I would be nice but no contest its not even funny how bad you'd get beat, I mean just left for dead flat-out. The cooper S makes 160h.p only the WORKS package gives it 200 h.p. and it is over $5000.00 thats 1/3 of what the xb costs!!!. and it weighs i belive 2800 lbs. It has the 6-sp Getrag. I have 180h.p. in my Matrix XRS but not alot of tourqe. The toyota 6-speed sucks. My freinds cooper S beats the Matrix all the way up to about 120 mph where i can pull it but not by much, only due to the extreme intake capabilities of the high speed cam @ 8500rpm, intake,exhaust. The cooper S is one bad-___ little car especilly with the works package, but then your looking at 15k scion out the door vs. 20-25k for the cooper that is if you can find a cooper for sale at sticker price.
But the Scion is FAR AND AWAY MORE RELIABLE, my freinds has seen the dealer about 6 times the build quality sucks in comparison. Im so glad I bought my XB instead of the mini S. come next year im keping the XB. The matrix gets traded in on the new Mustang w 300 hp/300lb N/A and a bulletproof drivetrain. Im keeping the XB till it dies then im going to rebuild it again and again.

isnt a stock cooper juss 110hp while the xb is 105hp. I was juss wonderin since the s is juss a supercharged version at 200hp, if the soon to come super/turbo chargers would gain the same amount or even more hp into the xb witt cheaper or equal results on cash.

isnt a stock cooper juss 110hp while the xb is 105hp. I was juss wonderin since the s is juss a supercharged version at 200hp, if the soon to come super/turbo chargers would gain the same amount or even more hp into the xb witt cheaper or equal results on cash.

http://www.miniusa.com/link/ourcars/features/cooper_s/specifications

it says 169hp which is less than that at the wheels. our s/c are making 130 something hp. i would think they will be able to do better than this with the t/c by a little. the xb's c/r is too high to boost too much and have it be reliable.

isnt a stock cooper juss 110hp while the xb is 105hp. I was juss wonderin since the s is juss a supercharged version at 200hp, if the soon to come super/turbo chargers would gain the same amount or even more hp into the xb witt cheaper or equal results on cash.

the regular mini is 115hp, and at its weight has slightly less horsepower per pound than a scion XA (dunno about XB, it would be close)

the mini cooper S is supercharged and has liek 160hp, way more hp per pound than the XA or XB

better rear suspension design and lower center of gravity too. in performance terms its better in almost every way except absolute weight.

Here's a comparison of the two from Edmunds.com. The xB stacks up pretty well:

http://scion.edmunds.com/products/nvc/scion/VehicleComparison;jsessionid=AL2Tm1w2zlS611tCazXQoVzikwqQ2PUWUwDoJEgKrDQv54TLW2VS!486482776!174352299!7001!7002?basestyleid=100257487&styleid=100330896&refid=&maxvehicles=5&op=3&tab=measurements

Ooops, didn't see it was regarding the S, I compared it to the base model...

Sorry about the looooooong link too. :roll:

Sorry guys, the standard cooper would kill either scion (point would be more accurate if both vehicles were driven by one driver)... don't even bother with the S or JCW

Look at your rear "old school" axles... it's a no go and I wouldn't suggest you try. But if you think you can...
Come up to Willow Springs on Sunday March 28th for some time trials held by http://touringcarclub.com/

If you decide to come out, use the registration code TEAMMIGHTYMINIZ for a discount.

We will be running a Super Tuner MCS against a Subaru STi and we will be WINNING.

