9/11 conspiracy??? [Archive]

Bluechualappa

12-15-2005, 04:05 AM

(note blue is from texas)

he's already in favor of bush....

i feel sorry for him

You can feel sorry for me all you want but you've got it all wrong. Everyone has a right to their opinion. Thats mine! If your dumb enough to think the bush administration organized something like 9/11 you need meds. People died on 9/11 and people are dying for idiots like you everyday.

you know...i dont want to make this a political battle....

but in the case of "idiots like me", was totally off topic. they are also dying for immature idiots like you as well. not too mention i've lost EIGHT of my CLOSEST FRIENDS over in Iraq, so I can freely speak about this war and everything else just as much as freely as you....so DO NOT CRITIZE MY OPINIONS EITHER

not once did i attack your opinon, i simply said you were from texas and everyone knows that is BUSH country..... read before you post nimrod

Thats just a bit biased but whatever. Like someone said before, not everyone from Texas is supportive. Clearly I am. I'm not looking to hate on you or anyone else here. I don't talk ____ on the internet(I'm just a bit more mature that that) -(And I AM NOT saying you are talking ____) We clearly have different views on this topic but there are just as many misleading statements in this video as there are in what they think the Bush ppl did. That's all I have to say...

Yoshi

12-15-2005, 04:10 AM

Not to throw a blanket on things, but I knew people who died on two of the planes and now work for one of the airlines involved. On 9/11 I was in NYC blocks from the WTC at work, and spent the nexy several months helping clients rebuild, recover and deal with the loss of collegues.

Everyone is welcome to have an opinion, but if you think those weren't real people taking normal everday flights, your either lying to yourself, or are so isolated from the reality of that day that nothing I say will matter.

The pain and fear of 9/11 still resonates through the company I work for. And the reality of the lost comrades and co-workers and family members is palpable to this day.

And lest anyone think I have some pro-Bush agenda, this has nothing to do with politics. I promise you, I lean farther to the left than most anyone you'd ever meet.

iyzmi

12-15-2005, 04:17 AM

Now I don't know what to think.. There is evidence that it's almost impossible for cell phone calls to be made at cruising altitide buy Yoshi is saying that he knew people from those flights.. hmmm

Yoshi

12-15-2005, 04:20 AM

Cell calls can be made from cruising altitude. I've done it myself on emergency relief flights. It depends on where you are.

In addition to which, the fact is that when the calls were placed the flight was not at it's typical cruising level. It was already desending.

BlkSandPrlTurbotC

12-15-2005, 04:41 AM

Blue - its cool, i took a breather for a while, went outside smoked a cig, now im good haha. sorry for that earlier :)

but if you think about this, who do you really believe? The evidence is there at the Pentagon and in Somerset, Co. I personally visited the crash site in somerset co, pa and it was very eerie.

i just think we (americans) dont know what to believe. We are so caught up in TV/MEDIA that we dont even know what's going on in the next room.

are we brainwashed? maybe, maybe not.

djct_watt

12-15-2005, 05:52 AM

Yes. . . cell towers actually transmit BETTER vertically than horizontally, as there are no obstructions for the signal. The FCC does not allow cell calls for fear of interference with flight controls, since heavy electromagnetic/radio activity interferes with electronics. . . ever had a cell phone go off near a stereo/radio?

I've made a call in a plane before (in the bathroom). Towers can tramsit well over 3 miles, and you are NOT 3 miles above the earth at altitude

surfcity40

12-15-2005, 05:57 AM

imo,....the essense of communication is intention. i question the intention of the maker of the documentary. it seems he had a preconceived notion about the "facts". given that, it is easy to see how he found "facts" that reinforce that notion. it seemed to me he was trying to prove a point. it was not "unbiased" as it were.

the truth of the events of that horrible incident exist outside of your or my beliefs about them. if you believe the gov't did it, this documentary will seem to corroborate that. if you don't, it won't. nevertheless, the truth exists outside of our perception of it and the debate is moot.

to put it another way, the truth is the truth, the same thing believed is a lie. the facts of this incident will be debated for years by people who care; heck, the "truth" of the kennedy assasination is still up in the air for some.

djct_watt

12-15-2005, 05:58 AM

Here's is the be all and end all rebuttal, you gullible gullible people. . .

http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_1253.shtml

djct_watt

12-15-2005, 06:00 AM

There is no debating the science of PHYSICS. . . two bit conspiracy junkies aren't exactly knowledgeable in such things.

This is as bad as the moon landing conspiracy, referring to the lack of dust upon take off of the lunar lander. Too bad there is no AIR in space to transmit energy.

surfcity40

12-15-2005, 06:14 AM

surfcity40

12-15-2005, 06:19 AM

djct_watt

12-15-2005, 11:35 AM

Too bad there is no AIR in space to transmit energy.

light travels through space from stars to here. light is energy. energy does not need air. but back on point, why was the starched flag waving?.....jk

science is not your bag...no big deal. i kid i kid.

Ok, negligent use of terms on my part. . . there is no AIR in space to transmit PRESSURE waves. . . light is a type of energy too, yes. . . and radio. I'm not one for being a human glossary, but I understand the concepts.

And in space, objects in motion stay in motion. So unless they neatly put the flag down without moving it, the flag will continue to move in a random pattern, and will do so infinitely, since there is no friction from air to stop it. You try moving a big startched piece of cloth from a landing craft to the ground. . . I'm sure it's going to move. And since it will continue infinitely and randomly, it will appear a LOT like waving.

Science is definitely my bag. . . in seriousness in seriousness.

djct_watt

12-15-2005, 11:41 AM

Towers can tramsit well over 3 miles, and you are NOT 3 miles above the earth at altitude

you are right about that. you are generally about 6.62 miles above the earth at altitude. altitude is about 35,000 ft and a mile is about 5,280 ft....math.

btw, who were you talking to in the bathroom?

Even 6.62 miles is more than enough distance (without physical obstruction) for a cell tower to transmit. . . and I was calling to arrange someone to pick me up. . . I didn't feel like waiting 3 hours for a ride, nor paying for a cab.

Approach/decent altitudes range from 10,000-20,000ft (I'm also into flying) and you have to consider that the cell towers are probably NOT at sea level, unless it's an under water city, or a depression in the earth.

djct_watt

12-15-2005, 11:42 AM

matt_a

12-15-2005, 11:59 AM

scrap

12-15-2005, 01:34 PM

This is unbeleivable. I did not read every post in this thread, but I get the idea. I will always be amazed at how stupid and gulible some people can be. Yes folks, all of the events of 9/11 were faked and it was all a conspiracy, we never walked on the moon (it was all filmed in a movie studio), the alien autopsy is real, and the Jewish hollocaust never happened. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm meeting Elvis and Jim Morrison for breakfast.

It's not about it being fake. I think 9/11 could have been prevented, but the bush people would rather play on a farm in the summer than pay attention to people attacking us. The bush admin needed 9/11 so they could have the right to start a war. I think chaney said we need a pearl harbor type of attack to get this country behind us. Guess what we got one, and all it did was give the goverment more power to control the people. All this is about is power oil and $$$. So they could all make $ on weapon contracts and oil deals. I watched the towers fall from my backyard really I did. I was hyped up to kill people at first but now I see what it was about.

matt_a

12-15-2005, 01:41 PM

It's not about it being fake. I think 9/11 could have been prevented, but the bush people would rather play on a farm in the summer than pay attention to people attacking us....
Do you honestly think 9/11 all came about because of Bush? Do you honestly not realize that those events were planned and set into motion waaaay before he was the president? If Clinton had gotten off his @ss and actually done something about these people when he had the chance (USS Cole ring a bell?) instead of cheating on his wife with an intern, than some of 9-11 might not have happened.

atodak

12-15-2005, 02:03 PM

yeah clinton should have been blowin lines instead of cheating on his wife which every president has done

Joehnn

12-15-2005, 02:17 PM

Matt A

Your wasting your time in this discussion. This group is the Michael Moore Fan club local #53. Don't you know they swallow any tripe put out against Bush. Bush is responsible for every thing bad in the world. If we would have only ignored the terrorist and Sadaam, they would have both just gone away.

:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

oldmanatee

12-15-2005, 02:22 PM

Again, I wish someone could tell me the answer to this simple question...

If Bush is so stupid, such a moron, how is it that he is such a criminal mastermind? How has he pulled off the greatest scam ever?
You can't say he is both. You are either a moron or a genius. What do you want us to believe he is?

matt_a

12-15-2005, 02:22 PM

yeah clinton should have been blowin lines instead of cheating on his wife which every president has doneShow me one shred of evidence that Bush has ever done either of those two things while in office (or even in the last 20 years) and we'll talk.

matt_a

12-15-2005, 02:26 PM

Stu_Gotti

12-15-2005, 02:31 PM

Wow.. interesting video.. I voted conspiracy, not on the ideas that were presented, but more about the actions taken after 9/11... I was in the Army at the time. Bush IMO has done something that all of our great great great grandchildren will not see the end of.. take my word.. it is farrrrrrr from over.

Bush was like that little kid that rattled the bee hive with a stick and then stood around and watched.. as they stung the living poop out of him!

peestandingup

12-15-2005, 02:43 PM

I have 2 questions... If it wasn't a commerical flight then how were there people in the plane? and: Is there a higher quality edition of this video somwhere to download?

Answer 1 : Those weren't regular Boeing Planes that hit the towers.

Answer 2 : It's Quicktime, they always have terrible quality. at the end of the video there are MANY links, try those. :)
Actually the video format is Flash NOT Quicktime! And the original was in WMV before Google converted it to Flash (as they do with ALL their videos), so get your sh*t straight & stop bashing Quicktime. If you wanna talk about who "always has terrible quality", look at Windows Media. Anyone who knows video knows that MPEG-4 (H.264) is supreme next-generation video quality & both HD-DVD & Blu-Ray discs are gonna use it. Quicktime has it & guess who dont? Yup, Windows Media. So, go fu*k Bill Gates in the a$$ some more why dont you.

Sanjuro

12-15-2005, 02:50 PM

Here's is the be all and end all rebuttal, you gullible gullible people. . .

http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_1253.shtml

Anybody want to refute this? Or is modern day physics a government conspiracy too?

Ummm.. not going to go point for point but you did post a conservative website link (" THE NEW AMERICAN is the source for conservative news and analysis.").. I have to question any information I get from a biased source pushing an agenda. Conservative, Liberal, Green, etc.

I think the answer is somewhere in the middle here. There is a hell of a lot we DON'T know about 9'11, and won't for many many years. I will say this, If you think the gov is not capable of misleading its people, take a long hard look at our history, and afterwards I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya. :P

oldmanatee

12-15-2005, 03:08 PM

There always has been and always will be things that the general public doesn't know. No matter who is prez. And there are things that we don't need to know. Mainly because if the general public knew it, we would screw it up.

ucyib2papi

12-15-2005, 03:20 PM

i dont claim to be smart and if u knew me u would know that buy my points r

the music for the "documentary" is handleds by some numbnuts which automatically made me wonder everything
the edited footage sure looked alot like the actual footage
the building the said were still standing after long fires were not built like the wtc, since that was an innovation of engineering. the s tower fell first becasue the steel in the middle of the building not the outside like other buildings had more weight above it bending the steel. since its built from the inside thats y it fell like an implosion.
i think ive seen numerous documentarys on the discovery channel, history channel etc and gotten alot of different views, and this one keeps looking for excuses to get their point across.

id love to post what i really want to, but i would probably be banned from this site, so i will post w/ sarcasm

i hope everyone involved w/ this conspiracy theory lives long healthy lives and never get molested anally. i love u so much and hope u enjoy delicious meals that do not resemble feces.

ps i love ny
and any other city would still be figuring out what to do

ucyib2papi

12-15-2005, 03:23 PM

oh yeah, i thought i was having breakfast w/ elvis today. that punk, double booked

oldmanatee

12-15-2005, 03:28 PM

Is E still hangin' with Howard Hughes???

pdrizzle

12-15-2005, 03:33 PM

It's funny how a topic about the official story given for 9/11 and evidence brought up to raise questions about the official story has some people bashing Bush, some people defending him while bringing up the Clinton years (which has little or nothing to do with 9/11), and partisan bickering in general. 9/11 has nothing to do with political parties. The fact is the information is out there. The government lied about things such as not knowing that terrorists would use airliners as weapons. They lied about not shooting down the PA flight. 9/11 wasn't an intelligence failure much like the Iraq war wasn't waged because of bad intelligence.

ucyib2papi

12-15-2005, 03:44 PM

finally finished watching this garbage. ill stick w/ my discovery channel and the word of mouth of my friends and family who live in ny, were downtown and had to walk across the bridge who saw what happend.

matt_a

12-15-2005, 03:46 PM

THE_DON

12-15-2005, 04:01 PM

Crazy stuff...

