:yawn:

I'm curious to find out what oldman thinks of this one....

I'm curious to find out what oldman thinks of this one....

Here is what Oldman thinks. LOL :rofl :silly: Apparently it is a great way to Bork your engine in the long term. :(

http://www.clubsciontc.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3111&highlight=underdrive+pulley

17whp gains? something is fishy

Oh shiznit! I almost bought the NST pulley but when I found out it might take power from my A/C I was like screw that! So how about this?

hey uhh... that tc has a CAI. that power gain may not be due to the pulley entirely.

anyway, yes oldman's opinion should be interesting! it convinced me NOT to get the DC header.

17whp gains? something is fishyWere did you get 17WHP gains from??? :eyebrow:

hey uhh... that tc has a CAI. that power gain may not be due to the pulley entirely.

anyway, yes oldman's opinion should be interesting! it convinced me NOT to get the DC header.They did a baseline run with just the Intake(injen), header(alphawerks) before the pulley was installed, and another run with the pulley on, so they can tell the gains.

sounds intresting...

So this pulley is different from the NST underdrive pulley, correct? Will it affect my A/C?

So this pulley is different from the NST underdrive pulley, correct? Will it affect my A/C?No it will not affect your AC, I never seen or heard anything about the NST pulley. The AP pulley is the same size as the stock unit, but lighter. I'm not an engineer so I can't give you technical data.

is this tc an auto becouse i think with thoughs mods it should have base lined a little higher then that. also your in arizona do you know what the temp was when that was dynod?

hey uhh... that tc has a CAI. that power gain may not be due to the pulley entirely.

anyway, yes oldman's opinion should be interesting! it convinced me NOT to get the DC header.They did a baseline run with just the Intake(injen), header(alphawerks) before the pulley was installed, and another run with the pulley on, so they can tell the gains.

It is ovbious that the dyno was on a 4sp. 140hp 141tq baseline with I,H is accurate for a 4sp.

The car is a 5 speed, the temp was around 90-100 F wich will take away some performance.

The car is a 5 speed, the temp was around 90-100 F wich will take away some performance.

Perhaps it was a mustang dyno, i dyno 142hp 145tq 4sp i,h. Well i hope we get alot of feedback on this. Would be interesting to hear the "experts".

Yeah the car was on a Mustag Dyno.

Noob question, but is this easy to install and/or reach?

Noob question, but is this easy to install and/or reach?If you work on cars and know what you are doing I'm sure is not a very hard job, but I would recomend having a reputable shop do the work.

17whp gains? something is fishyWere did you get 17WHP gains from??? :eyebrow:

it's either torque or horsepower.

http://www.hooklinesinker.org/tc/pulley.jpg

if its doing that much power addition to the engine, it's removing a lot more than it should from the accessories

Excellent writeup, review and post Chico!
Well done indeed.

and why does it have the AFR on the right of the Y axis?

i doubt you're hitting 21:1 AFR

There is no AFR reading as the AFR was not hooked up, does not matter for a pulley test. look at the bottom of the dyno, it points out the actual gains. The text clearly shows a 10HP gain, not 17. The pulley will take NO POWER from the AC or the stereo as it is NOT underdriven. the pulley is NOT harmonic balanced, it does NOTHING to your motor from what I have seen.

looking at the picture it is not the harmonic balancer... I am surprised as to the HP gain though... maybe if they showed each pulley on a scale to show weight would be nice. the stock one looks fairly heavy but i would definately like to know the actual difference.

I wonder how much would be for the install. That is crazy amount of horsepower for the money.

If there isn't any big draw backs...I might buy this before any other mods...

There is no AFR reading as the AFR was not hooked up, does not matter for a pulley test. look at the bottom of the dyno, it points out the actual gains. The text clearly shows a 10HP gain, not 17. The pulley will take NO POWER from the AC or the stereo as it is NOT underdriven. the pulley is NOT harmonic balanced, it does NOTHING to your motor from what I have seen.

there is no AFR reading but there is a AFR axis. that sounds like someone doesn't know how the F to setup a dyno graph. i'm not knocking the product but this dyno is bunk. it doesn't say which is torque and which is hp on the left Y axis and you can't gauge anything accurately.

what kind of warranty is given to show that it won't blow up your car? :wink:

Wow, it feels like there has been a lot of discussion about pulleys around here lately.

The AP pulley looks pretty nice, a little bit more bling than the NST pulley, although the NST pulley does come in either Blue or Graphite Gray. The bling factor is kind of irrelevent with this mod though, since the pulley is almost completely out of sight when installed. It isnt something like an intake or header that you can see in plain sight.

As far as performance, I am very surprized by those numbers!!! Underdrive pulleys do add HP but I have never seen those kinds of numbers from just a pulley, of any kind, certainly not a stock sized pulley.

