I recently crashed my echo due to the rear Ground Control spring coming off the spring seats... And before you say anything I had at least 2 metal straps holding down the springs... I've had these springs for well over 2 years but I guess they finally work them selves loose...

They came off and the tire caught the inner fender well. It basically made my rear step out on me to the right ... I corrected, the rear stepped out tot he left over corrected. spun me 180° going 75 to 80mph... Counterred spun another 180° tried to re-gain control of the car. But steering locked me out.. Then I just press clutch in... brake in ... and held on for impact...

I didnt have body damage but I snapped my axle and bent it .... Broke my control arm on my passenger side. And cracked my rare 14" Panasport ULF racing rims... Luckily , my friends shop owned me money and ended up didnt pay for anything. But, what really sucks is the towing company... "TONY'S Towing" from SouthBay California... Didnt listen me where the tow hooks were and hookup on my frame. And they ripped a seam thru my frame... I'm currently trying to have them pay for it, so it can be repaired... I'll keep you guys updated...

Wow that sucks

well, I forgot to post this here its been awhile since I posted this at echofans.net ... so heres an update of whats going on ...

I picked up my Tein basic coilver kit today and also found one last 14x7 with a 38mm offset Panasport ULF racing rim at Panasport. My buddy told me he found one way in the back. He said I was luck because these are going to be discountinued due to a new style coming out. So He found one in back of the warehouse... So I guess I'm sticking with 14" and buying Bridgestone Potenza RE950's ... These tires are the best tires in this size unless you match them against Falken Azenis. The Falken's are better because they grip like a R compound tire. While they are only price $40 to $50 bucks a tire... Falken Azenis best bang for the buck if you can get them because they are on a nation wide back order...

Hey Wraith. That sucks about your ride! However, the fact that your ok after doing a 180 at 80 mph is a lucky and good thing! Are you sure that it was the GC that caused the accident? I'm concerned because I have a set on my xB and have been trying to figure out a way of keeping the rear springs more secure for when I jack up the car. Did you hit a bump of some sort? At least with the construction of the GC for the xB the spring sits in a base that seems very muck like most coilovers that are out there. When the weight of the car is on them they are very secure. I can't imagine that they would just pop out unless the car hit a very large bump and the control arm went down to full drop. Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting what you say, I'm just trying to figure this out as I have a set on my ride. Are you sure that the ones you had on your echo were the same as the xB? Do you think that it could have been the metal straps that you put on there that could have caused them to pop out? If one broke perhaps this caused some sort of imbalance and shoved the spring out. Anyways, again, sorry to hear about your accident.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jefffeldman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/rear.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~jefffeldman/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/rear.jpg

wow... I guess I was the first one to ever order the kit then because I didnt get that for the adjustable seat for it ... Mine was just a spring no taller than 8 inches...

It couldnt have been the straps because they were still on the car and they werent broken... The spring work themselves loose over time. And it just fell off, I put the straps on because ever time I went up a steep drive way and when one wheel is off the ground the spring would fall off ... So I guess I got one of the first set because my friend told me the kit hasnt change and it was actually the same as the xb and the xa...

:shock:

sorry to hear that. i hate those know it all towing companies. they've heard it all and they always think the customer is an idiot. but if you can prove they hooked it up that way, they have to pay for sure.

also, tow truck drivers might treat you like you're dumb, but look what they're doing for a living. i'm not financially predudice against anyone, but i don't like people who treat others like their stupid just because they're not in the auto industry by trade. like i know a lot about cars, but i have nothing to do with the auto industry at all professionally.

thanks for the heads up on the coilovers. i think this kind of thing can happen to any sleeve-based coilover setup, not just ground control.

I recently crashed my echo due to the rear Ground Control spring coming off the spring seats... And before you say anything I had at least 2 metal straps holding down the springs...

I find this statement interesting. Your retention straps failed, yet you seem to want to blame the Ground Control springs for the mishap.

