I am starting on a project to supercharge my xB for under $1000. Something to understand is this would not be as pretty as a Greedy or Blitz kit. I am going to use an M62 blower from Eaton that is found in readilly available quantities from any junkyard that has Bonneville SSEi's and other GM 3800 series 1 supercharged cars.

I am big into the 3800 world and have built 4 12 second 3800's and am very familiar with this blower. I just purchased a junk unit to test fit and fabricate.

Most of these blowers can be found for $200-400. I am designing and fabricating a mounting plate that will have a pipe come out of the outlet of the blower and funnel into the intake that is currently on the motor. As such here is what you would need:

Alternater Pulley with second rib set on it to drive the SC pulley (trying to see if the one Greedy makes can be bought, otherwise I will have a custom one made)
Eaton M62 blower
Custom Throttlebody adapter to put our TB on the M62 (not very much)
Custom Intake adapter to be able to accept a pipe (not very much)
Belt to drive the blower
Misc pipes.

As such I would be making this as cheaply as possible but still try and make it look good. Cost is going to be down from using steel and stainless steel instead of aluminum. It will be heavier but not by a gigantic margin.

I am not looking for finacial gain. I would post my plans and prints for everyone to have their own brackets made to have this work. I of course would make some for people upon request but I don't know if there is a 'sellers' rule here, didn't look, so that is not for discussion here.

I am doing this for myself regardless, I am curious though if others are interested. My target is 6psi. I know this blower is bigger than it needs to be thus I will have it spin at a much slower RPM to produce the 6psi, which should aid in NOT needing an intercooler, however, such an intercooler could be added if need be.

I'll try and work up a quick model tonight/tomorrow to show what I mean as it's probably hard to picture in your head. Anyway, thoughts welcome. I just figure why not use parts that are out there for cheap and adapt them for those of us that just want some power and don't really care a huge amount about show. The owner could powdercoat everything if they saw fit.

.... :clap:

if you have the knowledge im sure this can be done, most of us dont have the knowledge or resources so we have to spend a lot more $$$$

i dont really care about looks on the inside, so this is interesting to me ...well somewhat anyway, i'm likely to just stay NA

A company called Speciatly Products (I Think) will make any pully you want.

I have a few contacts in the 3800 world that can do this also, but it never hurts to investigate new avenues :) Thanks!

please keep me tuned in on this!!!!!

can't wait for the pics make sure it'll fit the xA also :pray:

This sounds super interesting. I will buy it in a heartbeat if you start selling it!

Let me know if you need help getting things machined. I have a very good machinist contact!

These are very crude thrown together 3d renderings. I don't have all the brackets on them, just some lines representing where one may go. It's not exactly possitioned either, but gives you an idea of what I am after in some form.

This MIGHT fight the xA, I have one also, so I will look at it. :)

http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blower1.jpg
http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blower2.jpg
http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blower3.jpg
http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blower4.jpg


**AGAIN, VERY CRUDE drawings... just something to give you the general idea. I don't show the TB and all that but it would be on the blower where I have the grey coupling.**

i like the idea, good luck!

what kind of power gains are you looking to get?

It's good to see some people trying new things...and with the abundance of auto recyclers out there, this shouldn't be too hard to find parts. Good luck with it and keep us posted!

interesting concept - i know nothing of the "3800" world, so maybe ill need a crash course, though ive been looking to do something similar

you took the thought out of my head using the 3800 blower... the only thing im having a hard time trying to figure out is that the 3800 is a v6 and we gots the lil 4 banger... the 3800 is a lil much for a the I4 so the tune down seems like agood idea too... i have and idea on the "intake to outtake" (from SC to intake manifold) instead of machining an "intake" type block why not try a "header" style piping... this sounds wierd but a 6-3-1 ... might work realy well this way too... dunno just a thought on saving money

Not sure, I would figure because the boost should be a fairly low temp compared to a smaller blower, I should get some decent gains. I'd like to see 120-130whp. Some may say that isn't much, but for the cost, it is decent in my opinion.

as anyone measured the vaccume psi of the stock intake? i havent had a chance to do this yet - but it's a big q to me to see how many psi i have to push outta the way

(or the intake vaccume measured in BAR ..) if anyone's done it PM me PLS!