Those of you who may have seen my posts about NST pulleys may have read the following already, but here it is again....

I have had several NST pulleys on my own cars, the A/C will not suffer as a result. There are two things gained as a result of aftermarket pulleys....

1. Weight reduction - both NST and the AP pulleys are built out of the same grade of aircraft aluminum. This means that the pulley will weigh much less than the OEM piece built out of steel. Less weight means better throttle responce, it does not necessarily always mean more HP.
2. Underdrive - the NST pulley is Underdriven. This is when you change the size of the pulley. Changing the size of the crank pulley results in less power going to accessories and more power going to the wheels to drive the car. This is how more HP is sent to the wheels.

Getting a stock sized lightweight crank pulley will make the car feel faster, it will definitely be more responsive and FEEL faster, but it will not necessarily make more WHP on a dyno. A pulley that is lightweight AND underdrive will add both throttle responce and will yield WHP.

According to that dyno if the AP pulley is in fact making THAT much more HP then it would be safe to assume, mathematically and theoretically at least, that the NST pulley should make even more power than that one! Somehow I dont see actual gains being quite that high myself. NST www.NonStopTuning.com claims 6-9 BHP which means about 5WHP, this I personally find more believeable.

Both pulleys look like good options, one is more of a bling mod at a more bling type price. The other is clean, very high quality, hard anodized, and extremely affordable.

man, that looks too good to be true. not saying it's not true though. i've heard only good things about AP. i'll def consider this piece in the future.

btw, malina's car is SEXY :D

WARNING!!! :ttth:

Agency Power is Vivid Racing, same company. Vivid Racing is a very evil company that has been known to rip many people off. Do a search on and of the Subaru or Evo websites for more information.

Pulleys do not make horsepower...period. That is fact.

Lightening the rotating mass makes the crank accelerate faster giving improved throttle response, and also allowing it to decelerate faster...much like a lightened flywheel, only a smaller effect since the crank pulley is much smaller.

Putting on a lighter pulley will free up HP that was devoted to spinning the pulley, but I find it hard to believe that it takes 10HP to spin a crank pulley. I have seen actual torque and HP calculations on flywheels that resulted in 15HP being required to get the flywheel up to speed...so 10HP freed up by a pulley is BS. The dyno chart does not look very official to me, it seems as though it could have been modified.

Anyway, I am a firm believer that a balanced engine runs better, which is why I dont like the idea of changing the weights on the crank (a.k.a. flywheel and crank pullies). Even if it is "internally balanced", any weight you add or remove from a large rotating mass (crankshaft) will affect the balance of the crankshaft itself and can cause additional wear to the engine bearings.

Now when peeps add underdriven pullies as well that really gets me. It slows your accessories so your AC compressor cannot pump as fast, and most importantly, your alternator will not charge as fast. The slowing of the accessories can shorten the life of the alternator...I have seen this. These components are design to be run at a certain rpm, if you change that you could be operating out of the allowable range.

Like I always say though, to each their own. I personally don't agree with these mods, but if you don't believe the science, go for it. I will say, however, if you are planning on getting a pulley, a stock sized one which is lighter is the way to go. Don't underdrive the accessories.

flame on.

The dyno chart does not look very official to me, it seems as though it could have been modified.

What made you think that? the AFR legend on the right Y axis or the lack of a label on the left Y axis? LOL

For reference, the stock crank pulley weighs in at 3.5 lbs vs. the Agency Power pulley at 1.0 lbs. When Agency Power designs a pulley, we obviously start with lighter material to begin with. In this case, we are using T-6061 that's CNC'd. From there, patterns are tested to determine the most efficient way to shave weight out to reduce the overall mass of the pulley, without compromising its structural integrity or ability to spin perfectly.

Regarding the dyno graph, it's important to note that those particular runs differ in that the red graph line shows that the person operating the tC on the rollers at the time of this particular run, opened it up to WOT a little earlier than the stock baseline test. So this accounts for the discrepancies below 2800 RPM. It looks like a huge power gain, but it just threw off the curve initially. At no time did Agency Power claim that this pulley produced what appears to be 35 hp, it was just easily mis-interpreted the way the graph lines appear on the print-out. Pardon the oversight, we've only had the Mustang Dynamometer on-hand for about 2 full weeks and certainly there is a learning curve with a complex device such as this. The pulley's true display of it's power can be easily read from 2800 RPMs 'til redline. And yes, the Y-axis showing AFR was not hooked up at the time of this run. Thanks.

can you use this pulley with the TRD Supercharger?