-THE DON

pdrizzle

12-15-2005, 04:04 PM

..... while bringing up the Clinton years (which has little or nothing to do with 9/11)
You've GOT to be kidding me! :rofl:
Bush was in office for less than 8 months when 9/11 occured. I suppose those guys all got their financing, came over here, got appartments, planned the attacks, went to flight school, and carried out the plot all within in 8 months.
The fact is, Clinton had more to do with 9-11 happening than Bush.

The current administration was handed every bit of information that the Clinton administration had about terrorist activity at home and abroad (including information about Mohamed Atta). You can't criticize a former president for not doing enough if the current president had the same information and didn't stop 9/11. They share the same head of CIA! As far as I know, Clinton didn't have the power at the time to have the nation on high alert because of a serious terror threat during the month of September (which was the case). It's not against the law to accept money, come to the US, get an apartment, and go to flight school. I'm sure if either administration could have proven that they were planning an attack, they would have been questioned at least.

Joehnn

12-15-2005, 04:12 PM

OMAC

12-15-2005, 04:17 PM

wow I just got done watching the first 2 minutes of this pile of crap. I like how the narrator can only back his statements up with blurry video and third-party quotes.

Can anyone tell me if he actually interviews anyone involved or does he just repeat video footage and narrates? (can't watch the full video now, at an airport).

And the side-by-side screens in the beginning of the movie of the airplanes could be anything. There is no proof that the 'grey' plane is the one that hit the WTC. Don't be taken in be this guy.

And finally for all you conspiracy theorists...if Bush is as evil as you say he is, and if he had the power to orchestrate the 9/11 attacks, don't you think he would have been smart enough to plant WMDs in Iraq?

Come on use your brains.

oldmanatee

12-15-2005, 04:21 PM

Sanjuro

12-15-2005, 04:30 PM

"Crap!!! I knew better than to listen to yall about putting the planting of WMD's out for bids!!!! Haliburton has that 'No Bid' contract and would have already done it!!!!!! Screw it, who wants to go blow up some levees?" :rofl:

Classic!

Stu_Gotti

12-15-2005, 05:20 PM

:lol: Def Classic

I dont really think any President has anything to do with another persons actions towards or not towards the US. That person made their own decision, they are the ones who wanted to cause harm to whom ever.. unless the President has directly said "Hey you... you suck.. what you going do about it?".. then.. you cant blame the President.

You can however, blame the President and his staff for decisions after something like 9/11 has happend. His plan for freedom in the Middle East focuses so much on oil.. only because this nation was founded and established on it... its our way of living.. and that is why we do what we do...

:tap: I ate too much at my Christmas party... let me go drop some youngsters off at the big white pool.. :lol:

oldmanatee

12-15-2005, 05:24 PM

BlkSandPrlTurbotC

12-15-2005, 05:31 PM

Stu_Gotti

12-15-2005, 05:37 PM

Exactly.. bottom line.. although I do not like W, or his pre/post war actions, everyone has to understand..

The President has a very difficult job to perform. Politics control every single solitary aspect of his daily life.. basically from the time he swore in.. til the day he dies. Neither the President or yourself can control what others (terrorist/US citizens) do to each other. Bush is not the only one responsible for everything that has happend. There are people who are responsible for certain things. When those teams become complacent (like they did)... sh!t happens. Bottom line.. its been said and I'll reinerate it.. Since the Clinton era.. the US was in its "chill out" mode... no one EVER would have thought that something like that would happen.. that is why its still being talked about now.. When stuff happens close to home.. its a whole different ballgame. Things get looked at a whole lot different when Americans get hurt.. by other Americans or UN/NATO members. Terrorist could give two sh!ts about us.. they have no remorse for what they do or who they hurt. This whole arguement is based around politics.. everyone has their own views on things and they all think this or that should have happend.. guess what.. IT DOESN'T MATTER! W is in charge of it all.. and Congress. They do what they feel is right for the majority of the US people.. If you dont agree with what has happend.. or what could have happend... VOTE!

There is more than you and I can possibly imagine to this story.. Some things are not meant for regular everyday average Joe's and Jane's to know.. me being ex-military/veteran and having almost all of my family coming from some sort of government agency.. people like me can agree.. I probally know some things that you will never know.. and usually its for the average persons good.

America is the MOST diverse country in the world. Bottom line..

YOU MANAGE IT!

If anyone on these boards think they have what it takes.. go for it.. pitch your entire political agenda to us.. and everyone on here is going to flame you in one way or another.. its life. Whats good for the goose is not always good for the gander.. etc. etc. etc.

You cant make everyone happy.. you cant protect everyone.. life in America is a political survival of the fittest.

Gotti has spoken

BlkSandPrlTurbotC

12-15-2005, 05:41 PM

oldmanatee

12-15-2005, 05:45 PM

I can't vote for Gotti... he'd put an intake on this site and void all our warranties...... :lol:

Sanjuro

12-15-2005, 05:46 PM

Stu_Gotti

12-15-2005, 05:46 PM

Stu_Gotti

12-15-2005, 05:50 PM

I can't vote for Gotti... he'd put an intake on this site and void all our warranties...... :lol:

:doh: :ttth: :tap: :come: :blah: :no: :nope: :eyebrow:

:P Sooooooooooo low :lol:

BlkSandPrlTurbotC

12-15-2005, 05:53 PM

I can't vote for Gotti... he'd put an intake on this site and void all our warranties...... :lol:

:doh: :ttth: :tap: :come: :blah: :no: :nope: :eyebrow:

:P Sooooooooooo low :lol:

Sorry Stu...gotta do it.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/daggz/hinesward2.jpg

Stu_Gotti

12-15-2005, 06:06 PM

You can however, blame the President and his staff for decisions after something like 9/11 has happend. His plan for freedom in the Middle East focuses so much on oil.. only because this nation was founded and established on it... its our way of living.. and that is why we do what we do...

What I wonder about are all the other reports that pass over that desk daily. In other words, we know about these specific reports pre-9'11, but how do we know that even MORE horrific things didn't pass over the desk that WERE acted upon? Things like this we won't know for a long time.

Intellegence.. this is a big one. I am not saying that I know it all about intellegence.. but.. although our intellegence is good.. it always has room for improvement. The other thing with intellegence.. when it comes to gorilla warfare, terrorism, or any random attack.. your intellegence is not always going to pick up the neccessary info you need to prevent.. you can only hope somehow, someone, somewhere slips up or you catch something abnormal to make an educated guess that something isn't right...

Intellegence is only good if correct and acted on accordingly. Not all intellegence is good, not all intellegence will help. The more intellegence you have, the better chance you have of making the right decision. Our country is ran by other men and women just like ourselves.. human error is bound to happen.

Our countries problem is that our agencies have not yet been able to establish a solid connection between them. Communication errors are mainly what hinder us from getting the proper intellegence to the proper people in time in order to take precautionary measures to safely diffuse a problem. Again.. human error, learning from mistakes and just flat out guessing wrong will only make you better..

IMO.. I think the security now is more tighter and on their feet more than they were pre 9/11.

Everyone can agree on one thing (aside from we all drive Scions).. It is very sh!tty that human lives have to be lost in order for change to come about. America is a bunch of spoiled and ignorant people. Look at our past.. look what this country is founded on.. look at what other countries are founded on.. our era in time will lay foundation for our future.. now wether or not that holds peace and freedom.. only time will tell. Also remember.. every single solitary great empire has fallen.. eventually.. its historic, its inevitable... the US of A.. will crumble.. maybe not in any one of our life times.. or great x10 grand childrens life times.. but.. it will happen. For now.. hold on, keep your eyes down range.. and keep your foot on the gas.. life a b!tch and she can have her way with you when she feels the need.

Gotti has spoken...

again.

scrap

12-15-2005, 06:11 PM

matt you're right Bush had nothing to do with the planning, he's to stupid for that. He's just a puppet any way. His admin. is just a bunch of liers plan and simple. The info was on his desk but they didn't care, they needed this war aganinst terror so they can make $$$$ thats it. You republicans from Penn. don't no ____ matt you are 39 from penn. and Probably never left your state before lol..........

Stu nice words, you got it!!

Joehnn

12-15-2005, 06:15 PM

Kilo6_one

12-15-2005, 06:28 PM

outside of pure enterainment value, their is always some conspiracy theory's floating around after something of national tradgedy. what annoys me is the grainyness and the "mtv" style it was done, using the hip hop soundtrack makes it loose crediablity, i also think irregardless of who did this, there is nothing you or I can do to change what happened, but it got me thinking ..........but it was more entertainment then anything for me......

Stu_Gotti

12-15-2005, 06:29 PM

matt you're right Bush had nothing to do with the planning, he's to stupid for that. He's just a puppet any way. His admin. is just a bunch of liers plan and simple.

Bush had everything to do with the planning.. that is where you are incorrect my friend. The President has people who basically oversee different proccesses and different departments.. only because he cant do it all himself. In the end, every single aspect of any decision is brought before the President. The President has advisors that tell him what is politically correct and what could be better or worse for you and I.

The info was on his desk but they didn't care, they needed this war aganinst terror so they can make $$$$ thats it.

I think you should do a little bit of looking around. This war has actually produced more debt for this country than profit. There are several ways of looking at this administrations actions and drawing different conclusions as to why we took action. As I stated before.. Oil has a bunch to do with politics in the world today.. simply because almost everything is run off of it.. and its a great economic barganing tool. I guess you can compare it to whoever has the most checkers at the end of the game wins. Everyone knows that the Middle East is the core terrorist location. A great deal of countries in the Middle East envy and hate americans. IMO.. Bush and crew basically acted on feelings and greed more than intellegence and logic. Going to war in Afghan and Iraq was going to happen eventually.. if not now.. maybe 5 years or 20 years from now. As you sit here and read this.. somewhere overseas right now.. soldiers.. soldiers like I was.. soldiers like my buddies from the 3rd Infantry Division are over there protecting our freedom. To say that Bush didn't care.. regardless if you were talking about whatever crossed his desk is obserd and ignorant. Bush did act in a manner that I dont approve of and he did rush into things that he should not have done... but.. bottom line ladies and gents.. its done... the damage has been done and there is no going back on what has been done. There are soldiers over there right now dying because of all the crap that has happend. IMO.. pulling out would be smart.. but at the same time.. some soldiers feel as though.. pulling out would basically make all the people who died.. soldiers that died on vein. Bush has the right idea of spreading democracy to the Middle East.. but he did not have the proper planning.. and now we are losing more lives than ever.

Keep it coming ladies and gents... I love debating.. :)

matt_a

12-15-2005, 06:29 PM

Stu_Gotti

12-15-2005, 06:33 PM

Stu,

We have been on opposite sides of some issues, but at least you logically argue your position (in contrast to many others). Keep it up.

Joe

P.S. I've been lurking on the Gotti Saga thread and I hope everything works out for you. I know where you are at, I owned a first year production Fiero once. :doh:

Thanks Joenn.. I agree.. I see a bunch of non thought out reasoning.. its more than meets the eye.. just everyone doesn't quite see as much as others.. I have seen quite a bit and have my opinions.. just like er'body else. :)

Hell.. I sure hope I get my car back soon... I got some ice to go mess around in :lol: I guess this whole thing with my car is pretty much over with.. unless I can come up with some solid case for fight it.. I will just take it.. gotta relax though.. so it doesn't hurt as much :rofl:

Stu_Gotti

12-15-2005, 06:36 PM

You republicans from Penn. don't no poop matt you are 39 from penn. and Probably never left your state before lol..........
Oh goodie...a personal attack. I must have struck a nerve. Let's see, I was born in Wyoming, I've lived in IL, GA, and SC prior to PA. I've also done a good bit of traveling. But hey, I'm sure you're right.
Oh, BTW...learn how to spell.

:lalala:

Ignorance.. Scrap.. I have seen many positive and educated dicussions with Matt being in all of them. You should not sterotype someone because of their state they live in and their age, and how they voice their opinions.. personal attacks usually stem from someone that is uneducated and are at their last grips with fighting a battle that they shouldn't have opened their mouth in..

:eyebrow: Its a debate.. not a personal thrashing!

scrap

12-15-2005, 07:22 PM

You republicans from Penn. don't no poop matt you are 39 from penn. and Probably never left your state before lol..........
Oh goodie...a personal attack. I must have struck a nerve. Let's see, I was born in Wyoming, I've lived in IL, GA, and SC prior to PA. I've also done a good bit of traveling. But hey, I'm sure you're right.
Oh, BTW...learn how to spell.

I think I struck a nerve. LOL!! Sorry my spelling is bad but I am busy at work right now.

How do you spell HICK?

Stu it was for profit. The middle class and poor pay for wars, with taxes and there childrens lifes. While the defense industry make tons of profits.

Stu_Gotti

12-15-2005, 07:31 PM

Stu it was for profit. The middle class and poor pay for wars, with taxes and there childrens lifes. While the defense industry make tons of profits.

