http://www.satpro.tv/images/tc.jpg

Hi everyone, for those of you that don’t remember me I was the guy using the Haltech computer for the scion. Just waned to tell you all that the Haltech did not work on the scion at all. We test 2 different Haltechs and nothing good came out of it. (E8 and the E11v2). Yes we wasted our time and money on that garbage. We are going with an AEM computer; we should have it next week. Anyway we decided to take the scion back to stock computer and take it to the dyno.
We did 260rwhp @ 6lb of boost, we measure the fuel/air ratio with a wide band oxygen sensor and some other devices and in my scion tc I was running lean anyware above 6lb of boost. If I get some time I will provide a copy of the dyno sheet tomorrow.

Rick C.

wow RWHP, on a FWD car :P

no way you got 260whp on 6 pounds of boost

Yeah, I was waiting for that too. You might be seeing 240 BHP at that, with a decent tune. Maybe 260 BHYeah, I was waiting for that too. You might be seeing 240 BHP at that, with a decent tune. Maybe 260 BHP with the intercooler. But untill I see it I wont believe those numbers. The thing is the dyno numbers could be from a different car or even just plain incorrect. Get it running and show us some time slips and I will believe you.

huuum, you are more than welcome to see it for your self. I live in Miami Fl. My tc will be at the scion exposed 2.0 show this Saturday in the Dolphins Stadium in a booth call shining monkey if you want to take a look at it. I will have the dyno there for you.

Rick C.

And people wonder why people never want to post details of their setups here. I knew nothing good would come out of this. He was just showing his setup ,which was custom built. Just because its not a particular kit built by a know company like Turbonetics or Dezod, it didn't make good numbers? Typical scionlife. RWHP means Real Wheel Horse Power for those who don't use the term.he's running a GT35R so its easy to hit that number on low boost. That turbo is good for over 30psi. My friend is running the same turbo on his Evo with alky injection pushing 30psi.

And people wonder why people never want to post details of their setups here. I knew nothing good would come out of this. He was just showing his setup ,which was custom built. Just because its not a particular kit, it didn't make good numbers? Typical scionlife. RWHP means Real Wheel Horse Power for those who don't use the term.he's running a GT35R so its easy to hit that number on low boost. That turbo is good for over 30psi. My friend is running the same turbo on his Evo with alky injection pushing 30psi.

Munch is absolutely correct....6 psi on a GT35R is a lot diff than 6 psi on a 16g or on a T3/T4....Hey, you talkin about Vinny's EVO :love: Tell that slacker to come out tonight...I havent seen his a$$ in a minute

And people wonder why people never want to post details of their setups here. I knew nothing good would come out of this. He was just showing his setup ,which was custom built. Just because its not a particular kit, it didn't make good numbers? Typical scionlife. RWHP means Real Wheel Horse Power for those who don't use the term.he's running a GT35R so its easy to hit that number on low boost. That turbo is good for over 30psi. My friend is running the same turbo on his Evo with alky injection pushing 30psi.

Munch is absolutely correct....6 psi on a GT35R is a lot diff than 6 psi on a 16g or on a T3/T4....Hey, you talkin about Vinny's EVO :love: Tell that slacker to come out tonight...I havent seen his a$$ in a minute

Yeah Big Vin's built EVO. The car is a monster period. Scares the crap outta me everythime I go for a ride in it :shock: :eyes: . I'll see if he will come out, but I doubt it.

^^Well, everywhere I have ever seen it is is REAR WHEEL HP. So that is the common definition of the acronym.

second, no one put down his setup. But those numbers blow away anything I have seen on the tC for 6lbs of boost. You are talking about an increase of 6 psi (approx 40%) creating a HP increase of approx 62% on a stock ECU that is leaning out just above 6psi, so not even an optimal tune for boost to start with. Even with an intercooler that is hard to swallow without hard proof.

To the original poster, I think it is a nice setup and am not bashing it. I just have a hard time with those figures.

And other than efficiency, the amount of boost is the same for either turbo, so you arent gaining THAT much between the two other than that and a better power curve, which will definitely mean better track performance, but will still yeild the same peak power on the dyno, again other than the efficiency differences.

^^Well, everywhere I have ever seen it is is REAR WHEEL HP. So that is the common definition of the acronym.

I guess you learn something new everyday then :P .

second, no one put down his setup. But those numbers blow away anything I have seen on the tC for 6lbs of boost. You are talking about an increase of 6 psi (approx 40%) creating a HP increase of approx 62% on a stock ECU that is leaning out just above 6psi, so not even an optimal tune for boost to start with. Even with an intercooler that is hard to swallow without hard proof.