Whenever you make modifications, you assume the role of engineer. Apparently you did not design the retention straps with enough strength to do the job. Back to the drawing board!

I recently crashed my echo due to the rear Ground Control spring coming off the spring seats... And before you say anything I had at least 2 metal straps holding down the springs...

I find this statement interesting. Your retention straps failed, yet you seem to want to blame the Ground Control springs for the mishap.

Whenever you make modifications, you assume the role of engineer. Apparently you did not design the retention straps with enough strength to do the job. Back to the drawing board!

Hmmm...I don't really see how it's his fault...because WITHOUT his own retention straps, the sleeved coilovers were even more unsafe than they were WITH them on.

When a product is designed to fit a specific vehicle, shouldn't they fit right without having to do your own homemade mods to make sure they stay attached to the car?

How can you say he didn't design the retention straps with enough strength George--he shouldn't have needed them in the first place.

:shock:
Sorry!

Ground control's and all other cheap coilovers are designed stupid. IMO, if you want real coilovers pay $895 for Tien Basic.

I recently crashed my echo due to the rear Ground Control spring coming off the spring seats... And before you say anything I had at least 2 metal straps holding down the springs...

I find this statement interesting. Your retention straps failed, yet you seem to want to blame the Ground Control springs for the mishap.

Whenever you make modifications, you assume the role of engineer. Apparently you did not design the retention straps with enough strength to do the job. Back to the drawing board!

Hmmm...I don't really see how it's his fault...because WITHOUT his own retention straps, the sleeved coilovers were even more unsafe than they were WITH them on.

When a product is designed to fit a specific vehicle, shouldn't they fit right without having to do your own homemade mods to make sure they stay attached to the car?

How can you say he didn't design the retention straps with enough strength George--he shouldn't have needed them in the first place.

One could find blame with both parties. The spring manufacturer is guilty of not designing their product in such a way that it will stay in place, and the owner didn't properly correct deficiencies he knew existed.

It would be interesting to see photos of this installation. The failure mode of the springs is fairly obvious (and apparently not that uncommon in the lowering spring business), but the nature and failure mode of the straps is of interest.

I've done a fair amount of suspension design and had failures of my own. Each failure is a learning experience, both for myself and others. In a racing environment, you just fix the problem and move on without blaming the raw materials.

To Engineer is Human!

George

I recently crashed my echo due to the rear Ground Control spring coming off the spring seats... And before you say anything I had at least 2 metal straps holding down the springs...

I find this statement interesting. Your retention straps failed, yet you seem to want to blame the Ground Control springs for the mishap.

Whenever you make modifications, you assume the role of engineer. Apparently you did not design the retention straps with enough strength to do the job. Back to the drawing board!

Hmmm...I don't really see how it's his fault...because WITHOUT his own retention straps, the sleeved coilovers were even more unsafe than they were WITH them on.

When a product is designed to fit a specific vehicle, shouldn't they fit right without having to do your own homemade mods to make sure they stay attached to the car?

How can you say he didn't design the retention straps with enough strength George--he shouldn't have needed them in the first place.

One could find blame with both parties. The spring manufacturer is guilty of not designing their product in such a way that it will stay in place, and the owner didn't properly correct deficiencies he knew existed.

It would be interesting to see photos of this installation. The failure mode of the springs is fairly obvious (and apparently not that uncommon in the lowering spring business), but the nature and failure mode of the straps is of interest.

I've done a fair amount of suspension design and had failures of my own. Each failure is a learning experience, both for myself and others. In a racing environment, you just fix the problem and move on without blaming the raw materials.

To Engineer is Human!

George

Hey George before you tell me I'm worng ... then How come my straps where still in working order when I got it at the shop... The straps were not broken... The spring itself just worked its way lose after 2 years of use...

Don't mind George.....it's amazing how much logic can come out of his posts without any empathy.

For a manufacturer such as Ground Control to present a product that can possibly be dangerous and then leave it to the customer to resolve that problem is wrong any which way you look at it.

