped off to support the Civic boy crowd's race habit, you figure low production Honda VTEC cars just might as well have a "steal me" sign welded onto them.....

i guess i just see the different types of setups. I've tuned many cars in town with AC, PS and 18g turbos. instant spool.

I recently tuned a h22a turbo with a big ___ t3/t61 turbo, spooled in the 2800rpm range, all the way to 8100rpms.

My car is laggy, yes, its not an evo as I tell some of my evo buddy's that drive around at 1700-2200rpms as they cruise, its a high reving honda, you drive around at 3000-3500rpms and have instant power with these big turbos.

I think things have really come alot way from where you started. like i said, last year I ran 11.7, 100% stock head, never touched, pistons/rods (so around 2000 total into the block with replacing all seals/pumps and full balancing). 100% stock tranny, a 400 buck clutch and a turbo kit. Its not as cheap as the scion, but overall my price tag was under that of waht scion owners are paying.

Its all about what you want. If my car gets stolen, well I'll come looking for you as you are forecasting it, but that's what insurance is for. Yes, in big metro areas it can happen. With mine being a weekend warrior kept locked away in my garage, that's one angry thief to pass over the 2004 G35c, 2004 RSX S and all the real valuables in the house, just to get to a damn 13yr old civic.

don't forget, my compression is 9:1, i have all forged internals.

the stock motor cars I tune, I pull out some timing, they still get over 30mpg and may run 12s & 11s with slicks. Its all in the tune.

and how much does your VTEC DOHC weight? I figure on about 2200 lbs um compare that to 2930 for a tC and you can see why 12.1 from a BONE stock tC with a BONE stock trans is good.

I agree that lots can be done to a B series VTEC but gee 13 years of R&D. Just think if the tC / Camry kits take off there are lots of these run of the mill engine and the tC is really a cheap car compared to the cheapest VTEC DOHC that can be purchased.

Yeah it took 3.5 years for my car to get ripped, but it can and will happen, as the B engine DOHC VTEC came in only two cars and the 1.8 version came in only one! IMO you buy a SI 2006 it should have a steal me plaque on the back. Sure insurance will take car of it and I should ADD that insurance on the car will be FAR over a tC once they start getting ripped off.

Don't get me on the Evo, got Evo buds, they got $$$$$ into their car and NONE have smelled 11s PERIOD. I know you have links and every Evo owner is into the 11s :lalala:

all my evo friends have thousands into thier cars and they still have ugly front ends and stupid taillights. But they can atleast get 4 big ___ guys comfortably in the car as we go somewhere.

my favorite evo owner is the, "well this car with the same mods I have ran this...." almost like a supra owner, but 400whp shy and still running 12s.

last year my car weighed in and around 2200lbs, this year i'm up 250lbs with teh rollcage and sparco seats.

a 12 second pass is good, I've seen alot of new cars doing it (neons, and some of the new corvettes.) But then again, speed is all realitive. I think you have a bad taste about hondas due to your run ins with theives. I'm sure if you got a turbo kit with a big nasty FMIC, the same issue could occur wtih your tC.

I like Honda, but when they went back to strut for the front suspension IMO the street performance went way down, the new revised 2005 RSX suspension is a step in the right direction, and the TSX of course is still with A-Arms up front. A nice car I though about buying one say maybe my third choice.

Yeah Evo, a nice drivetrain waiting for a body.....

So the point is daily driver, big displacement, lower CR, nonVTEC engine with log manifold and turbo is just fine, and cheap too. Like I said in the very first post.. :relief:

I'll still take my high reving honda any day with a nice tubular manifold.

you know, garrett has even said that tubular manifolds are better than logs :)

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech102.html

#3

"One item of note is durability of this design. Because of the welded joints, thinner wall sections, and reduced stiffness, these types of manifolds are often susceptible to cracking due to thermal expansion/contraction and vibration. "

I've already said ALL OEM and most big aftermarket turbo makers pick a cast log or styled log manifold. So "better" for your admited weekend only sans A/C "car" is not "better" for my everyday car 100s of heat cycles, log which is $1000 cheaper thensome equal lenght turbo headers with iffy gains in power sub 10 PSI, Camry cam. For $1000 I could have a stage 1 intercooler with no cracking and heat problems and 100 WHP with the capacity to do even 150 WHp more. :doh:

Needless to same ALL OEM and MOST aftermarket kits should know a little something about the trade offs between a simple log type manifold and en equal length turbo header on street applications. :doh:

If you take your weekend only engine, turbo header combination vs the ZPI log combination and put it into the a brand X weight "car" the ZPI would perform better and be far more driveable with less cost. Big engine + turbo on log is > VTEC bling bling turbo header, large turbo. A fact that will be shown at race tracks and in many street smack downs in the near future. To put it simply take 1000 performance buffs but them in a X brand car with A/C that is 3000 lbs, weld the hood shut and at the end of the year ask them which engine they like: Turbo header, B18c DOHC VTEC or turbo log Camry engine..... ALL would say um I'll thake the REAL engine vs the sewing machine thanks. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Hence Toyota is going from VVTL-i Celica to a larger engine tC baes VVT-i, Honda dumped DOHC VTECfor a V6 on the Accord which makes 240 HP on regular gas vs the Euro Accord )(aka TSX) at 200 HP DOHC VTEC and premium fuel with the same MPG. Which car is way faster? Clearly the bigger engine is BETTER. :bow:

The B engine has 13 years of developement, vs 1 year for the tC. The tC engine family is so widespread now vs um 2 cars with DOHC VTEC: RSX-S and TSX ( no I did not forget about the S2000, like how many do I see?). Meaning that in one year there are more Toyota family engines in the US then ALL DOHC VTEC engines ever in the US. That amount of installed user base will SOON crush Honda VTEC crowd, that and the far more streetable, driveable big engine turbo combination.... Street application turbo and VTEC is a forced union and the divorce is going to be ugly. One only has to look at the link I have above that shows a TURBO Intercooled VTEC DOHC engine making 150 ft-lbs of torque peak! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: thats only a few more then a stock tC, a stage 1 ZPI makes nearly double that torque over most of the RPM band. :silly:

I'm sure there will be some weekend strip-o Civics with turbo VTEC sans A/C, but most of us don't really consider them "cars". :nope:

i think before tC with ZPI kits take over the entire import community, honda's will still shine and still be on top. I'm sure you disagree, but in reality, the new K20 engine is lightyears above the old b-series. They are just a bit pricey at the moment. But when you can take one of them and put down 200whp with just a header and a K-pro, in pure OEM fashion, a boosted k20 would be simply amazing and would still rev high.

