Don't know why this is bothering me, but after some investigation..I just have to ask: If the Scion's are being sold as "Pure Pricing", then why do the "Documents Fee's" differ so much? For instance, I have seached every dealers web site in Florida, and have found Documents Fee's anywhere from $35 to $700!! So, if I am willing to make the drive (Florida really ain't that big), I stand to save $665 from one dealer to another. If one dealer can 'process paperwork' for $35, why can't all of you do it?
Just venting, but I'd really like to know...

MattB

It just totally depends on the dealer - there's really no reasoning behind it. Mine were 349 dollars - it's a standard rate the dealer charges on all Toyota Motor Company and used vehicles here.

I understand that it can vary, but bottom line is I can get an xA or xB $600 cheaper from a dealership that is only 78 miles from my house, vs. the dealer that is 4 miles from my house...and the closer dealer won't touch it? I thought they were in business to sell cars, not keep them on the lot for show. Funny thing is, the closer dealer runs an add that says "We'll beat anybody's prices, or we'll pay you $10,000!!"...but the price of the car is the same...the docs fee are what is higher. So, long story short..I drove the 78 miles, got the $35 docs. fee, and my sales person found the color I wanted in less than a week. It will be in this friday..(she traded a hot lava to another dealer..just for me...how sweet).

MattB

It's my understanding that Fla. has no regulations on doc fees. So that amount varies widely by dealer. In Md. the state regulates the fee, $100 is standard issue here. If the dealer posts the doc fee at an unacceptable level I suppose the consumer would vote with his or her feet, as you did. Congratulations on your new Scion!

Don't know why this is bothering me, but after some investigation..I just have to ask: If the Scion's are being sold as "Pure Pricing", then why do the "Documents Fee's" differ so much? For instance, I have seached every dealers web site in Florida, and have found Documents Fee's anywhere from $35 to $700!! So, if I am willing to make the drive (Florida really ain't that big), I stand to save $665 from one dealer to another. If one dealer can 'process paperwork' for $35, why can't all of you do it?
Just venting, but I'd really like to know...

MattB

"Documentation Fee" is dealerspeak for "More Profit". It really seems to violate the concept of "Pure Pricing", IMO, as it allows the dealer to raise the real price of the vehicle while keeping the increase hidden from the customer until the end of the transaction.

I'm rather surprised that you were able to find out the documentation fee up front, as the dealers who tried to pull that sort of trick on me kept it concealed until they couldn't hide it any longer, and then revealed it only in a long tabulation of legitimate fees and taxes, hoping that it would be overlooked..

Perhaps if you charge the dealer a "Check Writing Fee" you could put things back on an even keel.

I cannot think of any other retail purchase in which the seller charges the buyer a fee for doing business. There are honest dealers out there that don't need junk fees to make a reasonable profit, since that profit is already built into "pure pricing".

haha..check wiriting fee...that's a good one there, wish I would have thought of that when I was at the first place. :D Either way, the dealers are getting it. My only hope is that anyone that is going in to buy a xA or xB in the future will read this, and do their homework before siging the dotted line.

MattB

:twisted: I am a dealer from wisconsin we dont get to launch scion till june 1st but we have already started taking orders on the cars and we do not have any fees no doc fees or check writing fees nothin like that. the dealers are just looking for a way to increase profit on something they know is going to take off that is why toyota made the pure pricing what ya build is what you get and again what you pay for not come on down and play find the hidden fees i feel ya and i wish i could provide the right scion experience but i am a ways away but keep a smile and enjoy yer new ride.
any questions call (608)754-7754 or mail me @ patschenck@hessertoyota.com
seeeee yyyyaaaa :twisted:

I got mine at the sticker price. I was about to get a xB with a lot of accessories and the guy told me that they could bring down the prices on those. Just not the car.

Don't know why this is bothering me, but after some investigation..I just have to ask: If the Scion's are being sold as "Pure Pricing", then why do the "Documents Fee's" differ so much? For instance, I have seached every dealers web site in Florida, and have found Documents Fee's anywhere from $35 to $700!! So, if I am willing to make the drive (Florida really ain't that big), I stand to save $665 from one dealer to another. If one dealer can 'process paperwork' for $35, why can't all of you do it?
Just venting, but I'd really like to know...