Yes.. we pay taxes. But.. in the end... we expend natural resources, money, time, people, etc. If you take a look at the debt that has increased since the start of things.. thats all it has done.. increased. Brother... that is how the economy works.. sorry to slap some reality on you. We all pay to have freedom.. rebel if you want.. but.. you are serverly out numbered my friend.

matt_a

12-15-2005, 07:48 PM

Sorry my spelling is bad but I am busy at work right now.
What? No way.....a liberal with a job?! :D
Just pickin'. Believe me, I'm the last person who should criticize anyone's spelling. :P

djct_watt

12-15-2005, 09:00 PM

djct_watt

12-15-2005, 09:08 PM

I find it sickening that all these people think 9/11 never really happened, and that the planes were empty

All those people die, and you all live in your fantasy land where they didn't really die. Hate on Bush all you want. . . hate on the war, hate Republicans. . . I don't care. But stick to the issues. . . dreaming up a scheme that 9/11 was cooked up by the government, and that nobody died is such an unfathomable thought, I honestly feel sadenned by humanity.

You people criticize people for being stupid. . . for voting for Bush. And I can somewhat see the argument. But this is just too far.

[edited by djCT_watt]

djct_watt

12-15-2005, 09:14 PM

Kilo6_one

12-15-2005, 09:22 PM

LMAO...................your so right, if this thing was something of any valididty i would have seen it on discovery or something, but looks like it should be on lifetime.

oldmanatee

12-15-2005, 09:31 PM

Or Cartoon Network.

Bluechualappa

12-15-2005, 10:09 PM

Or Cartoon Network.
:rofl: :rofl: :clap: :rofl: :rofl:

ucyib2papi

12-15-2005, 11:26 PM

glad someone is smarter than me and got answers i like

Biznox

12-16-2005, 01:14 AM

djct_watt

12-16-2005, 01:14 AM

It has nothing to do with intelligence, it's about not being DUPED by people more stupid than you are. Most of you have more brains than the drug abusing pot smoker who created that movie.

All it takes is 30 seconds of google searching, and 5 minutes of dilligent reading. Most of America is not that stupid. . . but we fail to question the sources of our information, and verify the accuracy of their claims. It really is ignorance.

djct_watt

12-16-2005, 01:29 AM

I'm not convinced.

I despise Bush and everything the neo-con cabal stands for, but I don't think 9/11 was planned or allowed to happen by anyone consciously.

There will always be conspiracy theories surrounding any event of this magnitude.

I think the most important thing is for us to keep our eyes on the ball and pay attention to what allowed this to happen in the first place and pay VERY close attention to what the government says and does now and what they are up to.

There is enough shady stuff happening right under our noses that CAN be proven, to focus on, without worrying about crazy conspiracies! These guys are outing CIA agents to punish critics of the administration. They are STILL trying to call the action in Iraq "the central front of the war on terror" even though we had exactly ZERO problems with terrorists in Iraq before the invasion.

Lets keep our eyes on the ball here guys. We've seen what can happen when we don't....

I agree with you 99%, except for the "not convinced" part. I'm not sure what you meant there.

Yes, there is a ton of shady stuff happening. . . but they aren't conspiracies either. . . they are corrupt acts of government and/or stupid stupid negligent decisions. Add to that list self-motivated actions. . . like money. But that's not conspiracy. . . that's corruption. . . at least in the common definition of the term.

djct_watt

12-16-2005, 01:31 AM

Keep in mind Clinton couldn't keep a little oral gratification a secret. . . big plots are even harder to cover up, with as many potential leaks that they can have.

Magnus213

12-16-2005, 01:53 AM

That video raises some interesting thoughts, though I agree that the video quality is too crappy to make anything out (at least online). As the narrator was like, "see?" me: No. "one more time?" No. "Didn't catch it?" Catch what?

Anyway. I hate arguing about politics. It's obvious that this video is biased. It's obvious that all sources of information are biased that are widely available. Only if I had been been there that day, with a full knowledge of the underside of Boeing aircraft, and seen the proposed inconsistency with my own eyes, would I know a fact. Otherwise, I remain stuck between two arguments, realizing that my political views are hugely influenced by my parents and not really any of my own research, stuck here knowing that I'm hearing lies from both sides.

I can't vote in the poll.

XB_BOY_2005

12-16-2005, 02:21 AM

I voted for bush, and this video showed some good points, i think its true to some extent, but i do not agree with some of the points. like the "missle on the plane" probably not, but the explosives already wired in the building, maybe. i thought it strange that the building fell so quickly already, since the steel is supposed to withstand 2,000 degrees for several hours, and the jet fuel burned at max 1,377 degrees for 50 mins.

XB_BOY_2005

12-16-2005, 03:00 AM

BlkSandPrlTurbotC

12-16-2005, 04:22 AM

Hey XB BOY thanks for the Avatar :)

I freakkkkin love it

T BAG! hahaa

Poison

12-16-2005, 09:40 AM

If you trully believe...that 2-4 Arabs took over a plane with box cutter knives your trully a complete moron.

2 words

SHADOW GOVERNMENT

Theirs more to it then meets the eye, do you really think the Government that we see is th real thing!?!?!? NO!! Its simply a puppet Government,.

DENY IGNORANCE!! IDIOTS!!!

XB_BOY_2005

12-16-2005, 10:38 AM

Reign_Man

12-16-2005, 03:39 PM

4 hours?!?! wtf man thats to much

ucyib2papi

12-16-2005, 06:57 PM

let me get this straight 70% of the people think that 9/11 was a consipracy.
are there any trees not being held at the moment?
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b202/ucyib2papi/800px-Wtc-2004-memorial.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b202/ucyib2papi/Middle_Finger_WTC.jpg
:come:

Poison

12-16-2005, 08:05 PM

i just finished watching a 4 hour documentry at http://prisonplanet.com/ and for those of you that didnt believe that video because of "3rd party quotes" this video dives much deeper than just the attacks, but motives of the goverment to establish a New world order. i highly recommend watching this video.

You know about the New World Order?....

If you guys don't know anything about the NWO, I highly recommend you look into, not only is it scary but sheesh... Its quite crazy.

djct_watt

12-17-2005, 12:20 AM

Here are some link that debunk the video:
http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/refute.htm
http://www.rotten.com/library/conspiracy/september_11_conspiracy_theories
http://www.911-strike.com/debunking.htm

And not all of these are biased, and have more links within the links.

But nobody wants to read what smart people write, they'd rather see a little flash movie by some retard with no education.
Actually one of the links you gave http://www.911-strike.com/debunking.htm supports the video, is debunks the theory that 19 arabs hijacked 4 planes.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame shame shame me can't shame again.

Ooops. . . Cut and paste the wrong link. I have over a dozen sites bookmarked. I did a lot of research on this.

And for the record, the last link wasn't supposed to be there. The flying involved during 9-11 wasn't exactly precision. . . you can tell by the bucking of the wings. The angle at which they hit, the were lucky they didn't miss, they were correcting pretty card. . . I don't remember which flight it was, but it was the plane that came in at an angle.

Trust me, it's not hard to hit a building, and flight sims are plenty good for getting practice.

djct_watt

12-17-2005, 12:26 AM

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

That was the one that I meant to put

Biznox

12-17-2005, 01:20 AM

If you trully believe...that 2-4 Arabs took over a plane with box cutter knives your trully a complete moron

SHADOW GOVERNMENT

Theirs more to it then meets the eye, do you really think the Government that we see is th real thing!?!?!? NO!! Its simply a puppet Government,.

DENY IGNORANCE!! IDIOTS!!!

Do you even know what the Shadow Government is? Or do you just like to use that term because it sounds cool and insidious?

Maybe you should look it up, son. :eyebrow:

It was not 2-4 Arabs either. There were 5 on each plane, except for the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, that plane had 4. It's not difficult to beleive that happened at all. Up until now, hijackers NEVER did anything like this. They usually force the pilot to land in some armpit of a country, make demands, and then release the hostages, MAYBE shooting one or two if needed. No one had any reason to try and fight these guys. They were organized and had a plan and followed through with it.

It's not hard to understand. It's people like you who blindly embrace every conspiracy theory that comes along that make the real conspiracies so hard to discern. You're barking up the wrong tree. There are PLENTY of shady things surrounding the 9/11 events waiting to be discussed. Like why did the Feds allow the entire bin Laden family who was in the US to leave immediately following 9/11 instead of questioning them first? Just to name one...

Biznox

12-17-2005, 01:24 AM

ucyib2papi

12-17-2005, 01:30 AM

so... its not wrestling....
dang it, just when i thought i knew something

NHGrafx

12-17-2005, 02:48 AM

This video was obviously made by the ignorant for the ignorant, plain and simple. The only people who would beleive something like this are either one of those wacky conspiracy theorists or someone who is highly uneducated or quite simply a gullable idiot who will beleive anything they see or hear. The video footage was obviously doctored by them because I just looked at the video tape copy of the news I made live as it happened and none of the anomolies they showed on this "documentary" were in the actual news broadcast that was on every tv station in the country and probably the world. And the footage I taped from the news is the exact footage they have, but mine isnt poorly doctored up like theirs which is why the video quality on this "documentary" is low because it makes it easier to hide their poor video doctoring. I am a graphic designer/artist and have also done many video editing and beleive me, I can tell if somethings been doctored or not. I know all the techniques and tricks there are to do what they did, and they did it pretty poorly. That black and white picture of the underside of the 767 they claim was the one that crashed into the building was just a poorly doctored up picture of one of the new KC-767A refueling tankers.

The only thing this so called "documentary" is designed to do is satisfy the minds of the ignornant people out there who wanted to hear exactly what this thing says.

Its really quite sad that there are people out there who would make garbage like this and whats even more sad is the large amount of people who buy into this crap. These people probably also beleived that story in the National Inquirer about 15 years ago about the sea monster that swallowed up the sailboat on one of the great lakes and the cheesy photo they had of it too.

And for the record, I am not a Bush supporter, I used to be but after these last couple of years, my faith in him and his administration has completely gone down the drain.

hotbox05

12-17-2005, 04:35 AM

it happened.
it wasnt planned by the us
the us govt could have done better but oh well it isn't bush's fault. get over it!!!

Poison

12-17-2005, 06:13 AM

BlkSandPrlTurbotC

12-17-2005, 06:53 AM

Biznox

12-17-2005, 07:23 PM

Magnus213

12-17-2005, 11:14 PM

BlkSandPrlTurbotC

12-17-2005, 11:16 PM

Biznox

12-18-2005, 04:03 AM

BlkSandPrlTurbotC

12-18-2005, 04:06 AM

Yellow_Sub

12-19-2005, 07:34 PM

Yellow_Sub

12-19-2005, 07:51 PM

or the fact that GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS said that the temp of the burning planes was around 500C yet titanium's melting point is at 1638C. so what happened to the engines at the pentagon? and what was in this box? the box looks about 9 ft tall. how big were the engines on a boeing?
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c25/sennadesillva/box.jpg

Stu_Gotti

12-19-2005, 07:56 PM

... lalala... :) Oh boy.. you all are still arguing this thing? :lol: ...

matt_a

12-19-2005, 08:10 PM

I am terrified by the fact that there are enough mouth-breathing neandrathal morons in this country that a high functioning retard like Bush could get elected not only once, but TWICE.

It really is scary when you think about it. I'm not making a joke here. I'm talking about genuine fear.
What's really sad is that you've bought what the liberal media has been feeding you...hook, line, and sinker. You want to know why you're shocked that he won? It's because the media only ever showed you the libeal opinion all throughout the debates. You've been duped my friend. To watch televison during that entire process, one would have thought that absolutely nobody was going to vote for Bush, yet more than 62 million people did. I can only imagine how shocked the liberals must have been when he won by more than 3 million votes. The fact is, all the noise we were hearing on TV was simply a very vocal minority with the media on their side. The majority of the country knew better.

oldmanatee

12-19-2005, 08:16 PM

I'm very suprised that you liberals feel it is ok to call people morons and retards andother degrading terms, but if a conservative used aterm like that, yall would scream how 'mean spirited' they were.

I just hope that the next guy yall elect can walk on water, because if Jesus Himself was a republican, you'd find fault with Him as well...

HeathenBrewing

12-19-2005, 08:57 PM

I just found this "off topic" forum.

Disclaimer: I have not read all the pages in this thread.

I have helped produce 2 DVD's on the events sorrounding 9/11 and researched the "attack" for almost 5 years now.

To put it bluntly, we all have been lied to. But the place to focus in on WTC 7 and it comparison to WTC 1 and 2. 7 was never hit by any debris and had a very small fire compared to 1 and 2, yet it collapsed in the same way. Larry Silverstein (owner of the WTC complex) has ADMITTED ON FILM (DVD: CNN America remembers) that he ordered the buildings "pulled", which is an industry term for "blow up".

Anyone searching for the TRUTH of that day need to push aside Pentagon strikes, temps, etc. and focus in on WTC 7...that is where the goverments entire case came crumbling down.

matt_a

12-19-2005, 09:13 PM

HeathenBrewing

12-19-2005, 09:22 PM

So it's all a pack of lies. The events of 9/11 (as we know them) are all a lie and it's a HUGE conspiracy that a bunch of people on an internet chat forum all know about. Yet not one of the major news networks (liberal or conservative) has reported this. Gee...I wonder why. Ya think maybe because it's all a load of crap!???

