Im sure most poeple have heard the news about his execution. Without arguing with each other, can people post if they were for it or against it. And why?

For me I was against it. Prison to me was made to rehabilitate citizens who have broken the law and make it safe for them to return to society. For those where that is not possible keep them in there for life. While "Tookie" was in jail he was nominated for 5 Nobel Peace Prizes, and 4 Nobel Literature Prizes because of what he spoke and wrote about. How many peoples words have such a great impact on others to recieve one of these nominations, let alone 9? Obviously what he was talking about rang truth to many and helped changed lives for the better. So I ask myself, why wasnt he granted clemency.......

all i know, that dude had the biggest arms i have ever seen.

i am for it. you kill someone, you should die.

Well he's dead now.

I'm neutral for the death penalty, but I was FOR the execution.

Getting nominated for the Nobel prize is quite easy, and is done so via MANY various sources. Has anyone actually READ his "books?" They are really quite awful. The people making the big hoopla about the nominations are his legal team and celebrities.

I totally understand why people are against the death penalty, and encourage people to voice themselves. But if you really look into the evidence and FACTS about "tookie," you'll find out what a scumbag he is. I really don't like that the majority of people who support him, actually think he's some kind of "good guy." He's not. Jamie Foxx is an actor, not a lawyer, not a historian, not even a relatively educated guy. He lies about who is for a living. Actors are the worst source of information. Period.

If you're against the death penalty so be it. Just don't defend this convicted criminal and murderer. You guys all turn him into some kind of hero.

If he really were innocent, they would be bringing up reasons why he had a mistrial, or what evidence was for him. They would not bring up peace prizes, which was, in fact a political STUNT by his legal team.

And a "rehabilitated citizen" would AT LEAST apologize, which he never did. He didn't shed one ounce of remorse to any of the victims.

And I'm neutral concerning the death penalty because:

1) We need a deterent for serious crimes.

2) Prove to me we have a viable, cost effective, feasible alternative that ensures an equal or greater amount of protection/deterrance as the death penalty, and I'll be for it.

3) (For those who argue the cost issue, and the value of a human life) Yes, you can put a price on the life of a human. Automobile accidents are the third largest killer of people IN THE WORLD. Accidents supercede war, terrorism, and executions all put together. In fact, executions make up but a tiny grain of deaths in the world. If you truly value life, you'd do your best to protect the greatest number of lives possible. . . and stopping the death penalty would really save but a few people.

If you were to limit all cars to spees of 20MPH and lower, you save MILLIONS of lives. Think about it. The cost? Probably in the BILLIONS of dollars. That's why we have a 65MPH speed limit. High enough to ensure efficient shipping times, but also fast enough to kill people EVERYDAY.

Think about that the next time you drive a car (if you are against the death penalty).

Prison to me was made to rehabilitate citizens who have broken the law and make it safe for them to return to society. Actually, that's not true. Prison has been around for thousands of years. Believe me, those people weren't worried about rehabiliting anyone. You were locked up to be punished. You did something wrong, there was a price to pay. While "Tookie" was in jail he was nominated for 5 Nobel Peace Prizes, and 4 Nobel Literature Prizes because of what he spoke and wrote about. How many peoples words have such a great impact on others to recieve one of these nominations, let alone 9? Obviously what he was talking about rang truth to many and helped changed lives for the better. So I ask myself, why wasnt he granted clemency.......Because he committed a terrible crime. And according to the laws of the state, the punishment for that crime is death. I'm very glad that he had become a good person. I'm glad he reached out to help people and had turned his life around. But that doesn't change the fact that there are consequences to our actions.

^^^ :clap: :clap: :clap:

Did he deserve the death penalty?......yes but its always sad to see a good person put to death.

RIP Richard Pryor + Tookie Williams

Also I am not suprised by Ahhnolds non grant....after all he is "The Terminator"

Glad he's not in charge of my state :loser:

:clap: I'm for it, we should be executing more criminals, all murderers, child molestors, rapists should be put to death immediately.... :pray: :pray: :pray: :P
I'm sick of my taxes paying for these a-holes.

I'm sick of my taxes paying for these a-holes.
With appeals and all it costs more money to execute some one than to sentence tthem to life without parole. Not a good argument IMHO


My 51st post all i can say is thank you Scionlife for giving me this opportunity to say
Burn in hell Tookie

I vote that he should have been put out of our misery much much sooner.
Prisons are not for rehabilitation. Betty Ford Clinic is for that. Who knows how many people "Tookie" is responsible for killing? He founded the 'Crips', remember??? They don't ride bikes and hand out Bible tracs, you know..... He killed 4 people in cold blood... how many of you have stared down the business end of a loaded gun? I have and it will scare you more than anything else has in your life. To try to glorify this killer is just sad. HE had 24 years to prove he was a good little boy, he proved otherwise. Check out his prison record....He wasn't even rehabilitated to follow the simplist of rules.

1) He killed four.

2) He never admitted it or said he was sorry for his crimes.

3) The rest was a screen to get him out of the death penalty. As stated before, the Hollywood elite were using him in their anti-death penalty cause. A ghost writer wrote those books for him.

4) He's finally dead. Justice prevails. :clap:

Im with alot of others on here and i feel that he should have been killed as well. Killing 4 people seems small when you think of the other problem he "created" which of course as stated before is the crips. Even though hes een locked up for some time and even though hes now dead we are STILL and probably will be for a long time, dealing with a big problem that he created, the crips. And because of them theres other gangs, and then gang wars etc. Im not blaming him for all gangs but i think if yo ask anyone to name a gang the first 2 they think of are the bloods or the crips, he started a very well known gang and problem that we will have to live with for a very long time and like others said he never appologized once. :loser:


Jay

Since we're on the topic of people being responsible for others deaths. How many is our president responsible for?

i dont know much about tookies crime, but i'm not for the death penalty, because even if you killed the 2-3 million people that are in jail right now for every single offense, there would still be crime and murders.

i've always said, if the gun makers were held more liable for deaths, they would take better precautions and not allow the streets to get flooded with weapons.

If car makers, baby bottle makers, painters, etc are held liable for deaths, so should smith n wesson.

whats sad is that, now that he's dead, they'll have more books, movies, videogames about this guy, and neither his family nor the families of the victims will see a dime.

i also agree that actors/entertainers are most often a bad source for credibility on certain issues.

Yes, no matter how many convicted murderers you do put to death you will have crimes and murders... but not by these pieces of human debris.

There are too many wasteful lawsuits now for people suing because of stupidity. If a porduct is defective, then the manufacturer should be held responsible. But gun manufacturers should not be liable for misuse of their products.
Now if your Uzi jams repeatedly during drive-bys at the school playground and you have to double back, then you need to sue for a defective product. But you shouldn't be allowed to sue for misuse. That is plain stupid.

Well, I'm not a death penalty kinda of man. It's our current law and it is what it is. He killed others and they certainly had NO opportunity to "change"....

However, our current prison system does not punish as it should to remove the death penalty.

A person that kills another human on purpose (murder) should get a life sentence and work so friggin hard and long every day that they would BEG for the death penalty.

They need food, shelter and medical care - then work.

i also agree that actors/entertainers are most often a bad source for credibility on certain issues.

True dat, Jamie Fox, Jesse Jackson and others showed up at TO's 32nd Birthday party at the 40/40 club not too long before Tookie was injected.

No one deserves to be killed, not even a killer.

No one deserves to be killed, not even a killer.
Tell that to the families of his victims.

No one deserves to be killed, not even a killer.


Sorry, I would have to say that since you (the killer, not you,personally :P ) thought it was fine to kill an innocent person, you have shown that you have complete disreguard for the sactity of human life. You have no place in society.

tell the families of the dead soldiers that this wartime we are in is justified.

Nice avatarpdrizz haha

No one deserves to be killed, not even a killer.

until someone close to you is murdered..........then maybe you'll change your mind

tell the families of the dead soldiers that this wartime we are in is justified.

Nice avatarpdrizz haha

not trying to be mean, but the soldiers should have thought about that when they signed their life over to the country

^^true but they didn't know how stupid Bush really is

This isn't a thread about Bush, war or anything other than should an animal that murdered 4 innocent people because he wanted money for drugs should have gotten the sentence the law allowed for...

Please stop trying to skew it to your political hatred.

No one deserves to be killed, not even a killer.
Tell that to the families of his victims.

Their negative feelings towards him does not make it right to kill.

This is from an article on AlterNet, which I agree with:

Then there's the wide belief that death penalty provides closure for victim's families. That's even more questionable. The state killing of Williams will erase his life, but it can't totally erase the pain, rage, and grief that victim's survivors experience. That's simply too intense, and personal. The debate over Williams's fate is a textbook example of that.

The stepmother of Albert Owens, the 7-Eleven store clerk, and one of the four victims that Williams was convicted of gunning down, has publicly said that Williams must die, and that his death will bring relief for Owens's family. Though Owens's brother, Wayne, does not support clemency, he's just as vocal that his execution is "a no-win" situation for everyone. He has no plans to attend the execution.

Owens is no exception to the rule that murder victim's families routinely cork champagne at a killer's death. In 1995, reporters were stunned at the sight of a spirited demonstration by a contingent of family members and relatives of the murdered victims of at the federal prison Timothy McVeigh, the convicted Oklahoma City terror bomber, was scheduled for execution. They weren't there to revel in McVeigh's execution. They were there to condemn it. They bombarded President Clinton with letters and petitions demanding that he be spared.

They, and a spate of groups, such as Murder Victims' Families for Reconciliation actively crusade to scrap the death for any and all killers, and that includes those facing death for murdering their loved ones.

Nice avatarpdrizz haha

Thanks, atodak. It's my favorite picture of our commander in chief.

Since we're on the topic of people being responsible for others deaths. How many is our president responsible for?Please elaborate on that statement. I want to be sure I understand what you mean before I respond.

Oh boy, this thread is spiraling downward quickly...

pm me if you really wanna talk about it, I don't want to change the subject anymore than I already have

Oh boy, this thread is spiraling downward quickly...Yep, and it started right about at the point where you two decided that this somehow had anything to do with President Bush. If we are in danger of getting this thread locked, I'll gladly take this topic to a new thread.

New topic was started. Way to go Matt A.

Back to topic on killing never being justified.

There are times when killing others is justified. Here are when it is legal (and in my opinion morally justified to kill another human).

1) In self-defense
2) In War (against armed combatants)
3) As punishment in a Capitol Offense
4) In law enforcement when you or other is threatened with lethal force.
5) Euthanasia. When party is competent and wishes to die.

What do others think?

I agree 100% with 1 thru 4. I'm still kind of "on the fence" with #5.

Matt a, well said as usual...

Joehn, I think you summed it up nicely!

#5 is up to the individual... I don't care what color socks you have on, I don't care if you want to kill yourself.

An eye for an eye is totally fair. However, I am completely against the death penalty for the simple reason that no systems is perfect and innocent people will die as a result of this policy. If even 1 INNOCENT person dies as a result of the death penalty, then that is 1 too many. Can you imagine how horrible it would be to die for a crime you didnt commit? *scary*

But in obvious cases where the person is guilty (ie 100 witnesses saw the crime), then I am all for the punishment.

I can see where a lot of people are coming from. But this quote has always been a truth to me.

"Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that killing people is wrong?"


