from leftlanenews (http://www.leftlanenews.com/?p=244)
Toyota and powertrain specialist Aisin are reportedly working on automatic transmissions with “more than seven” speeds. The current automatic leader in terms of the greatest number of gear ratios is Mercedes, with its 7G-tronic seven-speed transmission. When it comes to manual transmissions, the leader is BMW, with its seven-speed sequential-manual transmission. Toyota is “looking at automatics with more speeds, especially for the premium market,” Kazuhiko Miyadera, R&D executive vice president at Toyota Motor Engineering and Manufacturing Europe said in an interview. “Mercedes and ZF both have seven speeds already,” testing engineer Bertram Kurz said. “So there would be little point in us only doing that.”

Point? The thing would constantly be shifting between gears, what does it have like 3 overdrive gears? Now they are just getting silly.

from leftlanenews (http://www.leftlanenews.com/?p=244)
Toyota and powertrain specialist Aisin are reportedly working on automatic transmissions with “more than seven” speeds. The current automatic leader in terms of the greatest number of gear ratios is Mercedes, with its 7G-tronic seven-speed transmission. When it comes to manual transmissions, the leader is BMW, with its seven-speed sequential-manual transmission. Toyota is “looking at automatics with more speeds, especially for the premium market,” Kazuhiko Miyadera, R&D executive vice president at Toyota Motor Engineering and Manufacturing Europe said in an interview. “Mercedes and ZF both have seven speeds already,” testing engineer Bertram Kurz said. “So there would be little point in us only doing that.”

How many speeds does it have to have before it becomes indistinguishable from a CVT?

I've found that four speeds is about all that a competent driver can handle effortlessly with a conventional shifter. Adding a fifth really complicates things, unless it is simply a tall overdrive gear that is seldom used in normal driving.

The only way to go with more gears is sequential shifting, something the motorcycle people have known for decades, but which for some reason is the latest kewl thing with automobiles. The only reason to have more speeds is to keep the engine in the optimum RPM range at all times as that range gets narrower due to tuning. I don't think that many folks will really want to drive a car that makes decent power only between 8000 and 9000RPM! I've had motorcycles like that and they were pains to ride.

The fact is, we are seeing the last round of manual transmissions. Automatics have become so good that they are surpassing manuals in mileage. The only fault they have is a lag in downshifting because they cannot react until the driver hits the gas. When this problem is licked, the manual shift lever will become as obsolete as the spark advance lever and choke buttons.

George <--whose xB is probably the last stick shift he will own.

now THIS is an automatic transmission!!

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


http://www.plr.nu/images/backv.jpg

Mack Trucks (18 wheelers) have anywhere from 5 to 18 gears....

Mack Trucks (18 wheelers) have anywhere from 5 to 18 gears....

Mack trucks have that many gears because they NEED those gears...u realize how short those gears are? and they are ALL for pulling...u listen to a fully loaded big rig shift they are MAYBE in each gear for like 2 seconds...and they probably shift gears 5+ times before they are even totally out of the intersection! but if u hear the same rig NOT loaded...there is a good chance they are starting off in like 6th gear!

To me, I dont see the need for 8 gears in a car...I mean, I guess it's kinda cool...but 5 speeds are just fine with me...as for my box, I really want a 6th for freeway cruising!! Mercedes puts their 7-speed in a car with 400+ HP...so it makes at least a little bit of sense...its going to use ALL of those gears to give you a smooth power delivery, and make it a more civilized ride (civilized = old people). ME, I prefer hard shifting and neck breaking acceleration!

To each his own...

IMO - I think more gears in an automatic transmission makes for smoother shifting to where you don't feel the car shifting. Some will say CVT does the same thing, but CVT is for front wheel drive...not RWD. so...when it comes to the luxo brand cars...I.E. BMW/MB/Lexus etc.... you want silky smooth shifting. and also you don't want a loss in RPM's when the car shifts, just 1 continous motion forward with the RPM needle.