I know alot of people love torque, but tehy need it, their cars weigh 3000lbs. Look at SRT4s, my local friend made 480whp & 515wlbs, he ran a 11.75 a 25psi in the qtr. That same day, i ran a 11.75 at 12psi with 355whp/245wlbs.

You are also only comparing, the said ZPI kit, which will suffer from the same weaknesses you posted, as its a tubular log manifold, its not cast. So all your arguments of how great cast manifold are, well guess what, you won't have that.

I love how you think that all honda with turbos have to be stripped without AC. I know alot of guys making very good power from 3k to 8k rpms that have AC and full interiors, heat, daily driven. Just because I choose to drive my 04 Infiniti G35c everyday over a 92 civic, I don't think you should assume that there aren't alot of daily driven turbo civics.

I think your judgement is extremely clouded, but then again, its a scion board, so I guess you should be 110% for that car, if not why own one right?

In truth out side of my own Honda turbo, I say they not only don't have A/C, they don't have water cooling of the turbo, air filters, and sound deadning, and paint of one color :rofl: go ahead take a poll how many turbo Civics with a water cooled turbo that really has the water hooked up? NONE, but they got a $200.00 turbo timmer which is 1/millionth as good at preventing coke build up. :rofl:

Sure the K is nice what does it come in DOHC VTEC-i? um right two cars: RSX-S and TSX, what are the production number of these cars? How many will be stolen to provide organ donations to Civics? VS the tC, Camry, Rav4, on and on with a 2A engine. So sure it has power but um comes in two limit production cars from $25,000 to $30,000 not what I'd call chump change. Needless to say I'm correct and that one year of Toyota production is far greater then ALL years of DOHC VTEC and the already inplace 2A engine has a far larger user base. Meaning in a very short while all companies that want to stay afloat will have to have a 2A performance products.

I'm sure the Honda crowd will be alive and kicking with 95%of them sporting a D engine, CAI, fart pipe and 120 WHP on the best day. :rofl: :rofl: Then 2% will actually own a 2006 Civic SI, and 2% will own a JDM K series AKA stolen from the city next door. Yeh some market there. Huge but :silly:

Look the ZPI log has 1/10 the welds and is 1/10 the tube so I would expect 1/100 the cracking problems due to expansion and / or harmonic resonance. I've said at leas 20 times on this board that I prefer cast iron turbo manifolds, and I'll say it again. I prefer cast iron turbo exhaust manifolds, call me old fashion.

To put it in the nutshell there is ONE good Honda engine and it comes right now today in two low production cars from $25,000 to $32,000. While the 2A comes in a $16,000 scion and offers near enough performance. How much HP is the RSX making um ZPI is saying I'll get 240 WHP for $2400 meaning a tC sub $20,000 can be at 240 WHP.. Here is the Rev kit at 6.5 PSI for the RSX-S and it is um pathetic. 254 WHP and only 199 ft lbs to the wheels very peaky torque too!!! vs the ZPI intercooled kit at 340 WHP and 360 ft lbs for near flat torque.

http://www.revhard.com/dynosheets.asp#RSXTurboKit

For grins you can look at the econo VTEC Civic SI kit above it that puts out way way more and flatter torque. So much for VTEC...

i guess I should take pics of the numorous 99-00 Si's around town with turbos, AC, sound deadening, and paint of one color that run low 11-12s. Or the turbo GSRs with AC, turbo, all one color paint, or the h22a turbos with AC, sound deadening, all the same paint.

You think that because I have a weekend warrior, ALLLLLLL hondas have to be that way.

You can easily tell the JDM K20 engines, the engine code is different and they ahve a 4.9 final drive, which is very easy to tell, but you know best and I know nothing.

I recently tuned a stock 98 Civic EX with the D16 in it. GT28rs, ran 84mph in the 1/8th. Not bad for a d-series.

http://www.hondata.com/dynok20a2cybernationstg1.html

You can tell that this "tuned" turbo K20 has a average of 215 ft-lbs ENGINE which is about 185 ft lbs wheel :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Honda guys always gotta say PEAK HP cause there ain't much under peak. :rofl:

Yea I can really see the market for VTEC trubo Hondas: buy a car, buy stolen engine, turbo and race it. I'm sure they are all fully streetable cars..... :rofl: Sorry whey you gotta swap the whole powertrain just to get any sort of performance you kind of lost me on the "car" subject.

Oh and I should mention the tC has SO much room for a turbo while the RSX-S needs a trained asbestos octapus to work on it, don't see many of them around do you :no:

http://www.hondata.com/dynok20a2stockvsk20amodded.html

also it takes a little more then um a tune and header for 200 WHP. That is a whole list of stuff on a race engine and even with that it can't equal a stock tC in wheel torque, you know the thing that moves a car down the street and powers the A/C? :rofl: All a moot point as there are few indeed RSX-S or TSX, I'm sure with my stage 0, the few that I meet are in for a MAJOR spanking... 260 ft-lbs of flat torque for my tC vs 140 ft-lbs of peaky torque for the RSX. :rofl:

so we are now comparing a turbocharged tC to a stock k20a? seems reasonable.

If all you need is torque to run fast, than I have no clue how so many turbo hondas are in the 11s as most have under 300wlbs of torque, where there is one tC with a turbo kit with over 300wlbs and still not in the 11s. interesting.

What? Read the link that is a TURBO RSX-S at 185 ft-lbs wheel :rofl: :rofl:

No I would figure in your sans A/C stripped out 2200 lbs "CAR" you don't need much torque. But um my street driven A/C Car does indeed need and use toruqe to move me down the road. Like I've said VTEC guys can only talk bling and peak HP, and how fast their tin can drag queen is. Great. In the near future my turbo tC will be taking down Mustangs in street fights.

No come back for a drivetrain that first needs to be stolen out of an Acura and then shoved into a Civic, :rofl: toss out the A/C and wow it makes an OK drag queen, and the world is somehow impressed. :doh: Oh but I got a bling bling turbo header there and it almost makes 200 ft-lbs at 6500 RPM :silly:

Since you can't even read the topic which says equal length turbo tubes:doh: and can't even read where I listed engines that could use one: B18C DOHC VTEC :doh: :doh: . Seems pointless to continue as I think most of know what a turbo Civic with stolen Acura engine is like. Most of know that the long runner equal length bling bling manifold is not goint to take 5000 heat cycles or a splash of ice and rain water after being run red hot.. :nails: :nails: Go figure why OEM and large kit builders pick simple manifolds... casue their customers need to get to work on Monday morning with said manifold, and could careless about 15 more WHP that an equal lenght manifold may get them.