Yea when someone does bad we think karma will re-pay them so to speak. And that since they did bad they deserve the same by the " do unto other what you would like have done to you" rule. But capitol punishment isnt a viable answer in my book. Yea Tookie could be bad but you just killed a mothers son, a brothers brother, Aunts nephew. Tookies family might have been great people and they just lost a loved one no matter how evil he could have been. And for that reason if there was a vote to abolish it I would vote to make sure that happened because my conscience couldnt be free knowing that the killers family would now have to feel pain. Let the killer spend the rest of his life in a 8 x 10 cell thinking about what he did. If he does change mentally then he should hate himself while he lives and to me thats fair payback.

^^^ :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: PREACH :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

If a loved one of mine was murdered and the killer didn't get the death penalty, i would most likely put out a hit on him.
The bottom line is that we are just monkeys, and we will always act like monkeys.
....
monkeys with guns.
....
hail Eris

"Why do we kill people who are killing people to show that killing people is wrong?"

We kill people who are killing people to show that sometimes killing people is wrong.

Important difference. See reasons 1-5 above, for when it is OK to kill people.

Killing innocent victims is wrong. Killing some people is sometimes justified and even desired.

I very much want to see Hussein and Bin Laden Killed.

I think being in prison for the rest of your life is worse then dying

I think being in prison for the rest of your life is worse then dying

Then why do the people in prison for life without parole usually fight their death penalties. Besides, I don't want to pay for people like John Wayne Gacy to paint pictures in prison.

It cost a lot to keep prisoners. I would rather see my tax money go elsewhere.

I have a hard time believing the death penalty is any kind of deterrent... that anyone that commits murder planned to get caught and is really concerned about the actual consequences at the time of the crime. I believe it is wrong for a human to kill another human deliberately unless in the case of self defense or the defense of family. I cannot speak from experience, I have not had a loved one killed. I also have little confidence in our legal system and its ability to punish everyone guilty and let everyone innocent free every time.

Hey im from wisconsin. Ever heard of steven avery. Man spent 18 years of his life in prison for a crime he didnt commit. DNA proved he didnt do it. So anyhow. They just arrested him for a murder he 99.9% probably did commit
Oh the irony

i dont see the death penalty as a deterent, however it does remove someone who is a threat to society which is more important. I think though thier is too much lag time from when someone is convicted until when someone is exectuted. Look at Scott Peterson, how can you say this guy does not deserve to die, but he'll be in his mid 50's by then. It needs to be carried out quicker. With todays technology thier is a very small chance someone who is on deathrow is the wrong person, so that is no longer an arugment. lite em" up........

An eye for an eye is totally fair. However, I am completely against the death penalty for the simple reason that no systems is perfect and innocent people will die as a result of this policy. If even 1 INNOCENT person dies as a result of the death penalty, then that is 1 too many. Can you imagine how horrible it would be to die for a crime you didnt commit? *scary*

But in obvious cases where the person is guilty (ie 100 witnesses saw the crime), then I am all for the punishment.
What do yall say about the innocent victims??? Can you imagine being put to death for going to the store???? That is what happened to little tookies victims.

The death penalty is not a deterrent! It isn't meant to be!!! It is punishment of a crime that is abhorent to mankind.

Again, I ask, have any of you ever looked down the barrel of a loaded gun in the hands of a killer?

An eye for an eye is totally fair. However, I am completely against the death penalty for the simple reason that no systems is perfect and innocent people will die as a result of this policy. If even 1 INNOCENT person dies as a result of the death penalty, then that is 1 too many. Can you imagine how horrible it would be to die for a crime you didnt commit? *scary*

But in obvious cases where the person is guilty (ie 100 witnesses saw the crime), then I am all for the punishment.
What do yall say about the innocent victims??? Can you imagine being put to death for going to the store???? That is what happened to little tookies victims.

The death penalty is not a deterrent! It isn't meant to be!!! It is punishment of a crime that is abhorent to mankind.

Again, I ask, have any of you ever looked down the barrel of a loaded gun in the hands of a killer?

:bow: Exactly. It is PUNISHMENT.

Now, if life in prision meant working 18 hours a day breaking rocks, sleeping and eating....They would beg for the death penalty. This working out, cable tv, video game, basketball playing prisoners is crap.

i dont see the death penalty as a deterent, however it does remove someone who is a threat to society which is more important. I think though thier is too much lag time from when someone is convicted until when someone is exectuted. Look at Scott Peterson, how can you say this guy does not deserve to die, but he'll be in his mid 50's by then. It needs to be carried out quicker. With todays technology thier is a very small chance someone who is on deathrow is the wrong person, so that is no longer an arugment. lite em" up........

All I can say about Scott is, I hope he keeps his boyish good looks until he takes his dirt nap.... He looks like he will make someone a nice wife.... :love:

I'm for, no surprise there, eh?

And IF prison rehabiltates, then why do soooooooooooo many convicts go back? And why do I have to fight 3 strike Felons at work?

PRISON DOES NOT REHABILITATE.

That's how I got hurt in the first place.

Arresting a Parolee, on parole for selling crack cocaine, hanging out on a "dope" corner, and what did he have on him when I finally got the handcuffs on him, 3 streets, 6 backyards, two physical altercations, and over 2.5 minutes later? 12 rocks, a loaded Ak-47 magazine, and $2k in cash. And he was 24.

Yeah right.

What??? How did you plant all that on him.. if he had been in prison, he was reformed.....



Squirrel, you take care of you, ok?

Yeah! You were infringing upon his personal rights as a citizen yo.

The death penalty definately deters at least one criminal. The one executed.

Yes, men in prison for murder have killed guards, other prisoners and innocent people, when they get out (many people sentenced for murder get out eventually).

But, they were rehabed when they got out according to some...


I don't know what I'd do if someone I loved was killed by someone that had no right to be out on the streets.

But, they were rehabed when they got out according to some...


I don't know what I'd do if someone I loved was killed by someone that had no right to be out on the streets.Oh, I have a pretty good idea what I would do. :gun:

What??? How did you plant all that on him.. if he had been in prison, he was reformed.....



Squirrel, you take care of you, ok?

LOL, I "should" be ok. Surgery has been approved and sacheduled for 03Jan, so if you guys don't see me online, you'll know why. I know some will be happy I won't be posting.

Ligament repair in the right wrist, and it should be 95%. Carpal tunnel in the right wrist, unk %. And ligament replacement in the right elbow, ink %. I just want the strength back in my right hand.

i dont know much about tookies crime, but i'm not for the death penalty, because even if you killed the 2-3 million people that are in jail right now for every single offense, there would still be crime and murders.

i've always said, if the gun makers were held more liable for deaths, they would take better precautions and not allow the streets to get flooded with weapons.

If car makers, baby bottle makers, painters, etc are held liable for deaths, so should smith n wesson.

whats sad is that, now that he's dead, they'll have more books, movies, videogames about this guy, and neither his family nor the families of the victims will see a dime.I think this is one of the most assinine comments I have ever read on this forum! :loser: :loser: :loser: You think it's Smith & Wessons fault that criminals kill people? What if the criminal used a claw hammer or baseball bat? Should Stanley and Louisville Slugger be dragged into court for a frivilous, time-consuming, and EXPENSIVE lawsuit that has no legal or even logical merit? This is just ____-poor thinking! Guns don't kill people, criminals do! Place the blame where it lies and don't blame a legal, lawful. long-standing well respected American company for some criminals actions. I happen to be a lawful gun owner and shooting sports enthusiast and my guns haven't killed anyone. I have some really nice Smith & Wesson firearms and don't appreciate having to pay so much extra in the price of a gun to cover the costs incurred by uninformed tree-hugging liberals who spout the same drivel as you just did. And as for Tookie, what you give is what you get. His only remorse was that he got caught. :loser: :loser: :loser:

But, they were rehabed when they got out according to some...


I don't know what I'd do if someone I loved was killed by someone that had no right to be out on the streets.Oh, I have a pretty good idea what I would do. :gun:

So do I, but I wanted to think I was above that. Then yall could discuss if I deserved to be put down like a rabid dog.

I am for the death penalty
He was a murderer and for his crimes the state appointed a penalty. Every man in his right mind knows the consequences of there actions. But than I come to wonder how any man in his right mind could kill someone.
As far as I know he did not appologize, which shows everyone that he was not rehabilitized, or repentent. I heard last night on the news a really stupid statement "How can anyone put a childrens book writer to death". Well, he's not a childrens book writer, he's a murderer.
I do not believe the Death Penalty should be so public, it should not be publisized. This only makes them mardyrs for someone else. They should not be rocognized, they dont diserve that.
And for keeping poeple for life? That is never going to work, because we dont have an unlimited amount of space in the prisons, infact I do believe we are already over crowded in just about every prison in the United States. Dont come yapping to me like I dont know what I'm talking about either, because I do, I've had family and close friends working in very huge prisons. Oh and my best friends dad is the warden of the Leavenworth CCA, a huge Federal prison Chain in the US. I do live in Leavenworth after all, We do have just about the most famous operatanal prison in the US, maybe you've heard of it, the Leavenworth Pen?
Yeah, he got what was coming to him, if he's sorry than good for him, it will make it a tad bit easier when he stands in front of God, but if he's not than poor guy.

i dont know much about tookies crime, but i'm not for the death penalty, because even if you killed the 2-3 million people that are in jail right now for every single offense, there would still be crime and murders.

i've always said, if the gun makers were held more liable for deaths, they would take better precautions and not allow the streets to get flooded with weapons.

If car makers, baby bottle makers, painters, etc are held liable for deaths, so should smith n wesson.

whats sad is that, now that he's dead, they'll have more books, movies, videogames about this guy, and neither his family nor the families of the victims will see a dime.I think this is one of the most assinine comments I have ever read on this forum! :loser: :loser: :loser: You think it's Smith & Wessons fault that criminals kill people? What if the criminal used a claw hammer or baseball bat? Should Stanley and Louisville Slugger be dragged into court for a frivilous, time-consuming, and EXPENSIVE lawsuit that has no legal or even logical merit? This is just ____-poor thinking! Guns don't kill people, criminals do! Place the blame where it lies and don't blame a legal, lawful. long-standing well respected American company for some criminals actions. I happen to be a lawful gun owner and shooting sports enthusiast and my guns haven't killed anyone. I have some really nice Smith & Wesson firearms and don't appreciate having to pay so much extra in the price of a gun to cover the costs incurred by uninformed tree-hugging liberals who spout the same drivel as you just did. And as for Tookie, what you give is what you get. His only remorse was that he got caught. :loser: :loser: :loser:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yeah, gun control is using the basic fundamentals of shooting, and making sure you hit the "X" ring!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:gun:

i dont know much about tookies crime, but i'm not for the death penalty, because even if you killed the 2-3 million people that are in jail right now for every single offense, there would still be crime and murders.

i've always said, if the gun makers were held more liable for deaths, they would take better precautions and not allow the streets to get flooded with weapons.

If car makers, baby bottle makers, painters, etc are held liable for deaths, so should smith n wesson.

whats sad is that, now that he's dead, they'll have more books, movies, videogames about this guy, and neither his family nor the families of the victims will see a dime.I think this is one of the most assinine comments I have ever read on this forum! :loser: :loser: :loser: You think it's Smith & Wessons fault that criminals kill people? What if the criminal used a claw hammer or baseball bat? Should Stanley and Louisville Slugger be dragged into court for a frivilous, time-consuming, and EXPENSIVE lawsuit that has no legal or even logical merit? This is just ____-poor thinking! Guns don't kill people, criminals do! Place the blame where it lies and don't blame a legal, lawful. long-standing well respected American company for some criminals actions. I happen to be a lawful gun owner and shooting sports enthusiast and my guns haven't killed anyone. I have some really nice Smith & Wesson firearms and don't appreciate having to pay so much extra in the price of a gun to cover the costs incurred by uninformed tree-hugging liberals who spout the same drivel as you just did. And as for Tookie, what you give is what you get. His only remorse was that he got caught. :loser: :loser: :loser:

Definately right on the nose with that rebuttal.
Would you sue Scion if someone intentionally hit you with their Scion!

