Topic The XB (FB or FBSS)

The Discussion.. Anyone running FBSS and has body alignment issues?

After Almost a Year, I am Started to notice the rear doors are slowly starting to stick out near the bottom from the body lines.. Anyone else noticing this? I love the Side-2-Side action but I beleive its slowly warping the box.

Now in My situation I only use side to side when riding around or showing off.. I never leave the box dumped to one side at shows or while parking, So its not like im leaving unneeded stress on the body for long periods of time..

What are your thoughts? I am really considereing dropping back to 4 valves.

Now I already know the difference between running 4 or 8 valves as far as load is concerned, Im mainly itnerested to see who is running what and for the FBSS boxs are they noticing slight differences in body lines.

Well... I could care less about side to side, but 8 valves is the only way to go as far as I am concerned. If for nothing else than to prevent side to side air transfer when driving.

If you are truly concerned about boy flex, there are steps you can take to prevent it. First and foremost would be bracing. Luckily this is a bolt on affair with the xB. Get yourself a good strut tower brace for the front and a shock tower brace for the rear. That should help eliminate some of the flex.

If that isn't enough, begin looking into a full roll cage. As ridiculous as this may sound, it may be your only option if you insist on playing with your sides. Yes, even if it is only at shows.

When the wife's box is bagged, it will have 8 valves. And in the beginning it won't have any additional bracing. Why? Because the only time either of us will be hitting "sides" is to adjust the vehicle to make it level.

There you have my 2 cents.

i say the same thing rt said

I run 8 valves and hit side to side once in a while and haven't had any problems.

But sticking doors sound more like a front to back chassis problem(even if its that major, maybe doors just need adjusted). That doesn't sound like a problem from side to side to me. More like the chassis saggin in the middle between the tires, at the B pillar. But I'd think warp bad enough to cause a door to stick out would cause sheet metal to noticable warp(ie: roof?). Door gaps would be getting weird too, if its sticking out at the bottom, does it sink in at the top?

BTW You don't run a huge sunroof or a giant wall of subs in the back do you?

Wow this doesn't sound good ... i hope it's not because of the valves because i plan on running 8 for the what RT said ...

As I've said in another Airride post, the bags for FB have been on for over 35000 miles. Daily driven, lots of shows. Back and forth to Cali a few times as well. No door gaps, no weird flexing. No strut towers either. Its been driven everyway possible as well. I dont think the gaps are from FB bags.

The reality is having 8 valves (FBSS) installed shouldn't cause the conditions the original poster is seeing either. Unless of course the vehicle is being thoroughly abused. In which case, I wouldn't be surprised to see a unibody car as light as an xB begin to flex.

The trade offs of cost savings with running 4 valves just aren't worth it to me. Spending an extra $120-$150 dollars to prevent side to side air transfer and poor handling is completely worth it. I don't think I could ever conceive of running only 4 valves on a complete air suspension installation. Not even on a show only vehicle.

I still dont know why people think you get bad handling with only 4 valves. Once the airride went on the xB is way more sturdy. I get no noticable shifting or air transfer when cornering. The increase in traction was well noticed as well. I just think this arguement of air transfer is over done. My previous daily driver was a built first gen Toyota Mr2 that was made for twisty roads. This xB doesnt handle as well as that mid engined car but it definately handles its own. The only time I could claim some loss is on "s" curves when you shift the weight from a hard left to a hard right..but even then, it needs to be an extreme shift to notice.

I'm not convinced.

You don't have to be convinced. It really doesn't matter. But I have been dealing with pneumatic suspension systems since about '97. The fact is, with only 4 valves you get side to side air transfer. That essentially means your load rating on the air springs mean squat.

The affect this transfer can have on a vehicle is magnified as you use larger diameter air line. The smaller the airline, the slower the air can transfer from one bag to another. So running smaller air line can help. The reality though, is using only 4 valves kind of defeats the purpose of having a real suspension at all. If all you want to do is go up and down, you might as well go buy hydraulics.

I ran 8 valves on my car when the air was in it.

The other thing I notice on the xB...I have a total of 2psi changes for full up and full down. 2psi shifting from one side of the xB to the other. That 2psi is minimal on the impact of suspension travel on our car. I don't doubt you RT for other heavier vehicles but I dont think a MAXIMUM of 2 psi shifting is going to make an impact on our vehicle. Plus, our shocks/struts still take the majority of the load, as well as sway bars and strut bars. If there is any shifting that could be impactful on the handling of scion xB's its negated with other suspension components.

wouldn't only 2 valves for the front end be bad though? i mean for steering having the air transfer etc.

wouldn't only 2 valves for the front end be bad though? i mean for steering having the air transfer etc.

no.

I run 8 valves and hit side to side once in a while and haven't had any problems.

But sticking doors sound more like a front to back chassis problem(even if its that major, maybe doors just need adjusted). That doesn't sound like a problem from side to side to me. More like the chassis saggin in the middle between the tires, at the B pillar. But I'd think warp bad enough to cause a door to stick out would cause sheet metal to noticable warp(ie: roof?). Door gaps would be getting weird too, if its sticking out at the bottom, does it sink in at the top?

BTW You don't run a huge sunroof or a giant wall of subs in the back do you?


Nope No Subs or Sun roof

The Top of the Door is Sunk in while the bottom sticks out a little bit..

Its not a major issue I was just mainly seeing what others are running and there experiences..

I was just doing this to see what everyone else is running..

As far the Air Transfer issue I can easily run 8 valves and not have S2S..

The Air Transfer thing is not an issue here. so its not worth bickering over..


Thanks for everyone else's opnions and answers

it seemed like my doors started closing "differently" when I had air on for awhile. Ive been back to springs and now coilovers and it doesnt have any problems.. I did notice my doors closed differently when the car was dumped opposed to lifted...

The other thing I notice on the xB...I have a total of 2psi changes for full up and full down. 2psi shifting from one side of the xB to the other. That 2psi is minimal on the impact of suspension travel on our car. I don't doubt you RT for other heavier vehicles but I dont think a MAXIMUM of 2 psi shifting is going to make an impact on our vehicle. Plus, our shocks/struts still take the majority of the load, as well as sway bars and strut bars. If there is any shifting that could be impactful on the handling of scion xB's its negated with other suspension components.

I am not going to make one of several comments running through my head right now. I don't want to turn this thread into some kind of _____ fest, just because someone takes something I say the wrong way.

So, I'll keep it as simple as this...