To the original poster, I think it is a nice setup and am not bashing it. I just have a hard time with those figures.

Read up on the GT35R and you will see how it puts down big numbers so easy :bow: .

It's not my car so it really doesn't matter. He has a nice setup and I applaud him :clap:

And other than efficiency, the amount of boost is the same for either turbo, so you arent gaining THAT much between the two other than that and a better power curve, which will definitely mean better track performance, but will still yeild the same peak power on the dyno, again other than the efficiency differences.
soooo....theoretically speaking your saying that a T20 at 6 psi is gonna yield similar results to a GT35 running at 6 psi cause its the same psi and theres not gonna be that much difference in the power output other than power delivery??

:doh: :doh: :doh:
I think Im already done with this thread

I too applaud him for the setup.

But I hate to inform you, but physics dont easilly bend. If two turbos produce the same amount of boost then there are two main factors that can make one better than the other: efficiency and the range of the power curve.

The first will have effect on the peak power, the second will have NO effect on the peak power, but will have the effect you are looking for: performance. So yes, a turbo that spools sooner and provides a wider band of power will walk off from one that produces a shorter power band. But on the dyno you will still see the same peak power.

Once the boost is introduced to the manifold, it does not care what turbo it came from. The only thing it sees is the restrictive losses from the turbo (part of the efficiency), the temp of the incoming charge (again an effect of efficiency and intercooling method) and the A/F mixture regulated by the ECU (which is less than optimal given what he told us). So please, if you can explain your point, do so other than saying "That turbo is awesome and puts out big numbers". We are having a technical discussion here, so please address it with numbers and the physics behind it if you have an argument. If you have a valid point I will not hesitate to agree, I am not trying to start a pi$$ing contest. If there is a VAST difference in efficiency between it and the others being used currently then it could make the difference. But even then you have to take into account the points he made about the tuning.

Again, I am not bashing at all. I think it is a cool setup, but we all know that dyno's can be way off at times (just look at some of the numbers and the timeslips from the same car). I dont doubt at all it performs well, and will perfrom very well once he gets the proper tuning in place. I also look forward to seeing the progress from him.

So is he saying that a fire hose will displace the same amount of water as a garden hose if the water flowed at the same psi?

And other than efficiency, the amount of boost is the same for either turbo, so you arent gaining THAT much between the two other than that and a better power curve, which will definitely mean better track performance, but will still yeild the same peak power on the dyno, again other than the efficiency differences.
soooo....theoretically speaking your saying that a T20 at 6 psi is gonna yield similar results to a GT35 running at 6 psi cause its the same psi and theres not gonna be that much difference in the power output other than power delivery??

:doh: :doh: :doh:
I think Im already done with this thread

No that is not what I said.. please read all of my posts.

I posted while you were typing all that...

Sure efficiency plays a huge role in this, which is why Paul and I spent so much time on our kit. But CFM is just as important as PSI on a turbo. It comes down to how efficient the boost is coming in, and the shear volume of air can greatly affect your hp numbers.

A larger turbo naturally has higher CFM and TYPICALLY produces higher peak hp numbers, even though it may not be the fastes setup at the drags or road race course. Finding a turbo that has the widest power band possible, and still offering enough peak hp to pull on the straights is key.

I too applaud him for the setup.

But I hate to inform you, but physics dont easilly bend. If two turbos produce the same amount of boost then there are two main factors that can make one better than the other: efficiency and the range of the power curve.

The first will have effect on the peak power, the second will have NO effect on the peak power, but will have the effect you are looking for: performance. So yes, a turbo that spools sooner and provides a wider band of power will walk off from one that produces a shorter power band. But on the dyno you will still see the same peak power.

Once the boost is introduced to the manifold, it does not care what turbo it came from. The only thing it sees is the restrictive losses from the turbo (part of the efficiency), the temp of the incoming charge (again an effect of efficiency and intercooling method) and the A/F mixture regulated by the ECU (which is less than optimal given what he told us). So please, if you can explain your point, do so other than saying "That turbo is awesome and puts out big numbers". We are having a technical discussion here, so please address it with numbers and the physics behind it if you have an argument. If you have a valid point I will not hesitate to agree, I am not trying to start a pi$$ing contest. If there is a VAST difference in efficiency between it and the others being used currently then it could make the difference. But even then you have to take into account the points he made about the tuning.