More info Here (http://www.teammightyminiz.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=802)
http://m7tuning.com/wrxvsmini.jpg

I know jackmott has done an open-track day with his xA …

Although I understand that an independant rear suspension is superior handling wise, there have been quite a few rear beam-axle cars that clean up on autocross and road racing tracks. 1992-1994 Nissan Sentra SE-R anyone? The Maxima also uitilizes (utilized?) a rear beam. It's not impossible to make a car with such a suspension handle well.

im juss a kid a was juss learnin my hw about how good the box could be. I was hopin if this car could underdog big contenders, but so far no hope. I f i waited for another year would theree be enough upgrades to surpass any other car.

im juss a kid a was juss learnin my hw about how good the box could be. I was hopin if this car could underdog big contenders, but so far no hope. I f i waited for another year would theree be enough upgrades to surpass any other car.

any other car?

with enough ingenuity you could do that NOW. But we are talking real scion project type stuff. Like building your own double wishbone suspension, putting a v8 inside the hatch =)

look at my autocross results I posted in the corner carvers section.

you don't need to spend money to beat better cars, just get good at driving and get some good tires.

this doesn't apply to drag racing so much, short of an engine swap the scions aren't going to be too good at that, and driver skill will not buy you much drag racing relativel slow cars.

nothing radical like engine swaps n tearin the box appart.

I meant like since its a jap import, its exposed to being a scene wear its full of aftermarket parts everywhere.

So far Im hearin that the s/c or t/c cant give any more power since compression on the box is already high as it is. Plus its a _____ to install any charger since its placed behind the engine. This is stuff ive been hearin off these forums so i dont know if any of is true.

How good would a drop n pullin off a chop top xb lower its center of gravity.

I know the xbs engine was never meant to pull off power, but has anyone even passed 130 hp for the love god.

I was really interested in this car but now im thinkin id juss rather pick sum old driftin 80's car for cheap n its more satisfying.

someone here, prove me this car is good, dont give me this reliabilty crap or its cruisin capability, its saves gas, etc.....

is it a crap car or not?

well, considering that the mini (base) is a few thousand more, with the extra cash, I would think it would be possible to beat it...

and then what do you guys think, a supercharged xA vs. a mini S ??? probably advantage mini S...

All this talk about high compression come on people what do you think bmw did with the coopers to get the compression down for the s my guess would be thicker head gasket.It would lower compression probable the same thing you would have to do with the scion.Then it's box wins

deck plate....very easily get 9to1 or 8to1 compression....then boost

Ain't happening.

You'd need more than what you're imagining.

think Outside of the box.

Read some mini Stats...

Ranking in #1 in MANY MANY MANY lists, Beating Porsches in slalom, on the track, in the canyons.

throw an LSD in a MINI or MINI S and BAM .
Come out and hang with us one day and find out...
Or come to our time trail event in ButtonWillow on the 28th.

We'll have several coopers and other cars out there... Walk the walk. Come see what you're contemplating.

I love the Scion's, but scion vs mini....

then of course you'd need equally matched drivers... or someone with a fat ego!

Is it true the box handles like a porche?

I agree the mini is cool, but I have a hard time believing that if you spent that much on a mini, then if you bought an xA and spent the excess on some serious mods, that you couldn't match them...

$13k for an xA
$18k for a Mini

$5k in mods on an xA stilll will not allow for a win... especially in a canyon...

But if you're up for the challenge... say the word... we're ready!

We also have a Turbo Cooper :wink:


Remeber, your xA rear end won't be able to handle the corners as well as the rear of a mini.

It's a pointless arguement.

What kinda numbers is the turbo cooper puting out.Also working for bmw i know the coopers handle like there on rails but also know they are not with out there flaws also so considering that the scions are new and after market manufactures are planing or putting together super chargers and turbo set ups where do you think this discussion will be like in say five years.I doubt the xb or xa could take a copper or s in the twistys but what about other areas.

eh, on a number of road courses you could beat the mini just by putting out a bunch more power, which 5k could do.

you could also just show up on far stickier and larger rubber and win.

but I would agree, that matched closely in terms of tire and power, it would be quite a science project to get the Scion to match the mini.

if any of your mini team is in texas, id be happy to meet them at Texas World Speedway or a Houston Autocross.



$13k for an xA
$18k for a Mini

$5k in mods on an xA stilll will not allow for a win... especially in a canyon...

But if you're up for the challenge... say the word... we're ready!

We also have a Turbo Cooper :wink:


Remeber, your xA rear end won't be able to handle the corners as well as the rear of a mini.

It's a pointless arguement.

I raced a mini (not the S), and won on the freeway, and I'm in a stock xB ? And there was a good curve involved...