You sue manufacturers when the product is defective and does not perform as advertised. So since guns are designed to shoot people, how is that defective. Now if the gun blows up in your face, different story, then you have a legit lawsuit.

Squirrel. Hang in there. Hope your surgery goes well. Thanks for you service in dealing with the scumbags of the world.

I have 5 rifles, 3 shotguns, and 4 hanguns. Mine must all be trained really well because none of them have left the house and killed anyone. They pretty-much just sit there unless I take them to do something. Very lazy, unmotivated guns.

The funniest thing is that guy is from New York, wher gun control is in full effect and has failed miserably. I live in Texas, a right-to -carry state and our crime rate is going down. Whoda thunk it???

I have 5 rifles, 3 shotguns, and 4 hanguns. Mine must all be trained really well because none of them have left the house and killed anyone. They pretty-much just sit there unless I take them to do something. Very lazy, unmotivated guns. :rofl:

Mine leave the house frequently for exercise at the local range. They have only killed paper targets. I can guarantee they would kill any armed intruders to my house.

Springfield M1A (M14)
Mossberg 12 guage shotgun (combat grip and setup)
Springfield 1911A1 45 WWII edition(with carbine conversion unit)
Berreta 9mm 92FS with crimson trace laser site
1861 Navy Colt (firing replica)
Brownbess Musket (firing replica)

Joehnn Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:18 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scott17 wrote:
DjCarlitoRoc wrote:
i dont know much about tookies crime, but i'm not for the death penalty, because even if you killed the 2-3 million people that are in jail right now for every single offense, there would still be crime and murders.

i've always said, if the gun makers were held more liable for deaths, they would take better precautions and not allow the streets to get flooded with weapons.

If car makers, baby bottle makers, painters, etc are held liable for deaths, so should smith n wesson.

whats sad is that, now that he's dead, they'll have more books, movies, videogames about this guy, and neither his family nor the families of the victims will see a dime.
I think this is one of the most assinine comments I have ever read on this forum! You think it's Smith & Wessons fault that criminals kill people? What if the criminal used a claw hammer or baseball bat? Should Stanley and Louisville Slugger be dragged into court for a frivilous, time-consuming, and EXPENSIVE lawsuit that has no legal or even logical merit? This is just ____-poor thinking! Guns don't kill people, criminals do! Place the blame where it lies and don't blame a legal, lawful. long-standing well respected American company for some criminals actions. I happen to be a lawful gun owner and shooting sports enthusiast and my guns haven't killed anyone. I have some really nice Smith & Wesson firearms and don't appreciate having to pay so much extra in the price of a gun to cover the costs incurred by uninformed tree-hugging liberals who spout the same drivel as you just did. And as for Tookie, what you give is what you get. His only remorse was that he got caught.


Definately right on the nose with that rebuttal.
Would you sue Scion if someone intentionally hit you with their Scion!

You sue manufacturers when the product is defective and does not perform as advertised. So since guns are designed to shoot people, how is that defective. Now if the gun blows up in your face, different story, then you have a legit lawsuit.

Squirrel. Hang in there. Hope your surgery goes well. Thanks for you service in dealing with the scumbags of the world.




Yes, no matter how many convicted murderers you do put to death you will have crimes and murders... but not by these pieces of human debris.

There are too many wasteful lawsuits now for people suing because of stupidity. If a product is defective, then the manufacturer should be held responsible. But gun manufacturers should not be liable for misuse of their products.
Now if your Uzi jams repeatedly during drive-bys at the school playground and you have to double back, then you need to sue for a defective product. But you shouldn't be allowed to sue for misuse. That is plain stupid.


I was just wondering if yall can see my posts...... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh boy, this thread is spiraling downward quickly...Yep, and it started right about at the point where you two decided that this somehow had anything to do with President Bush. If we are in danger of getting this thread locked, I'll gladly take this topic to a new thread.

I didn't say a word about the president, except for when I said I liked the picture of him in my avatar.

And I'm neutral concerning the death penalty because:

1) We need a deterent for serious crimes.

2) Prove to me we have a viable, cost effective, feasible alternative that ensures an equal or greater amount of protection/deterrance as the death penalty, and I'll be for it.

3) (For those who argue the cost issue, and the value of a human life) Yes, you can put a price on the life of a human. Automobile accidents are the third largest killer of people IN THE WORLD. Accidents supercede war, terrorism, and executions all put together. In fact, executions make up but a tiny grain of deaths in the world. If you truly value life, you'd do your best to protect the greatest number of lives possible. . . and stopping the death penalty would really save but a few people.

If you were to limit all cars to spees of 20MPH and lower, you save MILLIONS of lives. Think about it. The cost? Probably in the BILLIONS of dollars. That's why we have a 65MPH speed limit. High enough to ensure efficient shipping times, but also fast enough to kill people EVERYDAY.

Think about that the next time you drive a car (if you are against the death penalty).


djct_watt ain't no dummy! hahaha I am neutral when it comes to the death penalty as government policy as well. (My personal philosophy is against killing in any form, but since it would never be possible for everyone to share my beliefs, I try to approach the subjust with as much logic as possible). I'd say djct_watt has used the most logic and information in this whole thread.

I have a question that might rile up certain people and start up another thread. Where are all the conservative religious groups? If they are so religious and stick to the Bible word-for-word, why didn't they protest against Tookie's execution? Doesn't the Bible say to love their enemies and forgive all. Let he who has never sinned throw the first stone.....so, on and so forth. Sometimes it seems the religious right likes to pick and choose their battles just to gain political power rather than any kind of moral conviction :shock: Uh oh, should I not have said that?

And about the rehabilition and repeat offenders, all I have to say is that a large majority has to do with drug addiction. I guess that's for another topic....

djct_watt ain't no dummy! hahaha I am neutral when it comes to the death penalty as government policy as well. (My personal philosophy is against killing in any form, but since it would never be possible for everyone to share my beliefs, I try to approach the subjust with as much logic as possible). I'd say djct_watt has used the most logic and information in this whole thread.

I have a question that might rile up certain people and start up another thread. Where are all the conservative religious groups? If they are so religious and stick to the Bible word-for-word, why didn't they protest against Tookie's execution? Doesn't the Bible say to love their enemies and forgive all. Let he who has never sinned throw the first stone.....so, on and so forth. Sometimes it seems the religious right likes to pick and choose their battles just to gain political power rather than any kind of moral conviction :shock: Uh oh, should I not have said that?

And about the rehabilition and repeat offenders, all I have to say is that a large majority has to do with drug addiction. I guess that's for another topic....Wow....how many topics do you want to discuss in a single post? :silly:
I would consider myself a religious conservative, so I'll try to answer your question. Please keep in mind that I am only speaking for myself, not anyone else.
I believe the Bible is God's word and I also believe in capital punishment. Here is why:
The Bible clearly states that Kings and the heads of state have been put into place according to God's will. They have the power to rule with earthly authority. The laws that are put into place by our governmental system are to be followed as long as it doesn't contradict scripture. While it's true that we are to forgive and if we ask for forgiveness from God with a truely repentant heart, He will forgive us, it is also true that our sins have consequenses. Jesus wasn't saying that all criminals should just be forgiven without punishment or penalty.
You know, you make a point about most religious conservatives being for capital punishment. Now let me ask you this: Why is it that many of the people who will fight to save the life of a convicted killer are also pro-choice when it comes to killing an innocent baby?

Yes, no matter how many convicted murderers you do put to death you will have crimes and murders... but not by these pieces of human debris.

There are too many wasteful lawsuits now for people suing because of stupidity. If a product is defective, then the manufacturer should be held responsible. But gun manufacturers should not be liable for misuse of their products.
Now if your Uzi jams repeatedly during drive-bys at the school playground and you have to double back, then you need to sue for a defective product. But you shouldn't be allowed to sue for misuse. That is plain stupid.


I was just wondering if yall can see my posts...... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sorry missed that one. Pretty good.

You know, you make a point about most religious conservatives being for capital punishment. Now let me ask you this: Why is it that many of the people who will fight to save the life of a convicted killer are also pro-choice when it comes to killing an innocent baby?

Well, the pro-choice and the anti-capital punishment protesters are not neccessarily the same peopl. There may be overlap, but they don't all neccessarily fall back on the same religious/moral platform. I mean, one can be pro-choice and pro-death penalty for non-religious reasons. On the other hand, I find it hard to understand why someone would be anti-abortion for religious reasons, yet at the same time be pro-death penalty.

I find it hard to understand why someone would be anti-abortion for religious reasons, yet at the same time be pro-death penalty.Again, I am one of those people. For me, it's quite simple. The convicted murderer had a choice. He had a chance to live and lead a good life. He chose to kill.
The unborn baby who is killed during an abortion is innocent and does not have a choice or a say in the matter.

You know, you make a point about most religious conservatives being for capital punishment. Now let me ask you this: Why is it that many of the people who will fight to save the life of a convicted killer are also pro-choice when it comes to killing an innocent baby?

Well, the pro-choice and the anti-capital punishment protesters are not neccessarily the same peopl. There may be overlap, but they don't all neccessarily fall back on the same religious/moral platform. I mean, one can be pro-choice and pro-death penalty for non-religious reasons. On the other hand, I find it hard to understand why someone would be anti-abortion for religious reasons, yet at the same time be pro-death penalty.

I don't fit that group, but here goes:

Anti-abortion - ending an innocent life for convenience.
Pro-death penalty - ending an evil life through due process of law.

Any self-proclaimed "Christian" (or any other religios title for that matter) who condones the killing of others isn't a true Christian, no matter what you as an individual believe.

Any self-proclaimed "Christian" (or any other religios title for that matter) who condones the killing of others isn't a true Christian, no matter what you as an individual believe.That's a pretty inflammatory statement to make. Have you ever actually read the Bible? I am a Christian because I believe Jesus is exactly who he said he is, and because I have accepted the sacrifice he made on my behalf....period. The subject of capital punishment is a matter of state law. (see my previous posts on how that ties in).

Not sure what most religious people believe fully but I do know Nuns are held with high respect when it comes to obeying the church laws, and there was one that wanted to save Tookie and tried to console him in his time of death. Also from what I gathered in my 9 years of catholic school education is that you must love everyone because we are all gods creation. For those who sin and go against his wishes you must still love them, for it is gods job to punish them for their sins when they die and go to see him, or to eternal damnation, AKA hell.

I'm sick of my taxes paying for these a-holes.
With appeals and all it costs more money to execute some one than to sentence tthem to life without parole. Not a good argument IMHO


My 51st post all i can say is thank you Scionlife for giving me this opportunity to say
Burn in hell Tookie

With a 20 year wait to be executed, yes it costs more. They are much more efficient in Texas. I think the wait time is about a month or something.

I did a little research, and I guess I was wrong about all Christian groups. Apparanetly Catholics are supposed to be against abortion AND capital punishment as well as war....