I guess thats what more gears are for :yawn:

A high number of gears would allow for an engine that is high-torque, but low horsepower, to still be driveable.

all those gears are unneeded unless you have very narrow powerband like a semi. after that its just a waste for anything other than bragging you have more gears.

and the semi trucks have a 2 speed diff one high one low!!!

The Honda Jazz uses a CVT that has a "7 gear mode" for manual shifting. More than likely Toy is planning something similar.

The reason for all the gears is better gas mileage. It is even more effective when you have a big engine with lots of HP. That is why the rush is on for larger speed trannys especially with all these SUV and V8 auto's. Manufacturers need to get better gas mileage.
A larger speed transmission is more expensive to manufacture.
Remember CVT transmissions get the best mileage because they have an infinate number of gears. The trick in all of this is to get the tranny to shift smoothly, then it does not matter how mny gears you have!

The reason for all the gears is better gas mileage. It is even more effective when you have a big engine with lots of HP. That is why the rush is on for larger speed trannys especially with all these SUV and V8 auto's. Manufacturers need to get better gas mileage.
A larger speed transmission is more expensive to manufacture.
Remember CVT transmissions get the best mileage because they have an infinate number of gears. The trick in all of this is to get the tranny to shift smoothly, then it does not matter how mny gears you have!

More gears is only true to a point for better mileage but you can only go with so much OD before the car runs out of power. Then you just add more gears in the middle and they get so close together that must are not needed. If anything more gears do better on smaller engines which have to work harder to move a heavy car or ones with narrow powerbands.

when you have more gears like that there not added all on the end they are all changed they will have shorter starting gears wich means the car will be stronger off the start and then you have the normal gearing range and then youll have a longer od range wich results in better gas mileage i know that every one of you that have a manual tranny tc have wanted a 6th gear on the highway the tc has low enough starting gears but crusing on th highway at 4 grand really hurts the gas tank with another gear you could get considerably better gas mileage i would not be surprised if they add a 6th gear to the tc

i hope m/t dont go away, I would like to learn how to drive one! then I can get a manual, i already drive with my hand on the shifter, anyway....

Its amazing how many transmission experts there are.

...ZF can build a great transmission , but only one-at-a time .
...example : the tranny plant in Batavia , Ohio .
...their CVT for the masses failed .
...hmmmm , product or management?

Since i'm drivin a 5 Spd tC having a 6th gear ain't such a bad idea (for highway cruisin @ 70 MPH around 2-3K RPM), plus changing 4th & 5th to be even shorter...
I'm not claiming to be a tranny expert, but 8 gears seems like its too much (atleast for an under 350HP car).
Manuals will ALWAYS be classic. And I don't see it going away any time soon (even though it might not be made anymore in the future it'll still be around somehow & someway).
I do however see a ton of potential in the CVT design. Perhaps its primarily used in hybrids to save gas, but the concept itself is breakthrough.
In the same way Honda developed Vtec, I see CVT being optimized for high performance applications.

Since i'm drivin a 5 Spd tC having a 6th gear ain't such a bad idea (for highway cruisin @ 70 MPH around 2-3K RPM), plus changing 4th & 5th to be even shorter...
I'm not claiming to be a tranny expert, but 8 gears seems like its too much (atleast for an under 350HP car).
Manuals will ALWAYS be classic. And I don't see it going away any time soon (even though it might not be made anymore in the future it'll still be around somehow & someway).
I do however see a ton of potential in the CVT design. Perhaps its primarily used in hybrids to save gas, but the concept itself is breakthrough.
In the same way Honda developed Vtec, I see CVT being optimized for high performance applications.


I know its a new application n all...but I would hardly call it a breakthrough...its got the same basic principal of a centrifugal clutch on a minibike or go-karts...Manuals will always be around because of their (relative) simplicity and durability...

