Help me guys. I am stuck in between getting a tC or a G6 coupe. The price would be almost the same considering the new $3000 off G6 and my dad's employee discount incentives. The one main thing I like about the G6 coupe is the Shiftronics or whatever its called. The ability to switch into manual transmission on an automatic transmission car. I been thinking this over for a month now, and I'm gettin closer to gettin a G6. I've been loyal to Toyota as I have been driving a Corolla for about 5 years now. So which one would you guys get? I know coming to a Scion forum, most would say a tC... but why if the price is similar to the G6 coupe with more HP and features?

thanks in advance!

I would say the tC... just based on Toyota/Scion reliability when compared to ANYTHING GM.

eh, I know how you feel, but you did do the same post on a G6 forum, right? I mean it'll even out the results i think

I'm not sure, though, with the tC becoming the new civic and all*puts flamesuit on* and the G6 is a pretty cool car. I just dunno.

yeah if your gonna keep it for more than two years, i would go import as well.

I was sorely dissapointed in the G6. They talked it up like it was going to be the next best sporty coupe out there. It looks like a new version of the grand am. I see it as the next great rental car next to the impala and the malibu.

As much as I have been supportive of the american market, GM is in a harsh predicament, and thier quality is suffering worse each year. Sad to see, but true.

i didnt post this on a G6 forum yet. cuz thats what I think im gonna get. I think.. lol
damn this is a hard decision.

the thing I like about scion is that its still a rarity. especially here in Michigan.

and the reliability issue: yea, thats why I LOVE toyota and honda. but I'm 20 right now and i think in 4-6 years I'll be gettin a new car anyways after I get a permanent job. so I dunno if thats really something I should worry about as much.

if ONLY the scion has the shiftronics. then I'd be ALL IN

realize that it isn't an SMG either (the manumatic int he G6). All those fancy words just mean that instead of moving the stick from D to 3 or 2 or L, you use a button or move a lever. In fact, the tranny is exactly the same as any other automatic tranny. Some people feel it ups the fun factor. . . that's all. But if it were a hydraulically controlled manual transmission (SMG), that would be a different story.

Some people love Grand Ams. . . some hate them. My best friend drove the bejesus out of one. . . lost a timing belt at 30,000 miles. . . the power steering went at 40k, lost the tranny 3 times. . . caught fire once. Lemon or not, I was there for most of this, and it makes me very reluctant to buy anything GM. If I had to go domestic, I'd probably go Ford or Chrysler/Dodge

and the reliability issue: yea, thats why I LOVE toyota and honda. but I'm 20 right now and i think in 4-6 years I'll be gettin a new car anyways after I get a permanent job. so I dunno if thats really something I should worry about as much.
I suspect that in 4-6 yrs, the tC will hold it's value MUCH better than the G6, but I don't know for sure. Right now the tC's seem to be increasing in value as soon as they leave the lot. I don't know about the G6.

There's a reason why GM, Ford and the other American makes are offering huge incentives to buy their cars: they're garbage compared to Asian makes now. Excluding the new Mustang and the Chrysler 300 series, America hasn't put together anything worth a second look in decades (the "new Thunderbird comes to mind, ugh.) Toyota and Nissan will be sweeping the floor with GM leftovers in 5 years.

The G6 is just a re-packaged Grand Am. Destined for oblivion, in spite of the now-forgotten Oprah launch. :yawn:

The Solstice and Sky are the only newcomers that anyone's talking about stateside. Those may be competition for the Honda S2000 and Miata, but not tC. Different demographic altogether. But the Solstice and Sky do look cool. If I had the cash tho, I'd buy a Mustang. :blah:

^^ Oh I have never been totally against Grand Am myself. My GF had one, and other than being boring it was a pretty good car until it ended up under the back of a Ford Ranger :P Only issue was the intake gasket leaking, which a lot of GM V6s are plagued with. But after I replaced it the car wasnt so bad. And I would still personally pick GM over the other american cars. My Saturn is at 170k. I have replaced the alternator and am getting ready to replace the ignition module. Other than that it has been routine maintenance. That one as well as 4 others I know have been extremely reliable. Fords are probably next on my list (way down). And Chrysler has not been able to keep a tranny or rear end togehter in the last 30 years, so I am not impressed with them at all. I have seen WAY too many of them blow a tranny under normal conditions within 3 - 4 years of driving.

But, the quality of all of them is dwindling. And my main point about it being grand am like was that they continue to regurgitate the same designs over and over. Just like the CavaCobaltFire :P

Anyone else notice that the tail lights are the exact same as ours.....scumbags

http://www.xautos.net/f24f4770.jpg

i read somewhere that toyota designed and build the G6 for pontiac. i can't remember where i read it tho...it was a while ago.

from the cars that my friends have driven, it seems like GM is more stable and reliable than the other american cars... although as the years progress, the quality becomes worse and worse.

now you guys are making me wanna get a tC. quick, someone kidnap me and take me to a Scion dealer before I change my mind again

i read somewhere that toyota designed and build the G6 for pontiac. i can't remember where i read it tho...it was a while ago.

you know... that could be VERY true. the G6 coupe looks almost identical to the Camry Solara's tail.

Anyone else notice that the tail lights are the exact same as ours.....scumbags

http://www.xautos.net/f24f4770.jpg

actually, i would call toyota the scumbags here, if you havent noticed, the tC resembles something from like 30 different cars. Oh, and I heard somewhere that pictures of the G6 have been out since around 2002. Just food for thought.

whats the difference between hydraullic and electric transmission?