In the end, I guess no matter what side anyone is on, they'll always be able rationalize with themselves for whatever it is they want to believe. Abortion, death penalty, war, whatever.

I have a question that might rile up certain people and start up another thread. Where are all the conservative religious groups? If they are so religious and stick to the Bible word-for-word, why didn't they protest against Tookie's execution? Doesn't the Bible say to love their enemies and forgive all. Let he who has never sinned throw the first stone.....so, on and so forth. Sometimes it seems the religious right likes to pick and choose their battles just to gain political power rather than any kind of moral conviction :shock: Uh oh, should I not have said that?

I'm a rather religious person in my own respects (I'm Mormon) and I'm somewhat a supporter of the Death Penalty. In the case of Tookie, I feel it was justified. I fail to see where the Bible says that crime should go unpunished. Yeah you should forgive people by not holding grudges but that still should not exempt them from punishment. One of the Commandments strictly states that "Thou shall not kill", he obviously didn't live by that Commandment. Without laws you have anarchy, the Commandments are God's Law. If every crime was met by forgiveness, then when would people learn? You'd have nothing but people running around killing each other going *BANG* "Oh forgive me" :P

Hey, I like to stake my claim as a Christian, but everyone knows that you are to be responsible for your actions here on earth. I can forgive tootie for what he did. And if he did indeed repent, the God has forgiven him as well. But that does not absolve him of the crimes he committed.

I'm a rather religious person in my own respects (I'm Mormon) and I'm somewhat a supporter of the Death Penalty. In the case of Tookie, I feel it was justified. I fail to see where the Bible says that crime should go unpunished. Yeah you should forgive people by not holding grudges but that still should not exempt them from punishment. One of the Commandments strictly states that "Thou shall not kill", he obviously didn't live by that Commandment. Without laws you have anarchy, the Commandments are God's Law. If every crime was met by forgiveness, then when would people learn? You'd have nothing but people running around killing each other going *BANG* "Oh forgive me" :P

Just to play devil's advocate (no pun intended): Isn't what you just said a circular argument? Tookie killed people. Bible says:Thou shall not kill. So kill Tookie. Do we kill the guy who killed tookie now?

Hey, I like to stake my claim as a Christian, but everyone knows that you are to be responsible for your actions here on earth. I can forgive tootie for what he did. And if he did indeed repent, the God has forgiven him as well. But that does not absolve him of the crimes he committed.

Sounds good to me :) But at what point do you integrate religious law with earthly law?

I am afraid I don't follow.. to me, all earthly law is based on religous law. I am not trying to be a smart alec, I truely want to understand the question...

Ah good point but the state has deemed the neccessary punishment for murder, death. The Bible is left for interpretation as well. I believe the "Thou shall not kill" applies to simply going up to someone and killing them. Tookie commited heinous crimes and the state deemed it appropriate. Others before me have stated that they'd kill in self defense, I would too. I don't find it to be much of a sin to kill if my own life is threatened. If the person at the head of state said to kill Tookie unjustly, then yes he is just as evil and should be dealt an appropriate punishment.

I am afraid I don't follow.. to me, all earthly law is based on religous law. I am not trying to be a smart alec, I truely want to understand the question...

Oh, haha, sorry, I just write off the top of my head sometimes...

I guess I mean, by earthly law, I meant government. The way I see it, the sole purpose for govt. is for protection of life and property. By religious law, I meant the bible/ten commandments/morality/right vs. wrong etc.

With my defintion, I don't believe earthly law is based on religious law. They may be similar, but their reasoning is different. For instance, religious law states it is wrong to steal because it is immoral. Earthly laws states one cannot steal because it belongs to someone else.

The Bible is left for interpretation as well. I believe the "Thou shall not kill" applies to simply going up to someone and killing them.

Didn't someone just go up to Tookie and kill him?

Tookie commited heinous crimes and the state deemed it appropriate. Others before me have stated that they'd kill in self defense, I would too. I don't find it to be much of a sin to kill if my own life is threatened. If the person at the head of state said to kill Tookie unjustly, then yes he is just as evil and should be dealt an appropriate punishment.

Sorry to keep pushing you, but by that logic we would need to kill Tookie in self-defense to make it OK. Am I right?

I'm a rather religious person in my own respects (I'm Mormon) and I'm somewhat a supporter of the Death Penalty. In the case of Tookie, I feel it was justified. I fail to see where the Bible says that crime should go unpunished. Yeah you should forgive people by not holding grudges but that still should not exempt them from punishment. One of the Commandments strictly states that "Thou shall not kill", he obviously didn't live by that Commandment. Without laws you have anarchy, the Commandments are God's Law. If every crime was met by forgiveness, then when would people learn? You'd have nothing but people running around killing each other going *BANG* "Oh forgive me" :P

Just to play devil's advocate (no pun intended): Isn't what you just said a circular argument? Tookie killed people. Bible says:Thou shall not kill. So kill Tookie. Do we kill the guy who killed tookie now?

Actually, the commandment is Thou Shall Not MURDER.

God knew when He created men with free wills that not all would follow and obey Him. However, He also knew that many would want to love and serve Him. In giving men free will, He also had to establish laws for men to live by. When we look at the Ten Commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17, we can see that these laws were given for the good of mankind. One of these laws is in verse 13: "Thou shalt not kill." You may wonder if God said "do not kill," why He would then decree that a murderer should be put to death. The reason is that the Hebrew meaning of the word translated as "kill" actually means "murder" or "to slay someone in a violent manner unjustly." So, in the Ten Commandments God is saying, "Thou shalt not murder."

Actually God Started the Death Penalty -

Genesis 9:5-6: "And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

Leviticus 24:17-22: "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast.
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.
22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God."

Where we find most of our problems with the two sides of capital punishment is that really both sides hold a truth of God. God's law of justice for the taking of a life demands that life be taken; yet, God's spiritual law of mercy and forgiveness grants that a murderer can be forgiven and restored. How can we reconcile this? We must understand that God instituted civil authorities to maintain order in the earth. God uses them to restrain evil and they should be obeyed for this purpose. In the New Testament we see that even Jesus surrendered to the governing authorities because He was submitted to God.

John 19:11: "Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above..."

Romans 13 (RSV)
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

From these verses we see that governments can elect to practice capital punishment, the harshest form of punishment.

..death penalty should be handed out within hours of the conviction , not years .
... maybe Tookie will come back as a Blood

Thanks ScionDad, that's kind of what I was trying to say but you said it much better. I'm tired and a have a final exam in an hour :shock:

Not sure what most religious people believe fully but I do know Nuns are held with high respect when it comes to obeying the church laws, and there was one that wanted to save Tookie and tried to console him in his time of death. Also from what I gathered in my 9 years of catholic school education is that you must love everyone because we are all gods creation. For those who sin and go against his wishes you must still love them, for it is gods job to punish them for their sins when they die and go to see him, or to eternal damnation, AKA hell.

If someone is a threat to innocent people, it is our duty to protect them. We aren't judging them, as God is the final judge, after death. We just make the meeting occur a little sooner.

I'm sure that Christians have no problem killing convicts. . . they've been killing people in the name of God ever sice the beginning. Remember the Crusades? The Indians? Gee. . . what happened to the Aztecs. . . I don't think religion has anything to do with this.

what tookie is dead lol jokeing this is bull poop he should have been put down like a rabbit dog a long time ago

We aren't judging them, as God is the final judge, after death. We just make the meeting occur a little sooner.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :bow: :clap:

Any self-proclaimed "Christian" (or any other religios title for that matter) who condones the killing of others isn't a true Christian, no matter what you as an individual believe.

It's hard for be to validate these, as I do read the bible, but I'm not Christian. . . go figure.

But if someone was about to kill 5 million people, and you could stop the murderer by killing him, would you not?

In a sense, inaction leads to more death. And your inaction would be the indirect cause of murder. So wouldn't you be a murderer?

Should we not have gone to war with Germany in World War II? If I understand your point correctly, we would have let Germany win the war, because it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to win the war without killing a single person. So as good Christians, we should have just let Hitler win? Is that what you're saying?

Pdrizzle. . . are you a vegetarian? Do you eat meat? Are the lives of 5 million cows worth the life of 1 person. Are the lives of 3 billion people worth the life of one? What about 5 people. . . that Tookie killed. . . The valuation of life is VERY difficult, especially when it comes to politics.

What if you had to choose to save the lives of either 10 children or 5 adults? How about 1 murderer and the extremely high statistical chance that he will kill 4 more people? It's not entirely black and white.

Actually, the commandment is Thou Shall Not MURDER.

God knew when He created men with free wills that not all would follow and obey Him. However, He also knew that many would want to love and serve Him. In giving men free will, He also had to establish laws for men to live by. When we look at the Ten Commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17, we can see that these laws were given for the good of mankind. One of these laws is in verse 13: "Thou shalt not kill." You may wonder if God said "do not kill," why He would then decree that a murderer should be put to death. The reason is that the Hebrew meaning of the word translated as "kill" actually means "murder" or "to slay someone in a violent manner unjustly." So, in the Ten Commandments God is saying, "Thou shalt not murder."


Ah ok. I see, so it is in the way "kill" is interpreted. "Kill" means "murder" and "murder" means "slay in a violent, unjustly manner." So we can safely assume dealth penalty (i.e. crucifixtion) was OK way back when the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) were written. I get that part: the death penalty back then was OK (even for adultery, blasphemy, etc). I just get confused by the Gospels in the New Testament which stress mercy, reconcilliation, etc. I thought the whole crucifixtion story was sort of an anti-death penalty message.

Any self-proclaimed "Christian" (or any other religios title for that matter) who condones the killing of others isn't a true Christian, no matter what you as an individual believe.

It's hard for be to validate these, as I do read the bible, but I'm not Christian. . . go figure.

But if someone was about to kill 5 million people, and you could stop the murderer by killing him, would you not?

In a sense, inaction leads to more death. And your inaction would be the indirect cause of murder. So wouldn't you be a murderer?

Should we not have gone to war with Germany in World War II? If I understand your point correctly, we would have let Germany win the war, because it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to win the war without killing a single person. So as good Christians, we should have just let Hitler win? Is that what you're saying?

I agree with djct on this one.

I know Catholic history ain't pretty, but whatever doctrine they have now sounds good....I copied this from americancatholic.org:

Just cause. - War is permissible only to confront "a real and certain danger," i.e., to protect innocent life, to preserve conditions necessary for decent human existence and to secure basic human rights.
Competent authority. - War must be declared by those with responsibility for public order, not by private groups or individuals.
Comparative justice. - In essence: Which side is sufficiently "right" in a dispute, and are the values at stake critical enough to override the presumption against war? Do the rights and values involved justify killing? Given techniques of propaganda and the ease with which nations and individuals either assume or delude themselves into believing that God or right is clearly on their side, the test of comparative justice may be extremely difficult to apply.
Right intention. - War can be legitimately intended only for the reasons set forth above as a just cause.
Last resort. - For resort to war to be justified, all peaceful alternatives must have been exhausted.
Probability of success. - This is a difficult criterion to apply, but its purpose is to prevent irrational resort to force or hopeless resistance when the outcome of either will clearly be disproportionate or futile.
Proportionality. - This means that the damage to be inflicted and the costs incurred by war must be proportionate to the good expected by taking up arms.

I don't think religion has anything to do with this.

You're right, the death penalty has nothing to do with religion. It is all about public protection, not any sort of moral judgment. The real issue is whether death or life in prison is sufficient to protect public safetry and order.