MattB

"Documentation Fee" is dealerspeak for "More Profit". It really seems to violate the concept of "Pure Pricing", IMO, as it allows the dealer to raise the real price of the vehicle while keeping the increase hidden from the customer until the end of the transaction.

I'm rather surprised that you were able to find out the documentation fee up front, as the dealers who tried to pull that sort of trick on me kept it concealed until they couldn't hide it any longer, and then revealed it only in a long tabulation of legitimate fees and taxes, hoping that it would be overlooked..

Perhaps if you charge the dealer a "Check Writing Fee" you could put things back on an even keel.

I cannot think of any other retail purchase in which the seller charges the buyer a fee for doing business. There are honest dealers out there that don't need junk fees to make a reasonable profit, since that profit is already built into "pure pricing".

You're right, dealers shouldn't be "hiding" this or any other fees. To be in compliance with Pure Pricing, the doc fee should be posted on the website and in the showroom. There shouldn't be any hiding this fee at all. We do not spring this "surprise fee" on the customer at the last minute. Being up front with the customer is the whole point of pure pricing. Pure Pricing is not the same as every dealer charges the same as everyone else. Pure Pricing is simply every customer is able to purchase the car/accessories etc... at the posted menu prices in your showroom and on your website.

In MA, I believe the state allows dealers to charge up to $250 to cover the cost of paperwork etc... It's not a junk fee to maximize profit. When I buy a car, or my family buys a car, we all pay the same fee. If we waive it for one person we risk opening the company up to litigation from someone claiming discrimination.

There are other industry's that have fees like this. Ever by a house? Did you pay any "closing fees" to the lender? Every lender I spoke to has application fees, credit bureau fees, closing costs, etc... Even the FHA loans have closing costs everyone has to pay when they purchase a loan through them.

First rule of business....

"Everything is negotiable!!!"

Actually, if you can find any inconsistencies between the dealers, you can report it to Toyota/Scion. They take it pretty seriously.

First rule of business....

"Everything is negotiable!!!"

Actually, if you can find any inconsistencies between the dealers, you can report it to Toyota/Scion. They take it pretty seriously.

They take it very seriously. If corporate finds any issues with compliance, they first reduce our allocation and give the extra's to our competitors. If the problems continue, they can pull the whole franchise :shock:

I respect the fact that the dealers can charge (up to a state limit) a Documents Fee. What I am astonished at, is that one dealer wouldn't accomodate another dealers price to get the sale. In all my years of buying cars, I've never had a dealer not 'make the deal' (even if they did shaft me on the other side! :lol: ). I mean, it's not like I was going out of state, or even to the tip end of Florida...I just drove 75~ miles west (next city over) and got the lesser price.

MattB

In MA, I believe the state allows dealers to charge up to $250 to cover the cost of paperwork etc... It's not a junk fee to maximize profit. When I buy a car, or my family buys a car, we all pay the same fee. If we waive it for one person we risk opening the company up to litigation from someone claiming discrimination.

Wow...do you really believe people are that naive..if it isn't a junk fee then why does it vary from dealer to dealer...even w/in the same state? Is the paperwork any more complicated in MA than CA...where i paid only $45...i find that extremely difficult to believe....

Secondly....you'd be discriminating if you charged one person the fee and and not another. Okay...you must be joking on this one! You're a car dealer! You sell people the same item to different prices to people everyday! So do you open yourself up to litigation when you sell one person a base Corrolla CE at $15K and another person the exact same car for $14K?

Please stop the bs

I respect the fact that the dealers can charge (up to a state limit) a Documents Fee. What I am astonished at, is that one dealer wouldn't accomodate another dealers price to get the sale. In all my years of buying cars, I've never had a dealer not 'make the deal' (even if they did shaft me on the other side! :lol: ). I mean, it's not like I was going out of state, or even to the tip end of Florida...I just drove 75~ miles west (next city over) and got the lesser price.

MattB

Matt,

I hear you. I can't believe the fees vary that much from dealer to dealer where you are. On a Scion that is Pure Priced, for one dealer to match the others price would be a convenant violation. On any other Toyota, I would be shocked if they wouldn't match it of the fee was the only discrepancy.

In MA, I believe the state allows dealers to charge up to $250 to cover the cost of paperwork etc... It's not a junk fee to maximize profit. When I buy a car, or my family buys a car, we all pay the same fee. If we waive it for one person we risk opening the company up to litigation from someone claiming discrimination.