I am not arguing honda or scion or EL header or not, but I have noticed that so many people treat torque and HP as two completely different things. You MUST have a combination of RPM AND torque in order to produce HP, so they are much more closely related than many seem to treat them.

oldman,

i thougth this was a debate, are we resorting to name calling and childishness? You are now calling me a thief, saying I stolen an engine to put into my car. I guess when all else fails just start calling names right.

You are telling me honda's don't make torque, you are correct sir, but i'll we reemphasize i don't need a large amount of torque to have my car run fast. That's the general point. You are saying that all i want is bling and a stripped out car. My car doesn't have AC or PS and now its a stripped out drag queen, I have seating for four easily in the car. Just because I choose to drive a G35c everyday doesn't mean i can't drive the hatch daily. It does get over 30mpg, so its not hard on my pocket book.

You act like the only way to get a honda to go fast is taht you have to remove AC, you have to swap engines. So not true, I posted that I tuned a 100% stock D-series with a tubular manifold, with a gt28r turbo, AC, PS, it ran 84mph in the 1/8th. that's faster than the stage 0 kit scion did. WHY was it able to do this without having a stolen engine, a log manifold and 400wlbs of torque? The car has around 215whp and maybe 180wlbs.

I saw the original thread and debate between turbo2liter where you said there are tubular manifolds are not worth it and will always crack. I posted up one reply that simply said, here are two different tests which showed a good HP increase from moving from a tubular log manifold to a tubular manifold. Then you started on your honda bashing. I'm sorry your spent alot of money on your honda and it never went fast enough.

Just because you had something stolen don't get all ____ed at the world trying to make your point. I'm trying to be civil hear without the need for 10 smilies next to all of my sentences.

OEM companies and large aftermarket distributors make cast manifolds because it lessens thier risk of failures. If a tubular manifold, either my big tubular one, or your tubular log manifold doesn't have enouth penetration when welding they will crack. Both your manifold and mine were made from the exact same material bought from exactly the same place. They are both made of 8 gauge stainless Steel piping with 308 filler rod used. Assuming they are welded correctly they both won't crack.

I look forward your reply calling me names, endless smilies and pointing out that there are not gains from log to tubular manifolds. Although you yourslef have said there are gains and have said how cast manifolds are the best, you aren't even following your own advice. I guess its more of a do as I say, not how I do sort of thing. FYI, i tuned a h22a with a t3/t4 57 trim this weekend, we tried our best to melt the turbine blades but the dame thing wouldn't. It spooled at 2500rpms and stayed at full boost til 8200rpms.

you guys are way off topic.. why don't ya just start sending personal messages

Sceen4ever wrote i thougth this was a debate, are we resorting to name calling and childishness? You are now calling me a thief, saying I stolen an engine to put into my car. I guess when all else fails just start calling names right.

Sorry dude, you going to have to find me a cut and paste on that one. I did speculate a very small % of 2006 up Civics will have K series engines, and that a smaller % of those Civics will have stole engines, since you own neither the car nor the engine, you lost me on the subject of total market demand which clearly favors the 2A Toyota.


Sceen4ever wrote You are telling me honda's don't make torque, you are correct sir,

Thank you, and it is torque in a normal streetdriven car that moves it down the street powers the A/C and allows a more reasonable gear ratio. That is why my Camaro can get close to 30 MPG on the highway and cruse at 65 MPH at 1700 RPM. It is call torque and torque is what moves the car.

Sceen4ever wrote But i'll we reemphasize i don't need a large amount of torque to have my car run fast. That's the general point.

Torque is not needed to move a sans A/C 2200 lbs Civic down the ¼ mile. I just don’t define such a vehicle as a “car”. Since this is um a tC forum which is a near 3000 lbs car with A/C and can sit 5, having some torque is indeed a significant issue.

How is this related to the topic? Simple we have seen the dyno graphs and realize these equal length turbo headers don’t make any power or torque at all bellow 4200 RPM or so, so they can make more peak, anywhere from 3 WHP to 15 WHP as a guestimate on a tC. That HP increase will be above the range where a tC will be driven as a car 99.9% of the time. So it is not only the lack of power gain from the equal length turbo header, it is the range where the gain is produced at least for a street driven car.

Sceen4ever wrote You act like the only way to get a honda to go fast is taht you have to remove AC, you have to swap engines. So not true, I posted that I tuned a 100% stock D-series with a tubular manifold, with a gt28r turbo, AC, PS, it ran 84mph in the 1/8th. that's faster than the stage 0 kit scion did. WHY was it able to do this without having a stolen engine, a log manifold and 400wlbs of torque? The car has around 215whp and maybe 180wlbs.

That is great, I can’t rember the last time I’ve seen a fast D Honda, they seem to fall into the 17 second or above range of life. I’ve seen quite a few with FI into the low 16s. Does that mean they are ALL slow? Dunno, but it does mean that small engines with VTEC as a whole don’t seem to be performing as well as BIG engines that will be soon gaining a turbo.

Sceen4ever wrote I saw the original thread and debate between turbo2liter where you said there are tubular manifolds are not worth it and will always crack. I posted up one reply that simply said, here are two different tests which showed a good HP increase from moving from a tubular log manifold to a tubular manifold.

Once again I don’t think I have used the words “always” I would say that the longer the tube and the more complex the bend, there is more tendency to crack. I’m glad that you posted a gain over a log. I you have bothered to read the post, I’ve clearly indicated that I’m talking about a Camry cam engine sub 10 PSI. I’ve clearly stated that gains could be found on a VTEC B18C type of setup. So you find a Honda VTEC DOHC with 1 WHP “gain” and wow that just shows that a Camry cam sub 10 PSI engine will gain almost as much. The first “gain” of 56 BHP was also on a DOHC VTEC and I’ve already said the original run was sandbagged, and followed with two vendor dyno showing a B18c makes far more then 250 BHP with 10 PSI of boost and log manifold. Is there a gain going to equal length turbo headers with a DOHC VTEC, why yes there are, how much is subject to speculation, how much will this same setup give a tC sub 10 PSI and stock cams (you know the subject of the thread) is even more speculative and I think we can all agree on anywhere from 3 to 15 WHP is a legitimate ball park.

To sum it up: stock cam, sub 10 PSI Camry cam engine, full exhaust one would expect to see anywhere from 3 to 15 WHP when going from a log to an equal length turbo header, from worst to best and that there are many in between setups that should offer in between power gains. Is this fair enough? The cost will be about $1000.00 over a log / cast log / cast flow improved log etc and that in general there will be more chance of some sort of fitment or cracking issues.