I brought up the religion thing cause I was curious about the religious right's stance on the death penalty considering they like to bring up the morality issue when it comes to public policy.

I am afraid I don't follow.. to me, all earthly law is based on religous law. I am not trying to be a smart alec, I truely want to understand the question...

Oh, haha, sorry, I just write off the top of my head sometimes...

I guess I mean, by earthly law, I meant government. The way I see it, the sole purpose for govt. is for protection of life and property. By religious law, I meant the bible/ten commandments/morality/right vs. wrong etc.

With my defintion, I don't believe earthly law is based on religious law. They may be similar, but their reasoning is different. For instance, religious law states it is wrong to steal because it is immoral. Earthly laws states one cannot steal because it belongs to someone else.
Hey, sorry you may already have the answer you wanted, but I got busy with work....

To me, the 2 types of law are intertwined... The Bible says not to steal because it is immoral, very true.. but man's law says not to because it isn't yours, that makes it immoral for you to take it....In my little mind, they are the same, just fewer words. I am probably wrong, but it's what gets me thru the day.
All man's laws can be traced back to the top 10....in one form or another.

Not sure what most religious people believe fully but I do know Nuns are held with high respect when it comes to obeying the church laws, and there was one that wanted to save Tookie and tried to console him in his time of death. Also from what I gathered in my 9 years of catholic school education is that you must love everyone because we are all gods creation. For those who sin and go against his wishes you must still love them, for it is gods job to punish them for their sins when they die and go to see him, or to eternal damnation, AKA hell.

If someone is a threat to innocent people, it is our duty to protect them. We aren't judging them, as God is the final judge, after death. We just make the meeting occur a little sooner.

I'm sure that Christians have no problem killing convicts. . . they've been killing people in the name of God ever sice the beginning. Remember the Crusades? The Indians? Gee. . . what happened to the Aztecs. . . I don't think religion has anything to do with this.

That is such TRIPE and such a unfounded conception. It ranks up there with Separation of Church and State LIE.

First of all, men have been killing other men since, well Cain and Abel. The Crusades if you would choose to read a history book (several is a better option) was in response to the Islamic movement of Mohammad in the 7th Century push across Asia and Europe. Taking back what was once theirs was the "Crusades"....but in todays society, that's NOT PC to say. Hmmm, looks similiar to what's happening today with Mohammads Islam...but that's another history lesson..

A man breaks into your home and steals your coat, shirt, pants, shoes, hat and leaves. Once gone, the thief robs a bank wearing the clothes he stole from you. The police come to your door and arrest you for robbing the bank. You say obviously it was not you. The police say....it looked like you, your hat, your shirt, coat, shoes....Nope it was you! You respond....It may have LOOKED like me on the outside...but on the inside it was not me. They may have LOOKED like Christians....BUT

I'm not judging on Christians, I think you missed my point ScionDad. I know it was a response the Islamic Movement, but my point was that religion and killing are not inseperable. You don't have to defend your relgion. . . we all know that modern and most Christians are not murderers. . .

I'm not judging on Christians, I think you missed my point ScionDad. I know it was a response the Islamic Movement, but my point was that religion and killing are not inseperable. You don't have to defend your relgion. . . we all know that modern and most Christians are not murderers. . .

Well, you stated "I'm sure that Christians have no problem killing convicts. . . they've been killing people in the name of God ever sice the beginning."

Kinda sounds like I did have to respond. Sorry if I took it wrong.

I'm not a fan of capital punishment and certainly not without a 100% guarantee they are guilty. Like finding body parts in the fridge as they are eating it kinda thing. 99% sure of guilt should mean life of hard labor, paying for their stay.

1 innocent man being put to death is 1 too many

but 1 guilty one being put to death is just right.

there are two types of deterrents; general and specific. general deterrents, in theory, deter others from commiting the same crime because of the potential punishment. specific deterrents deter the individual who commited the crime from commiting it again. obviously, capital punishment is very high in specific deterrency but it has been shown that it is very low in general deterrency. this is because most murders are commited in the heat of the moment and generally by someone known to the victim and planned murders are carried out by people who are very aware of the potential consequences and "plan" on not being caught.

capital punishment is retribution, plain and simple. killing has rules. we agree when it is okay, i.e., war, capital punishment, some instances of euthanasia, suicides, etc.

when one kills outside the rules we as a society get pretty ticked. it threatens the fabric of agreed upon killing. so we kill them.

we are as responsible for tookie's death as we are for the people tookie killed.

Yup, it's a very tough debate guys, and it's a lot more than simply black and white.

There are two sides to the issue:

1) The protection of life (despite wrong doing) and the possible death of the wrongly accused

2) The protection of life of the innocent from those who wish to do harm. . . (rehabilitation does not work, and the vast majority of criminals are repeat offenders).

It all comes down to your particular valuation of life. . . is a criminial's life worth just as much as the possible future victims? And if we were to spare criminals' lives, would be responsible and accountable for the deaths of future innocent victims, should the convicts decide to repeat their offenses.

2) Is added safety worth the possibility of mistakenly executing a few people?

Again, it's a big question of quantity. . . which is why the death penalty still exists. The number of innocent convicts executed is far and few. The number of people saved from future violations is HUGE. This is a FACT.

But, the question of 1 life versus 10 is also a pretty lame question, which is VERY difficult to answer.

Here's the bottom line guys. . . the vast majority (at least here in CA) still support the death penalty. . . and it doesn't look like it's going to go anywhere. If you can't see both sides of the debate, and at least acknowledge the complexity of the problem, then you are blind to the true innocent people. . . the victims. . . or you are heartless SOB who knows nothing of redemption. . .

It's not clear cut, it's not black and white. . . and that's why it's just a fierce debate.

Me, I'll say it again, I'm neutral. The deepest, most complex questions of this issue are not answerable, not by me, and not by most of you. If there is such thing as God, perhaps He would know. But as men and mortals, we lack the knowledge and the right to judge the lives of future innocent victims AND/OR the lives of potentially innocent convicts.

Until the day we get an answer, politics and economics win. And at that point, it all just comes down to numbers.

Game over!

That dude got biggest arms and 'fros i've seen. R.I.P. Tookie!

Romans 13 (RSV)
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

From these verses we see that governments can elect to practice capital punishment, the harshest form of punishment.

im glad someone remembered this

I didn't go through all the posts but I had to just drop one point.

I'm not gonna get into weather he should or shouldn't have been executed but there is one thing that bothers me from the get go.

People keep talking about his lack of remorse and "Not apologizing"

No I don't know about you all but I usually don't show remorse or apologize for actions that I DID NOT commit.

I don't know whether he did or didn't commit the crime and a jury conviction just isn't proof enough to me that he is actually guilty but he said he didn't do it so why should he apologize or show remorse?

On another note, Tookie did not found the crips. Raymond Washington is the actual founder of the Crips. Tookie didn't even join the crips until 2 years later. Also originally the Crip gang was started to provide protection for the residents of south central LA much like the guardian angels. Obviously they fell waaay of track. Tookie was also a big part of the Truce between the bloods and crips which was a major feat in itself.

In closing, to me on a generic level. If a death row inmate is making a positive contribution to society (in this case children's books and helping to influence violent gang members to change their ways) they should not be put to death. Also, if the community where the person is from/serving their time writes thousands of letters and sign petitions calling for the grant of clemency, I think maybe the people appointed governor might want to take a little bit of a harder look at that. Sure maybe more people thought he should be executed than those that thought otherwise but I didn't hear about them feeling strongly enough to write letters or sign petitions to counter the clemency supporters. Not saying they didn't but I didn't hear about it if they did.

Scott17 worteThe funniest thing is that guy is from New York, wher gun control is in full effect and has failed miserably. I live in Texas, a right-to -carry state and our crime rate is going down. Whoda thunk it???
_________________

In texas felons can also possess guns on their property.... go figure

People keep talking about his lack of remorse and "Not apologizing" No I don't know about you all but I usually don't show remorse or apologize for actions that I DID NOT commit. I don't know whether he did or didn't commit the crime and a jury conviction just isn't proof enough to me that he is actually guilty but he said he didn't do it so why should he apologize or show remorse?

he did it, he killed them in cold blood. he laughed at one victim's death rattle.

If a death row inmate is making a positive contribution to society (in this case children's books and helping to influence violent gang members to change their ways) they should not be put to death.

so, by that logic if i kill a bunch of folk then write "how the grinch stole christmas but he was a bad grinch for doing so", i get to live?

i'm being facetious and making light of your arguments and shouldn't do so. i apologize. but i would bet that most death row inmates find "god" or find "dr. seuss" or find "that freakin' one thing that'll get me out of being killed".

tookie had the nation's ear but he was no more valuable than the poor saps being killed in texas or bumf southern u.s., who don't have the celebrity ear.

when we kill anyone we are killing ourselves.

he did it, he killed them in cold blood. he laughed at one vicim's death rattle.

He did? You were there?

My point was that HE said he didnt do it so of course he's not going to apologize or show remorse. I dont know if he did it or not, that wasnt what I was arguing.

so, by that logic if i kill a bunch of folk then write "how the grinch stole christmas but he was a bad grinch for doing so", i get to live?

Yes and no. If you go out and kill some people and 25 years later you are being nominated for 9 Nobel prizes and helping to lay the groundwork for a monumental truce between two major rival gangs then yes you should be spared because you are helping to save more lives than you took. What has the average non-murderer done to save lives? Buy a yellow bracelet? This was long before any celebrity BS. This was him doing what he felt he needed to do. If all you do is write how the grinch stole Christmas than no, you should be killed regardless of guilt of murder because "the grinch" is a homo.

Also, again my point wasn’t so much about tookie but a general statement for any death row inmate. What if a death row inmate was somehow able to ease tension in Iraq and enabled all of our troops to come home? Should he be put to death after that? Of course it’s a highly unlikely scenario but the question remains.

First let me say I am for the death penalty in certain cases. This was one of them.

Now I feel the need whether its been said here or not ( I didnt look through most of the posts) that on Google News right now there are over 3,000 articles covering this topic. Not a single one of them tells exclusively about the life and times of those 'Tookie' killed. All of them glorify someone who was put to death having been found guilty of four senseless murders. I dont care what he did in prison. I dont care how much good he did or could have done. He thoughtlessly killed four people who were trying to make a living towards a better life and he stole that from them. What celebreties were fighting for the victims rights? What rapper wrote and recorded a song about those that died as a result of gang violence?

Was death a justifiable sentence? I am not the person to judge on this earth. I only need to judge my actions and the results of my actions. My personal belief is that God will take care of true judgement anyway. That being said, weigh in your mind the life of a convicted killer against those of four people who were productive members of society who did not start one of the most ruthless senseless gangs in the history of man, did not kill people, did not steal, or hurt for fun.

The choice seems clear in my mind but thats the glory of living in America. You have the choice to say and believe whatever you choose.

He did? You were there?

no, but apparently people were.