So had this for instance been someone that did not make their own safety straps and this mishap occurred to them......then who is to blame?

Wraith took the extra step to be safe but I guess it wasn't enough and we have you George using your almighty logic and reason to bring the blame back on him when it should be solely on GC.

Don't forget either....

To Empathize is Human too.

Sorry to hear for your accident Wraith.....hope all is well and I think the Teins should be much better.

Hey George before you tell me I'm worng ... then How come my straps where still in working order when I got it at the shop... The straps were not broken... The spring itself just worked its way lose after 2 years of use...

In that case, it seems that the straps did not do the job that you designed them to do, keep the springs in place. If they were undamaged and the spring still escaped, what other conclusion is there?

In engineering, there are many golden moments when operating conditions exceed the ability of designs to function properly. Google on "tacoma narrows bridge" and "hyatt regency skywalk kansas city" for a couple of spectacular examples. Everyone makes mistakes, smart folks learn from them.

George

Don't mind George.....it's amazing how much logic can come out of his posts without any empathy.

What do you expect? I'm an engineer! For empathy, see a counselor or a bartender! :)

For a manufacturer such as Ground Control to present a product that can possibly be dangerous and then leave it to the customer to resolve that problem is wrong any which way you look at it.

You could say the same thing of that fast food chain that served hot coffee in cups that were so weak that they could be (gasp!) crushed when held between a person's legs.

So had this for instance been someone that did not make their own safety straps and this mishap occurred to them......then who is to blame?

In today's "What kind of a victim am I?" society, the blame obviously goes to anyone but the person doing the blaming. The spring manufacturer is to blame for a poor design, Toyota is to blame for making the springs removable, and the government is to blame for not passing legislation prohibiting modifications to vehicles and for allowing bumps to exist on the roadways they maintain. A creative tort attorney could undoubtedly come up with quite a few more folks to blame.

Wraith took the extra step to be safe but I guess it wasn't enough and we have you George using your almighty logic and reason to bring the blame back on him when it should be solely on GC.

I'm not debating that the GC design _might_ have been deficient.

However, the owner/installer clearly knew that the product did not fit properly. At that point, some responsibility falls onto him, for he could have just put the springs back into the box and returned them. Expecting a manufacturer to bear "cradle to grave" responsibility for a product over whose installation and use they have no control is not reasonable.

At some point, personal responsibility has to come into play. It is a poor mechanic that blames his tools.

George <--better logic than crocodile tears... :cry:

he said he had the straps in there for about 2 years and it kept the springs in.. then why would the spring pop out now without and damage to the straps?

he said he had the straps in there for about 2 years and it kept the springs in.. then why would the spring pop out now without and damage to the straps?

Without knowing his strap design, no explanation is possible.

I've seen cars running with springs that come loose when the suspension is unloaded. They've been running around for months with no problems, simply because the driver hasn't hit the set of circumstances that would let the springs go free, such as topping out the suspension under acceleration. This doesn't mean that they will never have a problem, just that they haven't yet.

George

This is the main reason I had to raise an eyebrow when it was listed that the Ground Control kit for the Scions would allow the car to be lowered more than 2.5". I lost quite a bit of respect for them after someone also mentioned that GC "engineered" the setup to work well at those low heights. I'm not sure if it was ever added to the FAQ before, but going down beyond 2.5" on stock struts/shocks, your ride quality will be vastly diminished. At about 2.75-3" down, the rear will buck, and at about 3" you will definitely need to worry about adjusting the front toe. With a stock, long rear shock, a spring that allows the car to drop more than 2.5" will have a great chance of dislodging itself and falling out if the rear was ever allowed to reach near full extension. Not good....

Ground control's and all other cheap coilovers are designed stupid. IMO, if you want real coilovers pay $895 for Tien Basic.

ground controls are the coilover of choice for many SCCA race cars. they are not $89 ebay coilovers, they are a quality-made product that does what they're supposed to do if used properly.

if i could spend $900 on tein basic coilovers or $900 on a set of bilstein sports and ground controls w/ custom rates to my choosing, i'd pick the ground controls every time.