I say it all depends on how long you keep your car. The G6 will be worth nothing in a few years. But I can see how this is a tough decision though because it does "look" like a nice ride. I normally would have a few negative things to say about the tC, but if you are getting an 06 model, then I'm sure you wont have as many complaints as the 05 tC owners.

I have never owned a pontiac, but based on their reputation and resale, I have to say go with a Toyota.

The only GM cars that I find tempting are the Solcestice and Sky.

I was sorely dissapointed in the G6. They talked it up like it was going to be the next best sporty coupe out there. It looks like a new version of the grand am. I see it as the next great rental car next to the impala and the malibu.

As much as I have been supportive of the american market, GM is in a harsh predicament, and thier quality is suffering worse each year. Sad to see, but true. That's what the G6 is a new version of the Grand Am!!

I can't stand Pontiacs. I think they are the most boring cars on the road and every model almost looks the same. Only the new Solstice is cool. Go with the Scion.

Oh and everybody copies from one another if you have noticed!!!

ChILLaXTodAMaX, have you test driven both vehicles? If not, you should.

I recently test drove the new Cobalt because I was bored and my friend is a Chevy Salesman (he drives a Scion). Boy was I disappointed. Granted it is not the G6 and does cost less, but should make for a fair comparison. The car seemed cheap and overpriced. The interior was hideous and poorly configured. You couldn't adjust the driver's seat with the door closed. Various other parts of the interior caused me great stress in my five minutes behind the wheel. The handling sucked a whole lot. The car has more body roll than my E350 Van. My old '91 Cavalier was a better car than the new Cobalt.

I'm not terribly biased as far as domestics vs. imports. My first two cars were Chevy Cavaliers. I loved them. I drove from New Orleans to Indiana and back in one that was 11 years old with no problems. Nonetheless, I see the tC as far superior to the current gen GM's. In fact, I may go test drive a G6 myself just to compare.

Umm tC all the way. I dont care if you are gonna get a car in 4-5 years..it's all about if you want to spend those years taking your car in for repairs all the time. IF you dont care and want a car that will be in the shop all the time by all means get the G6.

If you want a car that that you will have fun in, have no problems with, for the 4-5 years. Then Get the Scion tC

I had a GM car before and actually still own (should have traded it in :tap: )..and i will never ever buy one again!

the shift tronic is nothing great. its just up and down like a video game and theres lag between the gears when u shift.

Anyone else notice that the tail lights are the exact same as ours.....scumbags

http://www.xautos.net/f24f4770.jpg



AHHH! almost like a 4dr tC. Gm still sucks HA! :rofl:

i believe the tc is a better buy... all these domestics are trying like crazy w/ rebates / employee pricing its all just a cover up for a crappy american car... IMPORT ALL THE WAY

Help me guys. I am stuck in between getting a tC or a G6 coupe. The price would be almost the same considering the new $3000 off G6 and my dad's employee discount incentives. The one main thing I like about the G6 coupe is the Shiftronics or whatever its called. The ability to switch into manual transmission on an automatic transmission car. I been thinking this over for a month now, and I'm gettin closer to gettin a G6. I've been loyal to Toyota as I have been driving a Corolla for about 5 years now. So which one would you guys get? I know coming to a Scion forum, most would say a tC... but why if the price is similar to the G6 coupe with more HP and features?

thanks in advance!


Well, I have to things to say in response to your decision making process...

1) I know you're reading crap on here about "this rattles, that rattles, everything rattles, blah blah blah" but don't let that discourage you. I have had my car for 4 months now and haven't noticed a damn thing wrong with it except for the dud subwoofer I got at installation, but that was resolved in a pretty painless manner. Plus, realize that EVERY new car (G6 is a new model too, is gonna have its share of problems. Just because they haven't been mentioned yet ...or possibly have (??) doesn't mean it's gonna be the "best new sport coupe") and I agree with whoever said it's the Grand Am v2.0 lol

2) Some people have posted here that the tC is a "Chick car"

:eyebrow:

Remind me please... how many MIDDLE AGED WOMEN did Oprah Winfrey give a brand new G6 to? 200? 300? Something like that...
(At least most of the girls/women driving the tC are still in the target age group... At least in the northwest they are..)

I personally would say go with the tC. Yeah they're the same price almost because of the employee discount, but Toyota holds a resale value MUCH better than Pontiac. And depending on the dealership, you may get some kickbacks for "brand loyalty"


Plus, you wouldn't have driven a Toyota for 5 years if it was a P.O.S. right?

With all the similarities to Toyota cars, I had to do a little research on the G6 base parts and found this..

"The all-new 2005 Pontiac G6 is built in Michigan on GM's international Epsilon platform, from parts and ideas that used on the Saab 9-3, Opel Vectra, Chevrolet Malibu sedan and Malibu Maxx wagonette, all introduced over the past two years."
http://www.nctd.com/review-walk.cfm?Vehicle=2005_Pontiac_G6&ReviewID=1630
G6 = 6th generation Grand Am.

Remember Pontiac sold the Vibe which was esentially a Matrix made ugly. Add the Pontiac name badge and you get a Toyota with a resale value $2-3K less than the real thing.

If you're trading the car in 4-5 years anyway, get the TC, for resale value alone. The G6 looks like a great car and probably will hold up just as well as the TC, but the Pontiac stigma reduces its value. It takes a LOT to convince the general public that anything is as good as a Toyota, Honda, or Mercedes.

I own a Mitsubishi, but I plan to run it into the ground. Warranty is more of a factor than resale to me.

Toyota no question...

Couple things, it sounds like you havent driven and compared them. The G6 looks nice, drives like poop. The TC drives and looks nice (could use better seats tho to hold you in tighter).