Again, I am not bashing at all. I think it is a cool setup, but we all know that dyno's can be way off at times (just look at some of the numbers and the timeslips from the same car). I dont doubt at all it performs well, and will perfrom very well once he gets the proper tuning in place. I also look forward to seeing the progress from him.


You are forgetting about the amount of air a turbo flows as well.

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Nice looking setup, congrats if you really got 260whp on 6 lbs of boost. Sorry you could not get the Haltech to work, the are actually some of the best aftermarket ECU's out there

Mmm i need to get a turbo... haha

i wanna join in this chat lol

^^ Point well taken on the volume. My concern is that with the small amount of boost and the bigger issue (from what it sounds from his post) of tuning in this case it makes it hard to believe it is producing that amount of power. Again, I could be fooled, but anyone that knows me knows I dont take any numbers without a grain of salt :P

The gt35r is a very efficient unit from what I know of it, so that will give it a big advantage.

But, I dont evey argue to make enemies, and those that get pi$$ed at me for aguing.. .well, grow up :) I also always make it clear that I am not putting someone down or bashing them. But I can state my opinion and either find out I am right or learn something new by being proven wrong. Either is fine with me.

thanks for the input joe

I do agree that the tuning can make all the difference in the world. When we started tuning we started at -12 degrees and ran a 10:1 AFR. We made just over 200whp. As soon as we added a degree of timing it would go up VERY quickly, 5-10hp per degree of timing. We left things at -3 to -5 depending on boost, and ran a 12 for an afr and now we're pushing 271whp and 292wtq.

My only concern on the kit is engine management.

post the dyno when u get the chance man.

I do agree that the tuning can make all the difference in the world. When we started tuning we started at -12 degrees and ran a 10:1 AFR. We made just over 200whp. As soon as we added a degree of timing it would go up VERY quickly, 5-10hp per degree of timing. We left things at -3 to -5 depending on boost, and ran a 12 for an afr and now we're pushing 271whp and 292wtq.

My only concern on the kit is engine management.

Very nice. What kind of boost are you running again? Also.. when you gonna be setting me up as as test car? :P Sorry if I am highjacking.. just a quick question

I dont see why those numbers could not be reached. Especially if the car is running slightly on the lean side. Leaner is meaner. It might lead to high combustion temps and detonation, that would cause the ecu to pull timing, but the more you lean the car out, the more power it is going to make.

A SAFE tune might not produce as good of horsepower numbers.

I'd be interested to see the Air Fuel chart with the car on the stock ECU at even 6psi. Some people say that its a safe way to run the car but I would like to see the graph since no one has posted one.

Charles

Whats up TurboCustomsz, I have not talk to you for awhile and I have the exhaust manifold gasket I promise you, call me latter.

Guys Im not trying to hide anything, my setup was put out long time ago and I did not think it was necessary to do that again.

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=96694&highlight=

I don’t have time to get into the discussion of why a GT35R and a t20 perform different at x amount of boost but take this in consideration.
1. The technology in the 2 different turbos is night and day.
2. Look at the map different and look at the hp each turbo makes, don’t forget the price!!
3. I have a large intercooler and a 3” exhaust all mandrel bend.

Every little thing makes difference; I don’t have a t20 so I can not tell you the hp a t20 will do in my setup.

Rick C.

I do agree that the tuning can make all the difference in the world. When we started tuning we started at -12 degrees and ran a 10:1 AFR. We made just over 200whp. As soon as we added a degree of timing it would go up VERY quickly, 5-10hp per degree of timing. We left things at -3 to -5 depending on boost, and ran a 12 for an afr and now we're pushing 271whp and 292wtq.

My only concern on the kit is engine management.

Very nice. What kind of boost are you running again? Also.. when you gonna be setting me up as as test car? :P Sorry if I am highjacking.. just a quick question

The original run was at 8.5psi. That ran us a 246whp and 257wtq number with the MAP sensor and -3 degrees. At minus 4 degrees and 11psi we hit the 272whp and 292wtq number. This was with dumping the wastegate back into the exhaust and running a conservative tune.

Our new intercooler came in today so we'll be experimenting with that. We also have the pipes being finished up today to dump the wastegate. We're exppecting over 300whp now at the same 11psi, and about 320-330 wheel torque.

Hi joe_Dezod, you are running:
8.5psi and producing 246hp
11psi you are doing 272 and 292.
I guess that sounds great for the setup you have but please don’t said that by adding an intercooler you will have 300whp until you actually do it. You will probable do better than that. People here will get very easily confuse.

Rick C.

I also said that I'd be dumping the wastegate. More than one company has claimed to have gained about 40whp from this mod alone, one company on this site, and on multiple occasions at our local place. I figure dumping the wastegate AND the nicer intercooler is safe to say I should be gaining 30whp.

I also said that I'd be dumping the wastegate. More than one company has claimed to have gained about 40whp from this mod alone, one company on this site, and on multiple occasions at our local place. I figure dumping the wastegate AND the nicer intercooler is safe to say I should be gaining 30whp.

Tube and fin to Bar & Plate. :bow:

Hi joe_Dezod, you are running:
8.5psi and producing 246hp
11psi you are doing 272 and 292.
I guess that sounds great for the setup you have but please don’t said that by adding an intercooler you will have 300whp until you actually do it. You will probable do better than that. People here will get very easily confuse.

Rick C.

Rick you have misunderstood. We already had an intercooler on both runs and have for the entire time. We are upgrading in style of intercooler.

I decided not to dump the wastegate in my setup, I don’t like the noise. I like it fast and quiet.

Rick C.

Yeah quiet is definately great for the street. Lot more driveable.

We're on the verge of making a race car out of our tC and want every ounce of power we can safely have.

Get a J&S knock sensor, will help in the tuning of your beast.

Rick C.

I don’t have time to get into the discussion of why a GT35R and a t20 perform different at x amount of boost but take this in consideration.
1. The technology in the 2 different turbos is night and day.
2. Look at the map different and look at the hp each turbo makes, don’t forget the price!!
3. I have a large intercooler and a 3” exhaust all mandrel bend.

Every little thing makes difference; I don’t have a t20 so I can not tell you the hp a t20 will do in my setup.

Rick C.
Hey, my statement wasnt directed towards you...it was actually towards engifineer...sorry for the confusion...setup definitely looks sweet

Thanks, will keep you all posted.

Rick C.

Everyone keep in mind that there is more to a bigger turbo than higher cfm ratings. If you measure boost at the manifold with a given valve overlap and given exhaust outlet size, raising the velocity and volume of air will raise the boost pressure. A larger turbo with a larger exhaust port will allow for less backpressure, thus more air for a given pressure (an indirect effect). Please, if someone can correct those physics in any way speak up. So the real effect in this respect is the actual physical construction. My point here is that for a given sized hole, you cannot cram more air through faster and hold the same pressure, which is where the exhaust port sizing and valve overlap come into play.

Second, if the larger turbo is running in a higher efficiency portion of its curve it will also create more power for a given pressure (Already covered, but a possible indirect cause of its different construction).

For those adding to the knowledge here and discussing, thanks. To those just blatantly and blindly trying to say I am 100% off base with no backing.. please elaborate rather than simply taking what you have read and heard and restating it. I am trying to look at this from a sheer physics perspective. I have heard more BS from "reputable" shops and sources in my life than I have good solid info, which is why I always try to understand from a purely fact and science based perspective, which many of the sources here are helping to provide. This may not be the best thread to go further on this in, but since we started.... :P

I do not know all the answers but in this particular case one thing I know is that the smaller turbo has to work harder than the bigger one. Example the t20 may be at about 20,000 rpm to produce 6lb of boost, (please don’t quote me in the exact rmp, I am just giving a scenario) the bigger turbo in this case is the GT35R may be at about 9,000 rpm to produce 6lb of boost meaning the smaller turbo needs to work harder and will produce more heat that means less dense air that equals to less power in comparison to the GT35R. Now 6lb of boost is 6lb of boost correct, NO, 6lb of boost at 80 degrees is not the same as 6lb of boost at 65 degrees. Big difference, the way each turbo gets to 6lb of boost makes all the difference in the word. Some turbos may take longer to get there and some may spool faster.

We are really comparing apples and oranges here. You have to take in consideration for the center cartridge in the turbo itself, some are ball barring and some are not. The GT35R for example is a top of the line ball barring turbo (that is one of the reasoned it cost so much) spools for ever by just turning the blades by hand vs other turbos may just turn a couples of turns. The exhaust housing also make a big different, a bigger exhaust housing will aloud more air to flow, but may take longer to spool the turbo vs a smaller housing will spool faster but will not aloud large portions of air to flow. A big turbo with a small exhaust housing may work great for some applications. And lets not forget the compressor housing in the turbo. In top of all those variables there is also the exhaust manifold pressure and the down pipe pressure. Like I said we are comparing apples with orange. Each set up is completely different from each other, hell my GT35R is not stock ether. All thing been equal you can only compare one turbo vs another in the same car.

I believe the GT35R is an excellent turbo for the scion tc, and that is base on my opinion only, I could be wrong but 260whp @ 6 lb of boost sounds good to me.

Rick C.

Before reading this, i thought i had my list of turbos to consdier pretty much solid, but everytime, i read more and more f/i post, the more and more combinations i am seeing. Dezod that is awesome, and i like the dumping better than having my car quiet, i live in the midwest so it doesnt matter. And Rick, 6 psi and 260whp, simply amazing.

Thanks for the info guys.

Just because a turbo is rated at a higher cfm does not mean that it will send more air into the engine at a given pressure. In order to maintain 6 psi in a given engine at a particular rpm, a certain amount of air must be able to flow into the intake manifold; lets call this number "X". Now as long as we're dealing with the same engine at the same rpm, if you were to flow more air into the manifold than X, this would cause the pressure to rise above 6psi. This is a must since that air has nowhere else to go except to increase pressure. In the same way, if you were to flow less air than X, then the lack of adequate air would cause the pressure to drop below 6psi.

Efficiency comes into play when you exceed the capable flow of a particular turbo. At this point a smaller turbo would not be able to flow enough air to maintain that particular pressure in the manifold (not enough cfm), causing the pressure to drop. But 6 psi will not push the flow limits on any of these turbos, especially on a 4 cylinder engine.

I'm not claiming to be a know-it-all or anything, but I am speaking solely on a fluid dynamics standpoint.

Just thought I'd make a comment here. I've seen this car and know the guy who is doing the work on it. It's as top notch as it gets and the reputation of the builder can't be any better. I spoke to him after the dyno and was told of the numbers.

The amount of cfm at a given efficiency is very important in this discussion. This turbo will run cooler and flow a lot more air than the smaller turbo. Now this will inherently give a little more lag, but that is the only trade off. Because the air charge is cooler and it is flowing more it will make more power. On my car I run a 67 because it outflows the hell out of the gt35r and is more efficient at higher boost levels. It makes more power at the same PSI than the gt35r, so this concept is well known.

Someone mentioned that the head could only flow so much. While this is true, I don't think that it is anywhere near capacity at this boost level. I'm not sure where that will be but I'm guessing at a lot more boost than this.

Rick, I'll be down on Thursday to pick up my car and can't wait to check out yours. I'm going to wish I had that thing after I take a ride in it, I know. It's one bad mother.

I even have a pic of your ride.
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMTE2MjAyNjZzNDEzZGZkMzF5NTQx.jpg

The guys at toyomoto know what they are doing. I have talked to them several times and they do high quality work. Plus they are not afraid to try anything. :) If you have a toyota or Lexus, you are in good hands there.

Charles

sounds promising!!! can't wait to see the results with tuned management. why do you want a stand alone setup?

Piggy back computer may work of small boost and for short period of time.
A stand alone setup controls the fuel, timing and ignition beyond the stock computer can. It also does 100 more thins like; I will be able to select whatever boost I want on any gear and thins like that. Remember all piggy back computer are just that piggy back. A stand alone will decide the correct fuel mixture for whatever you decide to do. Not many people go with the stand alone simply because the price and they usually end up blowing the engine!! I decided to do it right even if it cost a bit more.

Rick C.

Actually I think a lot of peole don't go stand-alone because it's lonely!

Sorry.

People generally don't like to go stand-alone because they're expensive and all.. but more importantly, with a standalone you'd also lose just about every feature that the stock ECU has that doesn't relate to fuel and timing.

Chech out my turbo setup done by TBKperformance.net is the cleanest setups I have seen and it performs amazing. Right know I am @ 9 psi and I have 270 WHP, you can see it yourself on my cardomain page. I have tried 2 different setups, first I had no exhaust and had 8 psi and it gave 232 WHP, and now with 3inch exhaust and 550 RC injectors it has 270!!!!!! :bow:

I saw this tc on monday. Its a very quick tc .. all i gotta say!!

Kungpaosamuraiii, I think I was misunderstood or I said it wrong. The standalone does not replace the sock ECU. Simply because the stock ECU still needs to run the fly by wire and all other stuff like you said.
Went people said piggy back, it really means that the fuel or other components are been share with the stock ECU.
Went people said stand alone it means that the fuel or other components are completely separate from the stock ECU.
The sock ECU is never taken off.
I do know some people using the Haltech on the tc and are only using it for the fuel only. A perfect example will be Olomoco, I had a chance to see his tc and talk to his mechanic, I believe they are using the Haltck for the fuel. Very Nice kit. Will recommend to anyone.
I hope this can clarify some what.

Rick C.