If you REALLY think that your struts and your sway bare have load carrying characteristics, I want you to try something for me. Let's just say we are testing out your theory. Go out to your xB, jack it up and remove the air bags. You can reinstall the struts without the air bags installed. Once you are done, take the car off of the jack stands.

Now, how much load carrying capacity do those struts and sway bar have? If you still aren't convinced, go ahead and take your car for a ride. (Note: I am not responsible if someone is actually foolish enough to try this.)

For the hundredth time, struts, shocks and sway bars have ZERO load carrying capacity.

Sorry, I wasnt clear enough in my previous description.
When I said "majority of load" i meant the force applied at cornering. One strut compresses, while the other expands to balance out the force and keep the vehicle somewhat level. The sway bars act to keep suspension components level and balanced as well, keeping things from shifting. This is what I meant in my post.

I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to figure out why everyone believes f/b setups are so inferior when, with our car, its not that big of a deal because of weight issues(or lack there of).

The pressure difference of when the load changes isnt great enough to merit the air shifting from one side to the other to greatly effect the car's handling as much as some believe. Yes, it DOES affect it, but with a 2400lb box with the struts, swaybars, and the structural rigidity we have, I believe its a moot point in claiming that f/b is so much worse for corners/handling than f/b/s/s.

Now, speak about say, a truck with a solid axle, a caprice classic thats a pig for weight, or a semi truck that ways TONS, I believe the transfer of pressure between each bag could adversely affect handling.

Gravy? I hope i stated myself better this time! :)

Now, the one Positive thing about F/B/S/S bags that I WOULD like, is weight balancing. My front right bag fills a moment slower than the left, thus the passenger side is always a tad low. This means when i drive down the street in "low mode" the passenger side is always slightly lower. I figure thats why I have messed up this set up fenders 2 times already. :p It also means my headlights are slightly tweaked. Just another thing to adjust.

your still implying that the struts and sway carry some sort of load handeling ability, that a strut will reach a point where its rebound will counteract the centrifugal forces applied during corning...other then slowing down and smoothing the transfer of weight side to side (or up and down) it will eventually reach full compression. As the vehicle corners and the strut compresses it offers very little rebound (ie load handeling) that is the coil or airsprings job.

Centrifugal force causes the vehicle to lean to the outside of the turn and in a FB setup eventually the strut and airspring will be fully compressed...where did that air go? it transfers to the inside bag...whereas a FBSS setup has the extra valving to block this transfer.

If i can lean on a strut and compress it I am sure a 2400lb box thrown into a sharp curve will make short order of it.

Your right with your comparison of vehicles with more mass amplifing this effect, but it is still present in any 4 valve setup.

Is a FB setup livalble? most definatley...but it doesn't offer the handling and stability of a 8 valve setup.

not flaming, not trying to be a d!ck...just couldnt sleep. :yawn:

This is what I'm talking about.

Basically what I think is that under "regular" or "spirited" driving you should never hit full compression of your strut or air spring. When you do your screwed anyways.

ex: You've yanked your wheel hard one way at 100mph...assuming you got the xB to 100mph and decided this yank was needed.

Anyways, that pressure transfer of 2psi could make a difference in that "special" circumstance, but I dont think that circumstance is possible under "regular/spirited" driving.

I've never heard of hitting full strut compression with halfway decent struts on road use. MAYBE an off-camber hard right at 45+mph with fat people in the xB..but even then.. :)

AirRide gave me the option of 5 way adjustables. They are adjusted to 4 (firmer) and I havent felt the strut bottom out. When that happens they need to be replaced anyways cause you have blown the strut or its used up anyways.

Heck, I think if you got some decent tires on the xB you would never even notice a difference in handling between a 4 valve and 8 valve system. The grip on the tires would be enough to compensate for the difference in pressure.

I'm with you Lance. Not flaming or whatever...Just discussing what I think.

I think the myth of a F/B setup being THAT MUCH worse than a F/B/S/S needs to be killed though. I agree that there is a difference, but its VERY minimal and wouldn't be noticable on daily drivers/spirited driving except under that "perfect cicumstance."

The struts have very little to do with side-to-side transfer. That is mostly springs and sway bars. I can't prove it but I would think an exit ramp at 60 would be terrifying in a car with only 4 valves. Maybe the sway bars and solid rear end are enough to keep it from being too scary.

All a shock or strut does is damper. (Makes the springs quit bouncing). 4 valves may work for a lot of reasons but shocks or struts aren’t the reason they may work ok. For your argument to work, you shocks would have to get harder to push down as you turn, which they don’t. I agree that you continue to use reasoning that would make the strut a load bearing part, which its not.

F/B is most likely ok for normal driving. But I think it would end ugly if you had to make evasive maneuvers at interstate speeds. You may only have a 2-psi transfer with a normal turn, but I’d bet that transfer could get insanely high in a hard turn under heavy braking.

Also 2 pressure gauges installed in the same vessel at different places maybe giving false reading. I am not sure why, but this doesn’t seem like a very accurate way to test it.

this is the kinda of crap that gives air a bad name. i have fbss and have been on air for over a year with my xb and put 20000 miles on my suspension without having the first problem.

and common sense tells you if the left and right side bags are connected then the air is giong to flow from side to side no matter what you may think. (by the way this is my first rodeo ethier)

Very excellent posts from Spider and Lance. Scion1616 as well.

I won't go into some long diatribe here. Instead I'll make one simple point, and leave it at that.

You can do things right, or you can take short cuts. It is your choice.

You can do things right, or you can take short cuts. It is your choice.

smartest thing i have heard on here yet. :clap:

Very excellent posts from Spider and Lance. Scion1616 as well.

I won't go into some long diatribe here. Instead I'll make one simple point, and leave it at that.

You can do things right, or you can take short cuts. It is your choice.

My s10 ran on 4 SMC valves FB only / Nitrogen with Air Back up and Fully Copper Ran hardlined And I never had an issue with driving even under hard conering.

With a Good Combination of Shocks and Struts you will notice a huge difference. We mounted two rear shocks in frame of the s10 front and rear and it rode very smooth and handled great and I could still lay the frame out and drag the blocks off of it

If your going out and AutoXing your xb with air ride then more power to you but I bet most if not everyone ive met with air ride doesnt drive there vehicle like that..

Here is the basic statement

With a 4 Valve setup there is transfer of air from side to side which will lower handling abilities.. True!

With an 8 valve setup there is no xfer of air which aids in better handling. True!

As far as taking shortcuts becuase you want to use 4 valves versus 8.. :no:

Look at majority of the old school hot rods on air. Alot of them Ive seen use 4 valves or even 2 2way valves, some manual some electric. and I know several people around town that uses 4 without a problem.