Also, to all who may try something like this or have a lack of knowledge on the 3800 motor...Ford has the Thunderbird SC and I'm sure there is a great deal of them in the junkyards (being fords...lol) and lots of info on the net.

Here's one I just found on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Thunderbird-S-C-Supercharger-3-8-V6-NEW_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ38634QQitemZ8032457330QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

These things are CHEAP!!! It's just a matter of getting them to work AND work RIGHT!

you took the thought out of my head using the 3800 blower... the only thing im having a hard time trying to figure out is that the 3800 is a v6 and we gots the lil 4 banger... the 3800 is a lil much for a the I4 so the tune down seems like agood idea too... i have and idea on the "intake to outtake" (from SC to intake manifold) instead of machining an "intake" type block why not try a "header" style piping... this sounds wierd but a 6-3-1 ... might work realy well this way too... dunno just a thought on saving money


There are 4 different 3.8L buick motors. The first was in the grand national that was turbo'd. The second is the Series 1 which had an Eaton M62 (the blower I will use). This blower is actually pretty small for a 3.8L motor and as such, it needed a VERY small pulley to give it ~8psi. Hence, they went to the Series 2 motor using an Eaton M90, this blower is much bigger and was used up till 2003, then the Series 3 motor came out using a Generation 5 M90, more efficient, more boost.

So, we are using the smallest blower ever to be on a 3.8L motor from GM. It was spun way to fast and made way to much heat. Putting a slightly larger pulley on the M62 and driving it slower should still produce an easy 6lbs of boost at a low enough temperature as to not need an intercooler.

I am not sure what you mean by a 6-3-1... there is no point. The outlet on the blower comes right out the bottom, all of it can be collected and distributed into the stock intake. I do not intend to make anything extra. The stock intake will be fine at distributing the boost from the outlet of the blower.

Should I make more detailed pictures or is the idea clear enough?

Also, to all who may try something like this or have a lack of knowledge on the 3800 motor...Ford has the Thunderbird SC and I'm sure there is a great deal of them in the junkyards (being fords...lol) and lots of info on the net.

The Thunderbird uses M90's and my kit will not work with these.

The tunderbird had a limited run with twin M62's, however, also different for that motor.



To the comment about vacuum PSI, there is no PSI in vacuum, it is measured in inHG. Not sure why you need to know this, but at Wide Open Throttle you technically have no vacuum, it is being filled by standard air pressure (atmosphere) being 14.7psi, or more or less depending on altitude. Also called 1 Bar if I recall.

Again, I will only be making mine work with a M62 from a 3800 series 1 years 92-93. The ford versions use different length snouts and intake designs, these will not work with what I am attempting to do.

***BY THE WAY*** I only have three intake runners shown in the CG shots, but you get the idea, there should be 4.

The 3800 motor itself has nothing to do with this either, just the M62 blower from the top of the engine. There is no need for crazy 6-3-1 intakes and such. I'm keeping this as minimal as possible to stay cheap.

^^^I was only pointing out that Ford made them as well, and if some of us have a better knowledge of or know someone that knows fords, this would be an option as well. As you said, it has nothing to do with a GM 3.8 liter, other than the donor part....

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b348/x_rayted711/SL%20photo%20rally%20pics/th_sportexigeengines.jpg (http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b348/x_rayted711/SL%20photo%20rally%20pics/sportexigeengines.jpg)


Click to enlarge...

This is an Eaton M62 on a Lotus Elise 1.8L (with intercooler)...I guess it CAN be done...WOOHOO! lol.

Yeah, I mean, if someone wants to make an adapter for a ford Eaton M62, by all means.

I know it has been done before and that lotus setup looks awesome! It's even intercooled. The boost from my proposal could go into an intercooler as well and then into the stock intake setup.

Can't wait to get my donor blower to start fabricating!

i have a huge gut feeling that it really won't fit the xA

oh well

prove me wrong

As small as these are, they are pretty versatile as far as where to mount it. Blitz has one for the xA, so this one shouldn't have a problem. Of course, you wouldn't be able to mount it where the drawings are above, but that was already stated as an example of what he wants to do and actual mounting locations may be different.