Sceen4ever wrote OEM companies and large aftermarket distributors make cast manifolds because it lessens thier risk of failures. If a tubular manifold, either my big tubular one, or your tubular log manifold doesn't have enouth penetration when welding they will crack. Both your manifold and mine were made from the exact same material bought from exactly the same place. They are both made of 8 gauge stainless Steel piping with 308 filler rod used. Assuming they are welded correctly they both won't crack.

I would also assume that my way smaller, way simpler manifold presents far less places to crack hence as an overall unit would be subject to far less cracking. I would also say that you assume cracking is ONLY due to welding, while I think it is due to expansion, heat, rapid temperature changes and vibration, ALL of which rapidly increase with the size and complexity of the manifold; rendering your one dimensional failure regime useless in predicting which manifold will fail and when.


Sceen4ever wrote Although you yourslef have said there are gains and have said how cast manifolds are the best, you aren't even following your own advice.

Once gain you seem confused on what an equal length tubular turbo header is and why it is not worth getting one on a low boost, Camry cam, tC. :lalala:

No come back for a drivetrain that first needs to be stolen out of an Acura and then shoved into a Civic,

there's your copy and paste.

:lalala: :rofl: :love: :come:

I just wanted to post some smilies.

why do you keep going on about a car that has AC removed. Most cars I tune run standalone, within them i have a present that turns off AC above 5000rpms or 35% trottle, torque isn't needed to move them. If you get above the criteria, the AC disables for the moment, just the AC compressor, fan is still blowing and frankly the driver has no clue its off, other than not having the drag of the AC being on. You stereotype the ____ out of hondas. In order for them to be fast they have to have no ac and be a stripped drag car. Also in that log vs tubular manifold, i don't know where you saw bhp, but those were straight WHP numbers. you assume that the car is sandbagged just based off another website where a car was running full timing advance, IE 31 degrees of timing in boost, as the revhard kit only had a FMU setup and a missing link. The full-race test is between two cars with a standalone to safely adjust timing and fuel. So yes a car running an FMU and full timing advance may have a few more HP but it will blow up faster than ____.

^^^ I still don't see how oldman directly called you a thief.

Once gain you seem confused on what an equal length tubular turbo header is and why it is not worth getting one on a low boost, Camry cam, tC.

:bow: I'm still trying to figure out the point seen4ever is trying to make. You're still are trying to make a point about tubular manifolds and oldman has NOT disagreed with you. On a weekend "race" engine, it will benefit, on a street machine spending most of the time at low boost, there is little-to-no difference. Is there something I'm missing?

ZPI:
Stage 0 & 1: Log Manifold = lifetime warranty
Stage 2: Tube manifold = 5 year warranty

I'd be happier with the lifetime warranty.

I guess I took it as he said a tubular manifold has no benefits unless you have a high cam engine. I think there will be a good benefit.

Maybe i over-reacted about the theif thing, but after he said my turbine blades are going to melt, my car WILL be stolen, i just assumed he was saying i stole my engine too.

does anyone have a stage 2 turbo kit? Just noticed everyone has stage 0,1 and 3. wtf happened to 2?

question.. how is racing a honda like entering the special olympics?



























answer: even if you win you're still retarded!!


haha ok you guys go back to bickering

I'm going to launch off idle and race your beloved stage 23 tC and get it on video, very soon.

Now be nice, AWD is not a fair game playing card in this "debate" ;)

I am not building a dragster so have no real need for super car power but am considering AWD in the next year or two, a fairly big undertaking but nothing that cannot be done(already have some measurements done:)

Rick

seen4ever, what can I say your post has collapsed into confusion, maybe you need coffee and get back to me. There is only one post on a Honda comparing a log to an equal length tubular, the dynopak is listed on the graph as ENGINE HP. I for one don’t think it is “normal” for a 10 PSI boosted B18c to put out 250 ENGINE HP or about 215 WHP, hence my speculation that the baseline dyno was sandbagged, a common technique to show how much “better” the $1000 equal length header is.


Engineer, yes torque and HP are related, but when I say the engine has no torque, I mean the average torque through the range is substantially below what one would expect based on PEAK HP numbers. The Honda engines above are all good examples of this 340 engine HP and 220 engine ft-lbs vs say a ZPI kit of 380 engine HP and 360 ft-lbs. Sure WOT, ¼ mile with a Banzai rev it up slip the clutch launch uses ONLY HP, but a daily drive to and fro is using TORQUE and even though both engines will be quick down the ¼ mile, only one is “driveable” in normal operating mode.

Back to Tech why does a equal length turbo header work?

1) it isolates the pulse of the exhaust a full 720 degrees i.e. the charge has its own pipe. While a log isolates the 180 degrees. Meaning on a small cam that flows say 220 degrees there is 20 degrees of flow fighting, on a large cam like a Type R there maybe 280 degrees of flow or fully 50 degrees of flow fighting (where two ports are flowing at the same time). It is easy to see why the larger cam likes an isolated equal length turbo header as it has MORE then twice the flow overlap.

2) P/R a race or high performance street engine runs a 2:1 P/R and is usually uncapped after that or has a very free flow exhaust. A street car has a P/R of 4:1. Meaning the exhaust plus of a race engine has far less static high pressure air in the manifold, less restriction per PSI of boost from the turbo and less restriction via back pressure from the exhaust. All meaning that a race car will show more benefits from a large smooth equal length turbo header, in the exact same fashion that a NA race engine shows with large equal length header vs a street car.

3) As discussed above MUCH of this gain can be found with a nice flowed or countered log type manifold either cast or tube. I prefer a cast.

4) the smaller the cam and the lower the boost and the higher the P/R the smaller the power gain from a equal length turbo header.

Engineer, yes torque and HP are related, but when I say the engine has no torque, I mean the average torque through the range is substantially below what one would expect based on PEAK HP numbers. The Honda engines above are all good examples of this 340 engine HP and 220 engine ft-lbs vs say a ZPI kit of 380 engine HP and 360 ft-lbs. Sure WOT, ¼ mile with a Banzai rev it up slip the clutch launch uses ONLY HP, but a daily drive to and fro is using TORQUE and even though both engines will be quick down the ¼ mile, only one is “driveable” in normal operating mode.

.

