Also just an idea to the mods of whoever, Why not make a post of an unbiased comparison between the two cars (not which one is better) just pros and cons of each then sticky it and make it the official tc and si thread so no more of these arguements pop up.

Id do the pros and cons my self but I think that should be left to someone more knowledgeble about performance.

But Honda does not support aftermarket as much as they used to. This is a fact. With that they aren't spending as much money into building the aftermarket for thier cars compared to scion.
S


I think I might have to disagree with that statement. Reason being is from the pure fact that they donated like 6 or so new 06 Si's to the like of the Aftermarket companies (ie..GReddy, AEM, Tein...etc), to build thier concepts for the Sema Show. And also to mention, they seem to be the driving endorser behind MTV's new tuner TV show called "Trick it Out".

The only reason I can think of as to why they didn't spend as much money into building the aftermarket for their cars, is because they don't have to. They have "Brand" recgonition in the aftermarket world, becuase every freaking body has a stinkin Honda civic with a crappy wing on the back. So, when the SI came out, they relied on the name "SI" (which stands for What? by the way), to keep it's aftermarket roots.


Reality though, the new 06 SI is the only Civic fast enough to beat a stock tC.. :yawn: (my fighting words for today).

si stands for street injection. And someone consider my previous post above.

I'm not saying Honda doesn't support aftermarkt.

What I am saying is they don't support it as much as they used to.

Killer. I don't know if you've looked in a civic SI engine bay. But the XB has room in Spades compared to the Civic SI LOL

And as for the parts comment. I didn't say parts weren't comming out (I believe Honda already has a Optional suspension kit you can purchase)

But Honda does not support aftermarket as much as they used to. This is a fact. With that they aren't spending as much money into building the aftermarket for thier cars compared to scion.

So Like I said before "expect MORE parts FASTER" from Scion.

There will still be parts for the civic SI. Just don't expect them to be released as fast or as plentiful

95% of what scion offers is cosmetic, not performance. Honda doesn't have to support the aftermarket, its natural for the aftermarket to support their cars. They have spent thousands of dollars, as rythmn mentioned donating their Si to companies before the car even hit show rooms. Almost two months prior to coming out the Si was in the hands of AEM/DC, and i think a few other companies at that time. That in itself should tell you they support the aftermarket and what the market has to offer their tuners that buy the cars.

rhythmnsmoke; you keep saying the new Si is just fast enough to beat a stock tC. Okay, how about this one. The ep3 Si is identically fast to the tC in stock forum, and with i/h/e. Don't believe me? Go to streetfire, any honda site, or any other source you could think of that supplies videos. Countless people have raced against the ep3 with their tC's and have either lost, or came so close its declared impossible to say who won. I have seen one race personally of a ep3 and a tC on the track, tC had i/h/e and a few other things, Si had i/h/e and short shifter. Si ran something like 15.2, and the tC ran the identical time only the last two numbers were slower. 15.2XX, x's implying numbers. Your one of the few who have just flat out killed a ep3, and my knowledge of both cars. As i have said numerous times, equal drivers, you wouldn't have killed him.

My point with the ep3 and new Si? New Si is quite a bit faster than the previous Si, new Si with a good driver would be hard pressed to keep up with your i/h/e tC. With the supercharger, as i have said before, almost identical times with a stock Si. I'll give you this, the tC with the supercharger could be slightly faster with dead even drivers. But in no way, would the s/c tC smoke or even kill a stock Si. It's amusing how, when the new Si came out and everyone saw the stock Si running low 15's with magizine drivers, the tC stock all of a sudden became a 15.4-15.5 car stock.

rhythmnsmoke; you keep saying the new Si is just fast enough to beat a stock tC. Okay, how about this one. The ep3 Si is identically fast to the tC in stock forum, and with i/h/e. Don't believe me? Go to streetfire, any honda site, or any other source you could think of that supplies videos. Countless people have raced against the ep3 with their tC's and have either lost, or came so close its declared impossible to say who won. I have seen one race personally of a ep3 and a tC on the track, tC had i/h/e and a few other things, Si had i/h/e and short shifter. Si ran something like 15.2, and the tC ran the identical time only the last two numbers were slower. 15.2XX, x's implying numbers. Your one of the few who have just flat out killed a ep3, and my knowledge of both cars. As i have said numerous times, equal drivers, you wouldn't have killed him.

My point with the ep3 and new Si? New Si is quite a bit faster than the previous Si, new Si with a good driver would be hard pressed to keep up with your i/h/e tC. With the supercharger, as i have said before, almost identical times with a stock Si. I'll give you this, the tC with the supercharger could be slightly faster with dead even drivers. But in no way, would the s/c tC smoke or even kill a stock Si. It's amusing how, when the new Si came out and everyone saw the stock Si running low 15's with magizine drivers, the tC stock all of a sudden became a 15.4-15.5 car stock.


Read carefully....I said the new 06 SI is the only one that BEATS a stock tC. Coming close to the times (in some cases equal times), is different from a flat out definitive win. Stock vs Stock the 06 SI is the ONLY one that DEFINITIVELY would win against a STOCK tC. And I would have to disagree on the almost identical times. SI with 197hp at the crank vs. a tC with 200hp at the Wheels, sorry dude that's at least a 1 1/2 to 2 car lenght by the time you hit 100mph. 20lbs in weight difference won't even be noticed.

And I can't recall any "written" or "verbal" confirmation of ANYONE saying that a stock tC was running a 15.4-15.5 1/4.

rhythmnsmoke; you keep saying the new Si is just fast enough to beat a stock tC. Okay, how about this one. The ep3 Si is identically fast to the tC in stock forum, and with i/h/e. Don't believe me? Go to streetfire, any honda site, or any other source you could think of that supplies videos. Countless people have raced against the ep3 with their tC's and have either lost, or came so close its declared impossible to say who won. I have seen one race personally of a ep3 and a tC on the track, tC had i/h/e and a few other things, Si had i/h/e and short shifter. Si ran something like 15.2, and the tC ran the identical time only the last two numbers were slower. 15.2XX, x's implying numbers. Your one of the few who have just flat out killed a ep3, and my knowledge of both cars. As i have said numerous times, equal drivers, you wouldn't have killed him.

My point with the ep3 and new Si? New Si is quite a bit faster than the previous Si, new Si with a good driver would be hard pressed to keep up with your i/h/e tC. With the supercharger, as i have said before, almost identical times with a stock Si. I'll give you this, the tC with the supercharger could be slightly faster with dead even drivers. But in no way, would the s/c tC smoke or even kill a stock Si. It's amusing how, when the new Si came out and everyone saw the stock Si running low 15's with magizine drivers, the tC stock all of a sudden became a 15.4-15.5 car stock.


Read carefully....I said the new 06 SI is the only one that BEATS a stock tC. Coming close to the times (in some cases equal times), is different from a flat out definitive win. Stock vs Stock the 06 SI is the ONLY one that DEFINITIVELY would win against a STOCK tC. And I would have to disagree on the almost identical times. SI with 197hp at the crank vs. a tC with 200hp at the Wheels, sorry dude that's at least a 1 1/2 to 2 car lenght by the time you hit 100mph. 20lbs in weight difference won't even be noticed.

And I can't recall any "written" or "verbal" confirmation of ANYONE saying that a stock tC was running a 15.4-15.5 1/4.

git em rythm, GIT EM!


suck it once more killerx

What is TRUELY amusing "killerx" is how you think the SI is in on a totally different scale than the tC, and we only WISH to be as good as the 06 (or any previous) SI's for that matter. Sure you don't say that, and you give props to the 2az all day, but between the lines in every one of your post, you take jabs at the tC, and put out this persona that it's light years beneath the SI, when in reality, It's in the same category/class/buyer group.

git em rythm, GIT EM!


suck it once more killerx



:rofl: :rofl: Stop man, my bladder is about to explode!

rhythmnsmoke; you keep saying the new Si is just fast enough to beat a stock tC. Okay, how about this one. The ep3 Si is identically fast to the tC in stock forum, and with i/h/e. Don't believe me? Go to streetfire, any honda site, or any other source you could think of that supplies videos. Countless people have raced against the ep3 with their tC's and have either lost, or came so close its declared impossible to say who won. I have seen one race personally of a ep3 and a tC on the track, tC had i/h/e and a few other things, Si had i/h/e and short shifter. Si ran something like 15.2, and the tC ran the identical time only the last two numbers were slower. 15.2XX, x's implying numbers. Your one of the few who have just flat out killed a ep3, and my knowledge of both cars. As i have said numerous times, equal drivers, you wouldn't have killed him.

My point with the ep3 and new Si? New Si is quite a bit faster than the previous Si, new Si with a good driver would be hard pressed to keep up with your i/h/e tC. With the supercharger, as i have said before, almost identical times with a stock Si. I'll give you this, the tC with the supercharger could be slightly faster with dead even drivers. But in no way, would the s/c tC smoke or even kill a stock Si. It's amusing how, when the new Si came out and everyone saw the stock Si running low 15's with magizine drivers, the tC stock all of a sudden became a 15.4-15.5 car stock.


Read carefully....I said the new 06 SI is the only one that BEATS a stock tC. Coming close to the times (in some cases equal times), is different from a flat out definitive win. Stock vs Stock the 06 SI is the ONLY one that DEFINITIVELY would win against a STOCK tC. And I would have to disagree on the almost identical times. SI with 197hp at the crank vs. a tC with 200hp at the Wheels, sorry dude that's at least a 1 1/2 to 2 car lenght by the time you hit 100mph. 20lbs in weight difference won't even be noticed.