Very true, I can put it at an angle, or wherever it would fit. As said I HAVE an xA, but it is at the dealer for the 5th time due to the charchol canister (no we do not top off) so when we get it back monday I'll take some measurements.

I know for 100% it will fit in an xB.

There seems to be some questions as to why I am using an M62 as to say an M45 for smaller motors.

1.) Easy to find. The config is all flat with no crazy adapters and such for intakes. Most M45's also have an electric clutch to activate the pulley or not. An M62 from a 3800 motor uses a vacume system to bypass boost. As such, you will not need to dial in a 'kick in now' setting and a specific throttle. It will always work when you get on the gas and the engine load requires it. As such it is a gradual 'on' switch and will slowly start to build more boost the harder you push the gas.

2.) M62's are positive displacement blowers. As such, if I used an M45, I would have to spin it faster than I would an M62 to get the same volume of air. The number after the 'M' indicates how much air it moves per rotor spin. An M45 moves .45cu feet of air per rotation. An m62 moves .62cu feet of air per rotation. As such, the M62 would be spun at a slower RPM than the M45 to achieve the same amount of airflow. Yes it is a larger blower thus will require more power from the engine to turn it, but the boost coming out of the outlet should be of much lower temperature preventing knock and in turn making a bit more power.

A giant turbo requires a certain amount of exhaust volume to spin fast enough to give you X amount of boost. Positive displacement superchargers give you a fixed amount of air per rotation, as such, you simply have to get the pulley ratios right to spin it at the proper speed per RPM to achieve the boost one is looking for. This can easily be calculated for target PSI settings. Also, we have modular pulley setups for these blowers, you can always put a smaller pulley on it for more boost. These pulleys are about $60 a piece and each one would give about 2 more PSI. As I don't intend to change the injectors at this point or mess with the ECU, I will stay around 6 or under while testing.

well sounds like you do in fact know what your talking about lol, i sure dont have a clue...but this is interesting.

this reminds me of computers, you can go to dell or gateway or whatever and buy one pre-made on an assembly line for a chunk of cash (brande tc's and sc's) ..or you can buy the parts and build your own computer if you know how (this example he's fabricating his own setup)

interesting! :P

i'm just thinking due to the hood clearance being lower on the car

well sounds like you do in fact know what your talking about lol, i sure dont have a clue...but this is interesting.

this reminds me of computers, you can go to dell or gateway or whatever and buy one pre-made on an assembly line for a chunk of cash (brande tc's and sc's) ..or you can buy the parts and build your own computer if you know how (this example he's fabricating his own setup)

interesting! :P

Hehe, I just built my own computer last week. All the parts were bought from newegg :P.

*hugs comp*

As I don't intend to change the injectors at this point or mess with the ECU, I will stay around 6 or under while testing.

How do you intend to handle fuel management? 6psi though a small amount will still require something.

Emanage is probably the least expensive, but im pretty sure greddy is not making thier plugnplay for xB available anytime soon.

I have a few ideas for fuel that I will try out. I also want to impliment a fuel pressure regulater as fuel pressure should climb at least 1psi per psi of boost. I have a few contacts in the 3800 world that may be able to help us out.

We have a tool that allows us to manipulate the signal from the MAF to adjust fuel for larger injectors. I have to read up on the 1NZ-FE maf setup first though but the principal should be the same. Basically if you install a larger injector you want it to squirt for a shorter period of time to deliver the same volume of fuel. What our tool does is take the input from the maf, and lower it a set amount and send that signal to the ECU. This is done in real time with a high speed processor.

An example would be the Maf sees XXXX signal for Wide Open Throttle with 6PSI, it would command the stock injectors to go nuts and spray a ton of fuel, this doesn't work with changing the injectors to larger ones. So the tool would take XXXX signal and lower it a set %age and send THAT signal to the ECU basically saying there is less air *than there actually is* so squirt less. In return, the larger injectors squirt the proper amount and everything is happy.