Sorry guys, the standard cooper would kill either scion (point would be more accurate if both vehicles were driven by one driver)... don't even bother with the S or JCW

Look at your rear "old school" axles... it's a no go and I wouldn't suggest you try. But if you think you can...
Come up to Willow Springs on Sunday March 28th for some time trials held by http://touringcarclub.com/

If you decide to come out, use the registration code TEAMMIGHTYMINIZ for a discount.

We will be running a Super Tuner MCS against a Subaru STi and we will be WINNING.

More info Here (http://www.teammightyminiz.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=802)
http://m7tuning.com/wrxvsmini.jpg

Mr.Badfish "Mike" is gonna KILL!


At least that's who I'm rootin' fer. :lol:


Cooper S vs STI Challenge is gonna rock!

The suspension and build of the Coopers is as if BMW took a 3 class and squashed it, and imagine being able to push 90 in 3rd.

If I'm pushing my xB to the floor......it doesn't come out of 3rd until 100mph.

I assume by 3rd you mean "gear".......and 90 you mean "mph"........if not...............I'll withdraw from the conversation now. :P

KiL

Finally sum ppl are on my side. Well at least sum. In 5 yrs maybe things might change. You never know if toyota actually sees potential in this car and actually redesign it to go against the cooper,but thats just a dream.

I juss hope that 5 thou of upgrades could be enough to at least takedown the coop in hp wise.

I raced a mini (not the S), and won on the freeway, and I'm in a stock xB ? And there was a good curve involved...

and I beat a number of corvettes and an m5 on a road course in my scion.

because they weren't very skilled drivers.

that doesn't imply much about the car =)

my mom has a Mini with an automatic trans and my stock xB 5 speed kills it. 8)

hahah you all are funny.

Did the Mini driver know you were racing?

The automatic is fast if driven right

90 in 3rd??? Try second. :wink:


Now, a skilled driver in either... can rule vs an unskilled driver.

Example... PISTON - Jason... kills in his xB in the canyons...

Would like to see him sharpen up on the track... could be fun.




the Scion was not intended to match a cooper... it was built to introduce a younder market to Toyota... affordable fun. Performance was barely considered. Look at the lifestyle that follows the "Scions" in Japan... it's more about style.

I wouldn't discount the potential of the scion... but it would take a lot of work to get it up against a cooper... start at the ground and compare up from there.
Mini Suspension is made to handle tight, low center of gravity, etc. The frame, 4 corners, front mount, low center of gravity. Safety, high marks, front driver/passenger, side impact, and A pillar airbags.. safety side impact braces.
A lot of high ticket items packaged in a low cost product..

Now, compare the Cooper S then the JCW

These are just factory models. The aftermarket has some amazing power and handling options... new supercharger giving the S nearly 300hp or more. A Turbo option that increases the cooper from 115 to 160 - 200 hp

Suspension options that convert it from a go cart on rails into a magnetized slot car.

Titanium Ceramic brakes to match stopping power to go power.

Of course computerized nitrous.

Fuel systems, Ignition options etc...

I'll ignore the intakes and exhausts... all proclaim high numbers (in any brand) but fail to prove the high numbers.




The M7 Mini is going to kill the STi

I hate to tell you, but the Mini is the one who started it, but hey a jackass can drive any car http://www.scionlife.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif...
To compare a Mini S, to any scion would have to be, a Scion with a supercharger and tuned. Or else were back to apples and oranges.

i agree.

Until we finally see a fully well tuned xb/xa, we can't really compare to the cooper s.

has anyone seen a mini actually go out the door for MSRP? j/c, as I honestly never have...

as for what the bB and ist were created for? ay, the Mini was originally created to catch the nostalgia for what was a cheap passenger car that became a race car...

back in the day everyone thought the idea of it becoming a race car was absolutely absurd until someone *cough* John Cooper *cough* had it become a race car.. hrm, where have I seen that? :roll:

these are still new cars, give it a chance and we'll see what we can do in a year or two.. the original cooper came out with 60-80 hp if I remember correctly and weighs in at 1800? lbs... as opposed to our stock xA at 2300... with 108, not a bad start for the price

we have a start, and no dampening on anyone's part is going to stop us from trying... so let us try and we'll see where we are when I spend $5k on my ride...