There is no profit in truth, and the media knows this. The media is not here to inform, but to control.

Don't believe what you read on an internet forum, watch REAL news footage yourself. These are not crackpot companies putting out DVD's, but "legitimate" companies like CNN. Look for "9/11 in Memorium" and "CNN: America Remembers". Both can be rented through Netflix (?) or Blockbuster. Judge the evidence with your own eyes before coming to a conclusion, otherwise you will just end up looking ignorant.

hotbox05

12-19-2005, 09:22 PM

Yellow_Sub

12-19-2005, 09:22 PM

ScionDad

12-19-2005, 09:31 PM

:rofl:

HeathenBrewing

12-19-2005, 09:37 PM

:rofl:

With those type of "facts", you should apply to FOX news....

hotbox05

12-19-2005, 09:40 PM

yeah the media sure controls me. NOT. get your head out of your clouded arse....

HeathenBrewing

12-19-2005, 09:43 PM

yeah the media sure controls me. NOT. get your head out of your clouded arse....

Maybe they dont control YOU personally, but they do wield their influence over the public.

I dont think that can be denied intelligently. But we are getting off subject....

hotbox05

12-19-2005, 09:46 PM

if some news outlet were to have a "turth" special. whether not it was the truth or not , or if it was beleivable or not their ratings would be insane. and then i'm sure one side or the other would love to show something of a different view other than just love or hatred of the president.

oldmanatee

12-19-2005, 09:47 PM

Who needs a joke forum... some of you people really crack me up!!!

If the smartest President ever in the history of man can't keep a blow j*b secret, how, in the name of all that is good, can a short bus reject keep a conspiracy this size quiet?
Too many haters would have been screaming at the top of their lungs and have proof about the cover up by noon, Sept 12.

ScionDad

12-19-2005, 09:54 PM

:rofl:

With those type of "facts", you should apply to FOX news....

I guess I can play along for a moment.

First thing is...there is much better quality video available to see than this guy and his "Bob's all purpose video editing software" from nerds R us.com. Try viewing some of the "actual" feed. There is no question. Unless Hollywood was in on it too. You know Bush and how Hollywood would do anything for him.

Second, in order for this conspiracy to take place, the hundreds if not thousands of people involved to make it happen..... would be impossible to maintain silence. Hell, we can't keep quite about anything secret in this country. Even if it kills us. :lalala:

Third. Yes, you can place cellular calls at 30,000 feet. I've been designing and building narrow and broadband systems since the 80's. If anyone cares to discuss the polarization and propagation of RF radiation ...let me know.

Fourth. I personally know people in NY and DC that witnessed these events first hand. My neighbor's best friend died in tower 1. Real planes, real people, real deaths, real bad.

Fifth, no credible organization will show these because....they don't want to loose their credibility. That one's kind of obvious.

ScionDad

12-19-2005, 09:58 PM

oldmanatee

12-19-2005, 10:02 PM

Hey, I'd love to stay and chat, but O'Rieley is on line one with my marching orders....

ScionDad

12-19-2005, 10:20 PM

Hey, I'd love to stay and chat, but O'Rieley is on line one with my marching orders....

:shock: Hey, he just put me on hold....must be talkin with you.

:rofl:

oldmanatee

12-19-2005, 10:23 PM

We just need to conference call.. it would save time.

Unless..... do you think he might pit us against each other?????

HeathenBrewing

12-19-2005, 10:49 PM

First thing is...there is much better quality video available to see than this guy and his "Bob's all purpose video editing software" from nerds R us.com. Try viewing some of the "actual" feed. There is no question. Unless Hollywood was in on it too. You know Bush and how Hollywood would do anything for him..
Aye....I have not read the entire thread yet so I will have to go along with you on that one until I have time to watch it.

Second, in order for this conspiracy to take place, the hundreds if not thousands of people involved to make it happen..... would be impossible to maintain silence. Hell, we can't keep quite about anything secret in this country. Even if it kills us. :lalala: .
And that is why so much has come out...because you cnat keep a secret like this. Black boxes were found in the debris of WTC 1 and 2. Have you ever heard the mainstrem media mention that? And the testimony of firefighters putting out the fires that there were multiple explosions?

Third. Yes, you can place cellular calls at 30,000 feet. I've been designing and building narrow and broadband systems since the 80's. If anyone cares to discuss the polarization and propagation of RF radiation ...let me know..
There is a lot of disinformation out there....I will go back to the point I am coming from: WTC 7 proves demolition charges were used. I am NOT defending missile theories, ray-guns or flying saucers. That is where the entire 9/11 investigation went wrong...focusing in on the silly while forgeting about the obvious...WTC7.

Fourth. I personally know people in NY and DC that witnessed these events first hand. My neighbor's best friend died in tower 1. Real planes, real people, real deaths, real bad..
I in no way question the deaths of innocent people, I am ONLY questioning the official version of the events because there are so many holes in the story it looks like swiss cheese.

Fifth, no credible organization will show these because....they don't want to loose their credibility. That one's kind of obvious.

How come they won't even try to explain WTC 7? By not investigating what happened and simply parroting what the gov't said, they show there true colors...not to inform and investigate, but to conform and ignore the FACTS involving the collapse of WTC 1,2 and 7.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I may, I would like to say this....fire did NOT cause the collapse of WTC 7.

Cardington fire tests prove that "A steel building survived fires in experiments with extreme temperatures beyond the range possible with jet fuel".

The Madrid fire in 2005 burnt for 24 hours looking like a torch and never collapsed.

Fire Enginering Magazine said "The investigation of the WTC "is a half-baked farce." This magazine has been around for over 100 years. They also stated "All of the important evidence from the disaster was destroyed, illegally, and before the investigation was even concluded, some before it began! "

Building 7 at the WTC, 47 floors, steel, and constructed differently from the twin towers, fell at 5:30 but it was never hit by an airplane, had no significant fire! The fires were not long enough (only 1-2 hours) to harm the steel. Yet days later, there were "hot spots" in the building that still exceeded the maximum temperature possible from jet fuel - but not from explosives.

FrankenScion

12-19-2005, 11:15 PM

ScionDad

12-20-2005, 12:13 AM

We just need to conference call.. it would save time.

Unless..... do you think he might pit us against each other?????

I heard some clicking noise on the phone. I hung up. :nails:

ScionDad

12-20-2005, 12:27 AM

The WTC towers were not your typical steel frame building. They were built with a steel exoskeleton and used heavy barjoists to support the concrete floors. The towers were built this way to make the maximum use of floor space, without the normal reenforcing inner steel found on most buildings, especially around elevator shafts. Walk into a large gymnasium or Walmart Super Center and look at the roof supporting system found there. This is the same type supporting structure that was used in the WTC. Normally, steel buildings are designed to withstand a 2 hour burn through time before the structure begins to weaken. The WTC towers did stand for almost two hours after initial impact. Add the fact that the supporting clips which hold the bar joists in place were designed to hold the weight of the bar joists, as well as the concrete flooring and anything palced in the building. After impact, you have the additonal weight of the aircraft remains, as well as any water from the sprinkler system. This will change the load bearing hold time for the heavy clips holding the bar joists. When we have to bend steel on a job site (tower erection work), we use heat and pressure. On that day, you had heat present from anything on those floors which were burning, and from the smoke plume, there was a lot of stuff burning. You also have additional weight (pressure) placed on the joists and clips. Eventually, once the clips on a floor can no longer take the heat and pressure, teh will bend causing the bar joists and concrete floor they support to fall to the next floor. From that added weight, with heat still present, you soon have a chain reaction. With a steel exoskeleton, you end up with a implosion effect, which is why the towers crumbled down the way they did

FrankenScion

12-20-2005, 12:34 AM

:ponder:

oldmanatee

12-20-2005, 01:20 AM

So, what was so important in WT 7 that it needed to be destroyed?? Was that where the new world order was kept?

In a controlled enviornment, a building will burn one way, in an uncontrolled environment, no one can say what reaction different substances will have? WT 7 was heavily damaged from the collapse of the twin towers....do you think the engineers has even considered that scenario when they designed it?

Now, it is fact that the fireproofing in the towers was improperly applied, it was even missing in some areas, so, we all know that there are never any corners cut in big building projects and union steelworkers never do shoddy work.....So, you ask us to believe some "Blair Witch Project" docomentary, do me the same courtesy and look at another side.
And please, pray tell, what would be gained from killing 3000 people, destroying all those buildings and crippling the economy?

Biznox

12-20-2005, 03:45 AM

I don't see why or how someone would want to go out of their way to destroy WTC7. I don't find it hard to beleive that there is more to the picture than what we are being told, but the first rule of a good conspiracy theory is it should at least be somewhat plausible. Explosive charges in WTC7 makes no sense IMO.

hotbox05

12-20-2005, 05:19 AM

explosive charges in any wtc makes no sense let alone the only one not directly hit. it honestly makes no sense. good cath biznox

matt_a

12-20-2005, 12:17 PM

ok think about this matt if your were an executive at cnn or abc or fox would u go out on a limb and show a documentary like this. hell no u wouldn't!! ya know why? not because "it's a load of crap" but because the network would lose companies using their station to advertise, have a ton of hate mail and threats from people , like you, who are too ignorant to even sit down and give these videos a chanch and you know the government would be on anyones butt who would dare show such a thing. thats why no network has "reported" the facts presented in these videos. so now you can stop wondering why.Ya know what I find really funny about all of this? Anytime there is a "government conspiracy theory" floating around, all of a sudden it's as if our government is one big, united front and they're keeping this huge secret. Hello?! Have you seen our government? They don't agree on anything and they couldn't keep a secret to save their lives. You say this is all a big Republican cover-up, yet not one democrat is aware of it, or making an issue out of it? Sure. The democrats in the senate have been out for Bush's head from day one. Do you really think they would just ignore something like this if there was a shred of truth to it? Your closets must be full of infomercial junk.

atodak

12-20-2005, 12:43 PM

^^There are some Repubs out for Bush's head as well.

oldmanatee

12-20-2005, 12:47 PM

^^There are some Repubs out for Bush's head as well.
And that just strengthens matt's argument....
In a day when most everyone is too lazy to work for a living, don't you think people with just a shred of PROVEABLE evidence would be tripping over their own feet to get someone to buy it?

Stu_Gotti

12-20-2005, 12:54 PM

:lol: This thread kills me.. :)

Sanjuro

12-20-2005, 01:34 PM

GUYS, GUYS, GUYS! Lets just wait and see what Oliver Stone has to say about all this http://imdb.com/title/tt0469641/

I'm sure he will straighten this whole thing out for us. :silly:

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 03:25 PM

.....which is why the towers crumbled down the way they did
That truss theory has long ago been proven false.

A few sentences in the FEMA report [Chapter 2] add to the 'mystery' of the collapse:

"The large quantity of jet fuel carried by each aircraft ignited upon impact into each building. A significant portion of this fuel was consumed immediately in the ensuing fireballs. The remaining fuel is believed either to have flowed down through the buildings or to have burned off within a few minutes of the aircraft impact. The heat produced by this burning jet fuel does not by itself appear to have been sufficient to initiate the structural collapses. However, as the burning jet fuel spread across several floors of the buildings, it ignited much of the buildings' contents, causing simultaneous fires across several floors of both buildings."

But I digress as your statement has nothing to do with WTC7.

Focusing in on WTC 7 for a moment, how would you explain the pools of molten steel found in the basement of the building when it was not struck by any aircrafts or significant debris? Try to imagine that the mechanical energy of the collapse could "melt and pool" any steel. Forget it! Bending steel with horrendous energy is one thing, melting it is another. Av-gas, even under optimum conditions, cannot melt steel because it is unable to reach that temperature. Steel melts at approximately 2,900 degrees (F). Thermite, either passive or dynamic, reaches approximately 5,400 degrees (F). That's almost twice the needed heat. All the pooled jet fuel in the world won't burn hot enough to produce molten steel - under any conditions.

But back to your statement, the imagery of the WTC does NOT reveal the aluminum siding of the WTC towers deforming. Thus, given the constant exposure - over time - to any escaping heat, it is difficult to imagine the fires being so hot as to cause either catastrophic or abrupt damage to the WTC vertical support structure. None of the images of the outer steel structure show the otherwise expected red-hot glow. All images show the outer shell mechanically destroyed, versus collapsing from thermal cause. Watch some live footage and you will see a majority of the smoke coming from 1 and 2 to be black, which indicates an oxygen starved fire. Yet another fact proving that jet fuel alone could NOT have melted steel.

Additionally, if the fires were hot enough to melt steel (an impossibility), how can you explain the blonde women (with long, undamaged hair and clean white pants) standing in the middle of the impact area in the North Tower ? This is not trick photography as the DVD's I previously mentioned contain archive footage from CNN and the Naudet brothers showing the women.