This is VERY useful for idle and low RPM driving as you can subtract "air" that the MAF sees and have the larger injectors shoot a shorter pulse.

We can run just about any injector on a Series 2 3800 and configure it with this tool. The tool is $130. I am going to try and have one made for the xB.

This may seem fuzzy. It will all come together soon :) I'll get more details if/when I have the tool to do so.

I am also going to get my scanner program up and running to find out just how much this ECU 'learns' compared to what everyone is saying. ECU's have set parameters as to how far this way and that way they can change a value before they run out of room and set a fault. Microprocessor controled spoofs such as the one I discussed may be a good way to get around it seeing as we can't actually change the code. I have to read up on this 'emanage' thing, but it sounds more expensive than what can be done with direct electronics.

Is there a way to impliment megasquirt into this kit? I think that may be best. Then you will get the most performance out of your kit. If you need anything machined seriously shoot me an e-mail and I'll get you hooked up. I would really love to see this come together.

I was reading on the TRD SC for the Matrix. The matrix has the 'no return' fuel system similar, if not the same as an xB. With their SC, you have to buy an extra installation kit and it includes a piggyback ECU with an extra injector. This may be something to look into. It obviously needs the extra fuel if TRD is adding injectors. I wish I could find out more about it and the Matrix fuel system/ECU compared to the Scion.

I may change the fuel system all together, but if I can get this device I was telling you all about, I won't need to (in theory) as I can run larger injectors. I need to find out specs such as the stock fuel pressure PSI, how much the stock fuel pump can flow, etc.

When I start getting into the nitty gritty I will be researching more about this. At this time I just wanted to post my idea. I'll have more pics when the mock up blower comes later next week.

I would like to avoid a fifth injector at all costs, it isn't the right way to do things, nor do I want a piggyback ECU unit.. I would rather spoof only that which needs spoofing.

good luck bro i hope it works

I got a "piggyback" that does ecactly what your "spoofer" does...
It intercepts the MAF signal from the sensor, and sends whatever adjustment you make as though it were the original signal. It also monitors throttle position, injector duty, rpm, and Knock, also it datalogs. It is quite pricey but super easy to use, and it only spoofs that wich needs spoofing.
I just need to get an obdii scanner, ugh my wallet is giving me a headache...

Xbilly, what is it that you use currently?

Its the TurboXS dtec-fc, the one that uses a Gameboy advance as an interface and gauge. I just finished hooking it up today (my car is still alive, YAY!) I also have a wideband from TXS wired up but I still need to weld in the bung for the sensor. People wanna charge me upwards of $70-$200 to weld in the bung, so im gonna do it myself.
Once I have the wideband up and running I will install my blitz kit and start tuning
If I learn anything without destroying my car , i'll share with you.

Its the TurboXS dtec-fc, the one that uses a Gameboy advance as an interface and gauge. I just finished hooking it up today (my car is still alive, YAY!) I also have a wideband from TXS wired up but I still need to weld in the bung for the sensor. People wanna charge me upwards of $70-$200 to weld in the bung, so im gonna do it myself.
Once I have the wideband up and running I will install my blitz kit and start tuning
If I learn anything without destroying my car , i'll share with you.
how much did you pay for the wideband?

Interesting thread...

I got the dtec, the wideband and a perrin fuel rail for 850 shipped
so I guess you could say $300, $400 and $150 respectively
Its really alot of money, but I wanted to be sure to run boost safely, MSRP for those 3 items together is over $1000

Interesting!

As of now I am kind of going through a lack of power crisis... it's just SOO easy to make a 3800 fast (I still have a supercharged one) and I just don't know if I can make the xb fast enough to keep wanting to drive it.. I love EVERYTHING about the xB EXCEPT the complete lack of torque :(

Dunno, the xB isn't for sale so when the blower gets here this week, fab begins!

This is really good info I hope it works out.

Has any more progress been made on this project?

their is approx 18 of vacuum on the stock intake

"Has any more progress been made on this project?"

I posted in the progress thread about this. Things are coming together, slowly, but they are. It's an issue of time and accuracy. If I didn't work nor have classes at night I would have been done already LOL.