I picked up my 5 speed BCP 06' on Friday and the dealer didn't have my options in stock (another issue).. Anyway, I was given a xB today as a loaner that had an auto tranny. Here's the issue..

Auto Tranny at 80mph was 3200 rpm.
My 5 speed at 80 mph is 3900 rpm.

Both are 06 models.

No wonder the auto is rated at 2mpg better than the manual on the highway.. It's spinning where it should. I'm just wondering why the 5 speed tranny isn't spinning in the same range as the auto does, at the same speed??

Interesting. How is the exelleration with the 5-speed vs the auto?

For that first couple of weeks, it was hard to keep the front wheels from chirping in 1st and 2nd

It is because the auto has a tourque converter, while the MT trans does not.

A MT xB runs almost a full second faster through the 1/4 mile than the auto........

It is because the auto has a tourque converter, while the MT trans does not.

A MT xB runs almost a full second faster through the 1/4 mile than the auto........

I'm fully aware of how a manual and auto tranny work.. My question is, why are they geared so much differently?

Acceleration with the manual is much stronger than the auto, but that's expected with such lower gearing. It' wouldn't be as much of a difference if they were geared the same and both turned the same RPM at the same road speed.

If they're trying to grab gearheads by shortening the gearing on the manual, so be it, but since they don't normally have a 5 speed to demo, how would anyone know the difference?? Hell, I didn't figure on this much of a difference (18%) between the two different trannys.

I bought the 5 speed because I like 5 speeds. I've owned around 20 cars in my lifetime and all but 3-4 have been manual..

I think I know what the problem is... :tap: I'm old... :rofl:

>I'm fully aware of how a manual and auto tranny work.. My question is, why are they geared so much differently?

So that Scion can claim better mileage with the auto tranny than with the stick and therefore sell more autos.

Cynical? Moi??

>I bought the 5 speed because I like 5 speeds. I've owned around 20 cars in my lifetime and all but 3-4 have been manual..

AWRIGHT!! Sticks RULE!!!

>I think I know what the problem is... I'm old...

HOW old?!? I'm 52 (almost).

Someone should start a SOFa club (Scion Old-Fart's club)

-Don (SOFa #1)

So that Scion can claim better mileage with the auto tranny than with the stick and therefore sell more autos.


Oh, I think you're onto something there!!! :bow: :bow: :bow:

Kinda like making gas $3 for a month, so that $2.50 seams like a deal??? :ponder:

it is actually because of a difference in the final drive gearing.....

I chose the automatic because it didn't rev so high on the freeway. The stick reminded me of my'85 Corolla GTS that always was reving high and had me wishing I had another gear. Sign me up for the SOF club. This 50 Y/O used to be a geezer, but now I'm an XBeezer! :lalala:

It's too bad it's not a six speed. I always feel like a need to shift again after I'm in 5th.

Auto Tranny at 80mph was 3200 rpm. My 5 speed at 80 mph is 3900 rpm.... why the 5 speed tranny isn't spinning in the same range as the auto does, at the same speed??

Manual:
I have the manual and 80 is exactly 4000 rpm.

Auto:
Looking at the 4th gear ratio for the automatic in the table below, it gives 23.5 mph per 1000 rpm, so the rpm at 80 mph is actually 3400 rpm.
From Car & Driver (automatic trans.):
Gear ... Ratio ... Mph/1000 rpm ... Max. test speed
I ........ 2.85 .......5.8 ..............37 mph (6400 rpm)
II ....... 1.55...... 10.6 .............68 mph (6400 rpm)
III ..... 1.00 ..... 16.4 ............103 mph (6250 rpm)
IV ... ....0.70 .... 23.5 ............103 mph (4400 rpm)

Here are the gear ratios for each transmission:
Manual Ratios
1st 3.545
2nd 1.904
3rd 1.310
4th 0.969
5th 0.815
Reverse 3.250
Differential Ratio 4.312
Combined Final Drive (5th gear) 3.514

Automatic Ratios
1st 2.847
2nd 1.552
3rd 1.000
4th 0.700
Reverse 2.343
Differential Ratio 4.157
Combined Final Drive (4th gear) 2.910

At any speed, the automatic RPM in 4th gear will be 17% lower than the manual in 5th gear. Lower RPM means less horsepower and torque at any speed.