If you go out and kill some people and 25 years later you are being nominated for 9 Nobel prizes and helping to lay the groundwork for a monumental truce between two major rival gangs then yes you should be spared because you are helping to save more lives than you took.

so let's say i killed your entire family in cold blood, all 10 of them. then in some quirk of fate i saved 11 gang member inmates in a prison fire....i get to live, huh? i promise to teach gang members to save themselves in a fire....and i'll write a book on how to live through prison fires. but i will not admit to the hurt i caused the families of the folk i killed.

or how about i'm a really good surgeon....can i get four "free" kills if i promise to save everyone else who comes under my knife from then on?


tookie's death was payment for the lives he took in cold blood. remember, his "guilt" was not legally in question. it wasn't about killing an innocent man. it was about killing a guilty man who wanted you to believe he was "changed" (but not changed enought that he took resposibility for his actions and was willing to assist law enforcement). it took 20 plus years to exhaust the "did he do it" stuff.

if tookie was "innocent", and remorceful for creating the gang why not assist law enforcement by cooperating with law enforcement before being killed? he refused to do so. "poseur".

listen....imo, had he found a freakin' cure for cancer, by law, he still had the debt to pay for the four lives he took in cold blood. "thanks tookie for that whole cancer cure bro, but you killed them folk....you gotta go". we'll see you again, i'm sure.

I hardly think you can equate a prison fire to a gang truce but its whatever. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. There’s no use going back and forth, it’s not like we are going to change one another’s mind. I just feel like if 25 years later you are making a significant contribution to society and you are doing something that saves lives you should be kept alive to continue your contributions. I understand the law but the ability of the governor or even the president to grant clemency is also a law. Either way, to me unless there’s DNA evidence I wouldn’t feel comfortable handing down the death penalty. I understand you feel the opposite way, which is great. If everyone did the exact same thing nobody would have an identity.

If you killed my family I would testify FOR you in your defense :lalala:

On another note, Tookie did not found the crips. Raymond Washington is the actual founder of the Crips. Tookie didn't even join the crips until 2 years later. Also originally the Crip gang was started to provide protection for the residents of south central LA much like the guardian angels. Obviously they fell waaay of track. Tookie was also a big part of the Truce between the bloods and crips which was a major feat in itself.

Have you ever even lived in LA?! You seem to be an expert on his history.

I'm done replying on this thread. . . this topic makes me nauseas. Guilty or not, he was still the scum of society. Some of you make him out to be some sort of God or something.

There are FAR more important and verifiably innocent people who are killed everyday that deserve my attention. Tookie doesn't even deserve 10 minutes. Genecide is still common place in this world (heard of Nigeria?) but Tookie gets the spot light. There are FAR more important battles for life that need to be fought.

Lessons learned? Don't be involved in gangs. You might kill someone, or you might be mistakenly convicted of killing people. Either way, you are still scum.

I'm with you JustynTime.

1epoxybox everything that Just said can be found on yahoo.com

they should have beheaded him in the center of town..... public execution!!!! j/j, but he needed 2 die

Scott17 worteThe funniest thing is that guy is from New York, wher gun control is in full effect and has failed miserably. I live in Texas, a right-to -carry state and our crime rate is going down. Whoda thunk it???
_________________

In texas felons can also possess guns on their property.... go figureUmmm... They can? That's a new one on me, but I'm quite sure you must be much more informed. I want to go figure, but your point escaped me. What exactly was it again???

Helloooo! Even the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, (unequivocally the most liberal court in the land) through all the appeals etc. didn't overturn the original conviction. So what does that tell you people? Finally, he reaped what he sowed.

oh lord
he did wrong....
god is make believe

wether or not he dies his anti gang literature will still be read. is message will still be heard....

e killed he dies..

but his books may help people understand gangs and keep children from it.

what's done is done, we don't know for sure that he killed anyone....he was only convicted of them. Killing him did not bring the people back who are dead now. Nothing good really came out of it, everyone lost something. Life goes on for the rest of us.

what's done is done, we don't know for sure that he killed anyone....he was only convicted of them. Killing him did not bring the people back who are dead now. Nothing good really came out of it, everyone lost something. Life goes on for the rest of us.
Something did come of it...We as a nation are safer because a very bad man is gone. A jury of his peers convicted him, years of appeals did not show he was innocent, and I feel safer for my family. Call me selfish... I am.

you feel safer for your family? First of all you live where? Nowhere near him, and the fact that you probably have a serial killer living next door to you and you just don't know it yet, you feel safer that someone is dead halfway accross the U.S. I mean get real, just because someone is convicted of a crime does not mean they did it. Wasn't there a man recently let out of prison after 26 years when they discovered he didn't commit a crime that he was charged for? Nothing did come of it. It was interesting that they said he still said he did not kill those people even when confessing if he had done it would have spared his life. I'm not saying either way he did it or not, I wasn't there to know that, as I assume you weren't either. But to say you feel safer because he's dead and there are probably worse people living near you is bogus.

^^Good point, you could be livin close to this guy
http://media.putfile.com/NiceFriendlyMan

you feel safer for your family? First of all you live where? Nowhere near him, and the fact that you probably have a serial killer living next door to you and you just don't know it yet, you feel safer that someone is dead halfway accross the U.S. I mean get real, just because someone is convicted of a crime does not mean they did it. Wasn't there a man recently let out of prison after 26 years when they discovered he didn't commit a crime that he was charged for? Nothing did come of it. It was interesting that they said he still said he did not kill those people even when confessing if he had done it would have spared his life. I'm not saying either way he did it or not, I wasn't there to know that, as I assume you weren't either. But to say you feel safer because he's dead and there are probably worse people living near you is bogus.Ummm...yeah, I'm pretty sure that was a figure of speach. I don't think he actually feels safer now that Tootie has been executed.

you feel safer for your family? First of all you live where? Nowhere near him, and the fact that you probably have a serial killer living next door to you and you just don't know it yet, you feel safer that someone is dead halfway accross the U.S. I mean get real, just because someone is convicted of a crime does not mean they did it. Wasn't there a man recently let out of prison after 26 years when they discovered he didn't commit a crime that he was charged for? Nothing did come of it. It was interesting that they said he still said he did not kill those people even when confessing if he had done it would have spared his life. I'm not saying either way he did it or not, I wasn't there to know that, as I assume you weren't either. But to say you feel safer because he's dead and there are probably worse people living near you is bogus.
You bet you @ss I feel safer... every dead murderer is one less murderer....
I asked a few pages back if anyone here had ever stared down the barrel of a loaded gun... No one bothered to answer...
Well, let me tell you something for you in your white bread world... Until you are about 2 lbs. of trigger pressure away from dieing, you don't know what fear and terror are! But for the grace of God, I should be dead today and some thug gang banger would be on the streets today. Maybe your street. I would hope not. The 2 that had me in their sights were just let out of jail that morning for ....MURDER.... Yes, bail is a wonderful thing.
No, I don't live near where your wonderfull little tookie was ...I don't have to. I have zero tollerance for such cowards no matter where they live. And no, I don't have a serial killer living next door. I do have a child molester right down the road, so to protect my 2 daughters, I keep a loaded gun nearby.
No, being convicted of a crime does not mean you did it, but if you can't prove your innocence in 20 some odd years, that tells me you did it.
I hope that violence never touches you or any member of your family so you can continue to live in ignorance.

I have a picture of one of tookies victims from the hotel. He shot this woman with a shotgun un the face. I am glad he is dead. Wish his death would of been cruel and unusual. BTW merry Xmas. Burn in hell tookie

Scroll down for a picture Warning extreme warning Dont look unless you are able to handle it.
Description Actual autopsie photo of Yee-Chen Lin one of the many people he killed
After seeing this photo you tell me if death wasnt warranted for Poor Poor tookie

Edited
please check link in post below

um...you may have wanted to link that...it's not much harder than posting it. scionlife shows you how to do it. like this:

hey all....this is a pretty gnarley photo of a tookie victim. it is really gross. if you need to see it, it is HERE (http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/6967/tookievictim3adweb2qt.jpg).

Thank you i really tried to have a link to it. Kept screwing it up. Appreciate the help

Thank you i really tried to have a link to it. Kept screwing it up. Appreciate the help

np. but for future reference, it's not the kind of photo you want people to "scroll down" to... they kinda have to go there to get to the next post. you want this type of photo to be on another page. folk that want to see it have to do something to get there. otherwise, no one can scroll past your warning without scolling down a bit before seeing a horrible image. there would be no further pearls of wisdom on this topic unless we scrolled past your gross photo.

HERE (http://www.scionlife.com/forums/faq.php?mode=bbcode#3) is where you relearn the coding

you feel safer for your family? First of all you live where? Nowhere near him, and the fact that you probably have a serial killer living next door to you and you just don't know it yet, you feel safer that someone is dead halfway accross the U.S. I mean get real, just because someone is convicted of a crime does not mean they did it. Wasn't there a man recently let out of prison after 26 years when they discovered he didn't commit a crime that he was charged for? Nothing did come of it. It was interesting that they said he still said he did not kill those people even when confessing if he had done it would have spared his life. I'm not saying either way he did it or not, I wasn't there to know that, as I assume you weren't either. But to say you feel safer because he's dead and there are probably worse people living near you is bogus.
You bet you @ss I feel safer... every dead murderer is one less murderer....
I asked a few pages back if anyone here had ever stared down the barrel of a loaded gun... No one bothered to answer...
Well, let me tell you something for you in your white bread world... Until you are about 2 lbs. of trigger pressure away from dieing, you don't know what fear and terror are! But for the grace of God, I should be dead today and some thug gang banger would be on the streets today. Maybe your street. I would hope not. The 2 that had me in their sights were just let out of jail that morning for ....MURDER.... Yes, bail is a wonderful thing.
No, I don't live near where your wonderfull little tookie was ...I don't have to. I have zero tollerance for such cowards no matter where they live. And no, I don't have a serial killer living next door. I do have a child molester right down the road, so to protect my 2 daughters, I keep a loaded gun nearby.
No, being convicted of a crime does not mean you did it, but if you can't prove your innocence in 20 some odd years, that tells me you did it.
I hope that violence never touches you or any member of your family so you can continue to live in ignorance.

I'd rather live in ignorance than to live the rest of my days in fear. What kind of life is that...it isn't! If it is your time to go then there's nothing you can do about it. A loaded gun can't even prevent that from happening. So before you start to judge people saying that they're living in ignorance, you need to examine yourself and your situation before you begin to address mine. Only God can judge me.

Im with Chillaxin, id rather live in ignorance. In CA we have Megan's Law. It makes it a requirement for sex offenders to register their home address or face felony charges. Your whole world changes when you find out the person living down the street has been convicted for sexual molestation on under-age boys when you yourself have a boy. Anyone in CA curious go to meganslaw.ca/gov I believe, or google it and punch in your street.
When its your time to go its your time. But you can pause that clock if your informed and stay out of harmful situations.....

I agree yet disagree...I feel its something like Final Destination. When its your time, its your time. No matter what, death will get you. It may be avoided one way, but then a whole nother way comes and gets you. There is no way to cheat death, if there was I doubt most anyone would be dying.

I'm against the death penalty, but I'm not losing any sleep over Tookie. He was a despicable human being who showed no remorse for his crimes, continued to run the Crips from in jail and brainwashed people in to thinking he had reformed his life.

It's such a total fraud that his name was even used in the same sentence as "Nobel Peace Prize". Dude was so gully he told the jury "I'm going to get each and every one of you mf-ers" for christ's sake.

Am I the only one here who happen to notice than the prosecutors never had substancial evidence that linked Tookie to the crime??