The G6 was sold at MSRP... people bouht them, GM then said, lets lower ALL GM products with this new employee discount. How do you think those people felt when there 1-2 month old G6 just lost 2k in value because of something GM did? I would never buy any domestic new...

Both Ford and GM constantly do stuff like that and it ruins resale value (esp in the short term) and is the number one reason I would never buy domestic new.

I am currently driving GM car, come from a family that has always had GM cars. It is funny that our family has dubbed GM cars as throw away cars. We have had problems with every single vehicle that we have owned. I making the switch to scion/toyota and recommend if you want more indepth explainations about the problems email me. You will not believe the problems that I have had personally.

Reasons to get a TC over a G6:
1. Better resale value
2. Toyota Reliability
3. Better aftermarket support

whats the difference between hydraullic and electric transmission?

Not sure if I understand your question. . . a true SMG is a real, bonafide manual transmission that is controlled via a computer, usually by hydraulics. Examples: F1, BMW M3, Ferrari, Maserati, Toyota MR2 Spyder

A Shiftronic or manumatic or "sport" shift transmission is EXACTLY the same as any other automatic, except you have the option use a button or a lever to change gears, instead of moving from D to 3 to 2 to L. There is no point to such a tranny, as you can do the same in any auto. . . and the shifts aren't exactly fast either way. You don't even see the increased power to the wheels that you would see with a manual. The only use would be to hold a gear, which you can do in the first place. So the only point would be for added "enjoyment." Examples: G6, Lexus IS300, Porsche Boxster, Dodge Caravan, Dodge Stratus (one of the first to have it offered), Hyundai XG350

But SMG or not, it has been track proven that letting the computer do the work allows for the fastest track times.

AND TO THOSE WHO ARE CRITICIZING GM:

I'm not a fan of GM either, but if you are mocking their quality based on their prices and incentives, you have no idea what you are talking about. They don't have to lower their prices because they are "crap," but rather because they are horrible businessmen.

In fact, GM sells more cars nationwide and globally than Toyota. You could even argue that they are a better company (but I wouldn't go that far, as that is rediculous). The reason why GM has to offer incentives is because they over produce, and inaccurately estimate demand.

How long did you have to wait for your Scion? Odds are, most of you had to wait, or choose only from a hand full available. It's called Toyota JIT (just in time). Only allotting what you need. Doing so, reduces the major cost in sales-- depreciation sitting on a dealer lot. Thus there is never a need for an incentive, beyond competition.

GM on the other hand, never really slows production, and plows through cars throughout the year. When sales unexpectedly go down, they are stuck with TONS of cars on the lot, losing value. The answer? INCENTIVES!!! Thus, buying a GM car right now may yield a very good bargain right now. . . although I personally wouldn't buy one anyway.

g6 has 41 more hp than a tc but 400 more pounds in curb weight so it all even out in a 100lb/10hp ratio the g6 has 8 speakers beating the tc // tc has better mileage // tc has a betterexterior in my opinion G6 has the better interior with my radio control steering wheel and// g6 has shifttronic ( even though it has both transmission its been proven in its auto matic and manual mode each mode is bad in its standards since its not dedicated to transmission. \\ tc has its toyota reliablity and if you plan on selling it in the near future it will be easier sold than the g6

but overall you should get the g6

overall i

sorry for the grammar and spelling mistakes and extras.. was watchin tv and typing at the same time

If anyone reads any type of finacial news, you know that GM, FORD, and DODGE is hurting. I have a buddy who has a brand new silverado, he told me GMAC is going away and being bought out by other companies. Hard to believe they sell more cars and are in the state they are in.

AND TO THOSE WHO ARE CRITICIZING GM:

In fact, GM sells more cars nationwide and globally than Toyota. You could even argue that they are a better company (but I wouldn't go that far, as that is rediculous). The reason why GM has to offer incentives is because they over produce, and inaccurately estimate demand.


Yes GM sells more cars than Toyota. But Toyota is #2 right after GM. And Toyota makes double the profits of both GM and Ford combined. (I read that somewhere). Its QUALITY not QUANITY that is important.

And I am sure the G6 will run years problem free as any new car should. So if you decide to buy the G6, you will be fine. Only concern as everyone is pointing out is resale value. And I would start to worry about the how the G6 will perform at the 100K miles mark. The engine may be fine, but Im sure you will have to fix a ton of other problems which can be costly.

yea. lol damn u guys are good at convincing. I think I am gonna go with a tC cuz the shiftronics thing I can get over. I've wanted a tC from the start. It wasnt until about 2 months ago that I saw it sitting in the testing garage at work and said DAMN that looks nice. i'm goin with my heart!!

and I havent driven either cars yet. thats cuz I'm always so bothered by the sales people barkin at me after I test drive. Most of them wanna make the deal right then and there. I really should take the time to drive it and see how it goes.

one more question though. It seems like some of you guys used to drive imports and are sticking to imports. Is the tC of the same reliability, build, and integrity as the imports you have driven? My family owns a Honda C-RV, Honda Accord, Toyota Corolla, and previously owned a Camry. I know this car comes from a Camry chassis, but does it feel like its made by Toyota and has the reputation of an import?

thanks again for all of your responses!

Scion tC isn't made from a Camry Chasis, rather the engine and tranny is. the platform is from a european toyota design known as the Avensis. I'd say Go tC..u'd be making a better decision....
On a side note about the G6 coupe looking like the solara and the G6 tailights looking like the scion tC's...I wouldn't doubt that toyota has been selling design concepts or parts to GM..they did it with the matrix/vibe...