Here is a link to that photo, although Im sure some will say it is photshopped, it is not as the same picture exsist on the DVD's:

http://home.comcast.net/~skydrifter/collapse.htm
(scroll mid-way down)

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 03:26 PM

Food for thought:

Here are some interesting FACTS

Photos show people walking around in the hole in the North Tower "where 10,000 gallons of jet fuel were supposedly burning. The women (p. 27) seem to (sic) looking down to the ground" (the NIST "Response" pdf, p. 62, also shows a similar photo of the same blond woman with light-colored slacks looking over the edge of the 94th floor).
* By the time the South Tower was hit, most of the North Tower’s flames had already vanished, burning for only 16 minutes.
* The fire did not grow over time, probably because it quickly ran out of fuel and was suffocating rather than the sprinkler system dousing the fires.
* FDNY fire fighters remain under a gag order (Rodriguezvs-1.Bush.pdf, p. 10) to not discuss the explosions they heard, felt and saw. FAA personnel are also under a 9/11 gag order.
* Even the 9/11 Commission (Kean-Zelikow) Report acknowledges that "none of the [fire] chiefs present believed that a total collapse of either tower was possible" (Ch. 9, p. 302). It shocked everyone that day, amateur and professional alike, although some firefighters realized that so-called secondary explosive devices were a risk.

1. Fire had never before caused steel-frame buildings to collapse except for the three buildings on 9/11, nor has fire collapsed any steel high rise since 9/11.
2. The fires, especially in the South Tower and WTC-7, were small.
3. WTC-7 was unharmed by an airplane and had only minor fires on the seventh and twelfth floors of this 47-story steel building yet it collapsed in less than 10 seconds.
4. WTC-5 and WTC-6 had raging fires but did not collapse despite much thinner steel beams (pp. 68–9).
5. In a PBS documentary, Larry Silverstein, the WTC lease-holder, recalled talking to the fire department commander on 9/11 about WTC-7 and said, "…maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it," slang for demolish it.
6. FEMA, given the uninviting task of explaining the collapse of Building 7 with mention of demolition verboten admitted that the best it could come up with had "only a low probability of occurrence."
7. It’s difficult if not impossible for hydrocarbon fires like those fed by jet fuel (kerosene) to raise the temperature of steel close to melting.

1. Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less).
2. Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.
3. Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone ("…workers can’t even find concrete. ‘It’s all dust,’ [the official] said").
4. Dust exploded horizontally for a couple hundred feet, as did debris, at the beginning of each tower’s collapse.
5. Collapses were total, leaving none of the massive core columns sticking up hundreds of feet into the air.
6. Salvage experts were amazed at how small the debris stacks were.
7. The steel beams and columns came down in sections under 30 feet long and had no signs of "softening"; there was little left but shorn sections of steel and a few bits of concrete.
8. Photos and videos of the collapses all show "demolition waves," meaning "confluent rows of small explosions" along floors (blast sequences).
9. According to many witnesses, explosions occurred within the buildings.
10. Each collapse had detectable seismic vibrations suggestive of underground explosions, similar to the 2.3 earthquake magnitude from a demolition like the Seattle Kingdome (p. 108).
11. Each collapse produced molten steel identical to that generated by explosives, resulting in "hot spots" that persisted for months (the two hottest spots at WTC-2 and WTC-7 were approximately 1,350o F five days after being continuously flooded with water, a temperature high enough to melt aluminum

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 03:29 PM

I hope I do not come across as attacking anyone, as that is not my intention. This is not a Dems vs. Repubs issue either. This is about Truth, pure and simple.

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 03:31 PM

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 03:36 PM

Now, it is fact that the fireproofing in the towers was improperly applied, it was even missing in some areas, so, we all know that there are never any corners cut in big building projects and union steelworkers never do shoddy work.....So, you ask us to believe some "Blair Witch Project" docomentary, do me the same courtesy and look at another side.
And please, pray tell, what would be gained from killing 3000 people, destroying all those buildings and crippling the economy?

It matters not if the frame was fireproofed or not, as it is impossible for jet fuel to melt steel.

As far as a "Blair Witch Project" documentary, are you saying you think CNN is a witch? Until you actually see the videos, I would wacth your comments as they come across as uninformed.

I dont wish to specualte as to WHY this was done as it clouds facts regarding the collapse of the buildings with theory.

atodak

12-20-2005, 03:37 PM

Wow...intresting stuff guys.....Whats with the gag orders?

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 03:38 PM

Explosive charges in WTC7 makes no sense IMO.

But it makes so much more sense than the theory the gov't is putting out there:
1. Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less).
2. Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.
3. Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone ("…workers can’t even find concrete. ‘It’s all dust,’ [the official] said").
4. Dust exploded horizontally for a couple hundred feet, as did debris, at the beginning of each tower’s collapse.
5. Collapses were total, leaving none of the massive core columns sticking up hundreds of feet into the air.
6. Salvage experts were amazed at how small the debris stacks were.
7. The steel beams and columns came down in sections under 30 feet long and had no signs of "softening"; there was little left but shorn sections of steel and a few bits of concrete.
8. Photos and videos of the collapses all show "demolition waves," meaning "confluent rows of small explosions" along floors (blast sequences).
9. According to many witnesses, explosions occurred within the buildings.
10. Each collapse had detectable seismic vibrations suggestive of underground explosions, similar to the 2.3 earthquake magnitude from a demolition like the Seattle Kingdome (p. 108).
11. Each collapse produced molten steel identical to that generated by explosives, resulting in "hot spots" that persisted for months (the two hottest spots at WTC-2 and WTC-7 were approximately 1,350o F five days after being continuously flooded with water, a temperature high enough to melt aluminum

Sanjuro

12-20-2005, 03:41 PM

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 03:42 PM

Wow...intresting stuff guys.....Whats with the gag orders?

My point to all of this is that there are HUNDREDS of unanswered questions, and I feel that is is every law-abiding citizens DUTY and OBLIGATION to find the Truth so 3000+ innocent deaths are not in vain.

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 03:46 PM

Maybe this has been covered.. but here's a question. If the WTC were taken down using explosives, wouldn't that leave a residue that could be tested for? Theres a lot of debris that was just lying around afterwards.

The scrap metal was sold overseas before it could be examined. Very few pieces of scrap were kept (from memory, I believe it was under 5%).

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Archives&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=133237&KEYWORD=

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Destruction_of_Evidence_from_Ground_Zero_at_the_World_Trade_Center

turbochargedcobra2001

12-20-2005, 03:55 PM

oldmanatee

12-20-2005, 03:57 PM

Sanjuro

12-20-2005, 03:58 PM

ScionDad

12-20-2005, 04:10 PM

I would imagine the gag orders are so uninformed people don't go out spreading crap about things they know nothing about.. Not all NYfiremen are structural engineers, didn't you know?
But, I was earlier told to wacth my comments as they come across as uninformed.

Since I do not have time to chase the wild goose, I bid this thread a fond farewell.

Too late oldmanatee, the NSA already seen you typing and calling our president a short bus rider. :nails:

NSA, if you guys are watching....me and oldmanatee think you guys are just swell. Nothin but love for ya. :love:

:relief: Do you think they bought it?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 04:20 PM

Sanjuro

12-20-2005, 04:22 PM

WTF is wrong with you people who believe 9/11 was a set up by our government.........if you really believe that you are not only f*** stupid but even worst LIBERAL BASTARDS.....................is Ossama and Saddam the greates in your opionion if Bush isnt............even though I dont think mr bush is doing the greates job i will stick by our president for god sake be a good citizen or leave this great country.........

Yikes, I dont believe all this stuff, but there are holes in the story that need filling with real answers. Either from the govt or a true investigation.

To question something is to live in a democratic society. What you are asking is something akin to Germany in the early 40s. Especially the 'you're with us or against us' mentality. Calling people "stupid" for questioning something? "Be a good citizen"? A hundred years ago, you would have been called stupid for believing the use of a mold could cure infection. 50 years ago, you would have been called stupid to announce that the govt was deliberately infecting Black men with syphilis, or injected unknowing men women and children with radioactive material
to study the effects.

So should we all be good citizens and not question authority? If everyone who questioned the official word left, it would cease to be a democracy.

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 04:26 PM

The scrap metal was sold overseas before it could be examined. Very few pieces of scrap were kept (from memory, I believe it was under 5%).

Okay to allow that to happen is just stupid no matter what you believe occured. Just from a safety investigation standpoint alone. I guess you could do whatever you wanted in the days and months following. The media sure wasn't going to tread those waters.. heck, people have a tough enough time treading subjective waters with 9/11 even now apparently.

This is what my aim is....to get people to THINK about these things THEMSELVES. It is easier to simply turn on the tube and go along with what is being sold, but it is the sign of a higher mind to EXAMINE, CHALLANGE and TEST to see if what is being fed to us MAKES SENSE.

To destroy evidence of the event that led to the largest loss of American life on American soil (Im NOT an expert in history, so again, I go from memory) is a CRIME, pure and simple.

OPINION: You will always encounter resistance when you challange the beliefs of an individual (see religion for example) because people are afraid. Afraid to EXAMINE their lives and the life around them in a detached way.

turbochargedcobra2001

12-20-2005, 04:31 PM

WTF is wrong with you people who believe 9/11 was a set up by our government.........if you really believe that you are not only f*** stupid but even worst LIBERAL BASTARDS.....................is Ossama and Saddam the greates in your opionion if Bush isnt............even though I dont think mr bush is doing the greates job i will stick by our president for god sake be a good citizen or leave this great country.........

Once again, this is not a Dem vs. Rep issue....it is a matter of Truth and Justice, two principals this country was founded on.

I AM being a good citizen by questioning my gov't, and am 10 times as Patriotic as sone who simply tows the line because it is "popular" and "accepted".

People all over the world are coming to our country for opportunities and a chance at a better life...however the people who were born here dont think this country is all that great ( F****n) Liberal scum why then dont you leave this country if it so so corrupt stop talking and just leave........I am sick of all the liberals trash talking our country.....what are your opinions on the slaughters of saddam I dont here you talking about that or how in parts of the world people are either rich or poor no other classes of people that is why they decide o come to our country .........it seems liberals do not understand reality...............................again one more time LIBERALS SUCK.........

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 04:36 PM

People all over the world are coming to our country for opportunities and a chance at a better life...however the people who were born here dont think this country is all that great ( F****n) Liberal scum why then dont you leave this country if it so so corrupt stop talking and just leave........I am sick of all the liberals trash talking our country.....what are your opinions on the slaughters of saddam I dont here you talking about that or how in parts of the world people are either rich or poor no other classes of people that is why they decide o come to our country .........it seems liberals do not understand reality...............................again one more time LIBERALS SUCK.........

:yawn:

This is not a political issue no matter how much you want it to be.

I am different from you because I do not believe the Truth is something to fear. It may be scary or uneasy, but without Truth we have NOTHING.

I will try not to respond to off topic comments anymore and instead will focus in on the FACTS of the case.

atodak

12-20-2005, 04:40 PM

So basically as a law abiding citizen, I am supposed to close my eyes open wide and eat whatever the gov't is feeding me? I think I'm getting it now. :nope:

turbochargedcobra2001

12-20-2005, 04:42 PM

Sanjuro

12-20-2005, 04:44 PM

[
People all over the world are coming to our country for opportunities and a chance at a better life...however the people who were born here dont think this country is all that great ( F****n) Liberal scum why then dont you leave this country if it so so corrupt stop talking and just leave........I am sick of all the liberals trash talking our country.....what are your opinions on the slaughters of saddam I dont here you talking about that or how in parts of the world people are either rich or poor no other classes of people that is why they decide o come to our country .........it seems liberals do not understand reality...............................again one more time LIBERALS SUCK.........

I didn't know Rush drove a Scion! :silly:

Im not a "liberal' by the way, but I disagree with you. How would you like to label me? I'll give you a minute to decide. Oh. and how many other countries have you spent time in incidentally?

atodak

12-20-2005, 04:48 PM

hey turbo, no one is blaming bush on 911 so take a GIANT chill pill

turbochargedcobra2001

12-20-2005, 04:49 PM

three...........however I do watch the History channel :rofl: again why bash the country your living in do you have facts.................or just conjecture........facts that can be proven beyond any doubt is what will turn the tables.............. OH and to answer your question on the labeling If you believe our government had anything to do with this 9/11 you are crazy and a LIBERAL SCUM............ :rofl:

Sanjuro

12-20-2005, 04:54 PM

turbochargedcobra2001

12-20-2005, 04:55 PM

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/portraits.Par.0030.PortraitImageFile.gif

atodak

12-20-2005, 04:55 PM

I'm not saying the gov't had wrong doin in the attacks. I am just saying I will NOT believe EVERYTHING they tell me. and I'm not liberal scum.

Sanjuro

12-20-2005, 05:02 PM

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/portraits.Par.0030.PortraitImageFile.gif

:rofl: Well, you've got a sense of humor, so I can't hate ya.