I go back to the original statement about how they have been on for 2 year until now . . . well heads up buddy. When you do modifications to the suspension with aftermarket products it's recommended to check everything is in place at least once every other month . . . common sense bro. Since you said it "worked it's way loose" could have been avoided by a simple inspection. I don't have sympathy for you blaming the products. They put time to engineer these to provide a product and avoid lawsuits...it's 80% of the time the consumers fault. :nope:

Ground control's and all other cheap coilovers are designed stupid. IMO, if you want real coilovers pay $895 for Tien Basic.

ground controls are the coilover of choice for many SCCA race cars. they are not $89 ebay coilovers, they are a quality-made product that does what they're supposed to do if used properly.

if i could spend $900 on tein basic coilovers or $900 on a set of bilstein sports and ground controls w/ custom rates to my choosing, i'd pick the ground controls every time.Yes and no , on these cars they use linear springs to lower the car versus correct progressive springs , so at full extension the springs can pop out , bad desing by toyota in my thoughts. And if his retention straps were there how is it even possible for the springs to "work" their way out? what does that even mean work their way out? hmmm.....

Ground control's and all other cheap coilovers are designed stupid. IMO, if you want real coilovers pay $895 for Tien Basic.

ground controls are the coilover of choice for many SCCA race cars. they are not $89 ebay coilovers, they are a quality-made product that does what they're supposed to do if used properly.
.

If by SCCA racecar you mean the 17 year old kid who autocrosses his CRX in an SCCA sanctioned event then you are correct, otherwise your wrong.

Ground controls are not nice coilovers. They simply arent.

Ground control's and all other cheap coilovers are designed stupid. IMO, if you want real coilovers pay $895 for Tien Basic.

ground controls are the coilover of choice for many SCCA race cars. they are not $89 ebay coilovers, they are a quality-made product that does what they're supposed to do if used properly.

if i could spend $900 on tein basic coilovers or $900 on a set of bilstein sports and ground controls w/ custom rates to my choosing, i'd pick the ground controls every time.Yes and no , on these cars they use linear springs to lower the car versus correct progressive springs , so at full extension the springs can pop out , bad desing by toyota in my thoughts. And if his retention straps were there how is it even possible for the springs to "work" their way out? what does that even mean work their way out? hmmm.....

NICE!!! sounds like a comment from someone who knows... Obisiouly you dont... Because SCCA racer actually modify their shocks to fit the Ground Control sleeves and weld it down. So SCCA racer actually makes their own coilovers...
Totally different from using a Ground Control Kit specifically made for a car where you just add it on... Instead of grinding out the spring perches off the stock shocks and welding the sleeves on the shock housings...

Ground control's and all other cheap coilovers are designed stupid. IMO, if you want real coilovers pay $895 for Tien Basic.

ground controls are the coilover of choice for many SCCA race cars. they are not $89 ebay coilovers, they are a quality-made product that does what they're supposed to do if used properly.

if i could spend $900 on tein basic coilovers or $900 on a set of bilstein sports and ground controls w/ custom rates to my choosing, i'd pick the ground controls every time.Yes and no , on these cars they use linear springs to lower the car versus correct progressive springs , so at full extension the springs can pop out , bad desing by toyota in my thoughts. And if his retention straps were there how is it even possible for the springs to "work" their way out? what does that even mean work their way out? hmmm.....