The DNA was not a 100% match which when trying to match it with someone has to match without a doubt. nothing there

The finger prints on the gun didnt match tookies. nothing there

as a matter of fact the owner of the shotgun happened to be the leading witness against tookie williams. that says something.

look all i know is that when the justice system wants to find a fall guy for a crime. they can pick and choose almost anyone. From personal expercience you never know. unless they had more evidence without any kind of doubt or chance that it could have been someone else then i cant put someones death on my hands.


also lets not forget the fact that Gov. Terminator wasnt gonna set him free on the streets he was just going to let him live out his life in prison .

weather he did it or not i think he did a lot of good with his yrs in prison and im sure if you ask the people he helped out......they would tell you the same.

*Read up on the trial and you will see all of the holes in the prosecutors case!!! then make you decision.

now before yall start saying sh!@T i dont think he should have been freed just let him die naturally in prison. Thats all that this was about nothing else

^^^Good point :clap:

Without rehashing all the debate about capital punishment (mostly because I'm tired of it) I'm just currious why "Tookie" got all of this national attention. There are prisoners put to death all the time, yet he practically got celebrity status. I wonder why. There wasn't any real debate as to his guilt, he hadn't shown any remorse, he wasn't a model prisoner....and yet the media and a few "stars" rallied to save him. I just don't get it. Why him, and not any of the other people sentenced to death? There are lots of people on death row who claim to be innocent, or who have changed and are now positive, productive people. Why did Tookie get all of the attention?

you feel safer for your family? First of all you live where? Nowhere near him, and the fact that you probably have a serial killer living next door to you and you just don't know it yet, you feel safer that someone is dead halfway accross the U.S. I mean get real, just because someone is convicted of a crime does not mean they did it. Wasn't there a man recently let out of prison after 26 years when they discovered he didn't commit a crime that he was charged for? Nothing did come of it. It was interesting that they said he still said he did not kill those people even when confessing if he had done it would have spared his life. I'm not saying either way he did it or not, I wasn't there to know that, as I assume you weren't either. But to say you feel safer because he's dead and there are probably worse people living near you is bogus.
You bet you @ss I feel safer... every dead murderer is one less murderer....
I asked a few pages back if anyone here had ever stared down the barrel of a loaded gun... No one bothered to answer...
Well, let me tell you something for you in your white bread world... Until you are about 2 lbs. of trigger pressure away from dieing, you don't know what fear and terror are! But for the grace of God, I should be dead today and some thug gang banger would be on the streets today. Maybe your street. I would hope not. The 2 that had me in their sights were just let out of jail that morning for ....MURDER.... Yes, bail is a wonderful thing.
No, I don't live near where your wonderfull little tookie was ...I don't have to. I have zero tollerance for such cowards no matter where they live. And no, I don't have a serial killer living next door. I do have a child molester right down the road, so to protect my 2 daughters, I keep a loaded gun nearby.
No, being convicted of a crime does not mean you did it, but if you can't prove your innocence in 20 some odd years, that tells me you did it.
I hope that violence never touches you or any member of your family so you can continue to live in ignorance.

I'd rather live in ignorance than to live the rest of my days in fear. What kind of life is that...it isn't! If it is your time to go then there's nothing you can do about it. A loaded gun can't even prevent that from happening. So before you start to judge people saying that they're living in ignorance, you need to examine yourself and your situation before you begin to address mine. Only God can judge me.

Chill, if you refuse to accept what happens I will call that ignorance. I don't live in fear. I live in the real world. People are bad. Some people have forfeited the right to live among law abiding people. I have examined my situation and have come to this conclusion, I will use a gun if it comes down to it, as a last resort. If any other criminal tries to harm my family or take my stuff, I will use it. Yes, only God can judge, I never said I could. But I will be ready to carry out God's judgement if He gives me the nod.
Yes, when it is your time, nothing can stop your departure from this earth. But, if you are not ready to defend what is near and dear to you, your time will be here quicker.

With your criminal loving attitude, you might want to reexamine your situation and find you a nice plot of land. You will need it sooner rather than later, I am afraid.

^^Well said!^^ :clap: :clap: I agree 100%.
If you want to know how I feel about using a gun to defend my family, break into my house. You'll find out real fast.

It's only pre-meditated if you reload...... :lol:

LOL!!! :rofl:

Do you two know each other??

Our mothers hung out their wash under the same sun.

No, but it should scare matt that we think so much alike........:lol:

Do you two know each other??
Nope...we've never met. But I have read enough of his posts to know that he and I share similar views on many issues.

Except he is smarter than I am....Much more self control.

Except he is smarter than I am....Much more self control.I doubt it....but thanks.

Too much time and taxpayer money has been wasted on that waste of flesh.

No too much band width has been wasted, too!

you feel safer for your family? First of all you live where? Nowhere near him, and the fact that you probably have a serial killer living next door to you and you just don't know it yet, you feel safer that someone is dead halfway accross the U.S. I mean get real, just because someone is convicted of a crime does not mean they did it. Wasn't there a man recently let out of prison after 26 years when they discovered he didn't commit a crime that he was charged for? Nothing did come of it. It was interesting that they said he still said he did not kill those people even when confessing if he had done it would have spared his life. I'm not saying either way he did it or not, I wasn't there to know that, as I assume you weren't either. But to say you feel safer because he's dead and there are probably worse people living near you is bogus.
You bet you @ss I feel safer... every dead murderer is one less murderer....
I asked a few pages back if anyone here had ever stared down the barrel of a loaded gun... No one bothered to answer...
Well, let me tell you something for you in your white bread world... Until you are about 2 lbs. of trigger pressure away from dieing, you don't know what fear and terror are! But for the grace of God, I should be dead today and some thug gang banger would be on the streets today. Maybe your street. I would hope not. The 2 that had me in their sights were just let out of jail that morning for ....MURDER.... Yes, bail is a wonderful thing.
No, I don't live near where your wonderfull little tookie was ...I don't have to. I have zero tollerance for such cowards no matter where they live. And no, I don't have a serial killer living next door. I do have a child molester right down the road, so to protect my 2 daughters, I keep a loaded gun nearby.
No, being convicted of a crime does not mean you did it, but if you can't prove your innocence in 20 some odd years, that tells me you did it.
I hope that violence never touches you or any member of your family so you can continue to live in ignorance.

I'd rather live in ignorance than to live the rest of my days in fear. What kind of life is that...it isn't! If it is your time to go then there's nothing you can do about it. A loaded gun can't even prevent that from happening. So before you start to judge people saying that they're living in ignorance, you need to examine yourself and your situation before you begin to address mine. Only God can judge me.

Chill, if you refuse to accept what happens I will call that ignorance. I don't live in fear. I live in the real world. People are bad. Some people have forfeited the right to live among law abiding people. I have examined my situation and have come to this conclusion, I will use a gun if it comes down to it, as a last resort. If any other criminal tries to harm my family or take my stuff, I will use it. Yes, only God can judge, I never said I could. But I will be ready to carry out God's judgement if He gives me the nod.
Yes, when it is your time, nothing can stop your departure from this earth. But, if you are not ready to defend what is near and dear to you, your time will be here quicker.

With your criminal loving attitude, you might want to reexamine your situation and find you a nice plot of land. You will need it sooner rather than later, I am afraid.


Point out to me, in anyone of my statements where I said I loved criminal activity or behavior. Please don't put words in my mouth, I didn't do that to you. That's all I really need to say. You have your opinion, I have mine....so be it. But don't try to force your opinions on someone else as if it is truth. You know nothing about me besides what you have read in very few statements. The same way you judge me is the same way you will too be judge. I'm quite sure you will not be given the nod to cast judgement when you can't even recognize your own issues.

:no: :no: :no: I thought this was a forum for Scion and other auto enthusists, not a soapbox for gays, anti-death penality nuts, Bush bashers, and other hate mongering left wing psycos and anti-American misfits. I think some of ya'll would feel more at home at:
http://moveon.org/ ,
http://www.aclu.org/, or
http://www.queernationusa.org/index.html

:nope: :blah: Flame away yankers! :lalala:

at the same time this is the offtopic-cafe, where anyone can talk about anything not related to the cars.

While this is the "off-topic cafe" I tend to be in alignment with the other old codger here - Smokey.
I don't give a rat's a$$ if you're ___, love/hate Bush or think "tookie" was rehabilitated.

If you're ___ - fine. Friends of mine are, but I don't need to know all about it.

I'm Republican, but not too thrilled with GWB for things like immigration.

Tookie - glad he's worm food now. Four people - at least four people - are dead now because of him. They got no mercy. Eff 'em.

Scott

Point out to me, in anyone of my statements where I said I loved criminal activity or behavior. Please don't put words in my mouth, I didn't do that to you. That's all I really need to say. You have your opinion, I have mine....so be it. But don't try to force your opinions on someone else as if it is truth. You know nothing about me besides what you have read in very few statements. The same way you judge me is the same way you will too be judge. I'm quite sure you will not be given the nod to cast judgement when you can't even recognize your own issues.


I have not judged you. I have taken your statements and formed an opinion of you. My opinion is that you want to keep all criminals alive no matter how many innocent people they have killed. If I mis-read you, then I apologize.
I haven't tried force my opinion on anyone. I have only stated what has happened to me and why feel the way I feel. I have said that I hope you never have to face death from someone with no reguard to your life.

I know what my issues are. My biggest issue is that I don't approve of people killing others for no reason other than they want drug money. You seem fine by that. I just can't see your reasoning. :eyebrow:

You have totally mis-read me. I never stated if I felt he did the crime and deserved the punishment, or the opposite. I don't understand where your opinion of me wanting to keep all criminals alive no matter how many innocent people they have killed even came from. Maybe if you had taken the time to ask me how I felt about people killing others for no reason, you would have formulated an accurate opinion about me based on my response. Never once did I say I agreed with anything Tookie was accused of doing. That's not my place to make the decision whether he did or not. The only comment I made to you is that it seemed strange to me that you said you felt safer now that he's dead, when there are probably worse people living much closer to you. That's it, I never went into if he killed the people or not, or any of the other things you have accused me of being or believing.

I'm totally fine with someone having different viewpoints than I do, and I have enough respect for people to listen to their side, and express mine. I have nothing against you, trust me, the same way you formed an opinion of me, I could do for you based on your statements. They were not all positive statements I might add. But even in that I still respect you as a person and I respect your opinions when they are grounded and founded on something more than a whim. All I'm saying is that before your quick to make a decision about me on something I haven't even said myself. Take the time to ask me first and see where I stand on the issuse. Then from there form your opinion of me.

P.S. I accept your apology.

If I have, then again, let me apologize....<smacks head>

I am guilty of many things and obviously I have mis-read.
I love you as much as a straight man can, brother to brother, wheather we agree or not.

Thanks for being a man about the situation. I have nothing but respect for you.

:no: :no: :no: I thought this was a forum for Scion and other auto enthusists, not a soapbox for gays, anti-death penality nuts, Bush bashers, and other hate mongering left wing psycos and anti-American misfits. I think some of ya'll would feel more at home at:
http://moveon.org/ ,
http://www.aclu.org/, or
http://www.queernationusa.org/index.html

:nope: :blah: Flame away yankers! :lalala:

tell me this was tongue in cheek. i gotta believe it was tongue in cheek because if not, you epitomize the whole "red state/blue state" thing.

btw, you shouldn't be "flamed" for your opinion; nor should anyone else....but if i were of a "flamer" ilk, (and i'm not), i'd just say this....

the floor has heard from the representative from critter's corner, tennessee.

Hmmm. Sounds like you ARE a flamer...

Scott

Hmmm. Sounds like you ARE a flamer...