Is weight an issue?

Want to compete against a mini?
SHED as much useless weight as possible
Rebuild the rear end
Race suspension
Bigger brakes (lose the drums in back when rebuilding the rear0
install premium aerodynamic pieces with proven use, not some crappy lunchbox wing and bumper trim
Lightweight wheels
Sticky Competition tires
Get used to PREMIUM Gasoline
Octane boost
Supercharger or Turbo Charge
block and cylinder strengthening
Rebuild the head
Ignition upgrades


If anyone is interested in and has the $$ I can have my crew Spice up that xA With some INCREDIBLE Power.




Lastly Throw on some TRD Decals We all know those add 10hp per application. :lol:

how big is the eurotuner scene on aftermarket parts compared to jp tuner scene?

im not really familiar with the bimmer n vws.

the scene is big... but expensive, so you will not see a lot... but when you do.... It's Hot

Check out This place (http://www.socaleuro.com)

now that I think about it... TeamMightyMinizdo you have older mini's in your crew, and what year Mini do you drive? Maybe you guys would appreciate my 2nd car...

We welcome all Minis and Scions

I drive an 02 MC
I will soon have an 04 MCS

We have one xB on the Team... I would like to expand the scion edge.

I own Scion-Line by the way... but have dedicated more time in TeamMightyMiniZ

what's your 2nd car?

It's a 61 Borgward / Hansa Kombi 1100, size of a old mini, but its a wagon (and German)with fins...

sorry if the pics don't work
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid77/p0372e723eb0d6f8993fe75ec95f54d9e/fb2b4085.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid77/pc48f80a81910446c4b75b8d0020107b2/fb2b4069.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid77/p3dcf3ebef13afc860387618bd4141e18/fb2b40b0.jpg

can't see it... am curious to see it now :lol:

Bring your xB or your little german car out this sunday!

as far as my lil German car... I need a new fuel pump... and to install my headlights...

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/943094c0/bc/Yahoo!+Photo+Album/__sr_/ec3a.jpg?phuXvWABG1jj57yJ
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/943094c0/bc/Yahoo!+Photo+Album/__sr_/abaf.jpg?phuXvWABf_pwv9wY
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/943094c0/bc/Yahoo!+Photo+Album/__sr_/2328.jpg?phGhvWABIJ1WQnOs

has anyone seen crazy body work done to the cooper?

I just jumped camp from the MINI Cooper S to the Scion. Once the throttle drops all the boltons in the world arent bring that Cooper S back!

The Cooper S motor is a completely different animal than the stock Cooper. It had forged crank/rods and different pistons to lower the compression ratio. That said with minor mods you're in the low 14s in the quarter. I paid MSRP. The reliabiliy issues are all true (atleast in my case).

They're both cool little cars with different target markets. I dont think I've ever looked in the performance forum here but I lived in it over on the mini boards. I think these two (three?) can coexist without comparison :)

--
Cheese

EDIT: Whataya know, this post is in the performance forum. I clicked on it on the main page :)

I think most of you miss the point the XB is more fun to drive . Has more room for your pasangers. And looks better in my opinion . Better gas milage by far. So what else do you need. Well power but that takes away from gas milage and reliability . I do not want something sitting in my driveway because I cannot afford gas to drive it.

i know, this car was meant for fun, but wasn't that what the cooper was meant for until mini saw potential to create the S.

maybe toyota might see potential in the xb, maybe call it a xb-s or a xb R or a xb gts etc....

I think most of you miss the point the XB is more fun to drive . Has more room for your pasangers. And looks better in my opinion . Better gas milage by far. So what else do you need. Well power but that takes away from gas milage and reliability . I do not want something sitting in my driveway because I cannot afford gas to drive it.


its more fun to drive because the suspension is worse or because it has less power?