Besides go look at any place who sells air ride kits.. They Sell F,B and F,B,S,S Kits.

So the statement that using 4 is not the correct way to do air ride is simply your opinion and mindset and although I respect your opinions, the way you want to run air ride may not be the way others want to run theres and a comment like that is unnessacary. :nope:

i never disagree that u can run front to back just fine. but i know that fbss will not hurt your car or truck because that is all i have had with no problems.

i never disagree that u can run front to back just fine. but i know that fbss will not hurt your car or truck because that is all i have had with no problems.

And I never said you disagreed.

But you did agree with RT on his statement that 4 valves is incorrect way to do things which that statement alone is misleading to others who may want air ride.

Ive had both 4 valve setups and 8 valve setups with no problems..

but the scion being as fragile as it is compared to other cars Im starting to See the doors come out of alignment with running S2S. Now most everyday its just get in and drive and I only use S2S on occasion but the setup Im running is extremly fast for an xb and its causing issues with the body as well as the doors.

I plan on putting some Speed Reducers on my Dump valvees to slow it down in order to minimize the stress when I do S2S.


Back top my topic I was wanting to know if anyone running 8 valves and uses S2S has noticed any body flex or mis alignment because of it.

The issue on topic was never about Air Xfer until RT brought it up

Very excellent posts from Spider and Lance. Scion1616 as well.

I won't go into some long diatribe here. Instead I'll make one simple point, and leave it at that.

You can do things right, or you can take short cuts. It is your choice.

My s10 ran on 4 SMC valves FB only / Nitrogen with Air Back up and Fully Copper Ran hardlined And I never had an issue with driving even under hard conering.

With a Good Combination of Shocks and Struts you will notice a huge difference. We mounted two rear shocks in frame of the s10 front and rear and it rode very smooth and handled great and I could still lay the frame out and drag the blocks off of it

If your going out and AutoXing your xb with air ride then more power to you but I bet most if not everyone ive met with air ride doesnt drive there vehicle like that..

Here is the basic statement

With a 4 Valve setup there is transfer of air from side to side which will lower handling abilities.. True!

With an 8 valve setup there is no xfer of air which aids in better handling. True!

As far as taking shortcuts becuase you want to use 4 valves versus 8.. :no:

Look at majority of the old school hot rods on air. Alot of them Ive seen use 4 valves or even 2 2way valves, some manual some electric. and I know several people around town that uses 4 without a problem.

Besides go look at any place who sells air ride kits.. They Sell F,B and F,B,S,S Kits.

So the statement that using 4 is not the correct way to do air ride is simply your opinion and mindset and although I respect your opinions, the way you want to run air ride may not be the way others want to run theres and a comment like that is unnessacary. :nope:

I am going to play nice and refrain from making comments about the fact that you are an S-10 owner. :)

Can you tell me though what the suspension design was on your S-10? I don't mean to be rude or anything, but that would tell me a lot about what you really know about suspension.

And to be honest, the fact that you used "copper hard line" does not help your cause. Anyone who knows anything about materials, or pneumatic suspension can tell you not to use copper hard line. Stainless steel hard line is fine, but not copper. Copper work hardens and will fail over time. I would sooner run plastic DOT "synflex" than switch to copper just to be "hardlined."

And yes, you are right, you will find a lot of hot rods running "2 way" (FB) suspension set ups. You will also find that these cars aren't really driven. And of course you will find suppliers selling both FB and FBSS kits. Why? Because for the most part, buyers are cheap! Especially tightwad, "I can do it for less" mini truckers.

If you want to hear about the '48 Chevy my brother just got into the custom shop he works at let me know. The original bag job was done by a "Hot Rod Shop" using all Air Ride Technology parts. The whole car has to be redone because of how horrible the install was!

Like I said before, it all boils down to a quality installation.

I am going to play nice and refrain from making comments about the fact that you are an S-10 owner.

:P stfu I liked my s10 :P


Can you tell me though what the suspension design was on your S-10? I don't mean to be rude or anything, but that would tell me a lot about what you really know about suspension.

I used a cantelever / relo shocks front and back / tank/compressor mounted under bed / nitrogen in truck bed / two switch set up / 4 smc valves 1/2 in hard lined all around / Firestone Bags

And to be honest, the fact that you used "copper hard line" does not help your cause. Anyone who knows anything about materials, or pneumatic suspension can tell you not to use copper hard line. Stainless steel hard line is fine, but not copper. Copper work hardens and will fail over time. I would sooner run plastic DOT "synflex" than switch to copper just to be "hardlined."

Agains Boils down to install.. I didnt install the hard line. I later changed it out to Flex tubing when I took the nitrogen off. Its easier to work with and alot less hassle

And yes, you are right, you will find a lot of hot rods running "2 way" (FB) suspension set ups. You will also find that these cars aren't really driven. And of course you will find suppliers selling both FB and FBSS kits. Why? Because for the most part, buyers are cheap! Especially tightwad, "I can do it for less" mini truckers.

I know alot of that do drive every week. But thats a mute point.. If its ok for them then its ok for us. Just you saying its the Cheap way out is what im getting at. Its not the cheap way out its a matter of prefrence

If you want to hear about the '48 Chevy my brother just got into the custom shop he works at let me know. The original bag job was done by a "Hot Rod Shop" using all Air Ride Technology parts. The whole car has to be redone because of how horrible the install was!

Sorry he went through that. Sadly Alot of people dont know what there doing when it comes to air ride.

Like I said before, it all boils down to a quality installation.

No one is discussing installation.. We are talking about 4 valves versus 8.. Installed properly both set ups will give you a good reliable ride. You said 4 valves is a "cheap way out" and your changing the subject to quality of install..

We already know the difference between running 4 or 8 valves and regardless of which way the person wants to run it one is not a cheap way of doing things its just a matter of preference.

Basically what your saying about the install contradicts what you said about taking the cheap way out.. As long as its done right 4 of 8 valves.

end of story.[/b]

I am just discussing this subject, because all I hear on this board and thread is F/B is horrible and should never be done on a daily driven xB. Well, thats an opinion and its not reliable information for people/noobs coming to threads searching for air bag information.

The point I'm trying to make is that F/B is doable and safe in an xB under "typical" driving conditions, as well as "spirited" driving. F/B/S/S is better but is not MANDATORY. You can go other ways.
For someone wanting to slam their xB 4 valves is fine. For an easy system to bleed and problem solve, 4 valves is fine. For daily driving 4 valves are fine. Thats all.