Scott
you're kidding, right? nope. but do believe there is room for people who don't have the same views as me.

i had to believe that he was kidding to avoid cognitive dissonance....i mean really, who believes those adjectives in this century? bush-bashers, hate mongering left wing psychos, anti-American misfits....if he was not kidding, that means there are archetypical people who "literally" believe that stuff. they see the world that way. that is scary to me.

criminy, archie bunker called, he wants his favorite chair back.

i'm clearly not an "anti-death penalty nut" (read my earlier posts)....but some freakin' acceptance of views other than one's own seems appropriate. no need to throw out the whole "if you disagree with me you hate america" card. that rhetoric doesn't serve to make me open to listen to one's argument. it kinda makes me discount them as fanatic, ill-informed and quite honestly, ignorant.

i wasn't speaking about any individuals in this post, i was illustrating my overall concern about people who believe that how they see the world is the right way to see the world.

we're all doomed.

I agree....acceptance of others views and the ability to look at a situation from anothers perspective is definitely a good tool to have.

Before you critisize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.

That way when you do critisize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes! :P

And, if you loan someone $20 and they never see you again to repay it, it was worth it. :lol:

... but do believe there is room for people who don't have the same views as me.

...there are archetypical people who "literally" believe that stuff. they see the world that way. that is scary to me....

...criminy, archie bunker called, he wants his favorite chair back.

....but some freakin' acceptance of views other than one's own seems appropriate.... it kinda makes me discount them as fanatic, ill-informed and quite honestly, ignorant.



:doh: I rest my case! :rofl: Would the gentleman from Hypocrite County, California just chill, now that he has demonstrated that liberalism is a mental disorder? :rofl: :rofl:

First of all, I think whoever moderates the Off-Topic section should get double of whatever they get for moderating. Second, this thread reminds me of why I like the sub-headline on another forum I go to... it reads:

The Lounge
Discuss anything except, Politics, Religion, or Personal Computing Platforms.


(It's very effective at minimalizing online ____ing contests like these.)

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/burr.gif


Tookie - Tried by 12, carried by 6 and toasted by 1. Then dumped over his mother land from a plane. They could have saved alot of time and money if they just pushed him out of a plane 25 years ago.

Yeah, we don't need to let other people speak their minds.... :lol:

Yeah, we don't need to let other people speak their minds.... :lol:

Of course not. That right is only reserved for...well people that don't agree with your Politics, Religion, or Personal Computing Platforms. :rofl:

Yeah, we don't need to let other people speak their minds.... :lol:

Of course not. That right is only reserved for...well people that don't agree with your Politics, Religion, or Personal Computing Platforms. :rofl:

Good idea. I don't want some twit dissin' my riced out ShuttleX!
:no: :no: :no:

Werd up to smokey...... :lol:

who the hell is tookie ??

and also, atodak i love the clip of kobe gettn slizzaped around. i think im gonna add that to mine.

who the hell is tookie ??

and also, atodak i love the clip of kobe gettn slizzaped around. i think im gonna add that to mine.

Do you live in a cave? :lalala: j/k

The dude that was executed in Cali a few weeks ago with cracked out Snoop-puppy and the con man with no church Rev Jessie saying he is a new man and should be spared.

So, we takin bets as to where that circus shows up next?

:nails: :nails: :nails: One thing's for sure....You'll know it when it happens! :rofl: :rofl:

http://collegegrovemethodist.com/images/racecard.jpg

Man, I think 2 pages got added since i started reading...

First, I'll say I am for the death penalty. I have been on a jury that gave the death penalty to a very deserving scumbag, (IMO and the 11 others on my jury - the first jury found him guilty but deadlocked on the penalty). Just because it doesn't deter EVERYONE from killing doesn't mean it isn't a deterrent to others. If anything, the 20 year lag time is what weakens it as a deterrent.

The fact that Tookie wrote children's books to try and keep kids out of gangs is great. I also think that giving him the Death Penalty rather than clemency is a much more poignant ending to the story. Live by the sword, die by the sword. teach kids that they can do the most evil deeds and get away with it by being "sorry" will have the exact opposite effect...

Every defense attorney knows all the tricks to make your client appear to be human. Doesn't make it true.

It is the will of the People of California that the Death Penalty be enforced. How does a few letters opposing it bridge that gap? The Governator was elected to carry out the will of the people and he did.

Regarding the Megan's Law stuff, I think that those kind of crimes, especially against children, should also be grounds for the Death Penalty. There is very little rehab going on there and that would solve the repeat offender issue.

I do agree with djct_watt that these kind of issues get much more attention than they deserve when compared with other losses of life. It's a hot-button issue with no chance of finding common ground just like the abortion topic...

I have a funny feeling this topic isn't going away anytime soon...

Calif. executions expected to increase

SACRAMENTO, CA, United States (UPI) -- California is preparing to carry out death sentences at a pace unseen in more than a generation.

Quadruple murderer Stanley Tookie Williams -- executed this month -- was the 12th inmate executed in California since voters reinstated capital punishment nearly three decades ago. Next year alone, four inmates could enter the execution chamber, the Sacramento Bee reported Monday.

With more than 640 inmates sentenced to execution, California has the largest death row in the nation.

The newspaper said the era of multiple executions will likely test the moral and political pulse of Californians, whose support of the death penalty is strong but is showing signs of waning.

More than 70 percent of voters approved reinstatement of the death penalty in 1978. Last year, 68 percent of California voters voiced their support of the death penalty, according to the nonpartisan Field Poll. That number, though significant, was actually down from the 83 percent of Californians who supported capital punishment in 1986, the newspaper said.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/northamerica/article_1071570.php/Calif._executions_expected_to_increase

I say we have a house cleanin!

I say we have a house cleanin!

Yup. We need the room :bow:

I just love Texas. That state knows how to let people live free in the state and no messing around on death row.

My brief stint here has me thinking that some of the "tolerate others" folks only mean that if "others" are left-wing, war haters.
If you're going to truly tolerate others - better listen to both sides of the political spectrum
As for making the lounge off-limits to politics, sex, computing platform, etc - who would come if they did???

Scott

I say we have a house cleanin!

Yup. We need the room :bow:

I just love Texas. That state knows how to let people live free in the state and no messing around on death row.

:doh: Texas isn't doin' too good protecting their borders. What ever happened to: " Tresspassers Will Be Shot On Sight" notices? :doh:

Scionic man is pure genious. I never thought of it like he put it. That was a god ending to his stories about life learned lessons. But I still hold true to the fact that he did have relatives who did no wrong and lost someone they might have loved( tookie ).

:doh: Texas isn't doin' too good protecting their borders. What ever happened to: " Tresspassers Will Be Shot On Sight" notices? :doh:

I imagine they've been torn down by either illegals crossing over or Jesse Jackson... :rofl:

Scott

I say we have a house cleanin!

Yup. We need the room :bow:

I just love Texas. That state knows how to let people live free in the state and no messing around on death row.

:doh: Texas isn't doin' too good protecting their borders. What ever happened to: " Tresspassers Will Be Shot On Sight" notices? :doh:

Yeah...there are a few bleeding hearts still there I suppose.

This country better get it's act together fast and protect our borders. It really makes me angry when I hear the the PC correct bleeding heart liberals spew the line "Our military can't protect our border. They aren't designed for that."

STFU....

Germany...border protection with East Germany.
Korea
Vietnam
etc,
etc.

That's what our constitution says our military is to do. Protect Our Borders, not everyone elses..

Scionic man is pure genious. I never thought of it like he put it. That was a god ending to his stories about life learned lessons. But I still hold true to the fact that he did have relatives who did no wrong and lost someone they might have loved( tookie ).

Thanks for the props. I would point out that the pain that Tookie's relatives feel was a result of Tookies choices/actions.

I would point out that the pain that Tookie's relatives feel was a result of Tookies choices/actions.

That's inflicted - AGAIN - by Tookie - not the jury, not the legal system, NOT the victims of his hate.

Families are ALWAYS the innocent ones that feel the pain for selfish a-holes.
Society can't take that into consideration, or nobody would be convicted - let alone put to death.

Sad all the way around. Everyone loses.

Scott

very true, for every action there is a consequence....good or bad. That's why when we make major decisions we should not only look at how they affect us, but those around us too. The choices and actions we take can result in consequences that directly spill over into the lives of those we may love.

^^^ Yes. If every man or woman thought past the 2-minutes of pleasure when they cheat on their spouses, and how much damage it WILL cause, the world would be a better place. People always think about THEMSELVES.
Every drunk that gets into a car does the same thing - not knowing if THIS will be the time he/she kills some innocent family.

Getting older gives you one thing that being young can't - that's experience and wisdom to make better choices.

The world can't live with the Tookies of the world running loose. Don't feel any sympathy for that POS or others like him.

Scott

I'm neutral for the death penalty, but I was FOR the execution.

Getting nominated for the Nobel prize is quite easy, and is done so via MANY various sources. Has anyone actually READ his "books?" They are really quite awful. The people making the big hoopla about the nominations are his legal team and celebrities.

I totally understand why people are against the death penalty, and encourage people to voice themselves. But if you really look into the evidence and FACTS about "tookie," you'll find out what a scumbag he is. I really don't like that the majority of people who support him, actually think he's some kind of "good guy." He's not. Jamie Foxx is an actor, not a lawyer, not a historian, not even a relatively educated guy. He lies about who is for a living. Actors are the worst source of information. Period.

If you're against the death penalty so be it. Just don't defend this convicted criminal and murderer. You guys all turn him into some kind of hero.

If he really were innocent, they would be bringing up reasons why he had a mistrial, or what evidence was for him. They would not bring up peace prizes, which was, in fact a political STUNT by his legal team.

And a "rehabilitated citizen" would AT LEAST apologize, which he never did. He didn't shed one ounce of remorse to any of the victims.


Whats going on through your head, yeh i believe tookie was rehabilitated but he commited the crime so he should have died for it, how much money do you make a year, Foxx is an actor which means he is a liar? please he has 2 make a living and by saying he isnt intelligent basically makes you look quite un-sophisticated. Think about it your little $40k a year to his at least 1million in a month and he hasnt gone broke in the 20 years he has been acting, thats all the smarts you need to live like you want and always have enough money to never go broke. So son here is a lesson Before you speak think about what you say. and Yes Tookie was guilty and needed to be punished for what he did but they could have granted him some leniency for his rehabilitation and the nomination for the nobel awards. But we can argue all day your wrong imright im just joking but if you want to respond PM me. CLASS DISMISSED

Would the gentleman from Hypocrite County, California just chill, now that he has demonstrated that liberalism is a mental disorder? :rofl: :rofl:

i'm not a liberal, i'm a republican. there is a difference between disagreeing and name calling. it appears with the adjectives you used to describe people who disagreed with you that you were demeaning people merely for having an opposing view. that, to me, is where the lack of respect comes into play (and turn-around is fair play).

it is not about respecting the opposing view but acklowledging the other person's right to have it. see, i can believe that your view of the world is limited, less than enlightened, short sighted and mean spirited, but i am not saying you personally are any of those things. i can respect you (the general you, not this specific instance per se) as being okay even though you believe the way you do because i understand how you came to have those views.

it was the perceived name calling i was addressing, not the bush homering.

btw, my mental illness isn't liberalism, it's dualism and to be honest, i personally don't give a rat's a about any of this. i was just drunk posting to hear myself speak.

[quote=smokeydog001]
btw, my mental illness isn't liberalism, it's dualism and to be honest, i personally don't give a rat's a about any of this. i was just drunk posting to hear myself speak.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ...