But there are cars on the market that cost a lot less than even the cheapest hybrids yet get fuel economy that is double that of most SUVs and, in some cases, is close to what some hybrids achieve. ...
Scion xA: The xA was one of the first two vehicles Toyota released under the Scion name when the youth sub-brand made its debut in 2004, and the car continues in the expanded lineup for 2006. It is built on the chassis of the Toyota Echo subcompact, which has been discontinued for 2006. The car is economical to buy and operate, thanks to a starting price under $13,500 and EPA fuel-economy ratings of 32 mpg city/37 highway with manual transmission or 31/38 for automatics.
Scion xB: For those who need an SUV but with great fuel economy and a decent price, the Scion xB is a good choice. It looks a lot like the Honda Element, which came out two years ago about the same time the xB was being introduced only in California. But the xB is much cooler-looking and a nicer vehicle overall. The xB is EPA-rated at 30 mpg city and 34 highway. And you can buy one starting at about $15,000, with a fully loaded model running under $19,000.
lalagimp
10-30-2005, 05:27 PM
The xB is NOT an SUV! It's a wagon. How many times does that need make known?
I would love if they threw that in there; functionality of an SUV with the economy of the family wagon :lol:
I would rather stick with my xA than get a hybrid. At least with a soley combustible fuel source I will get consistent readings in my MPG/tank. It also has more power than the hybrid compacts.
I'm curious if anyone knows what you would actually get for readings if you took a hybrid out on a road trip say from SoCal to NorCal and check if the xA is really that far off on the highway.
KingofScion
10-30-2005, 05:41 PM
lalagimp, the Prius is the smallest hybird total makes and it has 295 pounds or torque, and youve got 105.... While I agree that xA is a better economy buy than a Prius, I'd drag race a Prius vs. a xA any day of the week.
lalagimp
10-30-2005, 07:08 PM
I think I had the Civic in mind when I made that statement- I saw something around 89 HP last time I looked up the hybrid vehicles.
Just where do you come up with the comparable torque numbers? - Edmunds shows them (Prius/Scion-Toyotas)neck and neck as well as horsepower.
Toyota and Honda's hybrids main advantage is PZEV or partial zero emissions vehicle status. This sort of status is far more important than MPG. You can get a lot of MPG from a diesel but the emissions that comes out of the diesel hurts the environment more. Of note, the xB is only rated as LEV. After LEV, there is ULEV, SULEV, SULEVII, then I think PZEV. :eyebrow:
Voltairecim
10-30-2005, 10:19 PM
I would totally take an xB or an xA over a Prius, the Scions have this thing called an engine. Its supposed to be really neat.
milehibox
10-30-2005, 10:49 PM
I think I had the Civic in mind when I made that statement- I saw something around 89 HP last time I looked up the hybrid vehicles.
Just where do you come up with the comparable torque numbers? - Edmunds shows them (Prius/Scion-Toyotas)neck and neck as well as horsepower.
Just because it's in Edmunds or any auto publication, doesn't mean it's accurate. With the gasoline and electric motors plus the hybrid's battery source, the TOTAL torque output is almost 300ft lbs. If you've taken the time to even drive a 05 or 06 Prius you'd know it has way more torque than any standard xA/xB Scion on the road.
bubblemyster
10-30-2005, 10:56 PM
civic is ULEV and i think tC is ULEV as well.
mfbenson
10-31-2005, 12:51 AM
While I agree that xA is a better economy buy than a Prius, I'd drag race a Prius vs. a xA any day of the week.
Prius 0-60: 12.7
xA 0-60: 8.40
I'll take that bet. (The prius is not geared to take advantage of all that torque).
Although, the Honda Insight can can 0-60 in 11.2 in sport mode, and 13.2 in drive mode. Knocking two seconds off at the touch of a button is pretty slick.
SimplifiedScion
10-31-2005, 01:30 AM
The older prius had a modified 1nz-fe motor for the gasoline engine. i bet it's just a detuned version of what we have for our scions.
Gortok
10-31-2005, 01:59 AM
civic is ULEV and i think tC is ULEV as well.
That's correct. :)
x_rayted711
10-31-2005, 02:24 AM
From what I've been able to research, the Prius has the same motor as the Scions...except that the intake valves stay open LONGER on the prius(Adkinson motor) to help with the higher MPG. It causes a severe power loss, but the electric motor makes up for the loss. I hear a few people saying to drop a Prius motor in an xB. but from what I can see, they are the same, other than the ECU and cams...please correct me if I'm wrong, because I want to know the differences too.
farberio
10-31-2005, 04:01 AM
While I agree that xA is a better economy buy than a Prius, I'd drag race a Prius vs. a xA any day of the week.
Prius 0-60: 12.7
xA 0-60: 8.40
I'll take that bet. (The prius is not geared to take advantage of all that torque).
Although, the Honda Insight can can 0-60 in 11.2 in sport mode, and 13.2 in drive mode. Knocking two seconds off at the touch of a button is pretty slick.
Take the prius now, but when the next generation of hybrids come out based on the planetary gear system, they will be wicked fast.
Like the Lexus 400h, it has a V6 and its stronger and faster then a V8.
Performance whether we like it or not is going the way of hybrids. With the planetary gear system, you don't have a 'horsepower/tourqe' curve, all the power is at the wheels as you are pressing the gas pedal. So basically, instead of waiting till 5k to hit the powerband, you just have it at anypoint you want. And there is no transmission so you won't have to worry about shifting correctly.
sciontc_mich
10-31-2005, 05:28 AM
10 years ago lots of cars got mid 30's.. then they started disappearing.. and replaced with hybrids.. but what's funny is that those older cars did it without all that expensive technology AND were LEV (low emission vehicles).. to me it's more marketing trying to be forced into hybrids if you want the fuel economy, when regular engines did it just fine.. I'm not against progress, but I'd expect MUCH better than what we had 10 years ago.. to me it's just marketing..
i am glad that there are xA's and xB's out there that get great mileage without all those "extras"..
BOOST4Doors
10-31-2005, 03:39 PM
Hybrids do have its advantages but since the technology is fairly new and isn't will wide accepted by most which in time it will be. I still prefer combustion engines but hybrids just provide a enviromentally friendly option. Car manufacturers also get a nice incentive by the government to produce and develope vehicles that use alternative methods of power.
blastedat9
10-31-2005, 04:03 PM
the 295 lb ft of torque for the prius is really misleading. the prius's electric motor (like all electric motors) produces a huge amount of torque at very very low rpms. once it gets into the rpm band that cars typically use, the torque gains from adding the electric motor fall pretty fast. the 0-60 times prove it, an xA would smoke a prius easily.
lakeshorescion
10-31-2005, 04:43 PM
the 295 lb ft of torque for the prius is really misleading. the prius's electric motor (like all electric motors) produces a huge amount of torque at very very low rpms. once it gets into the rpm band that cars typically use, the torque gains from adding the electric motor fall pretty fast. the 0-60 times prove it, an xA would smoke a prius easily.
That's why Toyota doesn't quote a system torque rating along with their system HP rating, since you can't really calculate a peak torque figure. By the way, Motor Trend (motortrend.com) quotes 0-60 in 9.4 for the xA 5-spd. and 9.8 for Prius.
George
11-01-2005, 04:31 AM
Toyota and Honda's hybrids main advantage is PZEV or partial zero emissions vehicle status. This sort of status is far more important than MPG. You can get a lot of MPG from a diesel but the emissions that comes out of the diesel hurts the environment more. Of note, the xB is only rated as LEV. After LEV, there is ULEV, SULEV, SULEVII, then I think PZEV. :eyebrow:
And all of these produce exhaust so clean that people have tried to commit suicide by the old "pipe the exhaust into the window" technique and had to give up trying! The exhaust had enough oxygen to sustain life and no poisons at all!
The alphabet soup is just a way for the smog czars to justify their existence. They keep coming up with new ratings, but the bare fact is that half of a negligible number is still negligible.