I was actually referring more to seen4evers references to torque and HP above. Take note that I am not in the least trying to take sides, as you both have made some valid points. I am a huge fan of torquey motors and their ability to produce low end HP, which is especially important on the street. I dont have much use for a street car that hits its peak HP at 7000 rpm and has little HP off the line. I prefer to have the larger T in the HP = (T * RPM)/5252 equation. So it does depend on application. Risking being pulled into the debate though, the exhaust builders I have spoken with and read articles by agree on one thing: tubular headers are great, equal length makes very little difference relatively. On a race car, these tiny differences are more important. On a street racer they become lost in the wash of other variables. Collector length and proper sizing (not too big or two small) ofthe piping play much more crucial roles than having exact length headers if you look at the physics involved in the entire process.

There is my input. I do not wish to turn this into a bigger argument, which is why I have waited so long to add much at all. I do not claim to be be an exhaust guru by any means either.

Those are WHP numbers, Jeff just has the titles setup strange. You will say i'm lying, but I know Jeff, he runs an independent shop out of PA. he runs a full-race kit, but in no way is he a vendor from them or sell thier products, he tunes cars. I know his car put down 308whp at 10psi,

either way, debating with you is like talking to my wife during her red flag time, inrelevant facts are always brought up and over dramatized. I'll point out something, you will come back that I have stripped down sans AC car. I will point out that there are many turbo cars with AC that do just fine, you will point out i have a stripped down drag car sans AC. or you will say that its impossible to drive my car as the turbo is melting.

My daily driver probably has more torque than my honda, regardless of the fact, if i push down on the pedal in my G35c it goes, but no where near as fast as my honda does or many of the turbo honda with ac and leather interior. Sure torque is great downlow to push you back in the seat, but having a high gear ratio helps considerably.

but really, i wasn't trying for a 10 page drama debate about who's car will be stolen first. I was just posting two different dyno graphs which showed two different cars benefitting. You said they were jokes, i don't think they were.

Not to kill the owning of mr. turbo2liter, aka colin, but here is a test for a honda

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=925312
This was a 250 whp car with a log manifold that then gained 68whp untuned when they used the same tune, downpipe and turbo with the tubular manifold. The log manifold spools 300rpms faster, but once the engine starts breathing, the tubular instantly has the advantage..

Well the graph says "flywheel" so I would say either your Vendor is either a fool or incompitent. Thus one can conclude that the HP is sandbagged. :relief:

oh and surge that cause a blade to melt off happends in low to medium boost, low flow conditions know as "normal driving" so you can beat on the car all you want and never see surge :silly: Try have the GF drive it for a week and let me know if the turbo is still in once piece, that is if she likes a car with no A/C. :rofl:

You must lose alot when debating with the GF :rofl:

i drove the car to and from nashville last year, a constant high to low vacuum or 1-2psi depending on hills and during that entire 3hr trip, the turbo never melted. Then we proceeded to drive around town in stop and go without hammering, turbo didn't melt.

I tuned a t3/t67 turbo'd GSR a few months back, he drives it daily, i called him yesterday and asked if his turbo had melted yet, he said it hadn't.

i dropped the GF years ago, i'm married old man, read the post, i clearly state, arguing with you is like arguing with my wife.

hey look, when all else fails, what did you go off and spout off about, lack of AC again. imagine that. i don't think you know as much as you claim, you honestly think all big turbo hondas melt off thier turbine blades due to hitting the surge limit. I've been around soo many big turbo hondas that are driven daily and are used to get across town, zero have had turbos melt.

you are right, Jeff Evans is a fool and incompetent. I think you should talk to him directly, http://www.boosted-hybrid.com

make sure to tell him that big turbos on honda will melt and that hondas aren't able to go anywhere because if they are turbo they much be a stripped down drag car sans AC.

all I want to add is that when I dyno, we read power to the tires, not flywheel. I'd hate to think of what my car makes at the crank, as it has put down 560+ to the tires on 26 lbs and C16.

...on a Revhard log mani and an SC61.

and it's daily driven on 14-20 lbs, on pump gas, making just under 350 to the tires.

that is sans AC and PS, but I'll trade them both to run down a GSXR-750 from a 40 kick. :nails:

hasn't you turbo melted off yet? I know my car made 355whp last year and my turbo hadn't melted off yet.

I just dyno'd over 500 AWHP and drove to and from the dyno 30 minutes each way. Maybe it's just oldman's tuning that melt's turbine's, since he is the only one that has replicated it thus far.

Note to oldman: Buy an EGT gauge, if it goes over 1600, hire seen4ever to tune your.. uhh.. do you even have a Scion?

haha OMG

i read the majority of this post and now my eye wont stop twitching!!!! lol

alot of that is in the tune, I use AEM EMS, and I've got 25+ hours on the dyno with one of the east coast's best AEM tuners behind the laptop.

holy hell, 25hrs tuning on a dyno?

i couldn't imagine your tuning costs. who was the tuner? tried to think of people around north carolina and i'm not thinking of anyone. I know mase in florida, Jeff in PA, i know stoopid makes trips out to the east from tiem to time.

25 hours? Tuning what? I could tune my car with a tuning fork in 25 hours, let alone a standalone and a wideband.

lets keep in mind this is an OBD-0 car, that has been rewired with an OBD-1 underhood harness, with a jumper on the inside harness from OBD-0 to OBD-1.

It's basically a relic (91 SI) with the newest electronics money can buy. I drive this car every day, it's made 4 hour trips to Atlanta, 14 hour trips to West Palm Beach, and will get 29 mpg if I can keep my foot out of it.

Jack Harris from P1 Auto tuned it, and he is quite the perfectionist. The goal was to have a daily driven drag car that could go anywhere at anytime. The tuning cost were not all that high, mostly because I bought the EMS and UEGO from P1, and he has done quite a bit of motor work for me too. I can't stress enough the driveability of this car, even with 1000cc Precision injectors, DPR Racing stage IV headwork and some of the nastiest Web Racing cams ever ground.

this is a full interior car that has gone 11.26 @ 131 spinning through the traps on BFG Drag Radials, and I drove it 4 hours to the dragstrip in 85 degree weather.

It was worth it. :love:

Do you have an lsd? And what kind of numbers are you putting down?

good numbers sir, I'm interested to get mine back to the track this year. I've got it able to drive perfect with 1000s in it, but probably need to do some mild adjustments in the upper RPM range.

but a damn good mph there.

YS1 tranny w/ a Quaife...350hp/245tq on 93 octane and 14 lbs....550+hp/390+tq on 116 octane and 27 lbs.

good numbers sir, I'm interested to get mine back to the track this year. I've got it able to drive perfect with 1000s in it, but probably need to do some mild adjustments in the upper RPM range.

but a damn good mph there.

thanks man, I've ran as big as 26" slicks on it too, but I have to take the fenders, hood, and front bumper cover off to do that. :eyebrow:

i would expect more numbers though on low boost :)

I made 355whp/245wlbs @ 13psi on a t3/t4e, 60 trim, stage 5. maybe its the manifold, hehe

I stick to 24.5in slicks, as well i like fenders :)

open diff, 93 octane and 11.75@117mph.