As for struts and forces applied to them I thought I explained myself enough. Oh well.
I give up. My opinion has been heard. :relief:

If I want to go play in the twisties Ill go get a car thats made for it. Not an xB.

I am just discussing this subject, because all I hear on this board and thread is F/B is horrible and should never be done on a daily driven xB. Well, thats an opinion and its not reliable information for people/noobs coming to threads searching for air bag information.

The point I'm trying to make is that F/B is doable and safe in an xB under "typical" driving conditions, as well as "spirited" driving. F/B/S/S is better but is not MANDATORY. You can go other ways.
For someone wanting to slam their xB 4 valves is fine. For an easy system to bleed and problem solve, 4 valves is fine. For daily driving 4 valves are fine. Thats all.

As for struts and forces applied to them I thought I explained myself enough. Oh well.
I give up. My opinion has been heard. :relief:

If I want to go play in the twisties Ill go get a car thats made for it. Not an xB.

AMEN! :clap:

It really isn't the "end of story" just because you say so. 2 Way, F/B, or 4 valve set up (however you would like to refer to it) is nothing less than a cut corner. Will it work? Sure. Is it the right way to do things? No.

And I'll be honest. The very first time I bagged the front of my Dakota I only ran two valves for the front end. And the day after I finished I drove the thing from California to Iowa hauling a U-Haul trailer. And you know what? It didn't fail. I never lost control and drove off a cliff.

Would I do it again? Nope, never. Why did I do it then? I needed to cut some corners. Time was short, as was money. Beyond that, my town was dry. I couldn't have gotten two more valves if I wanted to. I took short cuts then, and I'll never do it on a suspension install again. Some people don't care. Especially on other people's vehicles.

And I never did change my subject. There is really only one reason not to run a full 4 path system (8 valves). That reason is being cheap. Performance is greatly decreased, regardless of the "2 PSI" change someone mentioned in this thread. The fact that pneumatic suspension is dynamic only compounds the issue of weight transfer. And a good installer will ALWAYS discuss this with their client. So all of the points flow together seamlessly. It is all one in the same... cutting corners.

On the other two issues...

The '48 Chevy was not my brother's car. It is some local guy who had his air suspension installed at a "hot rod shop." My brother works at a custom shop and they are working out a plan to fix the previous installation.

The last issue being my question about your S-10 suspension. The one question I have left is really more a matter of clarification. You called your suspension "cantilever." Did you truly have a cantilever suspension design? If so what type of location system (link) did you use? Or was what you had the more typical 2 link? With the bags mounted on the trailing arms for additional leverage and more lift?

you would think that after all the post on s10forum telling the diffrence between "cantilever" and just a lever set up thay would use the right names for there set up like on my body droped dime i had a triagulated 4 link with the bags on the lower bars and that is a type of lever setup

Bags Were mounted behind the wheels on the inside of the frame, connecting bars when lifted by the bags would push up from the axle lifting the frame



And Oneloww I wouldnt know about the s10forum I never joined

so did you have a 6 link and sorry i assomed that you would have only becuse you are on here i thought you may have been on an s10 sight as well

naw i visited the forum once or twice but never signed up.. I didnt have the s10 very long. I got bored with it rather quickly.

i got 8 valves and i never will go back to 4 valves. i know its a little more money and work but if you ever gotta haul around all your friends and some heavy peeps decide to sit on one side, you can always adjust your psi to compensate ur load. i hardly go side to side too though

i got 8 valves and i never will go back to 4 valves. i know its a little more money and work but if you ever gotta haul around all your friends and some heavy peeps decide to sit on one side, you can always adjust your psi to compensate ur load. i hardly go side to side too though

Thanks for the input hamads

Bags Were mounted behind the wheels on the inside of the frame, connecting bars when lifted by the bags would push up from the axle lifting the frame



And Oneloww I wouldnt know about the s10forum I never joined

Maybe I am just slow... but I am still not sure what your rear suspension design was.

Did you have one trailing arm on each side that attached to your stock front leaf spring hanger? And the bags were mounted on that?

If so, that is called a 2 link and is probably one of the WORST suspension "designs" ever conceived by hack job "customizers." No offense to you or your truck.

i read alot of this thread, and then got lost in some bickering ( i think; no pointing fingers though, good points all around)

back to the original question, and then ill follow up with everyone else:

i run an easystreet all around:
8 valve
10switch/4 switch (interchangable)
viair 380c w/a 5gal.
and synflex hosing (1/2", 3/8" valves)

i park my car side to side occasionaly, and have done so at shows, infact i've 'danced' my car fb/s/s at shows w/ luckily no problem.

i agree w/brianxb, ive noticed a difference in how the doors close when lifted/dropped/on angle. other than that though, no real issues ive noticed.

maybe the dampening of the 9way struts up front make me feel like im bouncing when i slow/decelerate like a big rig (similar air ride reaction i guess) i have them set at the least dampening right now, it allows for a smooth up and down.

other topics hit on:
side to side air transfer: ive noticed, (i run dual needle gauges) with my 8 valve setup, on a corner, psi may raise in a side by 10psi or more (freeway onramps) if youdidnt have a "block" between the bags, the air would transfer, maybe not enough to cause issue, but imagine (for those who have side to side) on an onramp curving to the right, dumping air from the driver's side, (improper banking)
again, if you're used to it, no problem.

someone said something to the effect of, "having the valves would serve as a block so no air would transfer" - not true. if you have enough load in one side, the air will transfter back to the tank (if the bag pressure overcomes the tank pressure) and that side will go lower. All valves have a tendancy to leak a little.

sciondrgn - hit me up with that nitrogen information, i might endeavor to do some high psi work (maybe not nitrogen high, but ill pm you)

one thing's for sure, it's better to have 8 valves and not use em, than have 4 and want to do an adjustment that you cant unless you had 8.

i made a 4 switch box that controls independent per wheel, and it's semi useful. but my daily switches are front/rear/all.

im open to q's if need b.

~tesh

www.fotki.com/scionnighthd
www.fotki.com/jugnu03
www.fotki.com/crayonboxin

Bags Were mounted behind the wheels on the inside of the frame, connecting bars when lifted by the bags would push up from the axle lifting the frame



And Oneloww I wouldnt know about the s10forum I never joined

Maybe I am just slow... but I am still not sure what your rear suspension design was.

Did you have one trailing arm on each side that attached to your stock front leaf spring hanger? And the bags were mounted on that?