The "partial zero" rating is particularly silly, because it doesn't really mean what it says. VW has a PZEV Jetta that has a conventional gasoline engine, no hybrid drive at all.
Of course, here in California, folks with PZEV vehicles are eligible to put "eco-snob" stickers all over their cars so they can drive alone in the carpool lanes. :roll:
George
11-01-2005, 04:41 AM
While I agree that xA is a better economy buy than a Prius, I'd drag race a Prius vs. a xA any day of the week.
Prius 0-60: 12.7
xA 0-60: 8.40
I'll take that bet. (The prius is not geared to take advantage of all that torque).
Although, the Honda Insight can can 0-60 in 11.2 in sport mode, and 13.2 in drive mode. Knocking two seconds off at the touch of a button is pretty slick.
Take the prius now, but when the next generation of hybrids come out based on the planetary gear system, they will be wicked fast.
Umm, the Prius _does_ have a planetary drive system, as does every car with an automatic transmission!.
The Prius also has traction control, but unlike the Scions it cannot be turned off. There is a "hack" to turn it off, but that comes with a caution that the full torque of the electric motor without traction control might damage the drivetrain.
I know from experience that a Prius is as quick as an xB, at least up to 40MPH or so. I could probably beat it if I was willing to go to redline in each gear, but that's not what an xB is all about.
Chillaxin206
11-01-2005, 11:11 PM
I'd rather drive the box than the space ship. Environmentally safer cars don't shouldn't have to look like crap. Let's not forget too....the prius is more aerodynamic than the box.
400amonth
11-04-2005, 05:45 PM
I think I had the Civic in mind when I made that statement- I saw something around 89 HP last time I looked up the hybrid vehicles.
Just where do you come up with the comparable torque numbers? - Edmunds shows them (Prius/Scion-Toyotas)neck and neck as well as horsepower.
Just because it's in Edmunds or any auto publication, doesn't mean it's accurate. With the gasoline and electric motors plus the hybrid's battery source, the TOTAL torque output is almost 300ft lbs. If you've taken the time to even drive a 05 or 06 Prius you'd know it has way more torque than any standard xA/xB Scion on the road.
I have drove one and they have impressive torque.
hambug
11-05-2005, 02:40 AM
I wonder why they did not make a Xb hybrid, after all I'm sure the Prius drive train/engine etc could be worked out. It could have been the first hybrid mini-mini van.
emiller
11-05-2005, 11:14 PM
I think that right now hybrids are over rated. The mileage isnt much better than a small gas or desiel 4 cylinder in a light weight car. Those cars are usually very cheap especially with a manual trans. Hybrids cost several thousand more than other cars of similar size. Until they become higher volume cars the prices wont go down much. Maybe if you got a tax break on it more people would consider them and that could help get more of them out there and help prices go down and also become profitable for the car companies.
George
11-07-2005, 02:44 AM
I wonder why they did not make a Xb hybrid, after all I'm sure the Prius drive train/engine etc could be worked out. It could have been the first hybrid mini-mini van.
Umm, because the xB was a minimal cost rework of a JDM econobox to allow Toyota to launch its new youth brand?
Not that I'm complaining, as that is the car I wanted.
Still, would sales of a $21K sticker hybrid xB be as good as the conventional xB? I really doubt it.
mfbenson
11-07-2005, 03:00 AM
Toyota has said that all cars they make will have a hybrid version available as an option, I've assumed that means Scion and Lexus too.
It doesn't need to sell as well.
George
11-08-2005, 12:23 AM
Toyota has said that all cars they make will have a hybrid version available as an option, I've assumed that means Scion and Lexus too.
It doesn't need to sell as well.
The key word in that statement is "will".
Let's assume that you could get a hybrid xB at a $3000 premium. Would it be worth it? Let's crunch some numbers:
Standard xB: 16,000
Hybrid xB: 19,000
Real World Mileage of stock xB: 28MPG
Real World Mileage of Hybrid xB: 45MPG
I know that the EPA sticker says 60 on a Prius, but the EPA test is fooled by the fact that the hybrid operates with the engine off at times. Real world Prius owners report 45MPG, so I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the lesser aerodynamics of the xB and use the same number.