Ain't me saying your turbo will melt, the turbo map is produced by the OEM turbo manufacturer, so you can deny reality all you want, it is easy to see the turbo surge line and the effects of turbo driven into surge are well know. So either your car violates the laws of physics or you like your vendor; the "expert" who can't read a dynopak dyno that clearly says flywheel on the sandbag run, are maybe less than credible. :doh:

Since you are a turbo “expert” please plot your engine flow on your turbo and prove that your turbo is not into surge. It took me less then 10 seconds to eyeball the first map, and maybe 2 minutes to calculate that a 1.8T would be WAY WAY WAY into the surge line with that huge turbo map posted. So what is it? Does your car violate the laws of physics and automotive engineering or ….. This is a scion board where cars have to function within the laws of physics. :nails:

“To the left of the envelope, where it is marked "surge limit", the flow through the compressor is unstable and will go up and down and backwards unpredictably. This is surging. Do not pick a turbo that will operate in this area! It can be very damaging.”

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html

Ain't me saying your turbo will melt, the turbo map is produced by the OEM turbo manufacturer, so you can deny reality all you want, it is easy to see the turbo surge line and the effects of turbo driven into surge are well know. So either your car violates the laws of physics or you like your vendor; the "expert" who can't read a dynopak dyno that clearly says flywheel on the sandbag run, are maybe less than credible. :doh:

Since you are a turbo “expert” please plot your engine flow on your turbo and prove that your turbo is not into surge. It took me less then 10 seconds to eyeball the first map, and maybe 2 minutes to calculate that a 1.8T would be WAY WAY WAY into the surge line with that huge turbo map posted. So what is it? Does your car violate the laws of physics and automotive engineering or ….. This is a scion board where cars have to function within the laws of physics. :nails:

“To the left of the envelope, where it is marked "surge limit", the flow through the compressor is unstable and will go up and down and backwards unpredictably. This is surging. Do not pick a turbo that will operate in this area! It can be very damaging.”

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html

Maybe you should stop reading magazines, stop drawing lines on paper, stop talking about the cars you once had, and how what we are doing is either a) stolen b) violating physics or c) a gutted race car, actually go BUY a car, whatever it may be, and mod it. Have you ever heard of anti-surge housings? These have been around.. probably since you last played with a turbo.

All this talk makes my head hurt. Facts remain, there are 3 people (seen4ever, turbocivic, and myself) who all have 500+WHP 10 second cars, and we think you are a dumbass. Now, I don't care what you once had, and you may be quite knowledgable, but there's also the equal chance you are 17yrs old and just read the latest ThuperStreet. You sound intelligent, but you also keep making reptitive points with your only evidence being some paper you drew a few lines on. Our evidence is in the dyno and track. Who's counts for more?

turbo2liter wrote Maybe you should stop reading magazines, stop drawing lines on paper, stop talking about the cars you once had, and how what we are doing is either a) stolen b) violating physics or c) a gutted race car, actually go BUY a car, whatever it may be, and mod it.

I have three cars sitting in my driveway I own all three, not some payment plan, two of the three have turbo setups on them, the Scion tC is waiting for one. Have you notices this is a tC forum? Do you own a tC?

OK I consider a 2200 lbs Civic with a drivetrain taken from an Acura with no A/C to be a somewhat less then a “car”. But I can see we consider cars to be a little different. I kind of like mine to be one color too..

turbo2liter wrote Have you ever heard of anti-surge housings? These have been around.. probably since you last played with a turbo.

No but feel free to start a new post about it. I have heard of a surge resistant Ti-Al blade and this is the turbo I run on my VW shipped to me all the way from Germany, setup hand fabricated and put on by me too. Something like 360 ft-lbs to the wheels… but I digress.


turbo2liter wrote All this talk makes my head hurt. Facts remain, there are 3 people (seen4ever, turbocivic, and myself) who all have 500+WHP 10 second cars,

Do you lets see seen4ever “made 355whp/245wlbs @ 13psi on a t3/t4e, 60 trim, stage 5. maybe its the manifold, hehe

We have already talked about your “cars” and I for one don’t see how a drag queen sans A/C has any relevance to how equal length manifolds do or do not make WHP on a Camry cam engine sub 10 PSI. Or is it you boys need a tag team cause each piece of data presented is hopelessly flawed? Come now three grown men and so far the only dyno proof of the efficiency of a equal length manifold has be ONE HP oh and the other obviously sandbagged run where the vendor says it is wheel HP while the picture of his OWN dyno says “flywheel”.

So yes I think a picture and dyno run of your 500+ WHP ride would do wonders for all of us. My cars are perfect in everyway and have A/C too but they don't have 500+ WHP and god like longevity. :doh:

turbo2liter wrote and we think you are a dumbass. Now, I don't care what you once had, and you may be quite knowledgable, but there's also the equal chance you are 17yrs old and just read the latest ThuperStreet.

Maybe true but how embarrassing that all three of you boys to be body slammed by some 17 year old! :rofl: Just between you and me, um, that is a picture of the oldlady and I never hooked up with that kind of eye candy when I was in high school.

turbo2liter wrote You sound intelligent, but you also keep making reptitive points with your only evidence being some paper you drew a few lines on. Our evidence is in the dyno and track. Who's counts for more?

If we are talking trailer queens I would agree, but if you refer to the topic of this tread it is about equal length turbo manifolds and their workability and reliability on Camry cam, low boost street cars. :tap:

Obviously you boys are used to being the gurus on your boards and I’m sure your ride is faster then mine, no matter what I do. I on the other hand pride myself on stuff added to my ride working for years and years and years and years and yes keeping my A/C working too. I think it is quite tiresome that young men insist that they somehow have it all, power, looks, speed, low price, dependability et al. I on the other hand thru years or work and knowledge realize that a car is a compromise and any 10 second 4 banger leaves a whole lot to be desired on the streetability / reliability / price. But you can continue to pretend you car in specific violates laws of nature no doubt colored by your extreme naiveté on the subject. :no:

http://198.204.14.7/news/moststolen/2002/2002vehnj.htm

Low low production GS-R is the number ONE stolen car :nails: Why? Cause Honda boys STEAL them, :doh:

Number 3 car a Civic SI with the DOHC VTEC :rofl: :rofl:

Gee look how many Integras get stolen, I wonder how is stealing them? They make up SO many of the top 25 cars and the Integra makes up so LITTLE of total car production. Yeh, I'm sure every Honda boy has a JDM engine.... :rofl: :rofl:

Moral of the story: Honda boys race JDM engines, all the stolen Acuras go to the same place where my socks go :doh: Honda boys don't like A/Cs, Honda boys insist their ride is into the 11s and is fully streetable, yet you never see one at the tacks or get beat by one on the road; Kind of like the lockness monster eh? :rofl:

Oh here is a post from my bud Robert who owns forcedperformance and has built a few custom turbos for me too:

"This turbo is the result of the last 2 years of product development. Our goal was to produce a bolt-in, stock appearing turbocharger for the EVO4-8 platform that outperformed the stock turbo.
We went through many prototypes, some pretty poor to be honest, before satisfying our initial design criteria.