In response to tcengel, your comments are a little unnecessary, but I'd like to respond. Agency Power is indeed a subsidiary of Vivid Racing. But we are 2 separate entities. All Agency Power marketing, sales, customer service and tech support is handled by me as the brand manager. I am a new hire, meaning that I did not work for Vivid Racing before and then get moved over to take on a new role. I come from the financial services industry and possess a BA in Communication, having focused on Organizational- and Interpersonal-Communication. My role primarily focuses on contacting tuner shops and distribution houses to line up channels to sell the Agency Power brand. Additionally, I am here to help promote the brand directly to enthusiasts, such as yourself, through channels such as forums, phone contact, and email. Granted, Vivid Racing may have stepped on some toes in the past, we all have at some point or another, but that was before my time and I have no familiarity with ANY of those situations. People form opinions, but what was the source of that opinion? Was it a direct interaction or was it third-hand information? All we can do is try our best moving forward. But tcengel, please don't post general statements when you really don't have all the facts straight. Your claim that the company is evil is a hasty generalization and nothing more. I would consider myself to be straightfoward, honest person who does his best to display integrity under all situations. I certainly don't fit that profile.

And PghtC, the dyno graph was not altered in any way. To suggest that it could have been modified, come on, that's certainly a low blow and totally unnecessary. Again, a direct attack on our integrity. Yes, you are correct, pulleys do NOT add horsepower. In this case, the lightened pulley is freeing up rotational mass requiring less effort to perform its intended functions. This translates to more power output. Regarding unbalancing the crankshaft due to the weight reduction, though, I think the jury's still out on this one. But for sake of argument, if what you claim is true, then I guess Unorthodox Racing, who specializes in crank and accessory pulleys, as well as lightened flywheels, should be closing up shop any day now. Because they've been around for 10 years manufacturing these types of parts and you'd think they'd have figured it out if it was going to cause premature bearing wear and eventual component failure. Hmmm... Granted, at the end of your post, you do come back to the table and say "...if you are planning on getting a pulley, a stock sized one which is lighter is the way to go." and that's cool, but just please watch what you post. If you have any technical questions at all, I would be glad to relay them to the chief mechanic (yes, he works for Vivid) and we will respond as quickly as possible. Thanks.

Nah, it's cool. we are all entitled to our opinion and I was just sharing mine on the matter. There are those out there who go into these things blindly and I was just expressing my personal feeling on the subject. It was in no way an attack on your company or your integrity. Don't take it personally. I know nothing about your company and I don't pretend to. I was just simply stating the inconsistencies on the dyno charts made me suspicious. Maybe once you get some more experience with the dyno you can have it redone.

I was just talking from an engineer's (me) perspective.

Just trying to help in everyone's learning process...I mean that is why we are all here correct??

WOW, that was the most well-written post i've ever seen on SL. very nice Agency Power Industries.

I think you all should be informed on Oldmans post in the clubscion's forum
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IMO the UD pulley will void: engine warranty and can potentially void any warranty with any accessory too.

For instance the alternator works by being supplying a field voltage from an internal voltage regulator, to produce a regulated voltage for the car. The more electricity needed the higher the field voltage goes. There is NO WAY IN HELL that a smaller crank pulley / larger alternator pulley saves power. The voltage regulator will just up the field voltage and the alternator will gobble up the same power it needed from the engine via the crank, sure it is spinning slower at idle (a BAD thing) but it is using more torque ( a bad thing) so total power consumption by basic automotive engineering has to be the SAME. Except now in this case there is far more torque load on the drive belt / engine and alternator bearings and far more voltage needed to be regulated at the field. In many cases even at max field voltage / max alternator load, the alternator is spinning far too slow to maintain regulator voltage and the battery is being drawn down. This means: rough idle due to alternator load, shorten batter life and poor spark at the plugs due to the lower voltage though the car. As already noted there is NO way the pulley saves any “power” the power draw is directly related to how much power the alternator needs to regulate the voltage. In fact a power pulley may well decrease engine HP when needed because the OEM pulley would probably have a fully charged batter and the field will be near zero meaning no power draw from the alternator, while the UD “performance” pulley will after waiting at idle to go down the ¼ mile with lights and sounds cranking have a drawn down battery meaning the field of the alternator will be cranked all the way meaning the alternator will be drawing MAX power from the engine during your trip down the ¼ mile. Yes I’m aware of the fact that most OEM charging setups will turn down or off the field under WOT conditions, I’m also aware that a drawn down battery has disastrous consequence for spark especially under forced induction conditions. Them dim lights on “power pulley” cars means something and it means the spark is weak and when the engine is revved the alternator will drawn MAX power in an attempt to bring car voltage to nominal levels. A very easy experiment to witness. I may add.
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Also you will gain that 10hp in first gear, about half of that in second, and after that you probobly wont make any power that will make a difference. Not to mention that you will end up taking your life of your engine down quite significantly.