Go with the Tc. The G6 resale value is gonna be in the toilet just like every other gm midsize car.

oh oops. I was always under the impression that the chassis was the same. i knew the engine was. looks like I learned something new today!

tC would be the better choice here overall because its fast, its lasts, and its going to keep you happy for a long time. The G6 is kinda like something you do once. It has a lot of power, will kick any tC's a$$, and looks damn good but it wont be money well spent. GM makes pretty good cars and while some cars have had problems, I would still feel confident in buying from them again. Ive owned a 99 Grand Am v6 and a 93 Bonneville v6 and both cars ran perfect. They had crazy torque too especially the Bonneville. tC is going to be way more moddable right now (if thats your style) but Im guessing the G6 will have some wicked mods of its own pretty soon if not already. If I was in your shoes I would probably get the G6 if the prices were pretty much the same but seeing as how normally the G6 is more expensive I would choose the tC. But I guess I havent really helped you any. lol

Another reason to go with the tC is that you can build on the tC. Even though the car has only been out for 13 months, already there's lots of after market parts for it. That will only grow. Toyota designed and marketed the car that way. You get a blank canvass when you buy a stock tC. I'm not so sure if the G6 will catch on with the after market as much.

The tC is definately a cool car, and is "the" car to have. The G6 is probably a good car - I've never driven one - but the tC will boost your ego.

Steve

There's a reason why GM, Ford and the other American makes are offering huge incentives to buy their cars: they're garbage compared to Asian makes now. Excluding the new Mustang and the Chrysler 300 series, America hasn't put together anything worth a second look in decades (the "new Thunderbird comes to mind, ugh.) Toyota and Nissan will be sweeping the floor with GM leftovers in 5 years.


No, they are offering huge incentives because they over priced there cars. GM is lowering their prices after the employee discount. And they have that Union thing that sucks all thier money, they spend 5k on each car for health insurance.

The G6 is a pretty nice car, I particularly like the seats as they are very comfy. The new mustang is a big hit, but Ford is still in a lot of trouble becuase they can't manufacture anything. Most Mustangs vary in total size...I have a friend at Saleen who swears he hasn't seen two ford mustange that are the same out of the factory. Chrysler has great engineering...and thats it. BLEEHHHH products, (I will never get a chrysler)

GM and FORD are getting better bit by bit, but becuase thy had so many sales lately the G6 will have terrible resale value. There will be many many many people getting rid of them in 4-6 years.

However if you get a tC that means there will be another one in MI when I am there for School. I did see one in detroit a few days ago though. Ahh, I can still claim to be the only tC in Flint I guess. Bah...Flint...

*reads entire post*eh, I knew this was gonna happen. I say G6.

But go test drive the cars and see what you think.

AND TO THOSE WHO ARE CRITICIZING GM:

In fact, GM sells more cars nationwide and globally than Toyota. You could even argue that they are a better company (but I wouldn't go that far, as that is rediculous). The reason why GM has to offer incentives is because they over produce, and inaccurately estimate demand.


Yes GM sells more cars than Toyota. But Toyota is #2 right after GM. And Toyota makes double the profits of both GM and Ford combined. (I read that somewhere). Its QUALITY not QUANITY that is important.

And I am sure the G6 will run years problem free as any new car should. So if you decide to buy the G6, you will be fine. Only concern as everyone is pointing out is resale value. And I would start to worry about the how the G6 will perform at the 100K miles mark. The engine may be fine, but Im sure you will have to fix a ton of other problems which can be costly.

Of course, and I never said the G6 was better. If you read my entire post, you'd realize that I was trying to say that price and incentives are not a sign of a bad product, but over production. Quality is more relevant than quantity, so Toyota being #2 after GM doesn't mean a thing in your rebuttle. Furthermore, if Toyota is more profitable than the other other companies, that means less consumer surplus (versus producer surplus) is being passed on to the consumer. . . which hurts your argument. More simply put, the more profitable a company, the more ripped off their customers are.

But personally I think the tC is an overall better car, quality wise. However, you would be foolosh to completely redicule GM, just because it offers incentives. In fact, the G6 is a great bargain right now. However, for resale purposes and quality, I'd still go Toyota over GM.

I'd have to say both cars are equal. Okay, tC is a toyota, but common...it's not flagship. You give the tC far too much credit. The G6 seems to fail a bit from what it seems like GM wants to accomplish, but it's still a decent car. Looks sporty. Though if you take a look at the ownership cost over a 5 year period the G6 will cost you 5grand more to own than the tc.

http://www.intellichoice.com/reports/comparator/v2/comparison-fs?VEHICLE_NMB1=15821&VEHICLE_NMB2=15201&VEHICLE_NMB3=16285&addColNbr=0&complexYear=0&make=0&model=0&trim=0

STORY TELLING TIME

i met this girl who had an american car, costed X amount(i forgot the car and value), few years down the road, perfect car! ran good and all, but she got into an accident, and she still owes money on the car, the insurance co only want to pay less than the amount she owes due to the car value. no gap insurance neither :P so she got mad and was trying to get a scion( i actually met her at the scion dealership as i was picking up my tC so this story kinda went from 1 side of my ear to the other :lol:), but they said she gotta pay the rest of her other car in order for her to finance the scion she wants. So she got jewed and screwed for gettin an american car. Btw did i mention not all american cars are shizzy cars? she just got screwed by the depreciation of the car cuz it's a domestic car

I would suggest a tC. My recommendation is by far leaning towards the tC. My brother used to work for Sitel a GM Customer Service Company for people with complaints about warranty not being honoredd for GM products (automotive) when they should be. To get to the point, don't expect to get good support from GM unless you are willing to have GM dealerships to service your vehicle. Loyalty to GM via dealership service gives you a little help from GM but not much! My mom has a 02 Cadillac Deville and all 4 power windows had to be replaced twice because the regulator failed. There was an oil leak that was mentioned several times during routine maintenance and nothing was done. (Dealer did all the service). They put in the wrong oil weight. a $40,000+ vehicle that has these kind of problems says it all. Toyota has an excellent service rating. That's why I bought a tC instead of the Cobalt.