The turbo had to spool up like a stock turbo and not give up any bottom end torque. The turbo had to sustain boost in the top end without dropping off, at least enough to maximize power on standard 93 octane fuel. Also there could be no undesirable back pressure issues and of course compressor surging under WOT at any RPM was totally unacceptable.

This sounds easy enough, but it actually turned out to be one of the tougher challanges we have ever faced. Mitsubishi has done a very good job with the stock turbo and identifing the existing shortcomings was not easy work.

Now the work is done. "

http://linux.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FP&Product_Code=NTEVO8WR&Category_Code=Lancer_EVO


All that work and $1600 just to have the same boost curve and a little more top end then stock. Either Robert and the Evo engineers OEM don't know squat or it is indeed hard to build a quick spool turbo without surge under street conditions and have any hope of some stable top end boost.

Maybe you three boys should start your own company or do the laws of physics only cease to exist on your rides? :nails:

i'll paypal you a dollar to stop LOL

oldman, i have my excel file here of my new setup, let me make a screen shot of it I guess and I'll let you look at my calcs.

my current numbers are solely based on my old setup, which you've seen, the the black manifold which did allow for AC, but as you pointed out, i went out and stole my engine.

second, i get this feeling i know you from somewhere, maybe its the same color comment, as well the car is the same color, but make me think of someone local.....

either way, the calcs I have, show the car always above the surge limit. I know with the t3/t4oe 60 trim, stage 5 that i ran the 11sec pass on, it had 8k miles on it, i would assume 7900 of which were off boost driving around town.

how much? :rofl:

All kind of funny when you ask one of these "experts" to plot the flow line of his turbo and the thread goes to hell. We all know that these large turbo are not streetable and ain't boosting at 2500 RPM as the "experts" have posted... :rofl:

You know what it is, these guys have been trolling their "skills" for a while and have never been taken to task. Just look at the sandbag link, um the "expert" says it is wheel HP while the picture of the actual dyno says "flywheel" but don't bother the experts with the facts.

How much HP does a turbo actually use say ZPI stage 0? maybe 10 HP in total, so how much are you getting by pulse spacing, smooth tubes etc? Sure some cause of less pulse fighting and we have the Honda VTEC dyno showing one HP :rofl:

I will say this, you are saying every honda with a big turbo is hitting the surge limit. There are hundreds if not thousands of users on www.honda-tech.com within the forced-induction forum. Many many many run big turbos, no one has ever reported the turbine melting. The only car i've ever hit the surge limit was a Supra with a GT42r without the anti-surge housing.

http://gallery.502streetscene.net/data/500/turbonumbers.JPG

If this is becoming a penis measuring contest, I have a 2004 G35c and my hatch that are both paid for as well. What area are you going after? It seems you either want to say I have stolen parts, my car is going to be stolen are you are constantly going after me not having AC.

I've repeated stated that there are many cars with turbos and ACs. I guess i need start posting pictures or something for you to believe me.

You talk of the 1whp difference. That car has run over .2 tenths faster in the 1/4 mile. That car also went from running 31 degrees timing at 8psi to running 24 degrees at 8psi.

either way, moral of story, you are right, as no matter what is presented here, you will still disbelieve that my car has never had a turbo fail due to surge limits.

how much? :rofl:

All kind of funny when you ask one of these "experts" to plot the flow line of his turbo and the thread goes to hell. We all know that these large turbo are not streetable and ain't boosting at 2500 RPM as the "experts" have posted... :rofl:

You know what it is, these guys have been trolling their "skills" for a while and have never been taken to task. Just look at the sandbag link, um the "expert" says it is wheel HP while the picture of the actual dyno says "flywheel" but don't bother the experts with the facts.

How much HP does a turbo actually use say ZPI stage 0? maybe 10 HP in total, so how much are you getting by pulse spacing, smooth tubes etc? Sure some cause of less pulse fighting and we have the Honda VTEC dyno showing one HP :rofl:

all kinds of funny when someone realizes that I have mapped out all calculations before I even purchased the turbo. Whoa imagine that, I did some ____ing research about the parts i put on my car and the manifold i wanted for the car. I did extensive research on the vendor i purchased all parts from.

my old setup, that turbo was from Forced Performance, I too talked to Robert for his recommendations for my honda, He recommended for my then 300whp goal on pump gas, that I go for the t3/t4oe, 60 trim with stage 5 wheel and 360 degree thrust bearing. WOW, i know people within the industry too....

When i was looking for 500whp car this time, I called Rod Short @ Precision Turbo and asked for his recommendations. I told Rod that I wanted a 4-bolt turbine housing, Precision had never done that before, they had always just bought a Garrett housing and put it on thier turbo. They started to make thier own housing and I have the first Precision 4-bolt turbine housing for a t3 now. I have a turbo they recommended over the SC61, aka GT3561e, in order to meet the horsepower I was seeking. I chose a topmount turbo manifold for multiple reasons.

1. the ability to keep the merge collector as a low merge angle.
2. to have a perfectly positioned turbo compressor for a backdoor intercooler setup to cut down on intercooler piping.
3. to keep the Oil return line as straight as possible in to the moroso oil pan.


Believe it or not, I actually did a ____load of research before just bolting ____ onto my car.

so we now know that your "car" also has no A/C? and you have 8K on that turbo so that is some sort of longevity proof :doh: I don't know about stolen as last I check the DSM was not in high demand, you can buy one form the owner almost as cheap as you could stal one. :rofl:

Like I said I have what I consider a street car and you have what you consider a street car. On my A/C street car with $2400 into it a log manifold is just fine and I want more then 100K before my turbo melts off hopefully 150K from the turbo and 200K from the drivetrain.