ScionDad

12-20-2005, 05:04 PM

atodak

12-20-2005, 05:04 PM

http://www.myfruityimage.com/uploads/ef14e01632.jpg (http://www.myfruityimage.com/)

Sanjuro

12-20-2005, 05:13 PM

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 05:18 PM

FACT in the case :blah: ....................The towers are down thousands of people dead planes hijacked what more do you need.....oh i'm sorry you do not believe that terroist did this bad deed however LIBERALS would rather believe that MR Bush our president orchastated this dastardly deed.....

You keep coming back with OPINION but absolutly NO FACT.

FACT: The 9/11 "Omission" Report raises more questions than it answers:

The final report released by the 9/11 Commission contradicts itself in the very first chapter, repeatedly, and strains credulity beyond a reasonable limit in a number of places. Lets start with Chapter 1...

In chapter 1, there is a discussion of NORAD’s mission to defend the airspace of North America. The report states that in the immediate post-Cold War era:

NORAD perceived the dominant threat to be from cruise missiles. Other threats were identified during the late 1990s, including terrorists’ use of aircraft as weapons. Exercises were conducted to counter this threat, but they were not based on actual intelligence. In most instances, the main concern was the use of such aircraft to deliver weapons of mass destruction. [p. 17, emphasis added]

This statement shows the threat of planes being used as weapons was known to NORAD for a long time. But later in the same chapter, the report states:

The defense of U.S. airspace on 9/11 was not conducted in accord with preexisting training and protocols. It was improvised by civilians who had never handled a hijacked aircraft that attempted to disappear, and by a military unprepared for the transformation of commercial aircraft into weapons of mass destruction. [p. 31, emphasis added]

This must be what Chairman Kean has called the “ failure of imagination.” So we are asked to accept that while NORAD was well aware of the possibility of hijacked aircraft being used as weapons, it somehow couldn’t imagine commercial aircraft being hijacked and used as weapons? This seems highly unlikely, particularly when one considers the environment in which NORAD found itself after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

At the conclusion of the Cold War NORAD was threatened with severe budget cuts. But as the Commission report indicates, members of the air defense community made “an effort to preserve its mission” by advocating “the importance of air sovereignty against emerging “asymmetric threats” to the United States” including “drug smuggling, ‘non-state and state-sponsored terrorists’ and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missile technology.” [1] In this environment of creative attempts to preserve their mission, how likely is it that NORAD would have failed to consider the possibility of civilian aircraft being hijacked and turned into missiles if it would have strengthened its case for a continuing commitment to wide-spectrum air sovereignty?

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 05:27 PM

FACTS regarding the Towers:

--The towers fell straight down through themselves maintaining radial symmetry,.

--The towers' tops mushroomed into vast clouds of pulverized concrete and shattered steel.

--The towers came down suddenly and completely, at a rate only slightly slower than free fall in a vacuum. The flat top of the North Tower's rubble cloud revealed in these photos show the rubble falling at the same speed inside and outside the former building's profile, an impossibility unless demolition were removing the building's structure ahead of the falling rubble.

--The explosions of the towers were characterized by intense blast waves that shattered windows in buildings 400 feet away.

--Eyewitnesses reported explosions before and at the outset of the collapses.

ScionDad

12-20-2005, 05:27 PM

That's the beauty of this GREAT country. You can question the government without dying for what you say.

Others already died for us to have that right. Others are currently fighting for us to keep that right. Back these men and women regardless of how they got there.

If anyone thinks for one moment Islam would not like to control the whole planet...I suggest you all read more about the Qu'ran and what it "teaches" it's followers. By their own numbers, they estimate Islam to have 1 billion followers. They say 10% of them are "extreme". I say the CAIR numbers are low...but I'll give them their 10%. Folks, 100 million Muslim nuts want to impose Islam on the world.

This is Pinkey and the Brain on steroids.

I have to disagree about the Qu'ran statement though. Like the Bible it can be interpreted in a thousand different ways.

:no: That mentality is why Islam gets a pass as they continue to grow. This link gives you everything you need to know about Islam from it's beginning.

http://www.lamblion.com/New08.php

<Snip>

The Intolerant and Militant Nature of Islam
One of the most controversial issues regarding Islam concerns whether or not it is a militant religion. Muslims in the West argue it is peace-loving. Westerners who have experienced it in the Muslim world argue it is inherently in_tolerant and militant.

The Koran itself preaches intolerance toward other religions. Sura 5 contains the following command: “Take not Jews and Christians for friends . . . He among you who takes them for friends is one of them . . . Choose not for friends such of those who received the Scripture before you [Jews and Christians] . . But keep your duty to Allah” (verses 51, 55, 57). Extreme intolerance is commanded in Sura 5:33 — “[For those who do not submit to Allah] their punishment is . . . execution or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet, from the opposite sides, or exile from the land.”

The Koran also expresses an intolerant attitude toward any person who decides to reject the Islamic faith or convert to another religion. Such persons are to be executed (Sura 9:12). In the Hadith (the oral tradition of Muhammad’s sayings) it says “Whoever changes his religion, kill him” (Hadith 9:57). These commands are practiced in all Islamic Fundamentalist countries today.

With regard to militancy, the Koran not only condones it, it commands it:

Fighting is prescribed for you, and [some of] you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not (Sura 2:216).

Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war (Sura 9:5).

Fight in the way of Allah . . . and slay them [the unbelievers] wherever you find them and drive them out . . . and fight them until . . . religion is for Allah (Sura 2:190-193).

Muhammad is quoted in the Hadith as saying, “The sword is the key of heaven and hell. A drop of blood in the cause of Allah — a night spent in arms [war] — is of more avail than two months of fasting and prayer. Whosoever falls in battle, his sins are forgiven, and at the day of judgment, his limbs shall be supplied by the wings of angels and cherubim.”12

Regarding the Christian Crusades, they were an aberration in Christian history based upon perverted Catholic doctrine and not upon any biblical injunction. In contrast, the intolerance and violence that have characterized Islam throughout its history are firmly rooted in the Koran.

What a contrast all the ghastly commands of Muhammad are to the loving words of Jesus who told Christians:

“Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:44).

“Whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Matthew 5:39).

“Do not judge, lest you be judged” (Matthew 7:1).

“However you want people to treat you, so treat them” (Mat_thew 7:12).

“You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:39).

“This is my commandment that you love one another” (John 15:12, 17).

“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13).

And what a contrast it is between the admonition of Muhammad to conquer for Allah with the sword and Jesus’ exhortation to go forth in peace and appeal to people’s hearts through the preaching of the Gospel, relying on the persuasive power of God’s Holy Spirit.

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 05:32 PM

WTC 7:

This question would appear to be the greatest in engineering history. In over 100 years of experience with steel frame buildings, fires have never caused the collapse of a single one, even though many were ravaged by severe fires. Indeed, fires have never caused the total collapse of any permanent steel structure.

What was done to answer this most important question? The only official body that admits to having investigated the curious collapse of Building 7 is FEMA's Building Performance Assessment Team (BPAT), which blamed fires for the collapse but admitted to being clueless about how fires caused the collapse.

People who have seen buildings implode in controlled demolitions are unlikely to be as challenged as FEMA's team in understanding the cause of Building 7's collapse. They will notice, upon watching the videos, that Building 7's collapse showed all of the essential features of a controlled demolition.

Despite having the appearance of a controlled demolition, is it possible that Building 7 could have been destroyed by some combination of damage from tower debris, fuel tank explosions, and fires? Let's consider the possible scenarios.

The evidence does not support the idea that Building 7 was damaged by fallout from the tower collapses, nor that there were diesel fuel tank explosions. Fires were observed in Building 7 prior to its collapse, but they were isolated in small parts of the building, and were puny by comparison to other building fires. Let's imagine, contrary to the evidence, that debris from the tower collapses damaged Building 7's structure, that diesel fuel tanks exploded, and that incredibly intense fires raged through large parts of the building. Could such events have caused the building to collapse? Not in the manner observed. The reason is that simultaneous and symmetric damage is needed to produce a collapse with the precise symmetry of the vertical fall of building 7. This building had 58 perimeter columns and 25 core columns. In order to cause the building to sink into its footprint all of the core columns and all of the perimeter columns would have to be broken in the same split-second.
Any debris from the towers impacting Building 7 would have hit its south side, and any columns damaged by it would almost certainly be perimeter columns on its south side. Any fuel tank explosion would only be able to damage nearby structure. The rapid fall-off of blast pressures with distance from the source would preclude any such event from breaking all of the columns in the building.
Building 7 was about 5 times as tall as it was deep.
(Furthermore the very idea of a tank of diesel fuel exploding taxes the imagination, since diesel fuel does not even begin to boil below 320 degrees F. 1 ) Fires have never been known to damage steel columns in highrise buildings, but if they could, the damage would be produced gradually and would be localized to the areas where the fire was the most intense.

No combination of debris damage, fuel-tank explosions, and fires could inflict the kind of simultaneous damage to all the building's columns required to make the building implode. The precision of such damage required to bring Building 7 down into its footprint was especially great given the ratio of its height to its width and depth. Any asymmetry in the extent and timing of the damage would cause such a building to topple.

Sanjuro

12-20-2005, 05:58 PM

SCIONDAD,

Not from what I have seen. On the contrary, I think it is this kind of misinformation and refusal to understand other's beliefs that has helped to cause some of the problems we now face. On both sides.

Anyone can pull out passages and use them for their arguments...
I.E. One could argue that Chrisitianity preaches intolerance:

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman." Chronicles 15:13 "

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first hand putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." Deuteronomy 13:6-9"

Sounds pretty hateful to me.

Nuff said.

ScionDad

12-20-2005, 06:26 PM

atodak

12-20-2005, 06:29 PM

comeon guys back on the topic

ScionDad

12-20-2005, 06:35 PM

Yellow_Sub

12-20-2005, 06:49 PM

i'll get this back on topic. it wasn't 19 muslims that did it either! :P but seriously it wasn't!!!

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 06:56 PM

comeon guys back on the topic

This is on topic. It wasn't 19 crazy Christians that flew planes into our buildings. It was Muslims dying for their Allah to strike a blow against the evil west....

Now that sounds like the real conspiracy theory to me.

If they were "fanatical" Muslims, why were some drinking, eating pork chops and cavorting with lap dancers just before the 'attacks"?

How did Hani Hanjour, a pilot who could barely fly a Cessna, handle a Boeing 757?

Why did all 19 names not appear on the passenger list 2 days after the hijacker list was released?

Why do none of the names appear on the passenger lists UA and AA gave to CNN?

Why did the FBI ignore Bin Laden's family, who left the United States without further investigation?

What happened to Ayub Ali Khan and Mohammed Jaweed Azmath, who have been in jail since September 2001, because of possession of box cutters on a train? Who gave the tip to arrest them?

Who hired Zacarias Massoui to learn how to fly passenger jets in the United States?

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 06:59 PM

Dbl Post

ScionDad

12-20-2005, 07:00 PM

i'll get this back on topic. it wasn't 19 muslims that did it either! :P but seriously it wasn't!!!

Nope....all Muslims. Here is a CNN Piece:
The tape, which initially aired on the Arabic-language news network Al Jazeera television, shows a man identified as Saeed Alghamdi.

"America is the enemy that every Muslim should fight," the man said in the video. Alghamdi was one of the hijackers of United Airlines Flight 93 that crashed in a Pennsylvania field after passengers overpowered them in order to avoid hitting a fourth target.

His tape is said to have been recorded nine months before the attack.

"You will be turned into pieces because of the mujahedeen," he said. "And I tell you that we are preparing something for you. God will punish you in a big way. And we promise the United States of America that we will stop you, that we will hurt you -- and we will make sure that you don't have any peace."

Two years after the attacks on New York and the Pentagon, "Muslims worldwide will again be watching replays of the collapse of the Twin Towers, praying to Allah … to grant those magnificent 19 Paradise," says the group, Al-Muhajiroun, on its English-language

HeathenBrewing

12-20-2005, 07:02 PM

Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?

By Steven E. Jones

Department of Physics and Astronomy

Brigham Young University

Provo, UT 84604

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Sanjuro

12-20-2005, 08:08 PM

Friek

12-20-2005, 09:00 PM

I knew a lot fo that stuff... but damn that is a nice compilation.

ScionDad

12-20-2005, 09:43 PM

Try moving into the New Testament of Jesus Christ. Then show me these hateful verses. Those are the old testaments "before" the savior came and completely changed the eye for and eye approach to life.

If what you say about Islam is true then I can take passages from the New testiment and draw the following conclusions

Mark
7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Jesus wants us to kill disobediant children as layed down in the Old Testiment?

Tsk, tsk. First, the death means no eternal life. Second, he is speaking about Moses...the old testament and laws. He came to save us from laws he knows we can't keep perfect.

Exodus
21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

Obviously slavery is A-Ok with christians

For the Jews it was. Jesus is Jewish. Yet he came for others not of his flock.
Mathew
19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life

Christians have no family values. Obviously Jesus wants me to abandon my family for him in exchange for heaven.

This is in reference to spiritual gifts. If your spiritual gifts require you to forsake your family, then so be it in Christs name. This is in line with a wife saying "No way are you going anywhere for Christs work...you listen to me mister". Nope, not how it is. No need to sacrifice one for the other...but if forced to make a choice.........