You may be getting more power with the g6...but the tC still hits 0-60 a second faster and is .6 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile. Also, i don't know what kind of g6 is priced at 20k (u said 3k off for discount...which puts it at 17k same as tC), but that must be barebone nothing in it. Get a tC, it rides smoother, accelerates faster, but the g6 does handle better (nothing to worry, just get the TRD lowering springs and hotchiks front/rear sway bars and the tC will destroy it). Also the tC should keep its value much more than the G6 and it will last longer (toyota = 10-15 year life expectancy...gm = 3-5 years). So for less money, you get more performance, more options, more value...You do the math.


edit : And another thing....a 3.5L v6 only putting out 200hp....thats weak...very very very weak...nissan hit the 300hp mark on a 3.5L 2 years ago. German > Japanese > American. End of story.

I'm always in my friend's G6. He got it about a month ago(part of that employee discount for everyone deal), and with the options he got, the car came out to be almost 25k (w/ taxes, tags, etc...) It drives nice, has a somewhat sporty feel to it. But having driven both cars a good number of times, I would never even think of getting the G6 over the tC. My old car was a 97 stratus, one of the first cars to use that manumatic shifting (dodge calls it Autostick). I've ripped apart my engine and tranny several times, not one difference between a regular auto and the autostick. It's simply a different gear selector lever mated to a slightly modified TCM. The auto tranny is still sucking up about 15% of your crank HP, and the shifts are slightly delayed. For proof that the autostick does nothing, we took it to the track and ran several times mixing up regular shifting with manual shifting. The automatic times were always marginally faster than when I manually shifted. The only time I find it useful is when I'm on the parkway and want to pass someone, I just tap the lever to the left and the car pops into 3rd, avoiding the delayed kickdown. But you can do that on any auto by moving the gear lever into 3.

dodge intrepid... same thing, died on me the first day i got it -_-

currently in the junk yard cuz 3 kids stole a car and was running from a cop chase... hit a pump and flew on to my car... i'll show 1 picture of it only because it's off topic
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~jcl34/car/8.jpg
n e way, yeah ditto to what he said about the tranny, it stinks, u can't even rev the engine high or the o2 sensor will be have problems

Wow,

You pic is off topic, but you might have to explain that one in further detail.

Yeah, the 02 senser comment makes little sense

Yet again I'm forced to post and explain how freakin' sick I am of ignorant little boys who say things like "GM's quality gets worse every year" and "if you plan on keeping it more than 5 years, go IMPORT." Yeah, I called each and every one of you an ignorant little boy (or girl). GM's (and Chrysler's) quality has been steadily IMPROVING for each of the last 5 years. Car and Driver called the interior of the GTO the "best ever." Buick and Cadillac are rated higher in initial quality and long-term reliability by J.D. Power and Assoc. than BMW or Volkswagen. The numbers all tell a far different story than you guys do with your blind "American cars suck" attitude. But hey, those American cars just suck. You morons. How about we just look at "cars" instead of trying to stereotype them based on the location of the head office.

Regarding the original post, I think that it's a tough dilemma. I looked at the G6 sedan before I bought my tC (but couldn't afford it) and the exterior is a bit boring, but the interior is fabulous and very well put-together. The fit and finish were impressive and I do love the shiftronic shifter. I wish that the tC were available with that option. To the guy who said it looks like the next version of the Grand Am... that's because it IS you genius. It just happens to be on an all-new platform and shares zero parts with its ancestor.

My feeling is, if you can get the G6 for the same money, get the G6. You're getting a 210 horsepower V6 that gets almost the same gas mileage as our 160hp 4 cylinder. You're getting something that not everyone has yet. You can get things that the tC doesn't even offer, like leather seats. You can still get a great sunroof in the HUGE 4-panel sunroof. The cars are in two entirely different classes. And this advice is coming from a VERY happy tC owner, so take it for what it is.

There's a reason why GM, Ford and the other American makes are offering huge incentives to buy their cars: they're garbage compared to Asian makes now. Excluding the new Mustang and the Chrysler 300 series, America hasn't put together anything worth a second look in decades (the "new Thunderbird comes to mind, ugh.) Toyota and Nissan will be sweeping the floor with GM leftovers in 5 years.


No, they are offering huge incentives because they over priced there cars. GM is lowering their prices after the employee discount. And they have that Union thing that sucks all thier money, they spend 5k on each car for health insurance.

The G6 is a pretty nice car, I particularly like the seats as they are very comfy. The new mustang is a big hit, but Ford is still in a lot of trouble becuase they can't manufacture anything. Most Mustangs vary in total size...I have a friend at Saleen who swears he hasn't seen two ford mustange that are the same out of the factory. Chrysler has great engineering...and thats it. BLEEHHHH products, (I will never get a chrysler)

GM and FORD are getting better bit by bit, but becuase thy had so many sales lately the G6 will have terrible resale value. There will be many many many people getting rid of them in 4-6 years.