NICE!!! sounds like a comment from someone who knows... Obisiouly you dont... Because SCCA racer actually modify their shocks to fit the Ground Control sleeves and weld it down. So SCCA racer actually makes their own coilovers...
Totally different from using a Ground Control Kit specifically made for a car where you just add it on... Instead of grinding out the spring perches off the stock shocks and welding the sleeves on the shock housings...

true. didn't think about that, i've never seen ground controls on a street car before.

ground controls on a street car suck. but on the rear suspensions on these cars you cannot use linear springs , i've used ground control kits on other street cars and did fine but on these cars i just hate it. oh well , lol.

ground controls on a street car suck. but on the rear suspensions on these cars you cannot use linear springs , i've used ground control kits on other street cars and did fine but on these cars i just hate it. oh well , lol.

I've used linear springs in the back of my echo for nearly a 1 year and havent found any problems with them... Actually if you want to get serious about your cars cornering then you would have to go to a linear rear spring... This is only do-able if you have an adjustable perch just like the coilover from Tein, HKS, Cusco, and ZEAL...

I have an adjustable perch like those and if you raise my box the springs pop out. not safe. i ditched them because of all the noise from the springs rubbing on the perch. since the spring has to bend to fit. . bend as in not straight but curve cuz of how the rear suspension is. i shouldda taken pics but that was months ago. oh well.

I have an adjustable perch like those and if you raise my box the springs pop out. not safe. i ditched them because of all the noise from the springs rubbing on the perch. since the spring has to bend to fit. . bend as in not straight but curve cuz of how the rear suspension is. i shouldda taken pics but that was months ago. oh well.

I'll take pics later on today of my setup ... And post them since I'm messing with the suspension today ...

ok guys heres some pics... of how my rear suspension is ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v361/rippspeed/P1020260.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v361/rippspeed/P1020262.jpg

Don't mind George.....it's amazing how much logic can come out of his posts without any empathy.

What do you expect? I'm an engineer! For empathy, see a counselor or a bartender! :)

For a manufacturer such as Ground Control to present a product that can possibly be dangerous and then leave it to the customer to resolve that problem is wrong any which way you look at it.

You could say the same thing of that fast food chain that served hot coffee in cups that were so weak that they could be (gasp!) crushed when held between a person's legs.

So had this for instance been someone that did not make their own safety straps and this mishap occurred to them......then who is to blame?

In today's "What kind of a victim am I?" society, the blame obviously goes to anyone but the person doing the blaming. The spring manufacturer is to blame for a poor design, Toyota is to blame for making the springs removable, and the government is to blame for not passing legislation prohibiting modifications to vehicles and for allowing bumps to exist on the roadways they maintain. A creative tort attorney could undoubtedly come up with quite a few more folks to blame.

Wraith took the extra step to be safe but I guess it wasn't enough and we have you George using your almighty logic and reason to bring the blame back on him when it should be solely on GC.

I'm not debating that the GC design _might_ have been deficient.

However, the owner/installer clearly knew that the product did not fit properly. At that point, some responsibility falls onto him, for he could have just put the springs back into the box and returned them. Expecting a manufacturer to bear "cradle to grave" responsibility for a product over whose installation and use they have no control is not reasonable.

At some point, personal responsibility has to come into play. It is a poor mechanic that blames his tools.

George <--better logic than crocodile tears... :cry:Couldn't have said it better!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

yeah looks similar to mine but the springs are longer so i had the perch set lower. but whenever i'd raise the rear up my springs would come out of place at the top and that got really annoying and probably wasnt all that safe. i ran them for 9k miles tho no problems other than the creaking.

Bump from the dead, wondering if anybody else has had problems with the ground control coilovers on their xB. Wraith were you racing your echo all the time when your GC came off, like you are now, or just daily driving it then. If Minsk99 reads this, did you take your GC off or still have them on, and any problems with them. My xb is for daily driving not rally racing or any thing like that, but i would like to be able to adjust the height. I also cant afford to spend over a grand on full coilovers, and from what hotbox said he had problems with those also anyways.

I was driving on freeway ... I never raced the echo with the ground control setup

All right Wraith thats good to know, i know this is an old thread but did you did notice a difference from your GC's and the pic that was posted, right. Do you think they made them better than the set you bought. I know you dont care for them, but i would like your honest opinion.