Ephesians
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body

Obviously Christians dont believe women have liberties.

tsk, tsk. Another one liner. 2 heads on a person is a freak....is it not? Thus, Apostle Paul is outlining who is in charge to make final decisions in a home. What you left out is the husband should love his wife as Christ loves the church, even as he gave his life up for her (the church). Men have this format to lay their life down for their wife....yet wives don't have this format.

Mark
13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Heaven has an experation date.?

2000 years later...his words still are here and nations were built on them. In fact, the greatest nation in the history of mankind was built around the word of God. As for an expiration date? I suppose so unless you know otherwise.

Sounds rediculous doesn't it? Anything can be twisted to fit someones motives. Putting things in the proper context is whats important. You cant broad stroke all Muslims based on the radicals, just as I can broad stroke all Christians for their radicals. No they didnt fly planes into buildings, but they have bombed abortion clinics. Oh yeah, and if all Christians only follow the new testiment, why is "eye for an eye approach to life" always quoted as a defense of executions?

Atodak is right. This is off topic, and the last I will say about it.

(My replies are bold italics above)

Chsristians don't use the eye for an eye. Jews maybe....not Christians that know anything about scripture

A man breaks into your home and steals your coat, shirt, pants, shoes, hat and leaves. Once gone, the thief robs a bank wearing the clothes he stole from you. The police come to your door and arrest you for robbing the bank. You say obviously it was not you. The police say....it looked like you, your hat, your shirt, coat, shoes....Nope it was you! You respond....It may have LOOKED like me on the outside...but on the inside it was not me. They may have LOOKED like Christians....BUT

As for Capital Punishment and Christian standpoint.....

Where we find most of our problems with the two sides of capital punishment is that really both sides hold a truth of God. God's law of justice for the taking of a life demands that life be taken; yet, God's spiritual law of mercy and forgiveness grants that a murderer can be forgiven and restored. How can we reconcile this? We must understand that God instituted civil authorities to maintain order in the earth. God uses them to restrain evil and they should be obeyed for this purpose. In the New Testament we see that even Jesus surrendered to the governing authorities because He was submitted to God.

John 19:11: "Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above..."

Romans 13 (RSV)
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

From these verses we see that governments can elect to practice capital punishment, the harshest form of punishment

duston831

12-20-2005, 10:12 PM

Chsristians don't use the eye for an eye. Jews maybe....not Christians that know anything about scripture

A man breaks into your home and steals your coat, shirt, pants, shoes, hat and leaves. Once gone, the thief robs a bank wearing the clothes he stole from you. The police come to your door and arrest you for robbing the bank. You say obviously it was not you. The police say....it looked like you, your hat, your shirt, coat, shoes....Nope it was you! You respond....It may have LOOKED like me on the outside...but on the inside it was not me. They may have LOOKED like Christians....BUT

As for Capital Punishment and Christian standpoint.....

Where we find most of our problems with the two sides of capital punishment is that really both sides hold a truth of God. God's law of justice for the taking of a life demands that life be taken; yet, God's spiritual law of mercy and forgiveness grants that a murderer can be forgiven and restored. How can we reconcile this? We must understand that God instituted civil authorities to maintain order in the earth. God uses them to restrain evil and they should be obeyed for this purpose. In the New Testament we see that even Jesus surrendered to the governing authorities because He was submitted to God.

John 19:11: "Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above..."

Romans 13 (RSV)
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

From these verses we see that governments can elect to practice capital punishment, the harshest form of punishment

First off, there is no way you can speak for all Christians, or all of any group of a religion because not all of them believe in the same thing. As far as quoting scripture, you can ask a true or false question, and find scripture that justifies both answers. Very contradicting. As for what you wrote above, what about the commandment thou shall not kill? It is very simple and to the point, thou shall not kill. Yet in many other places people should be put to death. You can almost live any type of lifestyle you want, and quote certain parts of scripture to provide justification for it. Its not "God's word", the book didnt fall out of the sky, it was written by us.

to the topic...... no way its a consipiracy

FrankenScion

12-20-2005, 10:16 PM

Awesome thread. :clap:

There is a lot of interesting information here, but I'm going to have say that Heathen definitely seems to be winning the debate.

ScionDad

12-20-2005, 10:59 PM

Poison

12-20-2005, 11:27 PM

*Edited

FrankenScion

12-20-2005, 11:31 PM

Insulting people is not a very good way to sway them.

And your link doesn't work.

Evern if you take out the "url" on the end of the link it just downloads a 9 second nothing.

Poison

12-20-2005, 11:39 PM

Insulting people is not a very good way to sway them.

And your link doesn't work.

Evern if you take out the "url" on the end of the link it just downloads a 9 second nothing.

It was a mirror Image of the File, I Guess the server is no longer supporting it or something, sorry.

matt_a

12-20-2005, 11:45 PM

Poison

12-20-2005, 11:49 PM

matt_a

12-20-2005, 11:57 PM

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how this can be a government conspiracy, when our government doesn't get along. If there was a shred of fact to this, the democrats would be all over it. Explain that, and I'll listen to the rest.

By Government they mean, BUSH,Cheney, Directors of the NSA,FBI,CIA...ect.Okay. So explain to me how it is that Bush, Cheney, and these other people did this, and we all know about it, but somehow it has gone undetected by the democrats who would jump at any chance to bring Bush down.
Oh, BTW...you do realize that if this was Bush, he planned and executed it in less than 7 months. That's all the longer he was in office when it happened.

Nick06tC

12-21-2005, 12:01 AM

In my eyes it not a conspiracy. And I agree with the person who mentioned something about, If you think its a conspiracy its because Bush planned it all. And there conspiracy people think bush is an Fing moron. But how many Morons could possibly put togethor a plan like this with out it being leaked out or having 100% evidence implicating him?

You cannot call bush a moron and also accuse him of ochestrating an attack like 9/11.

Its either one or the other and i have yet to see one of bush's critics call him a genious.

(I am in in the military, I saw the Pentagon weeks after the attack. A PLANE HIT IT. PEOPLE DIED.)

Biznox

12-21-2005, 01:19 AM

Nick06tC

12-21-2005, 01:35 AM

to many people ignore history when its facts dont support their argument

Biznox

12-21-2005, 01:43 AM

matt_a

12-21-2005, 12:04 PM

That said, I don't think Franciso Pizzaro and Columbus and the Crusaders were good Christians. People who do those types of things shouldn't be used to judge the merit of an entire religion perhaps. Just like Islam should not be judged by the acts of a few desperate people, who unlike the Crusaders and Conquistadors, ACTUALLY do have some legitimate greviances.
Well said. I agree 100%. It is not Islam that is to blame for the actions of a few extremeists <-sp? There will always be people who do really stupid things "In the name of" their religion, but if you look closely, you'll see that their religion doesn't teach that. Same with Christians. Those responsible for the crusades were not following the the teachings of Jesus. Neither are the wing-nuts who bomb clinics. Unfortunately, if someone wants a reason to turn their back on God, they'll point to those people as a reason.
*Back on topic* Is anyone ready to explain to me how, if 9/11 is a huge conspiracy, the republicans were able to keep it from the democratic senators....but we all know about it?

ScionDad

12-21-2005, 02:25 PM

comeon guys back on the topic

This is on topic. It wasn't 19 crazy Christians that flew planes into our buildings. It was Muslims dying for their Allah to strike a blow against the evil west. The WTC buildings represent the West of the World.

Big picture guys....big picture.

Here's some big picture for you:

Try doing a body count throughout history.

Muslims vs. Christians

Whom do you think has murdered more people in the name of religion?

Put down your bible for a second and pick up a history book.

Look at history objectively. Look at the Crusades and the Inquisition and the conquistadors in the New World. More murder, rape, assimilation and destruction of native culture has happened under the guise of Christianity than any other religion in history.

That said, I don't think Franciso Pizzaro and Columbus and the Crusaders were good Christians. People who do those types of things shouldn't be used to judge the merit of an entire religion perhaps. Just like Islam should not be judged by the acts of a few desperate people, who unlike the Crusaders and Conquistadors, ACTUALLY do have some legitimate greviances.

Minds are like parachutes, they function best when OPEN.

Again you apply crazy people who used the NAME of religion, but had no truth in scripture to justify what they were doing. Islam has their book the Qu'ran that justifies their actions. New Testament does NOT. Also, the Crusades were in response to Islam slaughering earlier....they took their land back. It will also be the same now.

How many conflicts are taking place in the world today and how many have Islam involved. It has nothing to do with religious intolorance....it has EVERYTHING to do with intolorance to a religion the is slaughtering innocent people across the world to take control of local governments and countries.

All of those who survived Muhammad's initial 7th century slaughter took up the sword after his death, as directed by the Koran, and devoted themselves to advancing Islam through military might. The resulting spread of the religion was phenomenal. Within a century, Islamic forces had conquered Saudi Arabia, the entire Middle East, Central Asia, and large parts of India. The armies raged through Egypt and across North Africa, destroying corrupt Byzantine Christianity in their path.

In 710 A.D.3 the Islamic armies crossed the Straits of Gibral_tar and quickly conquered three-fourths of Spain and Portugal. They then invaded France and took one-third of the nation. They were 125 miles from Paris when they were miraculously defeated at the Battle of Poitiers (also known as the Battle of Tours) in 732 A.D. by a French army led by Charles Martel. Their influence in Spain lived on for a few more centuries before they were slowly driven back to North Africa.

A second powerful attempt to subjugate all of Europe was made 900 years later in the 17th Century when the Turks began to expand their Ottoman Empire. They took Greece, Yugosla_via, Bulgaria, and parts of Romania and Hungary. By 1683 they had reached the gates of Vienna where once again the Western forces won a miraculous victory against overwhelming odds.

Following this second attempt to conquer Europe, Islam fell into a state of depression and stagnation until it was awakened in the 20th Century due to several factors: Wealth and control of oil.

ScionDad

12-21-2005, 02:44 PM

Simplyscion

12-21-2005, 02:46 PM

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Well put my man

Sanjuro

12-21-2005, 03:34 PM

HeathenBrewing

12-21-2005, 03:39 PM

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how this can be a government conspiracy, when our government doesn't get along. If there was a shred of fact to this, the democrats would be all over it. Explain that, and I'll listen to the rest.

People really need to see beyond D vs R in this matter as they are two sides of the same coin anyway...both are the same intelligence vacum, differing on (basically) only abortion, god, and guns.

Both parties need to fall by the wayside IMO.

9/11 is bigger than political parties. Research will prove valuable in answering your questions.

The fact the Dems are not "all over it" should allow you to see some of the truer colors of politics. Politics has never (recently anyway) been about truth, only about power and $$$.

ScionDad

12-21-2005, 04:00 PM

I hope I didn't offend anyone there. I'm technically agnostic, but I am a spiritual person. I do own a Bible and I read from it. I am not anti-Christian or anti-Islam or even anti-religon.

I am just against religious bigotry and demonization of one religion in favor of another. I don't think Jesus or Mohammed or Siddhartha Gotama would approve of any of that. If Jesus were to return I think he would b*tch slap a lot of people. :lmao:

That's wonderful. Very thoughful too. Isn't it great you can say that here, in a Christian based nation. I agree completely.

However...you can't say that in Saudi, Iran, Egypt, Syria, etc, etc, etc. Why? Because THEIR religion disagrees with you so much...they will chop your head off to silence you. :rofl:

Wow, that sounded a bit condescending Sciondad. What book and verse did you learn that form of love and tolerance from? I think Boznox touched a nerve.

By the way the nation was founded by a majority of Deists not Chrisitians. Does the statement "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) ring a bell?

The country is not "based" in any religion, but the idea of democracy and freedom with a government for the people by the people. A place where ALL religions and beliefs can be practiced WITHOUT the fear of persecution.

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."
-George Washington

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise"
-James Madison

Religion is a wonderful thing when it is used to uplift and help people in their personal lives. However when you begin to force it on a secular world or rule of law, there is a fundemental breakdown that is often detrimental to society. Blurring the lines of fact and heresay using religious revisionist history knocks the foundation away from which this great nation was built.

We live in this nation because of what it stands for. I for one will do my part to not allow zealots turn it into something its not... no matter what religion they are.

Actually, it was quite sincere.......and truthful I might add. Since 90% of the nation consider themselves Christian....I would say it's a Christian nation. :nails:

And I will not allow PC people to change history and facts.

From the moment our founding fathers landed on Plymouth Rock (or sandy beach nearby)- it was founded in the name of God, by the grace of God. This is fact...yet removed from our public schools because it's not PC.

The Constitution of the USA was grounded in the principles of the Judeo-Christian religion and without that foundation neither our Constitution nor the liberty it guarantees could survive.

James Madison First. :no:

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read
Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, [judicial]
the LORD is our lawgiver, [legislative]
the LORD is our king; [executive]
He will save us.”