However if you get a tC that means there will be another one in MI when I am there for School. I did see one in detroit a few days ago though. Ahh, I can still claim to be the only tC in Flint I guess. Bah...Flint...

I sit (not stand) corrected in my xB: take a look at this article. It's right on with your comments about overpricing. :doh: Btw, tC would've been my choice for a coupe when shopping for new car.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/02/automobiles/02auto.html?ex=1123732800&en=21fd2a454ec47719&ei=5070&emc=eta1

And, this one about MSRP and sticker pricing from Bloomberg today:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=email_us&refer=&sid=a273yfETDP9I

Who am I?

I am a car company that rebadges my vehicles and changes the fascia and markets them under 1000000 different makes.

If you answered GM you are correct.

The last time we mingled GM and Toyota we got the Pontiac Vibe and the Toyota Matrix.

Yet again I'm forced to post and explain how freakin' sick I am of ignorant little boys who say things like "GM's quality gets worse every year" and "if you plan on keeping it more than 5 years, go IMPORT." Yeah, I called each and every one of you an ignorant little boy (or girl). GM's (and Chrysler's) quality has been steadily IMPROVING for each of the last 5 years. Car and Driver called the interior of the GTO the "best ever." Buick and Cadillac are rated higher in initial quality and long-term reliability by J.D. Power and Assoc. than BMW or Volkswagen. The numbers all tell a far different story than you guys do with your blind "American cars suck" attitude. But hey, those American cars just suck. You morons. How about we just look at "cars" instead of trying to stereotype them based on the location of the head office.

Regarding the original post, I think that it's a tough dilemma. I looked at the G6 sedan before I bought my tC (but couldn't afford it) and the exterior is a bit boring, but the interior is fabulous and very well put-together. The fit and finish were impressive and I do love the shiftronic shifter. I wish that the tC were available with that option. To the guy who said it looks like the next version of the Grand Am... that's because it IS you genius. It just happens to be on an all-new platform and shares zero parts with its ancestor.

My feeling is, if you can get the G6 for the same money, get the G6. You're getting a 210 horsepower V6 that gets almost the same gas mileage as our 160hp 4 cylinder. You're getting something that not everyone has yet. You can get things that the tC doesn't even offer, like leather seats. You can still get a great sunroof in the HUGE 4-panel sunroof. The cars are in two entirely different classes. And this advice is coming from a VERY happy tC owner, so take it for what it is.


Wow, whos the little kid now temper boy??

I never said that it was questionable it was the next Grand Am "you genius". No sh!t is the next one. My complaint is that they make nothing new, they continue to remake the styles they have had out forever. And it is killing them. If you dont believe me read up on the copanies predicament right now.

Wow, a 210 HP v6 that our 160 HP 4 banger can keep up with, if not outrun. Very impressive huh?? That extra HP does nothing but help propel the heavier car. 4 cyl and 8 cyl typically tend to be more reliable than a V6 (at least out of all the ones I have every seen or worked on), so exactly what will you gain? And from my dealer and practically every other one I have heard about , you can order the Katzkin leather as well.

And sorry, but I base my quality comments on mine and others experiences both driving AND working on these cars, not on magazine articles and JD Power.

I also do not like stereotyping by country, and would buy american in a heartbeat if the product I wanted was offered in the same quality. I am all for supporting our economy instead of others. I also own a saturn, which, depending on the tC has been the most reliable car i have every had and worked on besides a 1978 Corolla with over 300,000 miles on the original engine.

You make some valid points, but show your maturity when the name calling starts.

^^^

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo TAKE THAT!!! hahaha

But... tC is better. : P

Hardcore tC-ites if I ever saw any.

Also, to the guy who said 210 horses to a 3.5 is weak, can you try to not use the company that makes the BEST V6's around? thats like comparing Winblows to Linux, its stupid and redundant because you already know which one is better.

Also, I'd trust JD Power and the magazines more because the odds that they'll be biased(like just about everyone here has been) is slim to none.

The last GM products I've been in, the quality was pretty good, the thing was all around good, except for the gas mileage(but it was a TrailBlazer, so thats understandable). Point is, dont go off judging a book by its cover, or going on a tangeant because you drive the stupid civic...excuse me, tC.

And yes, I'll say it once again, I'd get the G6, because, i dont know about where you are, but here, everyone and their mom owns a tC. and I'd love to be able to drive around the corner from my house and not be have to see a civic, i mean, tC, sorry, its so hard to tell the difference..

whatever you do, ditch the shifttronic and get a stick! or just get a tC in stick and that'll solve all your problems!

If it's anything to think about... my first car I purchased was a 2002 Pontiac Grand Am... brand new. I owned the car for 18 months, and it had 21,000 miles on it when I sold it. In 18 months, I was in the shop 18 times for NON-regular maintenance work. It was a different thing falling apart every month. Just thought I'd give you some information on a personal experience...

...but here, everyone and their mom owns a tC.

http://www.bumwine.com/aolim/kip_burn.gif
"Your mom owns a tC!"

:silly:

having had a sunfire for 8 years i can attest to the durability of the pontiac brand. i rode that car hard and it just kept going(2.2L). I personally don't like the styling of the G6. looks like a neon from the back. i can recognize a tC from the back at a distance. if you're worried about durability, don't be. either will treat you right. if you're looking for a stick get a stick though. don't get a "new, cooler hybrid" tranny. the more complicated you make an automatic transmission, the quicker it'll tear up usually. more parts, more to go wrong. follow the KISS rule. it almost always is the best advice.