If so, that is called a 2 link and is probably one of the WORST suspension "designs" ever conceived by hack job "customizers." No offense to you or your truck.


Its a reverse Cantilever essentialy a reverse 4 link with a cantilever lifting for the frame. it was all custom built.

No offense RT but jus quit. seriously. Every post you make is hating on someone else's way of doing things and just about every other post you keep reminding us how long youve been dealing with air suspension.. I personally dont care. Ive made my points, im through bickering with someone who has to think there right all the time .

:eyebrow:

Nice info

i read alot of this thread, and then got lost in some bickering ( i think; no pointing fingers though, good points all around)

back to the original question, and then ill follow up with everyone else:

i run an easystreet all around:
8 valve
10switch/4 switch (interchangable)
viair 380c w/a 5gal.
and synflex hosing (1/2", 3/8" valves)

i park my car side to side occasionaly, and have done so at shows, infact i've 'danced' my car fb/s/s at shows w/ luckily no problem.

i agree w/brianxb, ive noticed a difference in how the doors close when lifted/dropped/on angle. other than that though, no real issues ive noticed.

maybe the dampening of the 9way struts up front make me feel like im bouncing when i slow/decelerate like a big rig (similar air ride reaction i guess) i have them set at the least dampening right now, it allows for a smooth up and down.

other topics hit on:
side to side air transfer: ive noticed, (i run dual needle gauges) with my 8 valve setup, on a corner, psi may raise in a side by 10psi or more (freeway onramps) if youdidnt have a "block" between the bags, the air would transfer, maybe not enough to cause issue, but imagine (for those who have side to side) on an onramp curving to the right, dumping air from the driver's side, (improper banking)
again, if you're used to it, no problem.

someone said something to the effect of, "having the valves would serve as a block so no air would transfer" - not true. if you have enough load in one side, the air will transfter back to the tank (if the bag pressure overcomes the tank pressure) and that side will go lower. All valves have a tendancy to leak a little.

sciondrgn - hit me up with that nitrogen information, i might endeavor to do some high psi work (maybe not nitrogen high, but ill pm you)

one thing's for sure, it's better to have 8 valves and not use em, than have 4 and want to do an adjustment that you cant unless you had 8.

i made a 4 switch box that controls independent per wheel, and it's semi useful. but my daily switches are front/rear/all.

im open to q's if need b.

~tesh

www.fotki.com/scionnighthd
www.fotki.com/jugnu03
www.fotki.com/crayonboxin


Thanks crayon. Excellent post. I am still going to keep my 8 valves and just deal with the body issues as they come along.

A lady ran out in front of me the other day from a red light so now I have a wrecked xb :(

Still waiting on insurance to come throgh so i can get that fixed and there gonna go ahead and realign my doors to while there fixing the body damage

Also Ive got some more tubing and some fittings coming in today along with some Speed Reducers for my valves. Im gonna try to slow down the dump some to see if that will help. Right now its crazy fast

Im running

ES front
FBI + SS bags in rear
GC Extreme 1/2 valves and Line
2 Viar 450's running 175 psi Pressure Switch
One of those Pre-Wired 10 Switch boxes for now

i read alot of this thread, and then got lost in some bickering ( i think; no pointing fingers though, good points all around)

back to the original question, and then ill follow up with everyone else:

i run an easystreet all around:
8 valve
10switch/4 switch (interchangable)
viair 380c w/a 5gal.
and synflex hosing (1/2", 3/8" valves)

i park my car side to side occasionaly, and have done so at shows, infact i've 'danced' my car fb/s/s at shows w/ luckily no problem.

i agree w/brianxb, ive noticed a difference in how the doors close when lifted/dropped/on angle. other than that though, no real issues ive noticed.

maybe the dampening of the 9way struts up front make me feel like im bouncing when i slow/decelerate like a big rig (similar air ride reaction i guess) i have them set at the least dampening right now, it allows for a smooth up and down.

other topics hit on:
side to side air transfer: ive noticed, (i run dual needle gauges) with my 8 valve setup, on a corner, psi may raise in a side by 10psi or more (freeway onramps) if youdidnt have a "block" between the bags, the air would transfer, maybe not enough to cause issue, but imagine (for those who have side to side) on an onramp curving to the right, dumping air from the driver's side, (improper banking)
again, if you're used to it, no problem.

someone said something to the effect of, "having the valves would serve as a block so no air would transfer" - not true. if you have enough load in one side, the air will transfter back to the tank (if the bag pressure overcomes the tank pressure) and that side will go lower. All valves have a tendancy to leak a little.

sciondrgn - hit me up with that nitrogen information, i might endeavor to do some high psi work (maybe not nitrogen high, but ill pm you)

one thing's for sure, it's better to have 8 valves and not use em, than have 4 and want to do an adjustment that you cant unless you had 8.

i made a 4 switch box that controls independent per wheel, and it's semi useful. but my daily switches are front/rear/all.

im open to q's if need b.


Look... I am not trying to offend anyone... but you have no idea what you are talking about.

If you have a properly installed 8 valves air management system there is NO WAY you are seeing air transfer. NO WAY. What you are seeing is the compression of the outside bag when you corner. When the bag is compressed it creates a smaller area for the air inside of the bag to fill. Assuming that the volume of air is constant (which it is) the smaller space would mean higher pressure. This is the pressure difference you are seeing when you turn.

The fact is, you would probably see LESS pressure difference with a 4 valve system. This is a BAD thing. What is happening is exactly what I have been trying to describe all along. The volume of air is following the path of least resistance. The volume of air is fixed.

As additional pressure is exerted on the outside air bag, the bag is compressed. When the bag is compressed the air would be forced to a higher pressure. However, because you have allowed the air someplace else to go, it does. At the same time the outside is seeing more load, the inside bag see less. The bag gets stretched and the pressure should drop. But because you have an open path between the two bags, the air finds it's own happy medium. Air moves from the bag that NEEDS more pressure (outside) to the bag that SHOULD NOT get more pressure (inside)!

The other comments you made were related to valves leaking. This is also NOT TRUE. A quality valve installed and maintained properly will not leak. And as far as your comment about pressure differential causing leaks? This is also untrue. If it were the valves would be absolutely pointless! What do you think keeps the pressurized air in your tank from filling your air bags? The only time you would see air transfer from the bag to the tank is if you energized a fill valve who's airbag had more pressure than the supply side of the valve. The chances of this happening on a properly installed and properly working pneumatic system are slim to none.