Wow...do you really believe people are that naive..if it isn't a junk fee then why does it vary from dealer to dealer...even w/in the same state? Is the paperwork any more complicated in MA than CA...where i paid only $45...i find that extremely difficult to believe....

Secondly....you'd be discriminating if you charged one person the fee and and not another. Okay...you must be joking on this one! You're a car dealer! You sell people the same item to different prices to people everyday! So do you open yourself up to litigation when you sell one person a base Corrolla CE at $15K and another person the exact same car for $14K?

Please stop the bs

You must have had a really bad experience somewhere to be so hostile towards dealers.

I have no idea what kind of paperwork etc. CA requires. As for the fee varying, we are allowed to charge up to $250. Some dealers charge the maximum, some charge less. Every store has a different overhead structure, so they choose to charge different fees. If as a consumer, you choose to shop for a car based on who has a lower doc fee, so be it. Most of my customers are more concerned with how they are treated and the level of service my store has to offer than what the doc fee is.

Do you have a checking account? Does your bank charge you a monthly service fee? How about per check? What about ATM access? Different banks have different fee structures for their services. How come those fee vary from bank to bank in the same state?

Selling a car at a different price to people is not the same thing as waiving a fee for one person and not the other. Everyone knows that cars are negotiable. Everyone is given the same shot at working a deal. What we will a car for is not set in stone either, it varies day by day depending on how our day is going and what our inventory situation is. Because of this, how can you consider it discrimination if everyone is given the same shot to work out their best deal? The price of the car is a variable in the transaction, the doc fee is not. That's the difference. Do you walk into a bank and say I'll open an account with you if you waive my monthly maintenance fee? Or how about a mortgage lender? Would you go to one and say "Gee, I'd really like to borrow $300,000, but you have those closing costs. I'll tell you what, waive that $50 app fee, the $50 to run my credit and whatever else you have for 'junk' fees and I'll finance with you"?

Does it burn me that when I want some information on mortgages everyone wants $50 and an application before they'll do more than throw a few pamphlets at me? Absolutely! However, it's a cost that is associated with obtaining a mortgage. Same thing with a doc fee. It's a cost that's associated with buying a car. Why is this so hard to accept?

I think RI has one of the lowest Doc fees = $20. That is all RI allows

here's something i did unintentionally and worked out...
i went to a big dealer w/ a lot of scion sales guys and looked around took a couple test drives, but they didn't have what i wanted so i left. they called me a week later asking if there was something they could do to make me purchase, and i said "eliminate the dealer fee and don't add it somewhere else" and they were cool w/ it. the sales guys were not very educated w/ scions but helpful.

pm me if you want the Dealer's Name. they're in otown FL

Where did you get the doc fees for $35. I am in Orlando, I don't mind driving further if I have too..

Lake City.. Rountreescion.com. Head to Ocala, and then straight up I-75 and you are there.

Matt B

Lake City.. Rountreescion.com. Head to Ocala, and then straight up I-75 and you are there.

Matt B

Thanks Matt, yea that's not that bad of a drive to save a few hundred dollars..

Wow.. I am really freakin glad I saw this post. I live in Daytona Beach, FL.. and I already ordered a black xB from Daytona Toyota/Scion. The Documentation Fee here is $599!! :shock: But I looked at Roundtree's site, and it appears they don't have a documentation fee?

A couple of questions.. If I already ordered the xB from DB Scion (it's due to be here any day now), and signed the order form, is it too late for me to back out and get my xB through Roundtree? a 2 1/2 hour drive to pick up the ride is DEFINITELY worth $600! Also, how much of a hassle will it be to get my deposit ($500) from Daytona Scion?

OR.. would it be possible to negotiate on Daytona's Documentation fee, even though I already placed the order.. tell them I will go somewhere else unless they lower that fee a LOT?

This is my first time buying a car.. my last car was given to me by my grandfather when he passed away.

For what it is worth..I 'ordered' mine through Rountree, and did not even have to leave a deposit. Deposits are refundable. I tried talking my local dealers out of the fee, and they wouldn't budge. So, I made the drive. I was buying a xB, and obviously the local guy didn't want to make the deal..

I say go get your deposit back (they will sell the one you are waiting on, no problem), and call: Kris Summerlin @ Rountree. She'll be honest with you, and let you know what kind of time frame is involved. It took her exactly 2 weeks from the day I told her what I wanted to the day I was driving it home. Tell her Matt B sent you (no I dont get kick back..I just told her I would send people her way, and I want to show that I am doing that). Good luck

Matt B

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: I went back to Daytona Beach Scion to ask what was up with the fee... the guy I dealt with before wasn't there today, so I asked for another scion rep. Some guy walked up, and I asked him (very politely) about taking the $600 fee off. He told me to sit down while he asked another dealer there. He send some other guy over, and this guy was definitely their "bad cop" dealer. He said very rudely and loudly that he cannot take the fee off. When I told him, "OK, then I need my deposit back" he started going crazy. He told me he can't give me the refund, I have to come back tomorrow and get the refund from the guy I originally dealt with. Then he starts telling other people (very loudly), "I can't believe this guy is reopening negotiations!!" He treated me like some scumbag, like I was doing something totally against business ethics. But isn't hiding some FU#$KING $600 fee in a supposedly non-negotiable car bad business ethics??! To hell with Daytona Beach Scion... when I go back there tomorrow I am not leaving until I get my deposit back, and I am definitely getting this guys name, so I can complain to his bosses bosses boss.
Word of mouth is the best form of advertising, and I guarantee that DB Scion will be getting MUCH bad publicity for this crap.

whatever... thanks a ton for the info.. i'm definitely hitting up Rountree Scion.

hey Matt.. what you do in Jax? I go up there a weekend a month for my Reserve duty..

hey Matt.. what you do in Jax? I go up there a weekend a month for my Reserve duty..

http://www.rcst.com

MattB

Congrats on the new xB...im about to buy mine soon but after reading this I might change my dealership choice...So Kieth Pierson was trying to charge you $700?? Also if you want more details on how to meet up with more Scions pm we are having a meet this Friday.

You're right, dealers shouldn't be "hiding" this or any other fees. To be in compliance with Pure Pricing, the doc fee should be posted on the website and in the showroom. There shouldn't be any hiding this fee at all.

"Shouldn't" doesn't go very far in the real world. When I was looking for my xB, I asked two dealers' salesmen point-blank if they had a documentation fee. They hemmed and hawed and tried to change the subject. The Germans weren't as tenacious with the Enigma code as these salesmen were with keeping their documentation fees hidden! The only posting of charges I saw in any Scion showroom was the window stickers which obviously didn't mention any fees.

We do not spring this "surprise fee" on the customer at the last minute. Being up front with the customer is the whole point of pure pricing. Pure Pricing is not the same as every dealer charges the same as everyone else. Pure Pricing is simply every customer is able to purchase the car/accessories etc... at the posted menu prices in your showroom and on your website.

It seems that the nature of "pure pricing" is quite flexible. Scion would surely like everyone to think that the same price is charged to all customers!

In MA, I believe the state allows dealers to charge up to $250 to cover the cost of paperwork etc... It's not a junk fee to maximize profit.

If it isn't, I'd like to know what other effect it has! Any time the state has to cap a fee, it's a sure indication that the fees were being abused prior to the state regulation.

When I buy a car, or my family buys a car, we all pay the same fee. If we waive it for one person we risk opening the company up to litigation from someone claiming discrimination.

That statement is so silly I'm surprised you made it. Virtually every car deal is different and there's no basis for a lawsuit simply because they differ. If you charged a fee because of the ethnicity of the customer, you might have a point, but that isn't the case here.

There are other industry's that have fees like this. Ever by a house? Did you pay any "closing fees" to the lender? Every lender I spoke to has application fees, credit bureau fees, closing costs, etc... Even the FHA loans have closing costs everyone has to pay when they purchase a loan through them.

Oddly enough, many lenders don't charge closing fees these days and feature this prominently in their advertising! They figured out that customers don't like it.

The "everybody's charging fees" argument is weak, because such fees are limited to only a couple of fields. If I buy a TV, computer, groceries, gasoline, jewelry, amateur radio gear, etc. the sellers don't try to up the price with fees after the price is negotiated. Why should certain auto dealers have to charge a fee and others not? To obtain more "Pure Profit", of course!

Congrats on the new xB...im about to buy mine soon but after reading this I might change my dealership choice...So Kieth Pierson was trying to charge you $700?? Also if you want more details on how to meet up with more Scions pm we are having a meet this Friday.

No, KPierson was $499, Coggin Avenues was $399. K.Pierson wouldn't budge, so I went to lake city. I have been to the meet once by Zaxby's. This friday is my truck club's monthly meeting, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to get there.

MattB

Doc fee for me out here in LA was $45.
Despite anyone's opinions that fees are Cost of doing business, bottom line is it's just added in. They could add it to the price of the car and hide it but it's easier for me to brush it off as it's an ok, almost understandable 45. But $700? That's just gouging, pure and simple. :twisted:

Doc fee for me out here in LA was $45.
Despite anyone's opinions that fees are Cost of doing business, bottom line is it's just added in. They could add it to the price of the car and hide it but it's easier for me to brush it off as it's an ok, almost understandable 45. But $700? That's just gouging, pure and simple. :twisted:

Actually, they can't "just add it to the price of the car" as the advertised MSRP is not determined by the dealer. The fixed "pure" MSRP includes a reasonable profit for the dealer and the dealer's expenses are supposed to come out of that profit.

Toyota tried very hard to make sure that all customers are treated alike and the price of a popular new model wouldn't be inflated (like the PT Cruiser, Odyssey, etc.) but it is obvious that some dealers are evading this intent.

The only reason to charge junk fees is to raise the price after the price has been agreed on by the customer and dealer. This is deception and customers shouldn't stand for it.

Our local Honda dealer is a lot more honest about junk fees. They add a sticker to the window on Odysseys with the line item "Additional Dealer Profit". At least they tell the customer up front that they will be gouged!

George

If you want to know the truth the dealer does set the price. Most just keep it at MSRP because why would you want to go over when the dealer down the street will have it at MSRP. But some dealers do have it over like(look at the accessory prices)http://carsonscion.com/html/carsonmenu.html and there are dealers near me that actually made some of their accessory prices lower. :evil: I've been through alot of Scion training and they will tell you. Selling Price=Posted Price or Menu Price
Meaning that the price the dealer sells it at can be whatever they want as long as it's posted in the dealership and on their price menu on their web site. And all the accessories that they offer are supposed to be posted on their web site and in their showroom. And i've seen alot of the web sites and alot of them don't show everything that they offer.

For what it is worth..I 'ordered' mine through Rountree, and did not even have to leave a deposit. Deposits are refundable. I tried talking my local dealers out of the fee, and they wouldn't budge. So, I made the drive. I was buying a xB, and obviously the local guy didn't want to make the deal..

I say go get your deposit back (they will sell the one you are waiting on, no problem), and call: Kris Summerlin @ Rountree. She'll be honest with you, and let you know what kind of time frame is involved. It took her exactly 2 weeks from the day I told her what I wanted to the day I was driving it home. Tell her Matt B sent you (no I dont get kick back..I just told her I would send people her way, and I want to show that I am doing that). Good luck

Matt B

I am dealing with Chris Summerlin NOW. Rountree is 198 miles from my house. The 2 local dealers here have screwed around with me and I refuse to buy from them now. Chris has been very helpful thus far and said my xB will arrive at rountree Monday. I was required today to give a $1,000 deposit (I'm putting down more) but the card will not be charged until I arrive at the dealership for pick-up. I hope the service continues all the way through as it has so far. I've got to ask her if there is a better rate for me than the 6.95% with Toyota though. If not, no biggie. 5k is being transferred the first month to a 0% balance transfer rate on a credit card. :lol:

Bump.

I'm very glad that this thread has been posted, now I'm alot more familiar with how things worked out poorly for some, and in some cases worked out better for others.

Here in Ohio, a certain dealer charges $100. I have to call 45 miles away, and check what they are charging now. Thank to this post, now I'm curious.

:D


Great read/thread.

Dave

In MA, I believe the state allows dealers to charge up to $250 to cover the cost of paperwork etc... It's not a junk fee to maximize profit. When I buy a car, or my family buys a car, we all pay the same fee. If we waive it for one person we risk opening the company up to litigation from someone claiming discrimination.

Wow...do you really believe people are that naive..if it isn't a junk fee then why does it vary from dealer to dealer...even w/in the same state? Is the paperwork any more complicated in MA than CA...where i paid only $45...i find that extremely difficult to believe....