The number of them on the road is very relative to location though. I see more G6s than I can stand to see here. Three in my lot alone at work. And god knows how many when I am driving home. I see maybe 1 or 2 tCs a week at MOST here in the twin cities, they are definitely more rare here than a G6, at least that I have seen. G6s have already become just like all the other Grand Ams.. tons of them showing up everywhere.

JD Powers is ok and all, but I am not going to trust their short tests and IQS over what I see and hear from people that spend their days under the hoods of these cars.

Dont get me wrong, I am not bashing any of the cars, just stating what I have seen. If GM comes out with something that doesnt look like the average run of the mill grand am, and I start hearing fewer nightmare stories from their owners, I would be all for them. Like I said, I would love to help promote our economy rather than everyone elses. And if I were buying a truck right now, you can be damn sure it would be a Chevy. I dont like the looks or poor electrical design I have worked with in Ford trucks, and certainly dont feel like buying a new tranny for a dodge.. not to mention that I think Chevy has, does and probably always will make the best looking trucks hands down .... but that is just me.

I think the shiftronic is a piece of crap.

If I were to look for something like that would be only in a BMW M3, M5, or M6...

But who has money like that... haha.....

...but here, everyone and their mom owns a tC.

http://www.bumwine.com/aolim/kip_burn.gif
"Your mom owns a tC!"

:silly:

haha, no, my mom drives a BMW

...but here, everyone and their mom owns a tC.

http://www.bumwine.com/aolim/kip_burn.gif
"Your mom owns a tC!"

:silly:

That is so great! :rofl: :rofl: BOW TO YOUR SENSAY!!!!

Yet again I'm forced to post and explain how freakin' sick I am of ignorant little boys who say things like "GM's quality gets worse every year" and "if you plan on keeping it more than 5 years, go IMPORT." Yeah, I called each and every one of you an ignorant little boy (or girl). GM's (and Chrysler's) quality has been steadily IMPROVING for each of the last 5 years. Car and Driver called the interior of the GTO the "best ever." Buick and Cadillac are rated higher in initial quality and long-term reliability by J.D. Power and Assoc. than BMW or Volkswagen. The numbers all tell a far different story than you guys do with your blind "American cars suck" attitude. But hey, those American cars just suck. You morons. How about we just look at "cars" instead of trying to stereotype them based on the location of the head office.

Regarding the original post, I think that it's a tough dilemma. I looked at the G6 sedan before I bought my tC (but couldn't afford it) and the exterior is a bit boring, but the interior is fabulous and very well put-together. The fit and finish were impressive and I do love the shiftronic shifter. I wish that the tC were available with that option. To the guy who said it looks like the next version of the Grand Am... that's because it IS you genius. It just happens to be on an all-new platform and shares zero parts with its ancestor.

My feeling is, if you can get the G6 for the same money, get the G6. You're getting a 210 horsepower V6 that gets almost the same gas mileage as our 160hp 4 cylinder. You're getting something that not everyone has yet. You can get things that the tC doesn't even offer, like leather seats. You can still get a great sunroof in the HUGE 4-panel sunroof. The cars are in two entirely different classes. And this advice is coming from a VERY happy tC owner, so take it for what it is.


Wow, whos the little kid now temper boy??

I never said that it was questionable it was the next Grand Am "you genius". No sh!t is the next one. My complaint is that they make nothing new, they continue to remake the styles they have had out forever. And it is killing them. If you dont believe me read up on the copanies predicament right now.

Wow, a 210 HP v6 that our 160 HP 4 banger can keep up with, if not outrun. Very impressive huh?? That extra HP does nothing but help propel the heavier car. 4 cyl and 8 cyl typically tend to be more reliable than a V6 (at least out of all the ones I have every seen or worked on), so exactly what will you gain? And from my dealer and practically every other one I have heard about , you can order the Katzkin leather as well.

And sorry, but I base my quality comments on mine and others experiences both driving AND working on these cars, not on magazine articles and JD Power.

I also do not like stereotyping by country, and would buy american in a heartbeat if the product I wanted was offered in the same quality. I am all for supporting our economy instead of others. I also own a saturn, which, depending on the tC has been the most reliable car i have every had and worked on besides a 1978 Corolla with over 300,000 miles on the original engine.

You make some valid points, but show your maturity when the name calling starts.

You can base your quality statements on your experience and on other's experience all you want, but that doesn't give it any sort of validity. JD Power uses statistically valid research techniques to determine their numbers, they're slightly more credible than your simple anecdotal evidence. I can provide anecdotal evidence to prove that Toyota sucks based on my two friends who've had problems with relatively new cars, but that doesn't mean that Toytoa actually sucks. The stats show otherwise, so that's why JD Power is such a good tool. The magazine writers are also in a slightly better place to comment on the quality of a car. They have the training in both writing and automotive technology and business to make educated comments without saying things like "American cars suck."

You can base your quality statements on your experience and on other's experience all you want, but that doesn't give it any sort of validity. JD Power uses statistically valid research techniques to determine their numbers, they're slightly more credible than your simple anecdotal evidence. I can provide anecdotal evidence to prove that Toyota sucks based on my two friends who've had problems with relatively new cars, but that doesn't mean that Toytoa actually sucks. The stats show otherwise, so that's why JD Power is such a good tool. The magazine writers are also in a slightly better place to comment on the quality of a car. They have the training in both writing and automotive technology and business to make educated comments without saying things like "American cars suck."