And I can't recall any "written" or "verbal" confirmation of ANYONE saying that a stock tC was running a 15.4-15.5 1/4.

What is TRUELY amusing is how you think the SI is in on a totally different scale than the tC, and we only WISH to be as good as the 06 (or any previous) SI's for that matter. Sure you don't say that, and you give props to the 2az all day, but between the lines in every one of your post, you take jabs at the tC, and put out this persona that it's light years beneath the SI, when in reality, It's in the same category/class/buyer group.

Would you like me to take jabs at the Si for a change to make you feel better? The k20z3's ecu is weaker than previous Si motors, and is one of the weaker K20 series ecu's. It can hold up well, but will need to management earlier than previous and other motors hondas put out with the exception of the D series, B16b, and a few others. The engine bay has significantly changed for the fact theres not near as much room to play with compared to the ep3 and other si's. While this could work against you, if you know what your doing the size difference, rather space difference wouldn't effect the possible out come of a build up. It is more heavy than previous years, but also has a bigger platform in terms of motor and a slightly heavier trans now with the 6speed. But the weight added has been cancelled out sort of speak by the additional power its making, the gearing, and more aerodynamic than other years..Especially the ep3.

I have never said the new Si was perfect, but many of you are completely down playing what the Si is able to do. 06' Si is the only honda that can beat you? Or do you mean Si's. Stock for Stock, the EP3 would be a drivers race. The tC wouldn't just kill it regardless of what you've done, its been shown 15x over again if you just looked around. B series Si would be one you could beat, however in terms of build up its a stronger n/a platform than the 2az is. You praise the 2az a ton, i give it props but have you actually seen the internals of the 2az? There are a ton of weaknesses to the 2az that i don't think you realize is there.

200whp with supercharger? I think not, more like 185-190whp. The Si isn't far behind that, it then becomes a drivers race for sure. When it becomes that close, every single little thing matters in the end result.

Now i will say, in terms of f/i the 2az is a better starting platform than the k20z3 is, or any other honda thats in the u.s. But n/a, specifically the z3 since thats what we are talking about, is a much better platform than the 2az is to begin with.

Since we are talking about aftermarket support and the supposed cosmetic only enhancements scion offers. Have you ever looked at what is available from a dealer for the new si? The new si does not offer any power adders. Thats right absolutely none. Only thing close that is offered is a sport muffler which adds only sound. No hp or ft/lb gains at all. The suspension package lowers the car less than 1" front and rear and does not help the handling at all. It is purely a visual statement. This is from my rep's mouth. Also when you talk about the aftermarket support, I do not deny that honda gave out a bunch of si's took inspire new parts. However very few parts can be added without causing a warranty issue. Example we just denied a claim to a guy on his stereo. He blew the factory amp by changing the stock speakers to aftermarket. Also speaking of this, that radio everyone is so interested in is a $2500 radio. It only comes as that entire piece. And since killerx likes to go to the internal's of the two cars. The setup of the si's motor internally is the same as every other honda motor. Ductile sleeves with nothing forged. If you want a good honda motor out of the box in my opinion, go look at the s2000 f20c and f22c, and the tsx k24. Those are great motors. The si motor while better than the last few is nothing special when compared to the rsx type s. Matter of fact they are almost the same.

Since we are talking about aftermarket support and the supposed cosmetic only enhancements scion offers. Have you ever looked at what is available from a dealer for the new si? The new si does not offer any power adders. Thats right absolutely none. Only thing close that is offered is a sport muffler which adds only sound. No hp or ft/lb gains at all. The suspension package lowers the car less than 1" front and rear and does not help the handling at all. It is purely a visual statement. This is from my rep's mouth. Also when you talk about the aftermarket support, I do not deny that honda gave out a bunch of si's took inspire new parts. However very few parts can be added without causing a warranty issue. Example we just denied a claim to a guy on his stereo. He blew the factory amp by changing the stock speakers to aftermarket. Also speaking of this, that radio everyone is so interested in is a $2500 radio. It only comes as that entire piece. And since killerx likes to go to the internal's of the two cars. The setup of the si's motor internally is the same as every other honda motor. Ductile sleeves with nothing forged. If you want a good honda motor out of the box in my opinion, go look at the s2000 f20c and f22c, and the tsx k24. Those are great motors. The si motor while better than the last few is nothing special when compared to the rsx type s. Matter of fact they are almost the same.

USA Honda has rarely offered any performance packages for their cars, Japan Honda as well as a few other countries have Spoon as well as a very other Honda specific companies that can do that for them. Honda knows aftermarket companies jump all over their cars, especially ones like the Si. They know they don't need to sell factory parts because quite frankly, why would they need to? The few parts they have sold in the past didn't do them any justice because the aftermarket overwhelmed what they could offer.

If you want to go that route, Toyota also offers hardly anything thats genuine Toyota that increases power, or any performance. Bring up TRD? You can't finance TRD parts when you buy the car at just about all dealerships because TRD while shares and go through Toyota testing, is considered aftermarket. TRD is like Spoon and mugen for honda, only difference is you have to import almost all Spoon and Mugen parts because they don't really have any plants here. And the few parts that are made here aren't the same as the imported parts in terms of quality.

So your entire dealership performance arguement really serves no purpose.

Yes, the k20z3 isn't that much different than any other K series, i never said it was. What i said was theres a ton of weak internal parts on the 2az. The K series has its faults too, just like any other motor it could benefit with upgrades. But its a stronger platform than the 2az, and a better platform for n/a than the tC.

doesnt matter if its better n/a platform than the tC, u can only go so far bein na. the 2az is a better platform FI.

cyaa

I find it interesting that you bring up spoon and mugen a honda's version of trd. Although they would be the closest of the aftermarket companies to such an idea their parts are not supported by honda. If you add a trd component to your toyota you get a part that does not void your factory warranty in the event of a problem, whereas a mugen or spoon product does.

rhythmnsmoke; you keep saying the new Si is just fast enough to beat a stock tC. Okay, how about this one. The ep3 Si is identically fast to the tC in stock forum, and with i/h/e. Don't believe me? Go to streetfire, any honda site, or any other source you could think of that supplies videos. Countless people have raced against the ep3 with their tC's and have either lost, or came so close its declared impossible to say who won. I have seen one race personally of a ep3 and a tC on the track, tC had i/h/e and a few other things, Si had i/h/e and short shifter. Si ran something like 15.2, and the tC ran the identical time only the last two numbers were slower. 15.2XX, x's implying numbers. Your one of the few who have just flat out killed a ep3, and my knowledge of both cars. As i have said numerous times, equal drivers, you wouldn't have killed him.

My point with the ep3 and new Si? New Si is quite a bit faster than the previous Si, new Si with a good driver would be hard pressed to keep up with your i/h/e tC. With the supercharger, as i have said before, almost identical times with a stock Si. I'll give you this, the tC with the supercharger could be slightly faster with dead even drivers. But in no way, would the s/c tC smoke or even kill a stock Si. It's amusing how, when the new Si came out and everyone saw the stock Si running low 15's with magizine drivers, the tC stock all of a sudden became a 15.4-15.5 car stock.


Read carefully....I said the new 06 SI is the only one that BEATS a stock tC. Coming close to the times (in some cases equal times), is different from a flat out definitive win. Stock vs Stock the 06 SI is the ONLY one that DEFINITIVELY would win against a STOCK tC. And I would have to disagree on the almost identical times. SI with 197hp at the crank vs. a tC with 200hp at the Wheels, sorry dude that's at least a 1 1/2 to 2 car lenght by the time you hit 100mph. 20lbs in weight difference won't even be noticed.

And I can't recall any "written" or "verbal" confirmation of ANYONE saying that a stock tC was running a 15.4-15.5 1/4.

What is TRUELY amusing is how you think the SI is in on a totally different scale than the tC, and we only WISH to be as good as the 06 (or any previous) SI's for that matter. Sure you don't say that, and you give props to the 2az all day, but between the lines in every one of your post, you take jabs at the tC, and put out this persona that it's light years beneath the SI, when in reality, It's in the same category/class/buyer group.

Would you like me to take jabs at the Si for a change to make you feel better? The k20z3's ecu is weaker than previous Si motors, and is one of the weaker K20 series ecu's. It can hold up well, but will need to management earlier than previous and other motors hondas put out with the exception of the D series, B16b, and a few others. The engine bay has significantly changed for the fact theres not near as much room to play with compared to the ep3 and other si's. While this could work against you, if you know what your doing the size difference, rather space difference wouldn't effect the possible out come of a build up. It is more heavy than previous years, but also has a bigger platform in terms of motor and a slightly heavier trans now with the 6speed. But the weight added has been cancelled out sort of speak by the additional power its making, the gearing, and more aerodynamic than other years..Especially the ep3.

I'm sure they will find some way of sqeezing a turbo in there. The Tein SI is turbo'd. Maybe the STS style turbo systems might be a better route for the small engine bay.

I have never said the new Si was perfect, but many of you are completely down playing what the Si is able to do. 06' Si is the only honda that can beat you? Or do you mean Si's.

Of course I was NOT saying that the 06 SI was the ONLY Honda that could beat a tC. Of course I'm talking about in the Civic line-up. Of course an S2000 would roast my a$$, and I would loose to the last generation Prelude. I'm not stupid man! :tap:


Stock for Stock, the EP3 would be a drivers race. The tC wouldn't just kill it regardless of what you've done, its been shown 15x over again if you just looked around. B series Si would be one you could beat, however in terms of build up its a stronger n/a platform than the 2az is. You praise the 2az a ton, i give it props but have you actually seen the internals of the 2az? There are a ton of weaknesses to the 2az that i don't think you realize is there.

For the record, I don't down play the new SI. I'm sure it is really quick(will find out just how quick hopefully this weekend, when I race my friend). I was just more or less trying to say the SI vs. TC thing is not like a Diamond vs. A Gem Stone. And yes, I've seen the insides (I visit ZPI at least twice a month). But despite some of the weakness, it still is able to handle 350whp on a good tune with those same weak stock internals. In some cases 400whp.

200whp with supercharger? I think not, more like 185-190whp. The Si isn't far behind that, it then becomes a drivers race for sure. When it becomes that close, every single little thing matters in the end result.

185-190whp WITHOUT the typical performance upgrades I/H/E. Still though 180wph > 197crank power. The Exhaust is 95% the FIRST thing installed on a car. So, to say 185-190whp is to say you will run the S/C and the S/C only for the life of the car. So, the chances that an SI will race a S/C ONLY modded tC on the streets is Slim to None. By the way, S/C with i/h/e average dyno #'s are 240-245whp.

Now i will say, in terms of f/i the 2az is a better starting platform than the k20z3 is, or any other honda thats in the u.s. But n/a, specifically the z3 since thats what we are talking about, is a much better platform than the 2az is to begin with.

I agree. If I was running a Civic, N/A route would be the way to go as it would be a little more difficult going the F/I route. You could do a N/A build on the 2az, but I would go the route of F/I over N/A on that platform. Engines slightly favor one or the other, I don't recall seeing ANY engine that had the same equal potential whether it was F/I or N/A, just not the case with design and technology. Favortisim to which side will all depend on the Engineering behind the motor.

well aestheticallly and interior wise, the tC rules IMHO...i mean the SI is just ugly in and out. however the engine is another story, but good luck for all those who plan to go FI with the new SI's...they are way to small to fit anything, you would have a tiny ___ turbo if you did plan to make it fit. and why are they comparing tC's to the SI's...they arent even in the same price range.

^ 240-245whp? Yeah, i/h/e doesn't add 50whp even with f/i. I/h/e with the supercharger would be more like 200-205whp.

Also, yeah the 2az can handle 350whp without upgrading any internals, but it won't last long at all. Even with a great tune, and everything running great it wouldn't last much more than a year without running into problems i bet you. Why do you think scionspeed owners run into problems so fast? Aside from their kit sucking, its too much power for the internals to handle. Even 250whp is going to cause problems within the first three years if driven daily without doing any internal work.

I agree, its going to be hard pressed for a Si to race a s/c only tC. But thats what this entire thread was about, only the supercharger vs a stock Si. Not i/h/e s/c, not s/c with pulley, not lsd, nothing. Plain and simple, s/c only vs. stock Si. Aside from that, not many respectable honda owners race their stock cars so its not like racing a stock Si is going to be every day either. It's a pretty hard topic in that sense, because i don't know anyone that races a stock car, and not many people just have the supercharger alone..not for long at least. But that is what this thread is based on.

well aestheticallly and interior wise, the tC rules IMHO...i mean the SI is just ugly in and out. however the engine is another story, but good luck for all those who plan to go FI with the new SI's...they are way to small to fit anything, you would have a tiny butt turbo if you did plan to make it fit. and why are they comparing tC's to the SI's...they arent even in the same price range.

Looks is just opinion, so its not like that could be based for fact. In my opinion, the Si looks great. I perfered the Ep3 body to be honest, i liked that better than previous models in terms of looks. But the new Si looks great, to me anyway.

Si and tC are both under $20,000, this is why they are comparing it. Not to mention, half the people on here including you i'm assuming, hate the thought of being beat by a civic. Since you usally see the poorly done, big winged, multicolored civic's people assume honda and civic's have no potential and is just a pos. Not the case, affordable cars go to hell with the newbies and kids that think big wings add 50whp.

umm can you explain a little further what you mean by the engine not being able to handle 250hp without upgrading internals? im pretty sure it could, and what would you have to upgrade anyways, just pistons rite?

But its a stronger platform than the 2az, and a better platform for n/a than the tC.


2az is a better F/I platform than K20z3. But does that make it weaker...no. It's just better at a different sport (F/I).

But its a stronger platform than the 2az, and a better platform for n/a than the tC.


2az is a better F/I platform than K20z3. But does that make it weaker...no. It's just better at a different sport (F/I).

If you compare the 2az to other motors out there that are similar displacement, and just look at the internals its not the best even for f/i. Yeah, it can handle it but the internals are weak to a certain degree.

blackonblack; if i were to do a turbo on the 2az, and say i was going to run around 250whp. I'd replace injectors, pistons, clutch, rod, definitely do management, intercooler, upgrade a few trans parts, then do stuff like exhaust and the such. I know a lot of the parts i mentioned are usually included with kits, but i just wanted to include everything. I could probably go further, but thats what i would do.

230whp (doubling stock power output)
6 psi
EVO III GT Big 16g
Tial Wastegate (silver)
Stainless charge piping
4 ply couplers
Stainless Manifold
Pre tapped Oil pan
All fuel and timing tuning already complete
Comes with new oil pan making it a true bolt on kit

i figure that i dont need pistons since it doesnt require them..and i plan to get emanage, zpi's turbo pistons, and since i have an auto their ESK, and a TMIC. exhaust is a must...but thats not really included with a turbo kit, but i plan to get the Draxas. also im gettin a HKS BOV

OK, this has gone on long enough.. I can't believe what I just read.... SI vs TC? who cares....
what drives me nuts???

BLACK RULES??? are you kidding me???

Come on you Flint Mica owners, UNITE!!!

Let's stop this madness........ this can't go on any longer.... pleazzzzzzzz

sorry, just thought i'd lighten up the mood. I know we're all passionate about our cars, but man this sure can go on a long time here...

^ 240-245whp? Yeah, i/h/e doesn't add 50whp even with f/i. I/h/e with the supercharger would be more like 200-205whp.

Dude, USE THE SEARCH BUTTON! :tap: 200-205whp...YOU GOT TO BE JOKING! I'm pretty sure by now everyone of the S/C guys are running a new pulley. So, again chances are that an 06 Si driver will race a S/C ONLY modded tC is slim to NONE.

Also, yeah the 2az can handle 350whp without upgrading any internals, but it won't last long at all. Even with a great tune, and everything running great it wouldn't last much more than a year without running into problems i bet you. Why do you think scionspeed owners run into problems so fast? Aside from their kit sucking, its too much power for the internals to handle. Even 250whp is going to cause problems within the first three years if driven daily without doing any internal work.

That is neither hear nor there. As a tC with 350whp hasn't been around that long. PS....the k20 will have even more problems on a F/I setup with stock internals than the 2az. If you BEAT on the engine everyday, of course longevity will be lesser. But you are making it a little dramatic. You can't Prove it, because it dosen't EXIST!

^I agree, its going to be hard pressed for a Si to race a s/c only tC. But thats what this entire thread was about, only the supercharger vs a stock Si. Not i/h/e s/c, not s/c with pulley, not lsd, nothing. Plain and simple, s/c only vs. stock Si. Aside from that, not many respectable honda owners race their stock cars so its not like racing a stock Si is going to be every day either. It's a pretty hard topic in that sense, because i don't know anyone that races a stock car, and not many people just have the supercharger alone..not for long at least. But that is what this thread is based on.

Haahaa..talk to this guy name Josh here in the Boro. His 06 Si is all stock, and he races all the time. I'm going to race him this weekend, just to see how much quicker he is over me. I don't know how good of a driver he is, but we will find out.

230whp (doubling stock power output)
6 psi
EVO III GT Big 16g
Tial Wastegate (silver)
Stainless charge piping
4 ply couplers
Stainless Manifold
Pre tapped Oil pan
All fuel and timing tuning already complete
Comes with new oil pan making it a true bolt on kit

i figure that i dont need pistons since it doesnt require them..and i plan to get emanage, zpi's turbo pistons, and since i have an auto their ESK, and a TMIC. exhaust is a must...but thats not really included with a turbo kit, but i plan to get the Draxas. also im gettin a HKS BOV

Then why bother with emanage or any management if the kit doesn't include them? Not trying to be a jerk but you say you don't think you need pistons, but you need management but both aren't included. I'd upgrade the pistons if i were you. Being you have an auto, atf cooler is a must for you. (automatic trans fluid cooler) You also will need to run synthetic trans fluid, synthetic motor oil too if you didn't already know that.

But its a stronger platform than the 2az, and a better platform for n/a than the tC.


2az is a better F/I platform than K20z3. But does that make it weaker...no. It's just better at a different sport (F/I).

If you compare the 2az to other motors out there that are similar displacement, and just look at the internals its not the best even for f/i. Yeah, it can handle it but the internals are weak to a certain degree.

We are talking about the 2az vs. the k20 remember. Stay on topic.


blackonblack; if i were to do a turbo on the 2az, and say i was going to run around 250whp. I'd replace injectors, pistons, clutch, rod, definitely do management, intercooler, upgrade a few trans parts, then do stuff like exhaust and the such. I know a lot of the parts i mentioned are usually included with kits, but i just wanted to include everything. I could probably go further, but thats what i would do.

Those are all AFTER thought upgrades. Don't make it seem like it's an IMMEDIATE must have in order to go turbo, or your engine will BLOW UP! You can do all that as it comes and you want to upgrade something when you don't have anything else to do.

Hey, this isn't even about turbo's. Stay on topic! :rofl: :rofl: jk.

230whp (doubling stock power output)
6 psi
EVO III GT Big 16g
Tial Wastegate (silver)
Stainless charge piping
4 ply couplers
Stainless Manifold
Pre tapped Oil pan
All fuel and timing tuning already complete
Comes with new oil pan making it a true bolt on kit

i figure that i dont need pistons since it doesnt require them..and i plan to get emanage, zpi's turbo pistons, and since i have an auto their ESK, and a TMIC. exhaust is a must...but thats not really included with a turbo kit, but i plan to get the Draxas. also im gettin a HKS BOV

Then why bother with emanage or any management if the kit doesn't include them? Not trying to be a jerk but you say you don't think you need pistons, but you need management but both aren't included. I'd upgrade the pistons if i were you. Being you have an auto, atf cooler is a must for you. (automatic trans fluid cooler) You also will need to run synthetic trans fluid, synthetic motor oil too if you didn't already know that.


Sorry, on a scale, I would say getting the manage would come before pistons. What's the point in having pistons with no manage. I'M SURE that putting pistons in would IMMEDIATELY call for a tune that the factory ecu could not handle.

Your one of the few who have just flat out killed a ep3, and my knowledge of both cars. As i have said numerous times, equal drivers, you wouldn't have killed him.

My point with the ep3 and new Si? New Si is quite a bit faster than the previous Si, new Si with a good driver would be hard pressed to keep up with your i/h/e tC. With the supercharger, as i have said before, almost identical times with a stock Si. I'll give you this, the tC with the supercharger could be slightly faster with dead even drivers. But in no way, would the s/c tC smoke or even kill a stock Si. It's amusing how, when the new Si came out and everyone saw the stock Si running low 15's with magizine drivers, the tC stock all of a sudden became a 15.4-15.5 car stock.

I don't know all the Hondaspeak, so EP3? But if you are referring to the Si coupe from the late 90's, I destroyed one last summer with my 05 with 0 power mods. He had an intake and exhaust. And Killer, I do believe somebody here w/ a stock tC did hit a 15.4-- a couple months ago. IMO, the late 90's Civic Si coupe is not aworthy adversary for a stock tC. Not just my .02, just my personal experience.

killer ur retarded all of the S/C I/H/E guys are in the 225-240 range.

the stock exhaust and intake were restrictive with just the NA power, how do think its going to be when trying to push twice the gases through it? Twice the gains you moron.
go ahead and prove me wrong.

U talk soo much about things u know soooo little about.

and seriously this is Scion Life, not Honda life. All you do is under estimate the abilities of a car you dont have, and over estimate the abilities of another you have never owned. If you like them so much better why dont u just get the heck out mister.

bro u might want to sit a few posts out...
or threads for that matter

Hey, this isn't even about turbo's. Stay on topic! :rofl: :rofl: jk.

I am on topic. I said F/I....not just turbo.

killer ur retarded all of the S/C I/H/E guys are in the 225-240 range.

the stock exhaust and intake were restrictive with just the NA power, how do think its going to be when trying to push twice the gases through it? Twice the gains you moron.
go ahead and prove me wrong.

U talk soo much about things u know soooo little about.

and seriously this is Scion Life, not Honda life. All you do is under estimate the abilities of a car you dont have, and over estimate the abilities of another you have never owned. If you like them so much better why dont u just get the heck out mister.

bro u might want to sit a few posts out...
or threads for that matter

Um yeah, show me where i/h/e and s/c dyno that? :loser: No i/h/e set up adds 50whp on f/i or n/a. And you say i talk too much? And yeah, this is scionlife yet this thread is specifically honda vs. toyota, si vs. tC. Deal with it or don't post here.

230whp (doubling stock power output)
6 psi
EVO III GT Big 16g
Tial Wastegate (silver)
Stainless charge piping
4 ply couplers
Stainless Manifold
Pre tapped Oil pan
All fuel and timing tuning already complete
Comes with new oil pan making it a true bolt on kit

i figure that i dont need pistons since it doesnt require them..and i plan to get emanage, zpi's turbo pistons, and since i have an auto their ESK, and a TMIC. exhaust is a must...but thats not really included with a turbo kit, but i plan to get the Draxas. also im gettin a HKS BOV

Then why bother with emanage or any management if the kit doesn't include them? Not trying to be a jerk but you say you don't think you need pistons, but you need management but both aren't included. I'd upgrade the pistons if i were you. Being you have an auto, atf cooler is a must for you. (automatic trans fluid cooler) You also will need to run synthetic trans fluid, synthetic motor oil too if you didn't already know that.


Sorry, on a scale, I would say getting the manage would come before pistons. What's the point in having pistons with no manage. I'M SURE that putting pistons in would IMMEDIATELY call for a tune that the factory ecu could not handle.

I never said do pistons first, i just said i would if i were you. No, pistons shouldn't come first. Management should, you are right. But, both would be wise.

killer ur retarded all of the S/C I/H/E guys are in the 225-240 range.

the stock exhaust and intake were restrictive with just the NA power, how do think its going to be when trying to push twice the gases through it? Twice the gains you moron.
go ahead and prove me wrong.

U talk soo much about things u know soooo little about.

and seriously this is Scion Life, not Honda life. All you do is under estimate the abilities of a car you dont have, and over estimate the abilities of another you have never owned. If you like them so much better why dont u just get the heck out mister.

bro u might want to sit a few posts out...
or threads for that matter


:rofl: :rofl: Now, Now Sensay...play nice. :lalala:

230whp (doubling stock power output)
6 psi
EVO III GT Big 16g
Tial Wastegate (silver)
Stainless charge piping
4 ply couplers
Stainless Manifold
Pre tapped Oil pan
All fuel and timing tuning already complete
Comes with new oil pan making it a true bolt on kit

i figure that i dont need pistons since it doesnt require them..and i plan to get emanage, zpi's turbo pistons, and since i have an auto their ESK, and a TMIC. exhaust is a must...but thats not really included with a turbo kit, but i plan to get the Draxas. also im gettin a HKS BOV

Then why bother with emanage or any management if the kit doesn't include them? Not trying to be a jerk but you say you don't think you need pistons, but you need management but both aren't included. I'd upgrade the pistons if i were you. Being you have an auto, atf cooler is a must for you. (automatic trans fluid cooler) You also will need to run synthetic trans fluid, synthetic motor oil too if you didn't already know that.


Sorry, on a scale, I would say getting the manage would come before pistons. What's the point in having pistons with no manage. I'M SURE that putting pistons in would IMMEDIATELY call for a tune that the factory ecu could not handle.

I never said do pistons first, i just said i would if i were you. No, pistons shouldn't come first. Management should, you are right. But, both would be wise.


But pistons is a BackBurner Mod. You do that mod when your bored and want something different.

EP3 is the previous Si prior to the remodle, not the late 90's by the way.

killer ur retarded all of the S/C I/H/E guys are in the 225-240 range.

the stock exhaust and intake were restrictive with just the NA power, how do think its going to be when trying to push twice the gases through it? Twice the gains you moron.
go ahead and prove me wrong.

U talk soo much about things u know soooo little about.

and seriously this is Scion Life, not Honda life. All you do is under estimate the abilities of a car you dont have, and over estimate the abilities of another you have never owned. If you like them so much better why dont u just get the heck out mister.

bro u might want to sit a few posts out...
or threads for that matter

Um yeah, show me where i/h/e and s/c dyno that? :loser: No i/h/e set up adds 50whp on f/i or n/a. And you say i talk too much? And yeah, this is scionlife yet this thread is specifically honda vs. toyota, si vs. tC. Deal with it or don't post here.

actually your the one that boldly stated an I/H/E S/C tC only has 205whp. YOU show me the dyno graohs to prove me wrong. Some headers alone on NA cars add 50hp dum anus.

another thing the scionspeed kits had problems because they they were of terrible quality not from too much hp.

ho sit down

killer ur retarded all of the S/C I/H/E guys are in the 225-240 range.

the stock exhaust and intake were restrictive with just the NA power, how do think its going to be when trying to push twice the gases through it? Twice the gains you moron.
go ahead and prove me wrong.

U talk soo much about things u know soooo little about.

and seriously this is Scion Life, not Honda life. All you do is under estimate the abilities of a car you dont have, and over estimate the abilities of another you have never owned. If you like them so much better why dont u just get the heck out mister.

bro u might want to sit a few posts out...
or threads for that matter

Forgot to mention sensay, superchargers are belt driven they don't run off exhaust like turbos. So gains are close to what n/a would be, and even with turbo's you don't multiply the gains. :rofl: :rofl:

killer ur retarded all of the S/C I/H/E guys are in the 225-240 range.

the stock exhaust and intake were restrictive with just the NA power, how do think its going to be when trying to push twice the gases through it? Twice the gains you moron.
go ahead and prove me wrong.

U talk soo much about things u know soooo little about.

and seriously this is Scion Life, not Honda life. All you do is under estimate the abilities of a car you dont have, and over estimate the abilities of another you have never owned. If you like them so much better why dont u just get the heck out mister.

bro u might want to sit a few posts out...
or threads for that matter

Um yeah, show me where i/h/e and s/c dyno that? :loser: No i/h/e set up adds 50whp on f/i or n/a. And you say i talk too much? And yeah, this is scionlife yet this thread is specifically honda vs. toyota, si vs. tC. Deal with it or don't post here.

actually your the one that boldly stated an I/H/E S/C tC only has 205whp. YOU show me the dyno graohs to prove me wrong. Some headers alone on NA cars add 50hp dum anus.

another thing the scionspeed kits had problems because they they were of terrible quality not from too much hp.

ho sit down

Show me a header for the tC that does any where near 50whp. :loser: Race header that removes the cat where the oem header is only adds roughly 20whp so says mmw, no header, no 4-2-1, no 4-1, no custom header will give you 50whp alone on a 2az. So "dum anus", quit :blah: like you know something because its obvious you are a newbie.

Someone with a tC with the zpi pulley, supercharger, i/h/e and a few other things had a dyno sheet on scionlife with 233whp. Maybe thats what you are confusing yourself with. We aren't talking about upgrading the pulley, just i/h/e and the supercharger.

killer ur retarded all of the S/C I/H/E guys are in the 225-240 range.

the stock exhaust and intake were restrictive with just the NA power, how do think its going to be when trying to push twice the gases through it? Twice the gains you moron.
go ahead and prove me wrong.

U talk soo much about things u know soooo little about.

and seriously this is Scion Life, not Honda life. All you do is under estimate the abilities of a car you dont have, and over estimate the abilities of another you have never owned. If you like them so much better why dont u just get the heck out mister.

bro u might want to sit a few posts out...
or threads for that matter

Forgot to mention sensay, superchargers are belt driven they don't run off exhaust like turbos. So gains are close to what n/a would be, and even with turbo's you don't multiply the gains. :rofl: :rofl:

You seriously are F'n retarded arent you. If a supercharger forcing twice as much air into an engine, were do u think it goes? According to you it disappears. Actually miraculously just as many gasses are leaving through the exhaust header as gasses entering through the intake manifold. Why do u think turbo cars and cars with bigger motors making big HP have larger exhausts???

No gains are not like NA at all. That would only be the case if there was the same amount of airflow as NA, but actually for a stock S/C tC there is about a 50% increase. With the addition an I/H/E to the supercharger the increase in airflow is about 90% from stock.

Yes some headers alone do infact have the ability to create up to 50hp on a naturally aspirated engine.
Look for example at the results of the HyTech racing header in this civic header shoot-out in TPR Mag. 51 hp
http://www.tprmag.com/issue/10/10_b16_headers.shtml

Go ahead killer, every time you open your mouth ill just expose the stupidity of your statements every time.

SUCKKKKK ITT

SEEEEEEEEEE YAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Someone with a tC with the zpi pulley, supercharger, i/h/e and a few other things had a dyno sheet on scionlife with 233whp. Maybe thats what you are confusing yourself with. We aren't talking about upgrading the pulley, just i/h/e and the supercharger.


Correction...244whp. Stop posting underrated #'s.

Someone with a tC with the zpi pulley, supercharger, i/h/e and a few other things had a dyno sheet on scionlife with 233whp. Maybe thats what you are confusing yourself with. We aren't talking about upgrading the pulley, just i/h/e and the supercharger.


Correction...244whp. Stop posting underrated #'s.

Okay, sorry. 244whp i thought it was 233. Either way, that further proves my point to sensay that i/h/e with supercharger is not 230-240whp or what ever he said.

killer ur retarded all of the S/C I/H/E guys are in the 225-240 range.

the stock exhaust and intake were restrictive with just the NA power, how do think its going to be when trying to push twice the gases through it? Twice the gains you moron.
go ahead and prove me wrong.

U talk soo much about things u know soooo little about.

and seriously this is Scion Life, not Honda life. All you do is under estimate the abilities of a car you dont have, and over estimate the abilities of another you have never owned. If you like them so much better why dont u just get the heck out mister.

bro u might want to sit a few posts out...
or threads for that matter

Forgot to mention sensay, superchargers are belt driven they don't run off exhaust like turbos. So gains are close to what n/a would be, and even with turbo's you don't multiply the gains. :rofl: :rofl:

You seriously are F'n retarded arent you. If a supercharger forcing twice as much air into an engine, were do u think it goes? According to you it disappears. Actually miraculously just as many gasses are leaving through the exhaust header as gasses entering through the intake manifold. Why do u think turbo cars and cars with bigger motors making big HP have larger exhausts???

No gains are not like NA at all. That would only be the case if there was the same amount of airflow as NA, but actually for a stock S/C tC there is about a 50% increase. With the addition an I/H/E to the supercharger the increase in airflow is about 90% from stock.

Yes some headers alone do infact have the ability to create up to 50hp on a naturally aspirated engine.
Look for example at the results of the HyTech racing header in this civic header shoot-out in TPR Mag. 51 hp
http://www.tprmag.com/issue/10/10_b16_headers.shtml

Go ahead killer, every time you open your mouth ill just expose the stupidity of your statements every time.

SUCKKKKK ITT

SEEEEEEEEEE YAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

No, it doesn't just vanish but you can't double the whp from i/h/e on a boosted motor just because its boosted. With a turbo you'll see more of a gain from exhaust with proper piping size than you would with a supercharger. Why? Because a turbo is directly effected, the supercharger isn't. Look at what rythmn wrote, he corrected me, zpi pulley, supercharger, i/h/e pulled 244whp. Go and expose me for that one.

Also, if you read what i said. No header for the 2az pushes 50whp increase. Maybe if i said, not yet. Its very hard to pull 50whp off any header, yeah it can be done but its rare and its hard to do. No header, for the tC delivers 50whp.

killer ur retarded all of the S/C I/H/E guys are in the 225-240 range.

the stock exhaust and intake were restrictive with just the NA power, how do think its going to be when trying to push twice the gases through it? Twice the gains you moron.
go ahead and prove me wrong.

U talk soo much about things u know soooo little about.

and seriously this is Scion Life, not Honda life. All you do is under estimate the abilities of a car you dont have, and over estimate the abilities of another you have never owned. If you like them so much better why dont u just get the heck out mister.

bro u might want to sit a few posts out...
or threads for that matter

Forgot to mention sensay, superchargers are belt driven they don't run off exhaust like turbos. So gains are close to what n/a would be, and even with turbo's you don't multiply the gains. :rofl: :rofl:

You seriously are F'n retarded arent you. If a supercharger forcing twice as much air into an engine, were do u think it goes? According to you it disappears. Actually miraculously just as many gasses are leaving through the exhaust header as gasses entering through the intake manifold. Why do u think turbo cars and cars with bigger motors making big HP have larger exhausts???

No gains are not like NA at all. That would only be the case if there was the same amount of airflow as NA, but actually for a stock S/C tC there is about a 50% increase. With the addition an I/H/E to the supercharger the increase in airflow is about 90% from stock.

Yes some headers alone do infact have the ability to create up to 50hp on a naturally aspirated engine.
Look for example at the results of the HyTech racing header in this civic header shoot-out in TPR Mag. 51 hp
http://www.tprmag.com/issue/10/10_b16_headers.shtml

Go ahead killer, every time you open your mouth ill just expose the stupidity of your statements every time.

SUCKKKKK ITT

SEEEEEEEEEE YAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

No, it doesn't just vanish but you can't double the whp from i/h/e on a boosted motor just because its boosted. With a turbo you'll see more of a gain from exhaust with proper piping size than you would with a supercharger. Why? Because a turbo is directly effected, the supercharger isn't. Look at what rythmn wrote, he corrected me, zpi pulley, supercharger, i/h/e pulled 244whp. Go and expose me for that one.

Also, if you read what i said. No header for the 2az pushes 50whp increase. Maybe if i said, not yet. Its very hard to pull 50whp off any header, yeah it can be done but its rare and its hard to do. No header, for the tC delivers 50whp.

Someone with a tC with the zpi pulley, supercharger, i/h/e and a few other things had a dyno sheet on scionlife with 233whp. Maybe thats what you are confusing yourself with. We aren't talking about upgrading the pulley, just i/h/e and the supercharger.


Correction...244whp. Stop posting underrated #'s.

Okay, sorry. 244whp i thought it was 233. Either way, that further proves my point to sensay that i/h/e with supercharger is not 230-240whp or what ever he said.

actually that further disproves your point. Stupid?

How the hell does that disprove my point? You said, i/h/e and supercharger 240whp. You said nothing about the pulley, you just said i/h/e and supercharger. :loser: :rofl: :rofl:

Also, you might want to do some reading on that 51whp gain and see how they actually came up with 51whp.

killer ur retarded all of the S/C I/H/E guys are in the 225-240 range.

the stock exhaust and intake were restrictive with just the NA power, how do think its going to be when trying to push twice the gases through it? Twice the gains you moron.
go ahead and prove me wrong.

U talk soo much about things u know soooo little about.

and seriously this is Scion Life, not Honda life. All you do is under estimate the abilities of a car you dont have, and over estimate the abilities of another you have never owned. If you like them so much better why dont u just get the heck out mister.

bro u might want to sit a few posts out...
or threads for that matter

Forgot to mention sensay, superchargers are belt driven they don't run off exhaust like turbos. So gains are close to what n/a would be, and even with turbo's you don't multiply the gains. :rofl: :rofl:

You seriously are F'n retarded arent you. If a supercharger forcing twice as much air into an engine, were do u think it goes? According to you it disappears. Actually miraculously just as many gasses are leaving through the exhaust header as gasses entering through the intake manifold. Why do u think turbo cars and cars with bigger motors making big HP have larger exhausts???

No gains are not like NA at all. That would only be the case if there was the same amount of airflow as NA, but actually for a stock S/C tC there is about a 50% increase. With the addition an I/H/E to the supercharger the increase in airflow is about 90% from stock.

Yes some headers alone do infact have the ability to create up to 50hp on a naturally aspirated engine.
Look for example at the results of the HyTech racing header in this civic header shoot-out in TPR Mag. 51 hp
http://www.tprmag.com/issue/10/10_b16_headers.shtml

Go ahead killer, every time you open your mouth ill just expose the stupidity of your statements every time.

SUCKKKKK ITT

SEEEEEEEEEE YAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

No, it doesn't just vanish but you can't double the whp from i/h/e on a boosted motor just because its boosted. With a turbo you'll see more of a gain from exhaust with proper piping size than you would with a supercharger. Why? Because a turbo is directly effected, the supercharger isn't. Look at what rythmn wrote, he corrected me, zpi pulley, supercharger, i/h/e pulled 244whp. Go and expose me for that one.

Also, if you read what i said. No header for the 2az pushes 50whp increase. Maybe if i said, not yet. Its very hard to pull 50whp off any header, yeah it can be done but its rare and its hard to do. No header, for the tC delivers 50whp.

you seriously are very dumb and have no friends. im just going to talk in bullet points because im tired of repeating myself.

* if by replacing the stock manifold an NA engine gains 20hp, then an engine with the same crappy manifold trying to push out twice as much air but is unable to due to the fact that it is still being limited to the stock manifold would create 40hp by replacing the stock manifold with the new header. Reason why is because it is no longer being restricted of its full capabilites.

* u say exhaust upgrades have more effect on turbo cars.
um i dont know if you have noticed this one einstein, but turbo cars dont even have headers. That alone would make it so that its more benifitial for SC'd cars to replace the full exhaust because they have more to replace and the fact that headers are the most crucial component of any exhaust system. :crazy:

* replaceing the turbo manifolds that come in some kits with equal length manifolds alone alot of times make increase of 50hp and this is not to say the manifold that came with the kit was even restrictive. The same idea comes with replacing the factory exhaust manifold on a SC'd car that was not originally SC'd

* Its rare to find headers to make 50hp?
um race headers for high hp cars like dodge vipers and Vetts do it all the time. Did you even look at the link i put in my other post???? A CIVIC did it for gawd's sake. :doh:

* Also all i said was "some headers alone can create 50hp" anywere in that statement did it sound like i was impling to the tC or the 2az? not at all. :doh: LOOK AT YOU! you have resorted to putting words in my mouth NICE MANN!
just because you are loosing an argument doesnt mean you can start puting words in people's mouths.

* you have personaly beaten tCs in autox? nice one buddy. how bout we go out for a race some time.

cya

How the hell does that disprove my point? You said, i/h/e and supercharger 240whp. You said nothing about the pulley, you just said i/h/e and supercharger. :loser: :rofl: :rofl:

Also, you might want to do some reading on that 51whp gain and see how they actually came up with 51whp.

it disproves your point because u uderstated it by 10hp, and how they came up with the 51hp? by using a dyno ofcourse :crazy:

Someone with a tC with the zpi pulley, supercharger, i/h/e and a few other things had a dyno sheet on scionlife with 233whp. Maybe thats what you are confusing yourself with. We aren't talking about upgrading the pulley, just i/h/e and the supercharger.


Correction...244whp. Stop posting underrated #'s.

Okay, sorry. 244whp i thought it was 233. Either way, that further proves my point to sensay that i/h/e with supercharger is not 230-240whp or what ever he said.

How does that prove your point. That dyno was with S/C, i/h/e. Well, it might have had the ZPI pulley. But that's a good gain for a low cost pulley. If it was only i/h/e, then I think average dyno's are somewhere in the ball park of 210-220whp. Still higher than any #'s you have posted that the S/C has been putting down. You need to research a little more, cause you are always off by a good amount, and usually on the low side.

EP3 is the previous Si prior to the remodle, not the late 90's by the way.

My understanding is that this si was not as quick as the coupe that came before it. Magazines like Sport Compact Car and Car and Driver really knocked this generation si. I never raced one, but I drove one, an 03 with about 30k on the odom. I used this car for a day when my s/c was being installed. All I can say is that my 05 tC w/ 0 power mods felt a lot quicker than than the Civic si.

Killerx is a honda fanboy who happens to think that his xB is an autocross beast. With the amount of time he spends on here, imagine how much he must spend on his honda fanboy sites? Get a life, outside of your lame ___ xB and your pathetic excuse for a musical career.

O SNHAPS

Sarcastic attacks on another's character.
Sarcastic attackson another's character, relative to vehicles that you yourself don't own.
Sarcastic assumptions about the lack of life that another has.
Assinine logic to reinforce those assumptions.
Implications that your car is superior.


You, my friend, captain Jimmy, fall under a special category called, "Rabid fan boy."

I dont know if this has been mentioned but i really dont feel like reading the whole thread, but last time i was lookin at the si the compression ration was 11:1 now to me that is ____y right there, now i know we are not talkin about turbos or what not but we are talkin about going aftermarket and i know for a fact if i want to go FI i do not want a compression ratio of 11:1 and that is a plus for the tC only being at 9.6:1 because you can get away with pushin about 7-10 psi safly. I was readin modified mag because the front cover had two si's and they were turboed so i thought good maybe they will make something for the new si's that will help it keep up with a turboed tC. and when i looked they both switched the pistons to i believe 8.5:1 i mean granted 11:1 is good for na but most kids these days are lookin for a turbo, We can all thank the fast and the furious for that one but i beleive that the tc is a better format to take to aftermarket upgrades then the 06 civic si.

^^Good observation.

But it's been noted.

The performance K20 blocks can handle up to 7 or so psi easily, I think. At that level they'll be making close to what the tC would make at that level because of their high compression.

The problem with this logic is that for high boost, the stock pistons are rubbish. High boost on the 2AZ will necessitate new pistons so the stock compression's boostability will be for naught. Granted, the K20 will need new pistons before the 2AZ does, they'll both require new pistons for 15+ psi. The good thing about the 2AZ is that it'll probably do ok on 12 psi + safe tune, still beat on STis from rolls, and will handily defeat, in a straightline, a K20 on 12 psi and boost-suitable pistons.

Hm you guys are all teaming up on killerromancex while granted i dont agree with him on some points its more then clear you guys are teaming up on him and twisting his words around. Disagree with the guy, dont attack him.

about the si not handling boost btw I thought the same thing for a while with the 8:1 pistons being a standard on fi cars. However thats stock. Most companies go with that for safety. A person that knows what he/she is doing can boost 11:1 in fact drag racers use that set up all the time. Given you will need a a very good tune with a stand alone and most likely racing fuel or retarding on timing.. Other then that its good to go.

Almost all K series motors can handle up to 7.5-8psi easily, after that you have to lower the compression and do quite a bit of internal changes due to the design of the motors. High compression is great for n/a build ups, not f/i. It hasn't been brought up, but its pretty much a given.

I'm a fan boy only because i don't think the tC can do more than what it actually can. I'm also a fan boy because i don't own a tC and have owned a honda in the past. Makes no sense, but i guess thats what makes sense on these threads.

Also, when i have i ever said my car was beast in autocross? Never. I win 6 of 8 events last year, so sorry i'm a good driver and know how to control my car.

Someone with a tC with the zpi pulley, supercharger, i/h/e and a few other things had a dyno sheet on scionlife with 233whp. Maybe thats what you are confusing yourself with. We aren't talking about upgrading the pulley, just i/h/e and the supercharger.


Correction...244whp. Stop posting underrated #'s.

Okay, sorry. 244whp i thought it was 233. Either way, that further proves my point to sensay that i/h/e with supercharger is not 230-240whp or what ever he said.

How does that prove your point. That dyno was with S/C, i/h/e. Well, it might have had the ZPI pulley. But that's a good gain for a low cost pulley. If it was only i/h/e, then I think average dyno's are somewhere in the ball park of 210-220whp. Still higher than any #'s you have posted that the S/C has been putting down. You need to research a little more, cause you are always off by a good amount, and usually on the low side.

I've been off once or twice, and when i'm off if i'm corrected i'll realize that. If you think you have around 220whp with i/h/e and the s/c, you might want to do more research. You think i'm too high, yet most of your ball park figures are pretty high.

Sensay; That 51whp gain wasn't used on a full exhaust, when the company/website did all the testing they asked that company that made the header what their thoughts were if they ran the header on a full exhaust, if gains would be similar. They had no comment as to if they would or wouldn't. You can gain signficant whp on a header if you run straight header or non-full exhaust.

On your link they say this...

Given the design of the pipe (essentially a long test pipe or straightpipe) and the fact that the tests were conducted pragmatically and without bias, we wondered if it might be possible that the header wouldn't make as much power if attached to a complete exhaust system. When we brought all of this information and the dyno charts to our peers and a few industry tuners, however, they all had different opinions...

A straight pipe, thats not even a full exhaust so the gains with an actual full exhaust would probably be more in the 25-35whp, 35whp being at most.

On your link they say this...

Given the design of the pipe (essentially a long test pipe or straightpipe) and the fact that the tests were conducted pragmatically and without bias, we wondered if it might be possible that the header wouldn't make as much power if attached to a complete exhaust system. When we brought all of this information and the dyno charts to our peers and a few industry tuners, however, they all had different opinions...

A straight pipe, thats not even a full exhaust so the gains with an actual full exhaust would probably be more in the 25-35whp, 35whp being at most.

killer you are wrong.

The the stock header was tested in the same exact way as all the other headers. The only diffrence being the hytech header created 51hp, and the others didnt. The header was not connected to full exhaust, but neither was the factory manifold when they did their base run. Thats 51hp over the base with just the header. Dont u dare give me that bull that if it had a full exhaust it would have been just 22hp. The other headers had gains in the 20-30 range, according to u haveing a full exhust takes away like 20 hp. That means replacing a header in a b16 only creats like 5hp. Seriously killer ur retarded. All of the exhaust after the header isnt that restrictive at all, and if done right, the losses would only be around 3-5hp 10 at the very very most.

All of the headers were tested the same, and keep in mind this is on a tiny lil civic motor.

Like i have already said cars with bigger engines make these kind of gains all the time.

about the whole compression thing... All it means is it would be alot cheaper and easier to have a 370hp tC than a 370hp SI

On your link they say this...

Given the design of the pipe (essentially a long test pipe or straightpipe) and the fact that the tests were conducted pragmatically and without bias, we wondered if it might be possible that the header wouldn't make as much power if attached to a complete exhaust system. When we brought all of this information and the dyno charts to our peers and a few industry tuners, however, they all had different opinions...

A straight pipe, thats not even a full exhaust so the gains with an actual full exhaust would probably be more in the 25-35whp, 35whp being at most.

you are completely false.

the header actually WAS connected to a full exhaust. All of the headers were tested the same, and dont forget this is on a lil civic motor.
Like i have already said cars with bigger engines make these kind of gains all the time.

about the whole compression thing... All it means is it would be alot cheaper and easier to have a 370hp tC than a 370hp SI

Have you actually seen a test pipe? Its not a complete exhaust, its black and white in front of you, "we wondered if it might be possible that the header wouldn't make as much power if attached to a complete exhaust system." and you are still going to argue with me?

Your ego gets in the way, i'm pulling information off a site you gave everyone to disprove me.

On your link they say this...

Given the design of the pipe (essentially a long test pipe or straightpipe) and the fact that the tests were conducted pragmatically and without bias, we wondered if it might be possible that the header wouldn't make as much power if attached to a complete exhaust system. When we brought all of this information and the dyno charts to our peers and a few industry tuners, however, they all had different opinions...

A straight pipe, thats not even a full exhaust so the gains with an actual full exhaust would probably be more in the 25-35whp, 35whp being at most.

you are completely false.

the header actually WAS connected to a full exhaust. All of the headers were tested the same, and dont forget this is on a lil civic motor.
Like i have already said cars with bigger engines make these kind of gains all the time.

about the whole compression thing... All it means is it would be alot cheaper and easier to have a 370hp tC than a 370hp SI

Have you actually seen a test pipe? Its not a complete exhaust, its black and white in front of you, "we wondered if it might be possible that the header wouldn't make as much power if attached to a complete exhaust system." and you are still going to argue with me?

Your ego gets in the way, i'm pulling information off a site you gave everyone to disprove me.

ARE U KIDDING ME?
u need to look at my post more carfully, and quote me right next time, REAL MATURE KILLER

You changed your post to make me look like a jerk, nice. I can do that too you know, but i'm not childish like you either apparently. :clap:

On your link they say this...

Given the design of the pipe (essentially a long test pipe or straightpipe) and the fact that the tests were conducted pragmatically and without bias, we wondered if it might be possible that the header wouldn't make as much power if attached to a complete exhaust system. When we brought all of this information and the dyno charts to our peers and a few industry tuners, however, they all had different opinions...

A straight pipe, thats not even a full exhaust so the gains with an actual full exhaust would probably be more in the 25-35whp, 35whp being at most.

killer you are wrong.

The the stock header was tested in the same exact way as all the other headers. The only diffrence being the hytech header created 51hp, and the others didnt. The header was not connected to full exhaust, but neither was the factory manifold when they did their base run. Thats 51hp over the base with just the header. Dont u dare give me that bull that if it had a full exhaust it would have been just 22hp. The other headers had gains in the 20-30 range, according to u haveing a full exhust takes away like 20 hp. That means replacing a header in a b16 only creats like 5hp. Seriously killer ur retarded. All of the exhaust after the header isnt that restrictive at all, and if done right, the losses would only be around 3-5hp 10 at the very very most.

All of the headers were tested the same, and keep in mind this is on a tiny lil civic motor.

Like i have already said cars with bigger engines make these kind of gains all the time.

about the whole compression thing... All it means is it would be alot cheaper and easier to have a 370hp tC than a 370hp SI

^^^^this is what i said looser^^^ :loser:

On your link they say this...

Given the design of the pipe (essentially a long test pipe or straightpipe) and the fact that the tests were conducted pragmatically and without bias, we wondered if it might be possible that the header wouldn't make as much power if attached to a complete exhaust system. When we brought all of this information and the dyno charts to our peers and a few industry tuners, however, they all had different opinions...

A straight pipe, thats not even a full exhaust so the gains with an actual full exhaust would probably be more in the 25-35whp, 35whp being at most.

killer you are wrong.

The the stock header was tested in the same exact way as all the other headers. The only diffrence being the hytech header created 51hp, and the others didnt. The header was not connected to full exhaust, but neither was the factory manifold when they did their base run. Thats 51hp over the base with just the header. Dont u dare give me that bull that if it had a full exhaust it would have been just 22hp. The other headers had gains in the 20-30 range, according to u haveing a full exhust takes away like 20 hp. That means replacing a header in a b16 only creats like 5hp. Seriously killer ur retarded. All of the exhaust after the header isnt that restrictive at all, and if done right, the losses would only be around 3-5hp 10 at the very very most.

All of the headers were tested the same, and keep in mind this is on a tiny lil civic motor.

Like i have already said cars with bigger engines make these kind of gains all the time.

about the whole compression thing... All it means is it would be alot cheaper and easier to have a 370hp tC than a 370hp SI

Quoting your modified post now, your arguing with someone who has more experience with hondas than any other car. The stock exhaust on any honda 4cyl is quite damn restrictive, especially factory B16 cars. Virtually all cars on the market has pretty restrictive exahaust systems from the factory.

You changed your post to make me look like a jerk, nice. I can do that too you know, but i'm not childish like you either apparently. :clap:

wtf? dont try to play that off i didnt change anything quote me right next time thats all :loser:

Thats bs and you know it. And you still can't even get your facts straight after changing your post.

20whp average? Ha, okay go back to your retarded link that proves me wrong. All the headers were tested on a test pipe at first, then went back over on base runs. Majority of all with test pipe except spoon and hytech rated at 10-14hp increase. :loser:

Further more, second page. "HyTech - Test Set 02
This time around, the HyTech unit made about 3-5 additional horsepower between 3400-4300rpm, then slowly produced more power over stock from about 6300rpm to redline. In all other areas of the graph, the power gain was negligible. Peak power production rose from 160.4hp to 168.5hp.

Spoon - Test Set 02
The Spoon header made the powerband react much in the same way as the HyTech; a small increase around 4000rpm, followed by negligible gains until 6000rpm, where it produced an increasing amount of power all the way through redline. No other area under the curve was affected significantly, and the peak power rating rose 5.7hp to top off at 166.1hp.

Greddy - TEST SET 02
Greddy's offering also showed little to no change under the curve, with the exception of a small dip (1-2hp) between 5000-6000rpm. The entire powerband seems to have stayed the same with the exception of the increase of maximum horsepower, topping the graph out at for an increase of 2.9hp. peak horsepower, raising the maximum rating to 163.3hp.

WeaponR - TEST SET 02
From the start of the sample to the VTEC actuation point around 5600rpm, the WeaponR powerband remained unchanged from the baseline. At VTEC actuation, there was a 2-3 hp loss that steadily decreased until about 6500rpm. From there, the WeaponR unit made increasingly more power until it's peak rating at 164.9hp.

DC Sports : 4-2-1 - TEST SET 02
The first of the DC units showed negligible change to the power curve until about 7000rpm. From there until redline, the unit managed an additional 2-3hp over the baseline, ending with a 163.9hp max rating.

DC Sports : 4-1 - TEST SET 02
The DC 4-1 unit showed negligible changes from the start of the sample until about 4800rpm. There, a slight dip occured (but we should note that it was only evident on this median graph; other graphs showed an essential overlay from the baseline run.) Just after VTEC, the power curve dipped slightly and then picked up from about 6700rpm to redline, for a final peak horsepower gain of 4.6hp."

On your link they say this...

Given the design of the pipe (essentially a long test pipe or straightpipe) and the fact that the tests were conducted pragmatically and without bias, we wondered if it might be possible that the header wouldn't make as much power if attached to a complete exhaust system. When we brought all of this information and the dyno charts to our peers and a few industry tuners, however, they all had different opinions...

A straight pipe, thats not even a full exhaust so the gains with an actual full exhaust would probably be more in the 25-35whp, 35whp being at most.

killer you are wrong.

The the stock header was tested in the same exact way as all the other headers. The only diffrence being the hytech header created 51hp, and the others didnt. The header was not connected to full exhaust, but neither was the factory manifold when they did their base run. Thats 51hp over the base with just the header. Dont u dare give me that bull that if it had a full exhaust it would have been just 22hp. The other headers had gains in the 20-30 range, according to u haveing a full exhust takes away like 20 hp. That means replacing a header in a b16 only creats like 5hp. Seriously killer ur retarded. All of the exhaust after the header isnt that restrictive at all, and if done right, the losses would only be around 3-5hp 10 at the very very most.

All of the headers were tested the same, and keep in mind this is on a tiny lil civic motor.

Like i have already said cars with bigger engines make these kind of gains all the time.

about the whole compression thing... All it means is it would be alot cheaper and easier to have a 370hp tC than a 370hp SI

Quoting your modified post now, your arguing with someone who has more experience with hondas than any other car. The stock exhaust on any honda 4cyl is quite damn restrictive, especially factory B16 cars. Virtually all cars on the market has pretty restrictive exahaust systems from the factory.

modifeid post? are u kidding me?thats the ONLY post !:loser:

look buddy when u replace I/H/E u dont just stop at header. after u put on the right exhaust system, the restriction would be just about gone, and the gains would be right back up there at around 45hp from the original 51hp this is not even counting the gains from intake

Why would i modify your unknowledgable post just to correct you once again?

Look at the base line dyno results. One was done to wheels, other done to crank. The first testing showed on a test pipe, the next page shows crank results of an average 4-5hp gain. I/h/e on a B16 with typical 4-1, cai/sri and cat back will deliver around 13-15whp overall. Okay, not 51whp. But your knowledge, all these header's paired with i/e would deliver 30whp+, majority aren't true race headers just testing average header's.

Your all talk and you can't shut your mouth when you are wrong. You have to continue keep going believing you are right, changing your post and you still don't know what you are talking about.

Call me a fan boy all you want, at least i know what i'm talking about.

Your all talk and you can't shut your mouth when you are wrong. You have to continue keep going believing you are right, changing your post and you still don't know what you are talking about.

Call me a fan boy all you want, at least i know what i'm talking about.

hey atleast i dont go resorting to immature tactics such as mis quoting you to try and make u look stupid, and apparently i know what im talking about much more than you do :doh:

all you do is under estimate the cappabilites of the tC because your jealous you could only afford the "slow scion" You say that you didnt buy the box to be fast and would have bought a tC if you wanted, but really? If that was the case YOU WOULDNT GO AROUND TRYING TO DRIVE FAST AUTOXING YOUR SLOW BOX!!

cya sucka
p.s. i beat SI's all day long (not the new ones)

Your all talk and you can't shut your mouth when you are wrong. You have to continue keep going believing you are right, changing your post and you still don't know what you are talking about.

Call me a fan boy all you want, at least i know what i'm talking about.

hey atleast i dont go resorting to immature tactics such as mis quoting you to try and make u look stupid, and apparently i know what im talking about much more than you do :doh:

all you do is under estimate the cappabilites of the tC because your jealous you could only afford the "slow scion" You say that you didnt buy the box to be fast and would have bought a tC if you wanted, but really? If that was the case YOU WOULDNT GO AROUND TRYING TO DRIVE FAST AUTOXING YOUR SLOW BOX!!

cya sucka
p.s. i beat SI's all day long (not the new ones)

Sure, i prove you wrong with everything on that website and you resort going back to the original idea of this entire thread. You are the most immature person on here, you and i both know you changed the hell out of your post and i still disproved everything you had. :loser:

You obviously don't know the first thing about autocross because 1/4 mile times have zero reflection on autocross or road courses. I wouldn't have bought a tC if i wanted because its not for me. Yeah you beat Si's all day long, just like i/h/e yeilds 30whp+? :loser:

Stay on topic guys...this is about the SI vs. the S/C tC.

yep, years ago us older guys would sit around the cave, and using hierogliphics, would bang out "Vega vs Pinto" arguments all day long ( heck, what else could we do-- we didn't have fire yet )...... but we'd still be civil about it...

you guys all have your points, but whether right or wrong, this thread gets so damn personal that us out here just reading for info can get turned off by the slamming back and forth. I'll agree everyone deserves his opinion, but this does get pretty deep at times.

maybe call it a draw, and move on to another thread. And when guys this summer start running the 2 cars, then you can bring this back on with some real numbers...
just .02 from the grey hair crowd...

Your all talk and you can't shut your mouth when you are wrong. You have to continue keep going believing you are right, changing your post and you still don't know what you are talking about.

Call me a fan boy all you want, at least i know what i'm talking about.

hey atleast i dont go resorting to immature tactics such as mis quoting you to try and make u look stupid, and apparently i know what im talking about much more than you do :doh:

all you do is under estimate the cappabilites of the tC because your jealous you could only afford the "slow scion" You say that you didnt buy the box to be fast and would have bought a tC if you wanted, but really? If that was the case YOU WOULDNT GO AROUND TRYING TO DRIVE FAST AUTOXING YOUR SLOW BOX!!

cya sucka
p.s. i beat SI's all day long (not the new ones)

Sure, i prove you wrong with everything on that website and you resort going back to the original idea of this entire thread. You are the most immature person on here, you and i both know you changed the hell out of your post and i still disproved everything you had. :loser:

You obviously don't know the first thing about autocross because 1/4 mile times have zero reflection on autocross or road courses. I wouldn't have bought a tC if i wanted because its not for me. Yeah you beat Si's all day long, just like i/h/e yeilds 30whp+? :loser:

you proved wrong everything i had? ok buddy i dont recall u disproving one thing. i/h/e does yield 30+ hp are u retarded?

no worries my new autometer d-pic will be on the way soon and ill be showing you exactly what my tC can do. 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times, and your favorite lateral G's for the good ole autoX. Sure it can do much more but this all im gonna need to shut u up.

killerx, you care to explain to us how your car is so much better handling than a tC with stock wheels and tires? Last I checked, the grip on those makes a cobalt look like a porsche.

yep, years ago us older guys would sit around the cave, and using hierogliphics, would bang out "Vega vs Pinto" arguments all day long ( heck, what else could we do-- we didn't have fire yet )...... but we'd still be civil about it...

you guys all have your points, but whether right or wrong, this thread gets so damn personal that us out here just reading for info can get turned off by the slamming back and forth. I'll agree everyone deserves his opinion, but this does get pretty deep at times.

maybe call it a draw, and move on to another thread. And when guys this summer start running the 2 cars, then you can bring this back on with some real numbers...
just .02 from the grey hair crowd...

yeah maybe your right... and hey! stop acting like your all old. I really like reading your comments because you seem to speak from the heart wuth true wizdom and real insight

even if you were in your 60's you would still be young at heart for being on this site and posting in these forums.

not old, middle aged at best buddy. Dont beat yourself up over a number.
Doesnt really matter, were all family here. Well most of us atleast...

killerx, you care to explain to us how your car is so much better handling than a tC with stock wheels and tires? Last I checked, the grip on those makes a cobalt look like a porsche.

MAGIC!! :rofl:

sensay--thx for the words. Yeah, not quite 60's yet-- 44 in a couple weeks. That's like an average age-- my body creaks and cracks like it's 60, I act like I'm a teen, so 44 is an average.

I do speak from experience, but hope i never preach much; and i'll even admit i have learned quite a bit from this site, even from "you know who".... jk

Plus you know what they say about family--there's a black sheep in every one... sorry killerx, the meds are kicking in; couldn't resist it. All said in humor....

I say if you all can keep up the debate about the cars yet keep them enjoyable for all parties, then let her rip. But as I've said before, love them or loathe them, these are just cars. Much more important things in life to get the blood boiling then these things. And hey, if an SI beats me this summer? Congrats. There's more on the horizon then one race...

sensay--thx for the words. Yeah, not quite 60's yet-- 44 in a couple weeks. That's like an average age-- my body creaks and cracks like it's 60, I act like I'm a teen, so 44 is an average.

I do speak from experience, but hope i never preach much; and i'll even admit i have learned quite a bit from this site, even from "you know who".... jk

Plus you know what they say about family--there's a black sheep in every one... sorry killerx, the meds are kicking in; couldn't resist it. All said in humor....

I say if you all can keep up the debate about the cars yet keep them enjoyable for all parties, then let her rip. But as I've said before, love them or loathe them, these are just cars. Much more important things in life to get the blood boiling then these things. And hey, if an SI beats me this summer? Congrats. There's more on the horizon then one race...

nicely said brutha

Okay, if anyone believes what sensay wrote after what he said, what he did (changed his post, regardless of what he says) and after i still proved him wrong using his same link. Go ahead, believe him. Because the story would be completely different if i owned a tC and everyone knows it.

This thread is bs now, everyone mixes my words around to get what they want out of my post. Say i'm wrong, say i don't know what i'm talking about, but have fun with i/h/e that delivers 30whp+ on the tC wait..Being that this b16 apparently has 51whp, and by your displacement theory, all dyno's must be off and i must know nothing because the tC by that would have easy 60whp off i/h/e. Yep, i'm the one everyone goes to on this thread because i own a box. Great call, easy target i agree since everyone else drives a tC. Good way to be open minded, since its impossible to have knowledge of a car that you don't own. What do you know about any other car out there. After all, you own a tC and and most of you thats all you own. Ignorance.

Have fun on this thread, i know you guys are going to have some party agreeing the tC is some car that can beat tons of cars because they have less torque, all that torque must be getting to your head.

another 14 page thread down the drain.

Let's try to play nice in the sandbox from now on.

LOCKED.