OK, let's say that you plan on owning your xB for 100,000 miles, after which it has negligible value.
100,000/28=3571 gallons
100,000/45=2222 gallons
So, you save about 1350 gallons or about 3500 dollars at current SoCal gas prices.
So far, you are about $500 ahead
Not bad, but of course you also have to account for the value of the extra money tied up in the car. Figure $3000 in a reasonably conservative investment for the 6 year ownership of the car would yield about 5% per year ($150) or about $900.
Now you are $400 behind.
So, it's pretty much a wash. However, I have been particularly optomistic about the hybrid's performance and service. If some of the hybrid drivetrain parts (including the $$$ battery pack) go south, then you could be way behind. There aren't so many risks with the conventional drivetrain. You could also get quicker payback if the price of gas goes up, but it is already near its historical (adjusted for inflation), high. Such spikes have in the past dropped back down to a level well below their maximums.
Resale value is another thing. A Toyota with 100K miles on it should be readily saleable, but if hybrids get a reputation for needing a $3000 battery pack around 120K miles you won't be able to give them away after 100K. Until the real-world battery life is determined, people are going to be wary of hybrids with 100K+ miles.
George
Gortok
11-08-2005, 04:02 AM
^^^
Yeah...what he said...
mfbenson
11-08-2005, 04:07 AM
Honda Insights have been on the roads since '99. Isn't that long enough to gain at least some knowledge of how well battery packs hold up?
A new pack costs $1226.75, and is warranted to last 8 years or 80,000 miles.
So figure another $153.35 in annualized maintenence (if you drive only 10K/year) for the hybrids, or another 61 gallons of gas. (at $2.50/gallon).
In my tC the 10,000 miles would take about 400 gallons of gas, in a 50 mpg hybrid the 10k miles would take 200 gallons of gas. But after deducting the 61 gallons its still like saving about 139 gallons of gas a year.
Also,
Figure $3000 in a reasonably conservative investment for the 6 year ownership of the car would yield about 5% per year ($150) or about $900.
that only applies to people who bought their car cash up front. If you're like most of us, you have to finance the car. So people should be dinged on this one twice, once for the opportunity cost of a foregone investment, and then again for however much the interest charges on the loan are.
Anyhow, right now its pretty clear that buying a hybrid solely for the reason of trying to save money doesn't add up, but it should also be clear that the economics of it are gradually shifting to the hybrid's favor. But people buying a hybrid aren't totally looking for a purely logical vehicle - for them, there's an emotional connection to it just like there is for someone who buys a sports car or a 4x4.
George
11-09-2005, 12:09 AM
Honda Insights have been on the roads since '99. Isn't that long enough to gain at least some knowledge of how well battery packs hold up?
A new pack costs $1226.75, and is warranted to last 8 years or 80,000 miles.
So figure another $153.35 in annualized maintenence (if you drive only 10K/year) for the hybrids, or another 61 gallons of gas. (at $2.50/gallon).
The Prius pack has 38 6-cell Ni-MH modules, as compared to the 20 in the Insight, so the cost would be a bit less than twice that of the Insight's pack. I was also figuring on a more realistic 15,000 mi/year.
Biznox
12-05-2005, 05:54 PM
The xB is NOT an SUV! It's a wagon. How many times does that need make known?
I would love if they threw that in there; functionality of an SUV with the economy of the family wagon :lol:
Technically, according to the EPA and DOT, the xB is an "MPV" or Multi-Purpose Vehicle. And guess what, that is same classification that all SUV's fall into. :doh:
That is why the xB is allowed to have the rear 3/4 glass tinted from the factory. Ever notice the only vehicles you see with that are SUV's and minivans? That's because they both fall under the "MPV" classification and are thereby allowed to have factory installed tinted glass.
Wagons, sedans and the rest are not allowed to come with factory tint because tint laws vary from state-to-state and any tint is illegal in some places (like Washington DC)