The automatic is for those who want economical communting and traveling, while the manual is for those who want performance and control of the transmission.

On long steep Interstate hills most people would appreciate the ability of the manual to maintain speed in top gear. On twisty 2-lane mountain roads, they would also appreciate the additional power and control offered by the manual.

I agree with the idea that it's to make the automatic as attactive as possible. It is like there is no trade-off to getting auto. The way it's geared, only benefit for manual is peppier acceleration. This may be closer to the reason some customers chose manual over automatic.

Forget the 6th gear, I just wish 5th gear were higher, a 5mph gap between 4th and 5th is almost worthless. I would rather shift into 5th at 50mph and have the lower cruising RPM. I guess it just wasn't worth the effort to make another C-series tranny just for the bB/xB.

i hate that the manual is geared like that. Almost makes me not want to drive it on the highway with the way that it screams. They need to offer a final gear that you can swap into the manual for nice highway cruising.

the worst part about the manual on the highway is that at 75mph there is no power! you have to down shift to 4th or even 3rd to get past something quickly. i had a 97 jetta 2.0l before this and in 5th gear all i had to do was push the gas alittle and i coudl go from 65-85 in seconds.

hmmm. interesting info for the prospective xB buyer. I am only looking to buy a new vehicle because of gas prices (currently rolling an F150 Supercrew) and was planning on getting the MT, assuming slightly better mpg. Either way, the xB is going to blow away my truck, and I guess I would probably prefer the little extra zip you can get with a manual.

deff get the 5spd...its not nearly as bad as some say. plus once you turn the stereo up you dont here the engine much anyway haha. and like you said...it will blow your truck away even if you drive it at 110%

Along with the extra zip comes more fuel consumption. I own the auto and wouldn't for any reason go to a manual. I feel I have more control over shift points with the auto. Reason is that with less actual accelerator usage my auto shifts in the low rpm range. Usually this is below 3k rpm. Now you do loose the zippiness but that's ok. I didn't buy it to be fast. As for uphil driving or passing on the highway, the auto has a neat little overdrive on/off button on the shift. Bump that and it downshifts to give you plenty of power to climb or pass. With traffic jams and city driving I wouldn't trade my auto for 2 sticks.

I'm concidering buying a Scion Xb but I'll tell ya having to hold the engine RPM at 3500 or higher for highway travel scares the life out of me!! I simply can't see how these engines can hold up. While as far as cars go the 14-16K you spend on an Xb is really really reasonable I still believe its still alot of money and should be expected to run trouble free for at least 100K miles. i guess what I'm asking is should I worry about durablity if I drive it alot on the highway??

Most small engine cars turn high rpms at freeway speed. My wifes civic turns almost 3500 at 75. The engine must turn this high to have the torque needed to keep the car at such a high speed. Her civic has 180000 on the clock and she drives 30 miles one way every day to work at 80 mph and has done so for 5 years. Now a friends dad has a 92 tercel that has over 300k on the clock and has always seen the highway. He drives almost 100 miles to work everyday and it turns over 3500 rpms at 75. These engines are made for it. I wouldn't worry.

As to hill-climbing with the automatic, pushing the little O/D button drops the auto transmission into third (which also has the torque-converter-lockup feature, same as 4th), which gives just slightly less aggressive overall gearing thaan dropping the 5-speed into 4th (4.16:1 as opposed to 4.18:1).

The auto when in 3rd climbs as well as the stick in 4th, in other words.

I just did a bit of cross-country driving across a couple of mountain ranges (Seattle area to Hamilton, MT and back) and had no problems with ANY hills, including the Vantage Hill (I-90, westbound, Vantage, WA to Ryegrass rest stop) which climbs 2000 feet in just under 10 miles in one continuous shot.

(The auto is much more relaxed zipping through Montana at a continuous 80MPH in 97 degree temps with the A/C on than the manual.) :)

The stick is peppier, but the auto is a bit better highway cruiser.

Tom

This is some great info. I drive about 40 miles a day on average, short stints on the highway and city streets. About every month to 6 weeks I drive up to Chicago (3 hours of interstate). With that in mind, it sounds like the manual will be more for me as I will be doing a lot more city type driving then long trips.

This is some great info. I drive about 40 miles a day on average, short stints on the highway and city streets. About every month to 6 weeks I drive up to Chicago (3 hours of interstate). With that in mind, it sounds like the manual will be more for me as I will be doing a lot more city type driving then long trips.Your situation sounds like mine. My box shuttles between home and work most of the time but once in a while it gets to go on some longer trips. I like the stick a LOT for this kind of service. If it were the reverse -- mostly longer trips and occasional commuting -- I would have gotten the automatic instead. As far as engine longevity for high rpms, I used to own a BMW K75 motorcycle that spun much higher revs at high (80+) speeds and it was barely broken in at 65K miles on the clock and I knew of riders that got more than 150K miles without wearing out the engines. The key to engine life is changing the oil when it needs to be changed . . . . .

.. it sounds like the manual will be more for me as I will be doing a lot more city type driving then long trips.

I got the manual because I love the smooth feel of the shifter and the clutch, the pleasure of deciding when to do each gear change, the constant little decisions of how to use the throttle after each gear change, and listening to the little snarl of the muffler with the gear shifts.

I got the manual for pleasure. If one does not find pleasure in the manual, there is no practical reason aside from cost to choose it, because the automatic beats it by all other measures.

the worst part about the manual on the highway is that at 75mph there is no power! you have to down shift to 4th or even 3rd to get past something quickly. i had a 97 jetta 2.0l before this and in 5th gear all i had to do was push the gas alittle and i coudl go from 65-85 in seconds.must suck to have a slow xb...

the worst part about the manual on the highway is that at 75mph there is no power! you have to down shift to 4th or even 3rd to get past something quickly....
After downshifting to 3th gear at 75 mph, does the engine have any RPMs left to make the car go faster?

...After downshifting to 3th gear at 75 mph, does the engine have any RPMs left to make the car go faster?

Not many RPMs left in 3rd gear, not enough speed up from 75 to 80, according to the Owner's Manual.
Page 99: Max allowable speed in 3rd gear = 79 mpg.

Probably better just to floor it in 5th. My xB accelerates from 75 in 5th pretty good.

i'm pretty sure i've gotten to at least 80 indicated so that about right. i don't have to downshift for most normal acceleration , to really get on it i slip it in 4th and blow by just about anything.

the worst part about the manual on the highway is that at 75mph there is no power! you have to down shift to 4th or even 3rd to get past something quickly. i had a 97 jetta 2.0l before this and in 5th gear all i had to do was push the gas alittle and i coudl go from 65-85 in seconds.

I dont agree.My 5speed xB has great power at 75mph.Its turning about 3600rpm where the motor makes its power.Just hit the gas and it gets up and goes very well.Also for me I dont mind the rpms at all.I drive and shift between 4and5000 rpm and still get 35mpg.To each their own.

I wish someone would make a good aftermarket 6sp tranny for the xB. Anyone hear of such a thing?

celica gts has a 6spd since the y2k range and supposedly they have the same engine family so i'd think a person could mate up the whole drive train without it being the end of the world

Jeez you guys are real complainers. 4000 rpm on the freeway isn't hard on the engine in the least bit, it's just beginning to circulate the oil at that speed. Your engine will be just fine, it's a reliable Toyota powerplant. If you think revving the engine high is scary, consider that motorcycles regularly have 10000rpm redlines or more. One of my bikes does 65mph at 4100rpm. It, like the xB, likes to rev high! :)

Jeez you guys are real complainers. 4000 rpm on the freeway isn't hard on the engine in the least bit, it's just beginning to circulate the oil at that speed. Your engine will be just fine, it's a reliable Toyota powerplant. If you think revving the engine high is scary, consider that motorcycles regularly have 10000rpm redlines or more. One of my bikes does 65mph at 4100rpm. It, like the xB, likes to rev high! :)

You want a car that likes to rev high? Get a Honda...now THOSE are engines that like to rev. Our engine revs high rather begrudgingly. I just took a 300 mile trip, all freeway, at 70-80mph. It was one of the most uncomfortable trips I've taken. The engine was loud and was revving close to 4000 the whole time and because of that, the mileage was terrible. I average 34mpg in mixed use, on this trip of almost no stops, I average under 26. I think the main reason is because the engine had to rev too high to keep me at freeway speeds. Another gear (or a taller 5th) would allow the engine to pull the car along at the same speed but with far less work and would save on gas and engine wear.

For a Toyota, I find it far less efficient than it could be.

I'm concidering buying a Scion Xb but I'll tell ya having to hold the engine RPM at 3500 or higher for highway travel scares the life out of me!! I simply can't see how these engines can hold up. While as far as cars go the 14-16K you spend on an Xb is really really reasonable I still believe its still alot of money and should be expected to run trouble free for at least 100K miles. i guess what I'm asking is should I worry about durablity if I drive it alot on the highway??

Don't forget that this is a four valve per cylinder engine that redlines at 6500 RPM. Toyota has been making this type of engine for a long time now and they are very reliable and durable.

I wish someone would make a good aftermarket 6sp tranny for the xB. Anyone hear of such a thing?you want better highway mpg? get the yaris or echo 5 speed . same trans . they have crappier geaing than we do which is why they are much slower accel wise but they get better mpg. take your pick . good pickup with low horsepower , or no pickup with low horsepower but you'll get 3 mpg better on the freeway. take your pick.

see most cars are traveling at 70 around here..to get out and around someone in 5th takes forever at 70. a downshift to 4th barely bumps the RPM at all. i skip 4th all together and go right to 3rd. get past them then shift to 5th.

i rarely use 5th off the highway and rarely use 4th on the highway. i accelerate through 3rd which puts me right where i need to be and shift to 5th. a 6th gear would be nice take it down to ~2500rpm at 70mph.

I don't know that the xB was designed to where highway passing speeds was the number one concern, but I am not getting it at all... at 70mph in my xB, also a 5-spd, it's right at the RPM it needs to be to where passing has never been a problem. Ever.

I really seriously doubt that our little 1.5L engine would be at all happy trying to run 70 MPH at only 2500 RPM - the load, including drag, would be almost lugging the poor thing.

That's even lower gearing than the automatic...

AUTOMATIC:

2560 RPM @ 60 MPH
2990 RPM @ 70 MPH

MANUAL:

3070 RPM @ 60 MPH
3580 RPM @ 70 MPH

Tomas

tomas brings up a very valid point. 3k or 3.5k would work but 2.5 is nuts.

even stock my car had plenty (well decent enough) passing power while in 5th gear. now that it's pretty well modified it's WAY easy .

maybe once i get some parts it will be better

Tomas, that's creepy bro. I never realized your avatar blinked until just now. You made me drop a thickburger.

I really seriously doubt that our little 1.5L engine would be at all happy trying to run 70 MPH at only 2500 RPM... would be almost lugging the poor thing.
It might not make enough power at 2500 rpm to go 70 mph. At 2500 rpm in 5th (50 mph) mine does not have the power to pull any kind of hill without downshifting to raise the rpms.

As for lugging, my xB can pull away from a rolling stop in 2nd and take full throttle immediately, without lugging. Under the same test, my 1991 2.6L Mazda truck will lug. The difference is due to the xB's VVT.

I think that people equate lugging with straining. Lugging is a harsh bucking vibration under throttle at low rpm. I cannot make my xB do it. Where the Mazda lugs, the xB just smoothly makes no power, then both make power as the rpms increase.

That's true, I've not actually seen one of our engines really "lug" but that's due to some very fancy footwork being done by the ECU to prevent it happening and causing damage.

I should have been more exact by simply saying that I doubt our engines put out enough power at 2500 RPM to be at all reasonable for pushing our boxes at 70 MPH.

If one accelerated to 70 in a lower gear, it would likely be able to hold 70 MPH on the flat at 2500 RPM, but I don't think one could accelerate on the level or maintain speed on even a small upgrade.

This isn't like my old Chrysler that could essentially idle at 70. :)

Tomas

so could one get the final drive gear set from an auto xb and swap it into the emanual xb to get the lower(numerically) gearing while still having all the fun of a 5 speed?

so could one get the final drive gear set from an auto xb and swap it into the emanual xb to get the lower(numerically) gearing while still having all the fun of a 5 speed?

lol

get a yaris/echo 5 speed trans.

secretagentmonkey that was funny because?...

get a yaris/echo 5 speed trans.

I don't suppose the 6spd from the Celica would work...

i've been told that the engines in the gt-s celicas are in the same 'family' as ours so it's not to much of a stretch that it could be done

secretagentmonkey that was funny because?...

Either it's late enough that I'm too tired to understand what you said or it doesn't make sense...

90 % of poor fuel economy complaints on the xB forums are from owners that have an auto tranny. I average 26-27 mpg on combined city/Hwy , I have an old auto 97 camry which averages 25 on the same trip. Both are even at 27 mpg on interstate drives at 80 mph. If you toss a few hills and full throttle accelleration on you route then the auto xBs fuel economy will spike downwards. resetting the ECU helps a bit (28-29mpg) but goes back to 26-27 on the next tankful. My worst ave is 22mpg on I-15 en route to las vegas with 3 passengers at 75mph. No noticeable crosswinds or headwinds on that drive.

03 xB auto
Tires and Rims : 205-40-17's
Odometer : 68998
switched to Full Synthetic Oil after 11k
stock intake and exhaust

90 % of poor fuel economy complaints on the xB forums are from owners that have an auto tranny.

That would be true, if it wasn't false. If anything, the opposite is true.

RichC

get a yaris/echo 5 speed trans.

I don't suppose the 6spd from the Celica would work...not without cutting and such , the ae111 levin 6 speed is rumored to be drop in. the 2zz celica gts 6 speed is not direct.

205/40/17 is too small of a tire diameter flip flop that hurts your mpg. stock intake and exaust suck arse too.

maybe you have a heavy foot combined with heavy wheels that are too small.

yeah when i 1st got my car my buddy in his auto wanted to run me so when we did i took him off the dig by a bus its like he was going back words... on take off there is a big diff when it comes to auto an manu in the xB...

The manual tranny xB was a creation for the USDM and I bet they didn't test at higher speeds, especially ones over any legal speed limit.

Auto Tranny = True JDM :wink:

90% of poor fuel economy complaints on the xB forums are from owners that have an auto tranny. I average 26-27 mpg on combined city/Hwy... My worst ave is 22mpg on I-15 en route to las vegas with 3 passengers at 75mph... 03 xB auto... Odometer 68998...
To me, there seem to be more complaints from manual drivers. There could be some problem with your car causing your poor mileage; maybe because of the high miles the engine needs a tune up, or maybe its just a dirty air cleaner.
My combined city/hwy for the first 6000 miles was 35 mpg. Now I just completed a 2500-mile trip in 7 days, including some 2-lane hilly roads and 75 mph Interstates, for an avg of 35 mpg. 2006 xB Manual, odometer 8500.

The manual tranny xB was a creation for the USDM and I bet they didn't test at higher speeds, especially ones over any legal speed limit....
I think that all car makers test their new engine and drivetrain combinations in "mules", and explore the whole envelope of power and reliability. Toyota might be the most thorough at this.
In the 5-speed xB, Toyota gave me what I wanted: control over the shifting and more acceleration, for a sportier driving experience at less cost. Yet I am aware that overall, and for most people, the automatic is a more efficient and useful transmission.

Yes, the manual is better as the 'urban rat racer' and more fun to drive in many urban situations, but it does get a little out of breath at a TRUE 75 MPH (legal speed in many areas) for extended periods.

Driving, for example, in some parts of the western or mid-western US where 100-200 miles on a laser-straight road at legal 75-80 indicated is NOT unusual, puts the manual at a distinct disadvantage just from engine drone.

Running at higher speeds than that, just to keep up with traffic, can be a drain with the manual.

Tomas

... car makers test their new engine and drivetrain combinations in "mules", and explore the whole envelope of power and reliability. Toyota might be the most thorough at this....
Here's where they test the USDM cars in Arizona...
http://www.taisei.com/project_details.asp?ProjectID=43
http://www.taisei.com/admin/uploadedimages/testtract.jpg
http://www.sundestinresort.com/brent/scion/TAPG.png

Actually surprised that there isn't a 'figure eight' option on the large oval so testing vehicles can easily balance left-right curves.

Tomas

secretagentmonkey that was funny because?...

Either it's late enough that I'm too tired to understand what you said or it doesn't make sense...

fair enough it was kinda late here too. i was thinking that if the differential gears were the same just a different ratio that if a person really wanted to they could swap the auto diff gears into the manual and get what i'd guess would be the best of both worlds. hope that makes more sense(honestly i couldn't come up with the word differential last night)

Man, that smaller twisty track looks like fun. I could just imagine them guys drinking beer, eating sausage and taking an MR2 out for a spin.

Oh wait, that's me I'm imagining.

I test-drove both transmissions before I bought mine. I didn't like the way the automatic always seemed to be downshifting on the slightest grades around the Pittsburgh area. So for commuting, I'd argue that the automatic is actually the louder and less efficient of the two choices; hence, the lower EPA mileage rating for city driving.
Plus I didn't want to pay the extra money for the automatic, along with the extra complexity in the car.
If I did more highway driving I'd want the automatic. More than 2 hours with the manual transmission starts to make me crazy.

For comparison, I used to own a 1974 Fiat 128 SL that turned 4000 RPM at 60 mph in 4th (top) gear. It would redline at 100 mph. The Italians knew how to build a high-revving engine! Not bad for only 75 HP with a carburetor and 1.3 L. The xB reminds me a little of that driving experience, but without the electrical problems....

My car was white:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y151/gslippy/Scion_xB/Fiat128coupe_200.jpg

I bought my wife a XB last month and she loves it. I agree about the high RPMs in 5th at highway speeds I don't like it. Does anyone know the gear ratio of 5th gear on the echo or yaris transmissions? It would be really easy to replace 5th gear on this transmission.

Thanks
Craig

... So for commuting, I'd argue that the automatic is actually the louder and less efficient of the two choices; hence, the lower EPA mileage rating for city driving. ...

FWIW, the 2005 and 2006 auto and manual xBs are both rated the same for city mpg (31mpg in 2005, 30 in 2006). But based on the folks posting at the fueleconomy.gov (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymanu.htm) site, the manual gets better mileage. (Obviously, it's a self-selected sample and the usual caveats apply.)

man. vs auto
33.6 vs 27.4 (2004)
31.5 vs 30.0 (2005)
33.2 vs 29.3 (2006)