Secondly....you'd be discriminating if you charged one person the fee and and not another. Okay...you must be joking on this one! You're a car dealer! You sell people the same item to different prices to people everyday! So do you open yourself up to litigation when you sell one person a base Corrolla CE at $15K and another person the exact same car for $14K?

Please stop the bs

:clap:

Don't know why this is bothering me, but after some investigation..I just have to ask: If the Scion's are being sold as "Pure Pricing", then why do the "Documents Fee's" differ so much? For instance, I have seached every dealers web site in Florida, and have found Documents Fee's anywhere from $35 to $700!! So, if I am willing to make the drive (Florida really ain't that big), I stand to save $665 from one dealer to another. If one dealer can 'process paperwork' for $35, why can't all of you do it?
Just venting, but I'd really like to know...

MattBProlly cause some dealers have higher overhead. Someone has to pay for those large luxurious buildings. :tap: Scions do not have a very high profit margine to begin with so some dealers are trying to make a quick buck and don't worry about future business from you. The ones with the lower dock fees are more interested in your future business. :clap:

A little of topic but I once had a dealer who tried to charge me a destination fee and the car was on the lot already. :rofl:

A little of topic but I once had a dealer who tried to charge me a destination fee and the car was on the lof already. :rofl:Most domestic dealers have the destination charges right on the sticker. They vary by make and model. Usually the more expensive the vehicle the higher the destination/delivery fee is.

My dealer wanted 35 for doc fees. i told them that since they never disclosed this fee i wasnt going to pay. They gave in. A small victory. But a victory is still sweet when you have them give in to you after they say "everybody pays this fee". Well, not anymore they don't.

Wow! 2-1/2 years dormant and the thread jumps back to life! Old threads never die! :)

Pure pricing?? What a joke. I had several (4) dealers pulling at my arms and feet trying to sell me the xB. I got out of of the dealer for $16,358 out the door pricing on my RS4. I think that was a good deal for me.

I typically do not trade cars. However, I was told - when shopping for my 05 xB - if I was to trade, the first dealer to 'cut a deal' would record the vin and all dealers would have to honor the quote (no more - no less). I didn't give it much thought as, again, my cars are typically wore out before replaced.

one thing i found out about Pure pricing when i got my 2008 xB this week was that Pure pricing applies to extended warranties, maintenance packages etc....

Now that does not seem fair at all!!

but i do Love my new Super White xB!!

Don't know why this is bothering me, but after some investigation..I just have to ask: If the Scion's are being sold as "Pure Pricing", then why do the "Documents Fee's" differ so much? For instance, I have seached every dealers web site in Florida, and have found Documents Fee's anywhere from $35 to $700!! So, if I am willing to make the drive (Florida really ain't that big), I stand to save $665 from one dealer to another. If one dealer can 'process paperwork' for $35, why can't all of you do it?
Just venting, but I'd really like to know...

MattB

I've never paid a document or other fee when I bought a vehicle. I negotiated my price and we sat down. They brought up the fee crap. I asked them if they were losing my multi-thousand dollar sale for their $50. IF they said yes, I walked. I got called back in to get the vehicle without the fee.

"Well, we have to charge the fee". Ok, then take $100 more off the car. Not paying any extra over what I negotiated.

Don't know why this is bothering me, but after some investigation..I just have to ask: If the Scion's are being sold as "Pure Pricing", then why do the "Documents Fee's" differ so much? For instance, I have seached every dealers web site in Florida, and have found Documents Fee's anywhere from $35 to $700!! So, if I am willing to make the drive (Florida really ain't that big), I stand to save $665 from one dealer to another. If one dealer can 'process paperwork' for $35, why can't all of you do it?
Just venting, but I'd really like to know...

MattB

I've never paid a document or other fee when I bought a vehicle. I negotiated my price and we sat down. They brought up the fee crap. I asked them if they were losing my multi-thousand dollar sale for their $50. IF they said yes, I walked. I got called back in to get the vehicle without the fee.

"Well, we have to charge the fee". Ok, then take $100 more off the car. Not paying any extra over what I negotiated.

well, it is against the pure price rules to adjust the car price at all - besides the fact that the dealer makes next to nothing on the deal...