Snip on another quote from Oldman.
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Right, some people will go with UD, at least they should know what they maybe getting into:

Probability of voiding at least the engine warranty
A less then 5 HP gain only on the top end
Decrease in bearing life is a certainty, how much is subject to speculation
Potential catastrophic failure of timing chain and / or plastic gear to balance shaft and / or oil pump
Reduction of A/C operation, electrical generation, and water circulation
Probable idle degrading in traffic especially at night and/ or with A/C operation
Bang for the $$ is very good at $20 per HP.

In response to tcengel, your comments are a little unnecessary, but I'd like to respond. Agency Power is indeed a subsidiary of Vivid Racing. But we are 2 separate entities. All Agency Power marketing, sales, customer service and tech support is handled by me as the brand manager. I am a new hire, meaning that I did not work for Vivid Racing before and then get moved over to take on a new role. I come from the financial services industry and possess a BA in Communication, having focused on Organizational- and Interpersonal-Communication. My role primarily focuses on contacting tuner shops and distribution houses to line up channels to sell the Agency Power brand. Additionally, I am here to help promote the brand directly to enthusiasts, such as yourself, through channels such as forums, phone contact, and email. Granted, Vivid Racing may have stepped on some toes in the past, we all have at some point or another, but that was before my time and I have no familiarity with ANY of those situations. People form opinions, but what was the source of that opinion? Was it a direct interaction or was it third-hand information? All we can do is try our best moving forward. But tcengel, please don't post general statements when you really don't have all the facts straight. Your claim that the company is evil is a hasty generalization and nothing more. I would consider myself to be straightfoward, honest person who does his best to display integrity under all situations. I certainly don't fit that profile.


My post was completetly honest and with a little research anyone can see for themselves. My point was DO NOT give Vivid Racing your business. They do not follow common business ethics and if you give them your credit card number you will be sorry.

I do not see any problem with purchasing Agency Power parts through a distributor though.

1. The car is a 5-speed
2. The dyno graph was not altered
3. Vivid Racing IS Agency Power which is viewed by many as a worthless company

There is no denying that Vivid = Agency Power = $h1t. They are both run out of the same building and both are owned by the same selfish scheming morons. There is a saying, "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree". It truely fits this situation.

Scott (Agency Power), you sir are an imbicile. You didn't even notice when my car was there being test fitted for the pulley and radiator hoses. You actually posted a thread in the Desert & Salt forum looking for a tC to test fit these parts even when my car had been sitting there for two days! Glad to see that "communication" degree has gotten you so far.

People, don't waste your time with either of these companies.

oh well, there goes that mod :lalala:

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=963869#963869

geez i was really looking forward to new light weight pullies.

but like a always say, film critics dont know what movies i like and make stupid reviews on movies that i really like.
so dont listen to critics.

so i will still keep open mind about this and AP.

There's always Unorthodox Racing like I bought, it'll be here tomorrow!

Or you could go for an underdrive pulley from NST, www.NonStopTuning.com
Cheaper than the alternatives, actually makes hp, and ships in 3 days or so! There is also rumor that other NST pulleys are also in the works for the tC. Got that info from an NST rep on AIM :)

Janice, aka malina 22/F, all I can say is "wow". Your comments definitely cut like a knife. You should know that I was always kind to and showed respect to your boyfriend, Chico, who used to work for Vivid up until last Thurs. At no point have I ever talked behind Chico's back or said anything negative about him. And I don't plan to start now. You called me an imbicile and that's unfortunate, but I'm not going to lash back at you. I'd simply like to point out that I was sent an internal email to line up a tC for test-fitting, but due to computer problems, I did not access that email until 3 business days later. In the meantime, the owners lined up your car to do the install and dyno'ing. No one communicated to me (Grrrr!) that this had already been taken care. So at my first opportunity, I went online and requested the tC for test-fitting. Imagine my embarassment when I was told it had already been handled the night before (I leave at 5 each day) and I would have to break the news to the member that was planning on coming down for these parts. Not much I could do at that point except apologize and explain the situation. That is the plain and simple truth. Janice you obviously didn't know the details of the situation and I'm not going to hold that against you. It's clear you are angry with the owners of Vivid Racing, but don't drag me into that mess and start name-calling. That's unfair. I wish you and Chico the best. Thanks.

Or you could go for an underdrive pulley from NST, www.NonStopTuning.com
Cheaper than the alternatives, actually makes hp, and ships in 3 days or so! There is also rumor that other NST pulleys are also in the works for the tC. Got that info from an NST rep on AIM :)
Here's mine
http://www.scionlife.com/gallery/data/500/underdrive_pulley_and_stock_pulley.JPG