The thought that the valves we use for air suspension are unreliable is laughable. The use of these valves for automotive suspension is such a small percentage of the manufacturer's market it is ridiculous. The original application for the valves we use is industrial. Namely processing plants and the like that require the precision and accuracy afforded by solenoid valves.

Lastly, just to try and keep you from thinking I am a total jerk I'll address the questions you probably have about compressed gas. Bottom line is that pressure is pressure. One gas does not really afford any more pressure than another. Now this isn't to say that one doesn't have benefit over another.

The most popular options are compressed air, CO2, Nitrogen and Helium. Of these my recommendation will almost always be Nitrogen for trucks. It is more consistent than air as it is not affected by weather and does not contain moisture. I would never even consider using CO2, even though many do.

And the only way I would go compressed air is if I was using a SCUBA type system. The SCUBA systems allow higher pressure in a smaller bottle. Great for cars without a lot of space for big bottles. But this also means buying a special, more expensive regulator.

Sorry if I offended anyone. But I am just trying to keep the facts straight.

Bags Were mounted behind the wheels on the inside of the frame, connecting bars when lifted by the bags would push up from the axle lifting the frame



And Oneloww I wouldnt know about the s10forum I never joined

Maybe I am just slow... but I am still not sure what your rear suspension design was.

Did you have one trailing arm on each side that attached to your stock front leaf spring hanger? And the bags were mounted on that?

If so, that is called a 2 link and is probably one of the WORST suspension "designs" ever conceived by hack job "customizers." No offense to you or your truck.


Its a reverse Cantilever essentialy a reverse 4 link with a cantilever lifting for the frame. it was all custom built.

No offense RT but jus quit. seriously. Every post you make is hating on someone else's way of doing things and just about every other post you keep reminding us how long youve been dealing with air suspension.. I personally dont care. Ive made my points, im through bickering with someone who has to think there right all the time .

:eyebrow:

The posts I have been making haven't been about my way vs. your way. Or even one right way vs. another. My posts have been about one right way vs. one wrong way. It really is that simple.

And I won't even start on the rear suspension you had on your truck. But next time you get a chance to talk to an actual engineer who deals with suspension design, ask him or her what they think about a reverse 4 link on a truck. I think you will find what they have to say interesting.

I am quickly starting to find that talking to people on SL is much like trying to talk to people on Street Source when it comes to suspension. No one ever wants to admit that their way may just be wrong. Or... *gasp* ...maybe even dangerous.

Bags Were mounted behind the wheels on the inside of the frame, connecting bars when lifted by the bags would push up from the axle lifting the frame



And Oneloww I wouldnt know about the s10forum I never joined

Maybe I am just slow... but I am still not sure what your rear suspension design was.

Did you have one trailing arm on each side that attached to your stock front leaf spring hanger? And the bags were mounted on that?

If so, that is called a 2 link and is probably one of the WORST suspension "designs" ever conceived by hack job "customizers." No offense to you or your truck.


Its a reverse Cantilever essentialy a reverse 4 link with a cantilever lifting for the frame. it was all custom built.

No offense RT but jus quit. seriously. Every post you make is hating on someone else's way of doing things and just about every other post you keep reminding us how long youve been dealing with air suspension.. I personally dont care. Ive made my points, im through bickering with someone who has to think there right all the time .

:eyebrow:

The posts I have been making haven't been about my way vs. your way. Or even one right way vs. another. My posts have been about one right way vs. one wrong way. It really is that simple.

And I won't even start on the rear suspension you had on your truck. But next time you get a chance to talk to an actual engineer who deals with suspension design, ask him or her what they think about a reverse 4 link on a truck. I think you will find what they have to say interesting.

I am quickly starting to find that talking to people on SL is much like trying to talk to people on Street Source when it comes to suspension. No one ever wants to admit that their way may just be wrong. Or... *gasp* ...maybe even dangerous.


:blah:

Sorry im not bickering with you anymore..

Simply put Right or Wrong the systems I have used on my truck has prooven itself with no troubles or issues so if its the wrong way then so be it.. Do you know how many type of rear s10 suspension there is? So whos to says whats right and wrong.. they all work and all have reprecussions and everyone with air ride is taking that chance of failure especially doing something custom versus a bolt on mod.

Opinions are one thing but please dont come on here saying my ways are wrong when apprently there not because it works and lays hard and drags hard as well and has been for 5-6 years now and the current owner still running strong to this day

:blah:

Sorry im not bickering with you anymore..

Simply put Right or Wrong the systems I have used on my truck has prooven itself with no troubles or issues so if its the wrong way then so be it.. Do you know how many type of rear s10 suspension there is? So whos to says whats right and wrong.. they all work and all have reprecussions and everyone with air ride is taking that chance of failure especially doing something custom versus a bolt on mod.

Opinions are one thing but please dont come on here saying my ways are wrong when apprently there not because it works and lays hard and drags hard as well and has been for 5-6 years now and the current owner still running strong to this day

Your the man sciondrgn, this is what I have been thinking the whole time.

My f/b setup works perfectly for what i use it for. It corners hard (for an xb) handles smooth (for an xb) and keeps me safe. Sure, it would be nice to upgrade so i have more adjustablity, but for the little money it costs, i would prefer to fix my fenders, smooth the hatch, or do some other work on the xb.

Like I said earlier, If I need a car that handles Ill pull out my SM2 86 mr2 and play in that. Cause i mean, obviously, i have no idea what im doin with suspension since im running 4 valves. :clap:

:blah:

Sorry im not bickering with you anymore..

Simply put Right or Wrong the systems I have used on my truck has prooven itself with no troubles or issues so if its the wrong way then so be it.. Do you know how many type of rear s10 suspension there is? So whos to says whats right and wrong.. they all work and all have reprecussions and everyone with air ride is taking that chance of failure especially doing something custom versus a bolt on mod.

Opinions are one thing but please dont come on here saying my ways are wrong when apprently there not because it works and lays hard and drags hard as well and has been for 5-6 years now and the current owner still running strong to this day

Your the man sciondrgn, this is what I have been thinking the whole time.

My f/b setup works perfectly for what i use it for. It corners hard (for an xb) handles smooth (for an xb) and keeps me safe. Sure, it would be nice to upgrade so i have more adjustablity, but for the little money it costs, i would prefer to fix my fenders, smooth the hatch, or do some other work on the xb.