You for some reason think a trailer queen race car shows that you know something about longevity. I say the OEM knows, and some common sense one can build a street car. To pretend your car is anything other then a race car only makes you sound silly IMO. You will note I want to see a picture of your "car" so I can decided if it is a "car". I have no doubt that your "car" makes above 500 WHP. I have every doubt that I would consider it a car. The last time I've had a roadside breakdown, tow home on a drivetrain failure over say 500,000 miles was um um um... I burned a valve head off a N20 / turbo GS-R in 1994, I blew the intake manifold off on a miss shift on a 88 CRX in 1988, I busted the flywheel off my Corolla 3TG in 1978. My Camaro, VW, two Volvos, Corolla, tC, all have had ZERO drivetrain failures over the last 7 almost 8 years and no failures at all outside the normal VW crap...

I have had street driven turbo cars since the 70s I have learned a whole lot about them. I have seen youth think that the older guys don't know anything. Fools go where wisemen fear to tread.

Your bud Robert at FP? Funny you just took a quote right off his website. I've probably talked to Robert more than you, and it's just casually when I order parts.

If we are getting into a who's dick is bigger, my 2003 Tacoma Crew Cab is completly paid off which I bought brand new with cash, as well as my Talon in the garage. No credit cards here. The truck is one color, and the Talon is as well, other than the factory black roof and wing.

Hand fabricated turbo from Germany? LoL!! PUT DOWN THE MAGAZINE. This is getting good. I don't think I've heard a better line than this lately.

Trailer Queens? I drove my car to the local track last year and never once went home on a trailer. I plan on doing the same this year, and I frequently drive my car around town.

I also had an 99 Integra for 2 years, never once had a problem with it. Using your logic of stolen Honda engines, I guess my engine is stolen as well since the VIN's don't match. Oh wait, I just put a different block in it.

The only point you have that holds water is that your Scion will show little to no gains on 10psi by going to a tubular manifold. Everything else, all your talk abou theft, non-AC, surging and melting turbines, you have no idea. Why don't you start posting up pictures of melted turbines on a 4 banger, instead of us having to prove it doesn't happen. The door swings both ways..

Robert knows about turbo failure and he likes to upgrade the thrust bearing.

Now if I went with the EVo then I would look into the white rabbit, Robert's old shop is about 5 miles from my work.

A turbo driven into surge will fail, nothing can be more true, the blades can melt, the shaft can snap, the bearings take funny loads as the flow walks back and forth during the surge event hence the upgraded thrust. A streetable turbo that will go 100+ must address these problems and more.

Guys... really....

Looking through the posts on this thread alone (not to mention this argument was moved from somewhere else... so this isnt all of it) and conservatively guessing on the time each response would take you guys have probably spent 2 - 3 hours a peice on this in the last week or so!!! Again, I am not taking anyones side, as the stories and argument have just gone crazy it seems, but DAMN this has drug out!

If we are getting into a who's dick is bigger.....

Whoa imagine that, I did some ____ing research

If you want to post on Scion life, regardless of content, please do so within the rules. They *clearly* state no profanity, including mispelling it.

I've probably talked to Robert more than you, and it's just casually when I order parts.

I sincerely believe you do indeed order far more turbo parts then I do.

If we are getting into a who's dick is bigger,
Clearly it was you that started off on that tangent, with your 500+ HP "car" whatever hawn and my “car” sans A/C and stripped out is so fast that I know everything about turbo performance even though the topic is small cam sub 10 PSI boost, something your “car” does not have, hence your need to show your dick, which proved little about the subject under discussion.

Hand fabricated turbo from Germany? LoL!! PUT DOWN THE MAGAZINE. This is getting good. I don't think I've heard a better line than this lately.

My steet car? Sorry I’ll leave the A/C killing turbo bling manifold to you guys. The turbo core was made in Germany, I hand fabricated the pipes, and had the housings milled and the wheel clipped and hand built the down pipe, and fabricated the lines too.

Trailer Queens? I drove my car to the local track last year and never once went home on a trailer. I plan on doing the same this year, and I frequently drive my car around town.
I’m sure it is, immortal turbo, immortal car. Works for me. Bet the hood is welded shut too?

I also had an 99 Integra for 2 years, never once had a problem with it. Using your logic of stolen Honda engines, I guess my engine is stolen as well since the VIN's don't match. Oh wait, I just put a different block in it.
I’m sure that was a JDM block too LOL, poor guy down your street.. the one with the stolen Integra.
The only point you have that holds water is that your Scion will show little to no gains on 10psi by going to a tubular manifold.
Oh you mean the topic of the thread. Why yes I know that.
Everything else, all your talk abou theft
I have show from the link GS-R number one car stolen in NJ, Cvic DOHC number 3, all stolen for their drivetrains by Civic owners. Repeat thought the nation.
non-AC,
At least two of the tag team boy's cars have no A/C in support of a tubular manifold that is a fact. LOL
surging
A well know fact that destroys turbo chargers. Hence the OEM turbo makers provide maps which clearly indicate if the turbo will be in surge. But I forgot you got 8K on your current what number is that 5th maybe 10th turbo, so you know all about street longevity due to direct experience in a kind of anti-longevity way. Kind of like a 2 pack a day smoker telling me how long he is going to live AFTER he quits.
and melting turbines, you have no idea.
Your correct, my turbochargers are all working many of them going over 100K.
Why don't you start posting up pictures of melted turbines on a 4 banger, instead of us having to prove it doesn't happen. The door swings both ways..
All true except for that I have ever OEM car maker doing the same thing small turbo for the street, Robert with his super expensive white rabbit turbo, and ALL turbo OEM all stating or by application implying that it is very very bad to drive a turbo into surge. A significant problem on 1.6 to 1.8 VTECH DOHC engines with large turbo, do you have one of those? Or do you have a 2.0 Mitsu no VTECH?

Guys... really....

Looking through the posts on this thread alone (not to mention this argument was moved from somewhere else... so this isnt all of it) and conservatively guessing on the time each response would take you guys have probably spent 2 - 3 hours a peice on this in the last week or so!!! Again, I am not taking anyones side, as the stories and argument have just gone crazy it seems, but DAMN this has drug out!

I'm a fast typer I figure it takes me about a few minutes a post. I'll let you know if I need a tag team. You can train as backup.

What is the outcome of the whole thread? Well just like I said in the very first post, um equal length turbo manifold on tC sub 10 PSI makes no sense.

I prefer a cast flowed log.

There is some power to be found on large cam engines like the DOHC VTEC
:yawn:

If you guys can't act like adults don't post up.

locked!

If you guys can't act like adults don't post up.

locked!