In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of
the Bible.
:shock: “ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress

Regarding George... Quite a famous speech. I'm not suprised it's missed in PUBLIC Schools today. :rofl:

President George Washington, September 17th, 1796 "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible"

His Prayer At Valley Forge "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prostrates myself before Thee."

"Bless O Lord the whole race of mankind, and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy Son, Jesus. "Of all dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens."

"To the distinguished character of a Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of a Christian."

The draft of the circular letter is in the hand of a secretary, although the signature is Washington's. Some have called this concluding paragraph "Washington's Prayer." In it, he asked God to: "dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation."

George Washington as he resigned his commission as general of the Continental Army on December 23, 1783. "I consider it an indispensable duty to close this last solemn act of my official life by commending the interests of our dearest country to the protection of Almighty God and those who have the superintendence of them into His holy keeping."

At the end of the Revolutionary War, when the announcement of official peace arrived in America, George Washington issued his final sentiments. In his circular letter to the States on June 8, 1783, even though Washington gratefully acknowledged that we had won the war, he urged them to recall something of much greater importance and to remember...

... the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation.

And.....For all you No Jesus in School people...separation of Church and State liberal Lie to our country....I think George had a different idea.

While encamped on the banks of a river, Washington was approached by Delaware Indian chiefs who desired that their youth be trained in American schools. In Washington's response, he first told them that "Congress... will look on them as on their own children." That is, we would train their children as if they were our own. He then commended the chiefs for their decision:

You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention.

According to George Washington, what students would learn in American schools "above all" was "the religion of Jesus Christ." :lalala:

Don't read PC history books....read the ACTUAL letters written without edit. I know, it's not PC and I'll get flamed for it.....but truth is the truth, like it or not :blah:

Sanjuro

12-21-2005, 05:17 PM

SCIONbrouillard

12-21-2005, 05:40 PM

Man.. would be nice if we could have a world without religion. No more bickering about who's better and who's God is better.

Just the same people with different kind of personalities living life the way it should be lived (without belief in anything but law and order). But then again, I'm dreaming. :(

ScionDad

12-21-2005, 05:50 PM

Sciondad, you SAID Christian BASED nation. Not Christian majority nation.

Just because someone says "God" or "Lord" doesnt mean they are talking about the Christian definition of "God" or "Lord".

Dude, our founding fathers didn't "land on Plymouth Rock', the pilgrims did to escape religious persecution and form their own colony in 1620. Other colonies were formed, disagreement with England enters the picture, we fight for independance. In 1787 the constitution was authored by our founding fathers who were considerably different than the people that landed in Plymouth.

I deleted the rest of this post because it would take it to a level that I dont want it to escalate to in this topic. Check out an Encylclopedia sometime to get the real story on George Washington's beliefs. Not info cut and pasted from fivedoves or some other christian based website.

The Constitution of the USA was grounded in the principles of the Judeo-Christian religion and is irrefutable fact.

The Pilgrims were English Separatists. In the first years of the 17th century, small numbers of English Puritans broke away from the Church of England because they felt that it had not completed the work of the Reformation. They committed themselves to a life based on the Bible. Not the Qu'ran, not the Torah, not Hindu, not Budda....

An Encyclopedia? :rofl:

No need.

I read first hand documents. You can find copies easily. You don't need someone else to edit content for you. I spend half my life removing the PC tripe and edited information. I want truth...not what someone else edited for me in their opinion of what I should know. This goes for scripture as well.

Same with Separation of Church and State. That's a Lie. No where, in the constitution is that phrase, nor is it implied anywhere except in the liberal minds of 1950's SCOTUS judges. Media now passes it off as fact and it's been pushed for so long, fools actually think it's true.

matt_a

12-21-2005, 07:05 PM

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how this can be a government conspiracy, when our government doesn't get along. If there was a shred of fact to this, the democrats would be all over it. Explain that, and I'll listen to the rest.

People really need to see beyond D vs R in this matter as they are two sides of the same coin anyway...both are the same intelligence vacum, differing on (basically) only abortion, god, and guns.

Both parties need to fall by the wayside IMO.

9/11 is bigger than political parties. Research will prove valuable in answering your questions.

The fact the Dems are not "all over it" should allow you to see some of the truer colors of politics. Politics has never (recently anyway) been about truth, only about power and $$$.So let me get this straight. Are you insinuating that both political parties are in on it? That both the democrats and republicans know about it and have agreed to keep it a secret? :rofl:

HeathenBrewing

12-21-2005, 07:12 PM

]So let me get this straight. Are you insinuating that both political parties are in on it? That both the democrats and republicans know about it and have agreed to keep it a secret? :rofl:

No, I am insinuating that neither party cares for the smae reason most Americans don't care....too busy with theire own lives to do some investigation.

Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Rent a DVD called "What A Blast" which is a Discovery channel-like program taking you inside the controlled demolition world.

Then watch one of the two DVD's previously mentioned by me.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Your eyes are not D or R. They only show what is put in front of them.

matt_a

12-21-2005, 07:26 PM

]So let me get this straight. Are you insinuating that both political parties are in on it? That both the democrats and republicans know about it and have agreed to keep it a secret? :rofl:

No, I am insinuating that neither party cares for the smae reason most Americans don't care....too busy with theire own lives to do some investigation.

Okay, so if I understand you correctly, now we're back to it being something the republicans did, but the democrats don't know about.....but we do. Do you honestly think for one minute that if there was any truth to it at all, the democrats wouldn't have jumped on it? They would love nothing better than to bring Bush down. If this were true, they'd be able to have him thrown in prison for life. But you think they're "just too busy to care". Sorry....that just doesn't make any sense at all.

HeathenBrewing

12-21-2005, 07:32 PM

Okay, so if I understand you correctly, now we're back to it being something the republicans did, but the democrats don't know about.....but we do. Do you honestly think for one minute that if there was any truth to it at all, the democrats wouldn't have jumped on it? They would love nothing better than to bring Bush down. If this were true, they'd be able to have him thrown in prison for life. But you think they're "just too busy to care". Sorry....that just doesn't make any sense at all.

Im sorry I just dont think you get it. I would lOVE to hear you explain the collapse of WTC 7. FEMA was unable to do so because they want the collapse to fit into the story being sold to the world. The only plausable way to explain it is through the use of explosives.

Care to give it a shot?

If you truly care about the truth you must watch some of the DVD's mentioned (FYI - None are any that I have worked on by the way) and be able to think critically.

Consider the following:

Twin Towers

The Twin Towers exploded into dust and shattered steel, a behavior inconsistent with the known behavior of steel structures outside of explosive demolition.

The South Tower was struck 17 minutes after the North Tower, and in a less damaging manner, and it had less severe fires, yet it collapsed 29 minutes before the North Tower.

The South Tower's core structure was largely undamaged by the off-centered jet impact, unlike the North Tower, yet it collapsed sooner.

The South Tower had much less severe fires than the North Tower, and yet collapsed sooner.

Smoke from the fires in the South Tower became progressively darker up to the time it collapsed.

Firefighters reached the crash zone of the South Tower and calmly described controllable fires.

Both towers started to disintegrate at regions above and below the crash zones in the first seconds of their falls.

Both towers fell straight down, through themselves, following the path of maximum resistance, a behavior never before observed in spontaneous collapses of any type of vertical structure.

The collapses of both towers exhibited features never otherwise seen except in controlled demolitions: sudden onset accompanied by thunderous bangs, visible explosions ringing their perimeters, energetic ejections of dust at regular intervals, and copious production of dust.

Both towers exploded outward and where shredded and pulverized -- a pattern of destruction much more destructive than normal controlled demolitions, yet this result was supposedly produced without the added energy of explosives.

HeathenBrewing

12-21-2005, 07:35 PM

Building 7

Building 7 imploded late on 9/11/01. It was not hit by an aircraft.

Building 7 experienced total collapse, allegedly because of fires, when no steel-frame building before or since has ever collapsed, totally or even partially, due to fires.

Building 7 was an over-engineered 47-story steel-frame skyscraper, standing over 350 feet from the nearest of the Twin Towers. Only small fires burned in it on September 11th.

Building 7 collapsed in a nearly perfectly vertical fall, leaving the buildings only 60 feet on either side virtually unscathed.

Building 7 collapsed into a remarkably small rubble pile of mostly pulverized remains, when no steel building falling for any reason has ever pulverized itself.

Building 7 contained a 23-million-dollar emergency command center, but instead of using it for its ostensible purpose, then-Mayor Giuliani evacuated his team to a makeshift command center as soon as the September 11th attack started.

The emergency command center was destroyed along with the rest of the building, even though it was constructed as a bomb-hardened shelter.

The remains of Building 7 were rapidly removed and the steel recycled, evidently without any on-site and only extremely limited off-site examination. The rapid disposal operation proceeded despite the fact that no one was believed buried in the rubble, and the tidy rubble pile was not blocking adjacent roads.

The building's owner, Larry Silverstein, stated on a PBS documentary that he had conferred with the fire department commander on a decision to "pull it." Neither the FEMA nor NIST reports commented on this remark.

HeathenBrewing

12-21-2005, 07:38 PM

Through out my years of trying to enlighten people, I hear a lot that what I say "is just crazy". So I ask them to explain how 7 fell. No one can do it.

Here I offer up a possible conclusion and ask the same of you...if not explosives, then HOW? That is the question that MUST be answered before we get into the political blame game.

matt_a

12-21-2005, 07:45 PM

oldmanatee

12-21-2005, 07:45 PM

OK, I hate myself already for coming back into this, but, for the love, WHEN did the government have time to rig the explosives? Why would they do it? Who did they get to do it? There are reports of the city officials worrying that the towers MIGHT fall due to high winds from hurricaines.....I have not lived thru a hurricaine nor a jet crash, but I would imagine that the jet crash is a tad more violent.

PLEASE someone, explain just what on God's green earth the government had to gain from this. They have made no profit from war, they didn't need to go this extreme just to try to kill Sadam, if it was for oil, why are the OPEC nations still getting rich off of us?

Some of us that are more conservative has asked questions that don't get an answer, yet some of you that are more conspiracy minded get huffy if we don't answer your questions, and when we do, you just ask them over another way.
9 pages of this should have not only solved this, but, we should be well on the way to finding a cure for cancer.....

matt_a

12-21-2005, 07:51 PM

9 pages of this should have not only solved this, but, we should be well on the way to finding a cure for cancer.....What? Oh man.....I thought we agreed on Diabetes first. Back to the drawing board.

HeathenBrewing

12-21-2005, 07:51 PM

matt_a

12-21-2005, 07:57 PM

You still haven't answered my question. You keep changing the subject and you're trying to focus on all the circumstantial "evidence" that these videos show. I'm asking you to explain to me how it could be possible that our government did this. The bottom line is this: There are only two possible explanations for this to be a government conspiracy.

#1 The republicans did it. We all know about it, yet the democrats who would give their left testicle for this kind of information do not know about it.

#2 Both the democrats and the republicans know about it and have all agreed to cover it all up.

Which is it?

You just dont GET IT. What I am saying is what the gov't has said about the WTC 1,2 and 7 is impossible. THAT is my point.*Sigh* Okay, let's try this a different way. Let's say you are 100% correct and it was all a government conspiracy. Let's say they did it. Now what? It brings us back to my two choices. Care to pick one?

#1 The republicans did it. We all know about it, yet the democrats who would give their left testicle for this kind of information do not know about it.

#2 Both the democrats and the republicans know about it and have all agreed to cover it all up.

oldmanatee

12-21-2005, 07:57 PM

If it was impossible, the dang buildings would still be standing!

HeathenBrewing

12-21-2005, 07:57 PM

OK, I hate myself already for coming back into this, but, for the love, WHEN did the government have time to rig the explosives?(1) Why would they do it?(2) Who did they get to do it?(3) There are reports of the city officials worrying that the towers MIGHT fall due to high winds from hurricaines.....I have not lived thru a hurricaine nor a jet crash, but I would imagine that the jet crash is a tad more violent.

PLEASE someone, explain just what on God's green earth the government had to gain from this. They have made no profit from war, they didn't need to go this extreme just to try to kill Sadam, if it was for oil, why are the OPEC nations still getting rich off of us?

Some of us that are more conservative has asked questions that don't get an answer, yet some of you that are more conspiracy minded get huffy if we don't answer your questions, and when we do, you just ask them over another way.
9 pages of this should have not only solved this, but, we should be well on the way to finding a cure for cancer.....

(1) Rigging a building for explosives would take weeks, if not months to accomplish. This would lead one to believe that there was foreknowledge of the plane attacks

(2)Ask Larry Silverstein:

"NEW YORK — A federal jury ruled Monday that the Sept. 11 attack on the World Trade Center was two occurrences for insurance purposes, meaning leaseholder Larry Silverstein stands to collect up to $2.2 billion from nine insurers."
-Wall Street Journal 6dec04

(3) I do not know. Ask Mr. Silverstein.

The way I see it, I have dropped down MANY points and NO ONE is questioning those....they just want to turn it into a political shell game.

Politics are a waste of time.