Like I said earlier, If I need a car that handles Ill pull out my SM2 86 mr2 and play in that. Cause i mean, obviously, i have no idea what im doin with suspension since im running 4 valves. :clap:

:bow: yeah im thinking of going to 4 valves so i can be ghetto with my install ya know :P :rofl:

I just want to keep 4valves for the "corners game!" It makes it that much more interesting when the air shifts from one side to the other and throws the xB off the road! Those guys on the outside won't know what hits them!

Make sure this thread stays on topic or I'll lock it. It started out very useful, lets keep it useful.

4 valves may not be "ghetto" but it is most definatley a 'cut corner'.

4 valves=$150
couple of extra fittings=$20
airline=$2
having a suspension that behaves close to stock under braking, cornering and evasive manuevers= PRICELESS.....

:clap:

reverse 4 link :no:

reverse 4 link :no:

Whats your problem?

you can have FBSS with only 4 valves! they would have to be 2way valves, but there would only be 4 :P

if i was to redo my set up, i would use 4 2way valves! but thats just me!

I have 8 valves, and i leave mine sitting side-side pretty offten while i'm at work. my rear doors shut/open with no problems.

4 valves is just silly in my mind! when i raise the back end of my xb up (with the rear -up switch), the pass. side fills faster than the driver side! so if i only had 4 valves, I wouldn't be able to independitly adjust each corner, and i would be driving all lop sided in the rear! the air doesn't enter each bag at the same time so they fill a diffrent speeds. However, if i put 60psi in both rear bags, the air exits the bags at the same time, leaving them equal when i let...say....30psi out of them. I drive with 80psi in the front, and 30psi in the rear (incase anyone was wondering).

and on the air transfer topic... i have only had 8 valves on my ride, so i can't say yay or nay.

What I dont understand is why do people think a Reverse 4 link is unsafe or dangerous..

That myth was busted along time ago. Cando even sells a bolt on reverse 4 link for minis

You can easily get huge amounts of lift off this set up and maintain one awesome ride quality with it..

I mean for real just because some people cant get it to work years ago doesnt mean it has to be bad for everyone.

If the install is done right it will perform and continue to and my old s10 has proven that so dont tell me its the "wrong way to do it"

sciondrgn - damn that sux that ur box is 'in the shop' but then again, there are some nice things that can come of it. as for speed reducers, 99cent brass plugs with inset allen keyholes work well when you drill them out (thats what i did for the longest time, though now i'll try something different...pics will be up soon)

rt20's, - you've had some good info, i dont take your feedback as jerkish, but it's a bit far to go as to say i dont know anything about this topic, we'd have to compare notes before you say something like that. as for "(What do you think keeps the pressurized air in your tank from filling your air bags? The only time you would see air transfer from the bag to the tank is if you energized a fill valve who's airbag had more pressure than the supply side of the valve.)" that you said, try draining your tank with your bags fully filled (use the drain/aux valve) if your bags go flat too, then your solenoids leak. (just a little, and under quite a bit of 'reverse' pressure. i may not use the terms you're used to; but i definately know what im talking about. ask anyone on the west coast that has talked to me personally, or even online.

the info is pretty good up here, not much to do with xb's anymore tho; but im learning some new info :)

What I dont understand is why do people think a Reverse 4 link is unsafe or dangerous..

That myth was busted along time ago. Cando even sells a bolt on reverse 4 link for minis

You can easily get huge amounts of lift off this set up and maintain one awesome ride quality with it..

I mean for real just because some people cant get it to work years ago doesnt mean it has to be bad for everyone.

If the install is done right it will perform and continue to and my old s10 has proven that so dont tell me its the "wrong way to do it"

i agree with you man, 3 of my friends have the cando reverse 4 link and its awesome..even compared to my other friends who run the traditional 4 link, the reverse 4 gives them much more room to play with since the link runs backwards...the main thing you need with the reverse 4 link is shocks that'll allow you to have adequate stroke w/out giving you enough lift to pull your driveshaft

What I dont understand is why do people think a Reverse 4 link is unsafe or dangerous..

That myth was busted along time ago. Cando even sells a bolt on reverse 4 link for minis

You can easily get huge amounts of lift off this set up and maintain one awesome ride quality with it..

I mean for real just because some people cant get it to work years ago doesnt mean it has to be bad for everyone.

If the install is done right it will perform and continue to and my old s10 has proven that so dont tell me its the "wrong way to do it"

i agree with you man, 3 of my friends have the cando reverse 4 link and its awesome..even compared to my other friends who run the traditional 4 link, the reverse 4 gives them much more room to play with since the link runs backwards...the main thing you need with the reverse 4 link is shocks that'll allow you to have adequate stroke w/out giving you enough lift to pull your driveshaft

Yup you got it right there..

I could easily get 10-12 inches of lift of that same exact set up.

As long as its done right. Its safe and last for a long time..

5-6 years to be exact...

:clap:

Do you know how many type of rear s10 suspension there is? So whos to says whats right and wrong.

I'm not the one saying it is wrong... Physics is.

they all work and all have reprecussions and everyone with air ride is taking that chance of failure especially doing something custom versus a bolt on mod.

Define the word work. So they work like a properly engineered suspension? Or do they just make the vehicle go up and down. Custom vs. bolt on has nothing to do with it.

Opinions are one thing but please dont come on here saying my ways are wrong when apprently there not because it works and lays hard and drags hard as well and has been for 5-6 years now and the current owner still running strong to this day

Again... physics my friend. "Laying hard and dragging" are not my definition of a properly designed engineered and installed suspension. That is one of the ways I don't see eye to eye with the majority of the minitruck community.

Do you know how many type of rear s10 suspension there is? So whos to says whats right and wrong.

I'm not the one saying it is wrong... Physics is.

they all work and all have reprecussions and everyone with air ride is taking that chance of failure especially doing something custom versus a bolt on mod.

Define the word work. So they work like a properly engineered suspension? Or do they just make the vehicle go up and down. Custom vs. bolt on has nothing to do with it.

Opinions are one thing but please dont come on here saying my ways are wrong when apprently there not because it works and lays hard and drags hard as well and has been for 5-6 years now and the current owner still running strong to this day

Again... physics my friend. "Laying hard and dragging" are not my definition of a properly designed engineered and installed suspension. That is one of the ways I don't see eye to eye with the majority of the minitruck community.


Heres a question then instead of ranting on how Ive done my truck in the past why dont you actually put some useful information in there and explain how you would have done it? Not once have you said "the correct" way as you put it.

We all know that any form of modified suspension is going outside of the factory specs of a vehicle and we all take a chance regardless of which way its done

What I dont understand is why do people think a Reverse 4 link is unsafe or dangerous..