Since i'm drivin a 5 Spd tC having a 6th gear ain't such a bad idea (for highway cruisin @ 70 MPH around 2-3K RPM), plus changing 4th & 5th to be even shorter...
I'm not claiming to be a tranny expert, but 8 gears seems like its too much (atleast for an under 350HP car).
Manuals will ALWAYS be classic. And I don't see it going away any time soon (even though it might not be made anymore in the future it'll still be around somehow & someway).
I do however see a ton of potential in the CVT design. Perhaps its primarily used in hybrids to save gas, but the concept itself is breakthrough.
In the same way Honda developed Vtec, I see CVT being optimized for high performance applications.


I know its a new application n all...but I would hardly call it a breakthrough...its got the same basic principal of a centrifugal clutch on a minibike or go-karts...Manuals will always be around because of their (relative) simplicity and durability...

I was putting it in the context of "Continuously Variable Transmission" meaning "in theory" continuously optimizing for maximum performance & efficiency.

Mack Trucks (18 wheelers) have anywhere from 5 to 18 gears....

Yes, and they have engines that make maximum torque at 1300RPM and are governed to a maximum of 2100RPM:

http://www.cummins.com/na/pages/en/products/trucks/ism.cfm

They have that many gears because you need that many gears to get up to speed with such a narrow RPM range. They are also a pain to shift.

The Eaton Autoshift 18-speed is a pretty cool piece of hardware, though. 18 speeds forward, four speeds reverse, all automated except that a clutch has to be used to start and stop.

For a car with a much better power-weight ratio, any more than 5 speeds is either for smoothness if in an automatic or as manhood extension if manual.

I agree all those gears just arent needed in a car. They just become too close together and its pointless to use them all. You can only go so low for 1st gear to where its useless and too high for the top gear where you cant make enough power to use it at a normal speed. The tC could use a 6 speed since 3.5k on the highway isnt the best for mileage after that its just a waste though.

Since i'm drivin a 5 Spd tC having a 6th gear ain't such a bad idea (for highway cruisin @ 70 MPH around 2-3K RPM), plus changing 4th & 5th to be even shorter...
I'm not claiming to be a tranny expert, but 8 gears seems like its too much (atleast for an under 350HP car).
Manuals will ALWAYS be classic. And I don't see it going away any time soon (even though it might not be made anymore in the future it'll still be around somehow & someway).
I do however see a ton of potential in the CVT design. Perhaps its primarily used in hybrids to save gas, but the concept itself is breakthrough.
In the same way Honda developed Vtec, I see CVT being optimized for high performance applications.

CVT has been used for a while in Japan and are in hybrids today. Along with the Nissan Murano. I must say that CVT is the Murano is very soft. Even though the CVT is infinite "gears" because its kind of like a pulley system there seems to be a downside. I think that this is only isolated to murano's because when you turn the handle at certain speeds not sure if its accelerating or decelerating, there is a great power lose to the steering and it because very hard work to turn the steering wheel. I think that there is a small difference in feel between a automatic 5sp and a CVT. I have never driven or been in a car with auto 6sp but I would safely assume that 6 or 7 gears made properly would give the feel of a CVT transmission. Just my thoughts.

I agree all those gears just arent needed in a car. They just become too close together and its pointless to use them all. You can only go so low for 1st gear to where its useless and too high for the top gear where you cant make enough power to use it at a normal speed. The tC could use a 6 speed since 3.5k on the highway isnt the best for mileage after that its just a waste though.

It could just as easily be a 5-speed with wider ratio spacing.

The reason that Toyota doesn't do that is because there is a driver expectation that if they hit the gas, even in top gear, that they will feel some acceleration. If they don't feel enough response the driver perception is that the car lacks power.

George

True. If I could choose I would just add a 6th gear and use 5th to pass but I know most people would agree with you and not feel like the extra work. Anything more than 6 gears is pointless on a car though.

from leftlanenews (http://www.leftlanenews.com/?p=244)
Toyota and powertrain specialist Aisin are reportedly working on automatic transmissions with “more than seven” speeds. The current automatic leader in terms of the greatest number of gear ratios is Mercedes, with its 7G-tronic seven-speed transmission. When it comes to manual transmissions, the leader is BMW, with its seven-speed sequential-manual transmission. Toyota is “looking at automatics with more speeds, especially for the premium market,” Kazuhiko Miyadera, R&D executive vice president at Toyota Motor Engineering and Manufacturing Europe said in an interview. “Mercedes and ZF both have seven speeds already,” testing engineer Bertram Kurz said. “So there would be little point in us only doing that.”

man i don't think there is enough road to go thru 8 speeds i hardly use fitht gear :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

from leftlanenews (http://www.leftlanenews.com/?p=244)
Toyota and powertrain specialist Aisin are reportedly working on automatic transmissions with “more than seven” speeds. The current automatic leader in terms of the greatest number of gear ratios is Mercedes, with its 7G-tronic seven-speed transmission. When it comes to manual transmissions, the leader is BMW, with its seven-speed sequential-manual transmission. Toyota is “looking at automatics with more speeds, especially for the premium market,” Kazuhiko Miyadera, R&D executive vice president at Toyota Motor Engineering and Manufacturing Europe said in an interview. “Mercedes and ZF both have seven speeds already,” testing engineer Bertram Kurz said. “So there would be little point in us only doing that.”

man i don't think there is enough road to go thru 8 speeds i hardly use fitht gear :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Two words for everyone that seems to think you cannot use 8 gears in a passenger car...GEAR RATIOS...I could say more, but I would just get more people to argue with me lol

German cars have more gears because they have the roads to use them. When I lived in Hamburg it was not uncommon for me to cruise at 160 mph (200km an hour) I found that I used the tiptronic feature often on the autobahn, giving the vehicle a sportier and precise control over the vehicle. I do not believe that 8 speed transmissions are necessary in America, but in Germany where cars are able to stretch their feet and show their true engineering they would, and do, have more of a market and practical use. You also do not find many Asian vehicles on the autobahn as they tend to be much more economical/reliable and lack the minute attention to detail and structural integrity it takes to drive over 150mph on a daily commute day in and day out.

More gears allow you to increase acceleration without reducing top speed and vice versa.... what? you think it'd be all about "oh i have more gears than you".....please
In in all probability, this would be a smg or sportshift transmission, not a regular automatic

speaking of 8 Speeds... there is an 8speed corvette at SEMA ... in the proving grounds. It was a mystery car as no one knew anything about it.

I can see an SMG transmission with 8speeds and that would be one monsterous beast.

i
The fact is, we are seeing the last round of manual transmissions. Automatics have become so good that they are surpassing manuals in mileage. The only fault they have is a lag in downshifting because they cannot react until the driver hits the gas. When this problem is licked, the manual shift lever will become as obsolete as the spark advance lever and choke buttons.

George <--whose xB is probably the last stick shift he will own.

I respectfully disagree. Many people will continue to want the control and direct connection to the driveline (as opposed to a loosey-goosey unresponsive torque converter.

I could see SMG style transmissions and CVT's becoming the standard in the future, but the traditional automatic is just as doomed as you seem to think the manual is. The manual transmission offers some definite advantages over all the others to driving enthusiasts, whereas the traditional automatic, no matter how refined they've become, is an overly complex, power robbing system fraught with compromises. I would be less surprised to see manual transmissions, SMG and CVTs remain and the old-fashioned slushbox to be relegated to city busses and big trucks where it belongs.

Manuals make up less than 10% of new cars and it goes down every year. They will be gone off of everything but sports cars in a few years because Amercans are lazy. I wish it wasnt true because I bought the tC because I could get a manual. Many cars that do come with them are in such a low volume that its almost impossible to find without a long wait while you or a dealer looks at many dealers to find one.

Thats in the U.S.

I know they are declining in popularity though, but I don't think they are going to disappear for at least another 25-30 years. SMG is an acceptable substitute. Something with a solid connection to the powertrain. A slushbox is NOT an acceptable alternative, even if it has 19 speeds. If it has a torque converter then there will always be lag and lack of precision. 'Autosticks' are a joke, only SMG type transmissions can realistically replace the manual and they have a long way to come down in price before they will be available enough.