Yeah, an initial quality survey is real valid. That tells if the car sucks the first few months after it is released, NOTHING more. Basically if it has issues straight off the line. And even better, they lump every complaint together. So "the gas mileage sucks" counts agains the H2. I dont exactly call that valid research. And I also dont use comments like "American Cars Suck", so point that at whoever said it. My background in engineering includes training in PROPER scientific testing, statistical sampling and product development and testing.. oh and since you mention it too, technical writing. So please do not even attempt to group me in some idiot category because you are wasting your breath. I dont claim to be the car testing expert, but the data I have seen come from JD is not exactly proper statistical research in the least. If it were it would take more than a few months to determing the "quality" of the new cars out. Their ratings are great for first impressions and relative build quality in comparison to other vehicles.

My anecdotal evidence stretches a bit further than a few cars. I know one shop in particular (one mechanic at that) that has probably replaced 20 - 30 trannies in chryslers under 5 years old in the past couple of years. This is a shop run by one person, so compared to overall throughput that is not very good. And to a go a bit deeper than that, I have personally seen how some of these destroy themselves, and spoken and know some of the tranny rebuilders that fix them, and they can all tell you they are simply not built worth a damn. That is the type of evidence I go by, not so and so had this problem with their car. I have fixed a number of electrical issues in Fords that simply baffle me regarding why any engineer (even a novice one) would have designed it that way... and my engineering degree is in electronics, so again, not anecdotal evidence. I dont base my opinions off of guesses. If I speak one, I most likely have a very good reason for having that opinion based on some valid experience. I dont claim to be an expert or anything close, but I dont just make up reasons to hate things either. And again I say, I have nothing against american cars in general. So attack someone else.

Just FYI, the new GTO was not designed by GM at all. Holden who builds cars for GM out of Australia, who also built the original GTO, builds the new one. They actually never stopped building the sister car to the GTO. Pontiac just stopped ordering them. The cars that GM seems to get good marks on are typically NOT built in their plants, with the exception of the Corvettes.

I would be less likely to buy a new car from Pontiac than I would buying a new car from Toyota. By "new" I mean a newly designed car (like the tC and G6).

Really, it's whatever you want. Just because I personally wouldn't buy one doesn't mean they are awful. They haven't been out long enough to know how they are going to hold their value, etc. HOWEVER, Forbes just ranked the tC as one of the top 10 cars to retain its value right now, so that's something to think about when FORBES says this car is going to hold it's value.

The JD Power rankings can be skewed. Scion's quality rating with JD Power is not as good as Toyota's, but it's mainly from people complaining about squeaks and gas mileage. I don't see how you can score everything equally and claim your ratings are valid when you score 500 squeaks the same as 500 blown head gaskets. Just doesn't really put the car on equal footing. However, since you want to harp on JD Power, the Scion tC won "Best Sporty Car" for 2005, and I didn't see the G6 on any of the lists. The only GM's that won were Caddy's and Buicks.

Oh, and I will say I am liking the GTO more and more... if they could start designing it away from the standard Grand Am looks as well. The powerplant is amazing! For a larger car with a sporty feel it seems to be pretty nice.

I can vouch for that. The A604 41TE transmission that is used in almost all of chrysler's FWD vehicles is extremely weak. There have been over 40 TSBs and recalls on that particular transmission. It's been giving Chrysler problems for many years now.

Oh, and I will say I am liking the GTO more and more... if they could start designing it away from the standard Grand Am looks as well. The powerplant is amazing! For a larger car with a sporty feel it seems to be pretty nice.

From my understanding, the Holden Monero, which was the GTO sister car in the 60s, has been built and designed all these years for sale in Australia. What the GTO looks like now, is what the Monero evolved into. I admit it does look plain, but for what it is, it's an excellent "muscle car" for the money.

hmm. it seems like depending on if your lucky or not, domestic cars could last you forever or last you a year. The G6 coupe doesnt come with the 4 panel panoramic sunroof, which I was really disappointed about, but I guess it's because theres no room for it up there.

I'm more and more liking a Scion because as long as I get over the Shiftronics thing, which you guys are telling me its no good, then I would want a Scion. The interior of a G6 is stunning and I'd say that other than the radio head unit, it looks better than the tC overall. The exterior, the G6 coupe looks like a twist of the new Eclipse and Camry Solara. It does look a lot longer than the Scion. One thing that bugs me a lil is the length of the Scion. if you look at it at a certain angle, it looks as small as one of those old 92 Civic hatchbacks.

rawr215, I HOPE that you weren't in your car when it got totaled like that.. YIKES

G6!!! (just to be different)

Ok, I'll get hammered for this, but definitely test drive each car, and decide from their. the "resale value" thing doesn't mean squat, as the domestics get a bad rap for that b/c the resale is based off of MSRP, not actual selling cost of the car. so in the past when a domestic was worth 3k (or whatever) less than an import that didn't take into account the 3k incentive that the buyer got at signing. And actually, I think that with the GM version of "pure pricng" I think that the resale value will be pretty good based on other models which did not have to offer any incentives to be sold.

as for the actual differences between the two cars, that should be noticeable when you drive each. yes the G6 has 200hp, but also has 225lb torque, which is nice. it also has quite a bit more room (I think, too lazy to look up the details), but isn't a hatch so you'll lose utility of the hatch.

basically its a different car, and if you like one better than the other, go for it.

^^ you wont notice that torque as much as you think with the weight difference, the tC is about .6 sec faster in the 1/4 mile. The G6 runs the 1/4 in 16.2 and 0-60 in 8 sec. The tC also slightly beats in on the skidpad as well.

I think the G6 is a fine car. It was not available when I bought my car, but if it was, I'd take a look at it. GM's cars have vastly improved and can be had for a good price.

Oh, about shiftronic. After a few months, you won't touch it often if any at all. Most people just leave it in auto.