I think most of you miss the point the XB is more fun to drive . Has more room for your pasangers. And looks better in my opinion . Better gas milage by far. So what else do you need. Well power but that takes away from gas milage and reliability . I do not want something sitting in my driveway because I cannot afford gas to drive it.


its more fun to drive because the suspension is worse or because it has less power?

HAHAHA!! :lol: Mini's are great little and I emphasize "little" cars. My sister has one and I've got my xB. The xB is a much more comfortable ride (afterall the mini is just a BMW with different decals, and I don't know of one BMW that is at the peak of comfort).

my mom has a Mini with an automatic trans and my stock xB 5 speed kills it. 8)


dude...you race your mom....honestly, what do you expect

what does comfort mean to you?


I think most of you miss the point the XB is more fun to drive . Has more room for your pasangers. And looks better in my opinion . Better gas milage by far. So what else do you need. Well power but that takes away from gas milage and reliability . I do not want something sitting in my driveway because I cannot afford gas to drive it.


its more fun to drive because the suspension is worse or because it has less power?

HAHAHA!! :lol: Mini's are great little and I emphasize "little" cars. My sister has one and I've got my xB. The xB is a much more comfortable ride (afterall the mini is just a BMW with different decals, and I don't know of one BMW that is at the peak of comfort).

My sister's mini has leather and stuff inside. I like nice "cushy" seats. Here seats are anything but that. They're pretty stiff feeling and don't give much when you go to sit down. There's no real good arm rest in the car, even on the door it's hard to put your arm on that arm rest, though I don't give very big props on the arm rest in the scion.

I have to say that the mini's interior is very nicely done, especially when it comes to the color schemes... Especially that multi colored brown one... And the stiching looks good...

I've driven all 4 MC MCS xA and xB

I think the MC and MCS are more comfortable... the xB is an upright where the MC is a recline...

http://www.kvetch22.com/albums/vehicles/timesleep.jpg

You can guess which one is the stock Scion xB and which one is a 19% reduction pulley MCS.

--
Cheese

you know that Scions could recline too... http://www.scionlife.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_lol.gifhttp://www.scionlife.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_lol.gifhttp://www.scionlife.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

as a taller person
I wish the seat of the scion wasnt 8 feet up in the air

=)

I bet handling would improve noticeably if my 200 pound body was 4 inches lower


you know that Scions could recline too... http://www.scionlife.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_lol.gifhttp://www.scionlife.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_lol.gifhttp://www.scionlife.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

So the mini vs STI race referred to earlier in this thread.

I hear the mini lost

UPDATE: upon further investigation, the mini ended up having to run on crappy street tires because he couldnt locate the toyo race tires he normally uses.

either way, apparently some other guy there in a stock STI got better times than either driver in the challenge

=)

somehow I'm not surprised, those STi's are monsters... same with the lancer EVO's... but better luck next time to the mini guy...

I drive a Polar White xB and my wife has a red Mini with a Union Jack on top. We must have the two most interesting cars in our neighborhood. :lol: I have two children, with a third on the way, and there was no way in hell we were going to get a minivan or gas-guzzling SUV.

Anyhow, having driven both cars, the Mini definitely feels more solid and planted on the road. But, it's very small inside and the front windshield is low and far-forward so that a tall guy like me (6') has to lean forward and down at an intersection to see when the light changes. Still, it's an excellent car in terms of handling.

While the xB may not be as good as the Mini in terms of handling, that doesn't mean it's not great--which it is. I'm still waiting on my sway bars but even without them the xB hardly leans at all when taking off-ramps from the highway at fast speeds. :twisted:

So the mini vs STI race referred to earlier in this thread.

I hear the mini lost

UPDATE: upon further investigation, the mini ended up having to run on crappy street tires because he couldnt locate the toyo race tires he normally uses.

either way, apparently some other guy there in a stock STI got better times than either driver in the challenge

=)

Actually... the STi was far from stock by the time it hit the track.
The MCS did have a delamination problem with it's tires.
The final numbers were only 4/100's of a second apart.
The MCS driver had the tire delaminate just prior to the final run... these were NEW tires. Don't buy Kuhmo.
so he adjusted his driving to prevent an accident.