That myth was busted along time ago.

I must have missed that episode of Mythbusters where they defied the laws of physics. Does anybody have it taped?

Cando even sells a bolt on reverse 4 link for minis

And Minitruckin' did an article about mounting shocks on sway bars. That doesn't make it right.

You can easily get huge amounts of lift off this set up and maintain one awesome ride quality with it..
And you can do the same thing, and have a vehicle that behaves properly under all conditions with a properly designed suspension. Physics are the laws of nature. You can't break them, so why try? It makes life a whole lot easier and safer if you just work with them rather than against them.

I mean for real just because some people cant get it to work years ago doesnt mean it has to be bad for everyone.

The nice things about the laws of physics is that they don't change.

If the install is done right it will perform and continue to and my old s10 has proven that so dont tell me its the "wrong way to do it"
All your old S-10 proves is that you can make an S-10 go up and down.

that you said, try draining your tank with your bags fully filled (use the drain/aux valve) if your bags go flat too, then your solenoids leak. (just a little, and under quite a bit of 'reverse' pressure.

You are right. The only time your bags would deflate is if your valve leaked. However, unless you have a bad valve, or debris in your valve this shouldn't happen. A clean, properly work valve will not leak out.

Heres a question then instead of ranting on how Ive done my truck in the past why dont you actually put some useful information in there and explain how you would have done it? Not once have you said "the correct" way as you put it.

We all know that any form of modified suspension is going outside of the factory specs of a vehicle and we all take a chance regardless of which way its done

I just might do that. I don't have time right now. But if it will satisfy you, I will.

Heres a question then instead of ranting on how Ive done my truck in the past why dont you actually put some useful information in there and explain how you would have done it? Not once have you said "the correct" way as you put it.

We all know that any form of modified suspension is going outside of the factory specs of a vehicle and we all take a chance regardless of which way its done

I just might do that. I don't have time right now. But if it will satisfy you, I will.

It doesnt matter to me honestly and i personally dont care because i dont own an s10 anymore and considereing this is a Scion board and and not the s10 forum..

I dont mind constructive comments and your opinion is just that.. but how about in the future instead of just saying .. "Thats not right" how about actually back up your statements first then we can discuss that later versus being so short winded in your post.

And spider you can lock this thread if you want. Im personally done with it

Thanks everyone with there opinions on the 4vs8 valves setups and what everyone is running

Rather than trying to put all the information into my own words, and taking forever to do so, I'll provide a simple link.

The company listed below is probably the leading company in the world when it comes to automotive pneumatic suspension. I could continue to provide link after link to back up my statements, but this one does it just fine in terms that everyone can understand.

http://www.ridetech.com/techarticles/air4linktechinfo.asp

i run 4 valves in the front but only 2 in the back. i only have the 4 in front so i can adjust the sides. everything works fine and i have no warping or anything.

i run 4 valves in the front but only 2 in the back. i only have the 4 in front so i can adjust the sides. everything works fine and i have no warping or anything.

Cool thanks for the info

this is not my opinion it is a fact, if you loss pressure on the tank and do not have a inline check valve between the tank and valves(which i now have and works great) the bags will deflate because these electric solienoid valves are pressure sealed from the inlet side.

this happened to me when i air mine up and then released the air from the tank so i could install my water seperator.

just thought i would warn you because if you lost all your tank pressure without a check valve installed for what ever reason while driving, it could turn out bad for you fenders. :P

this is not my opinion it is a fact, if you loss pressure on the tank and do not have a inline check valve between the tank and valves(which i now have and works great) the bags will deflate because these electric solienoid valves are pressure sealed from the inlet side.

this happened to me when i air mine up and then released the air from the tank so i could install my water seperator.

just thought i would warn you because if you lost all your tank pressure without a check valve installed for what ever reason while driving, it could turn out bad for you fenders. :P

Yup you are correct.. With No pressure in the tank and no check valve the valves will open and deflate..

this is not my opinion it is a fact, if you loss pressure on the tank and do not have a inline check valve between the tank and valves(which i now have and works great) the bags will deflate because these electric solienoid valves are pressure sealed from the inlet side.

this happened to me when i air mine up and then released the air from the tank so i could install my water seperator.

just thought i would warn you because if you lost all your tank pressure without a check valve installed for what ever reason while driving, it could turn out bad for you fenders. :P

This must depend on your vavles. Because I have lifted my car, then pulled my tank and compressor to work on some things. It was fine for several hours, I even drove it to the store and back.

this is not my opinion it is a fact, if you loss pressure on the tank and do not have a inline check valve between the tank and valves(which i now have and works great) the bags will deflate because these electric solienoid valves are pressure sealed from the inlet side.

this happened to me when i air mine up and then released the air from the tank so i could install my water seperator.

just thought i would warn you because if you lost all your tank pressure without a check valve installed for what ever reason while driving, it could turn out bad for you fenders. :P

This must depend on your vavles. Because I have lifted my car, then pulled my tank and compressor to work on some things. It was fine for several hours, I even drove it to the store and back.

Some valves do have essentially a check valve in them to keep that so its possible with the ones you have and air wont leak back..

yeah some valves you need tank psi some you do not

If I can humbly add my 2c....

I believe there is no difference between number of valves 4 vs 8 for the problem stated. I dont think its a cut corner thing either, if the installation is done right it may be just the owner's preference knowing that he/she will not have as much control over the system. If its just and up and down system with one manual valve installed right then it should be fine. The suspension overall should level out if all the bags still have some air, if some bags do not have air then you obviously have more resistance and that may or may not cause more damage. Im not saying its not the air bags that are causing the problem, Im saying its probably not a difference between 4-8 valves and 8 valves could also cause the same problem if 4-valves can.

I think the problem could be due to a number of things, maybe its the speed in which you pump and dump, I think the "action" could cause the problem not just having the equipment. I would think if your pump and dump action is slower that you could reduce body flex if there is a potential to cause any. Here is my main question of bags vs coilovers, when you had the coilovers you said you didnt notice the misalignment, was the airbags at that same exact coilover height from a dumped position still show the misalignment?

Also some might want to think out of the "box" :)
Did the car get into an accident? Was the car ever loaded beyond its capacity? Is there dynamat in the doors? Is there speakers? Has the door ever been removed? Has anyone over extended the doors? Has anyone slammed the doors? Was the car of jack stands for any reason for an extended amount of time, maybe on jackstands in an uneven manner or uneven ground?

I still say its a good question, but I just wanted to take the time and comment that it could be a number of things.

Peace.