The MCS motor was pretty much stock. 180hp
The modded STi (which was supposed to remain stock as per the challenge) had nearly 380hp.

So for such a high hp he got a weak time comparatively.

The MCS's best time was 1:37
The STi's best was 1:42 (which was also the final time)

It's one of those things that will go to a re-match.

On the other hand... anyone in SOCAL, xA, have the desire to challenge a MC to the same conditions? Willow Springs... xA vs MC?


I've got the track, the time, the discounts. If this is something we are all interested in, I can get us all a SWEET group discount and possibly more than a segment of time trials... Can we say... car vs car track time... race? Once session dedicated to Scions and Mini's Or if there enough... 2 sessions.... all Scion or all Mini or both.

Lets do this thing

I think me in my modded XA vs a stock cooper on similar tires would be a fun race.

if anyone would be interested in that let me know. just toss me an email

I should also have a track prepped bmw 325i ready shortly that I could maybe bring along as well.


jmott@houston.rr.com

I can take a Cooper S. :)

Andrew

meet us in Cali if you can and want to accept the challenge.

I'm not driving across the entire US for a race i know will be close. :roll:

Andrew

Normal Cooper has 115, S has 163, and the Works has 200hp. All have the 1.6L 4cyl. with more goodies as the list goes up :D

it's not all about listed Hp :wink:


Anyone replace the Scion rear end with something a bit more roadworthy?

it's not all about listed Hp :wink:


Anyone replace the Scion rear end with something a bit more roadworthy?


meet in cali when, where, and what is the cost and who wants to let me crash at their place?\

it's not all about listed Hp :wink:


Anyone replace the Scion rear end with something a bit more roadworthy?

There is a failry well setup 2door ECHO in cali. You can probably find him on the grassroots motorsports forum.

--
Cheese

it's not all about listed Hp :wink:


Anyone replace the Scion rear end with something a bit more roadworthy?


meet in cali when, where, and what is the cost and who wants to let me crash at their place?\

When... Willow Springs Raceway, May 29-30 2004

Cost - 1 Day Time Trial $170
there are more track options but we've been running time trial challenges.

Crash - Essex House 44916 10th Street West, Lancaster, CA 93534
Tel: (805)948-0961


Hope that helps.

sounds like fun, and the price is reasonable.

keep me posted via pm and if I can afford to take that much time off work, AND the BMW is track ready by then, AND I get a friend to help drive one of the cars up, then im in.

so its still a big maybe =)


EDIT: just checked mapquest. 24 hours of driving to get there. no way I can do that :(



it's not all about listed Hp :wink:


Anyone replace the Scion rear end with something a bit more roadworthy?


meet in cali when, where, and what is the cost and who wants to let me crash at their place?\

When... Willow Springs Raceway, May 29-30 2004

Cost - 1 Day Time Trial $170
there are more track options but we've been running time trial challenges.

Crash - Essex House 44916 10th Street West, Lancaster, CA 93534
Tel: (805)948-0961


Hope that helps.

no problem...

I will check to see if I have anyone available to run in Texas.



The Willow Springs thing is still on.... Bring me an xA and we'll make it a party.

Hell, Bring me 30 xA's and 30 xB's and I'll Bring 60 Mini's!

I wanna spectate, my stock xB in automatic isn't very impressive... yet... but I'd love to check it out if its free !

no problem...

I will check to see if I have anyone available to run in Texas.



The Willow Springs thing is still on.... Bring me an xA and we'll make it a party.

Hell, Bring me 30 xA's and 30 xB's and I'll Bring 60 Mini's!


a fellow autocrosser of mine is in texas and has had his at TWS, im sure we will both end up there at the same time eventually. Of interesting note, his stock mini had a similar top speed at the end of the big straight. So it would be close. Ive got a wee bit more power and a wee bit stiffer and lower springs now tho.

my xa hangs with minis at autoX.. just not S's.. thats a corvette killer right here

base cooper. or base convert will be killed by a stock xa or xB. a modded xa/xb will almost not get raped by the 2.