Well these are just some fast shots of the M62 eaton supercharger from 3800 Series 1 motors from GM that I will be using in my Cheap(er) Supercharging project.

I took some timed pictures from in the engine bay with the hood closed and there is at LEAST an inch of clearance, so that isn't an issue.

This is by no means the final mounting location but it's close. It's just resting on things right now and will be elevated slightly. Also, you will see some harness wires in the way and touching, these can and will be moved, so again, this is VERY beta stuff. BUT, I just wanted yall to see what it looked like and will be close to looking like when done. One picture has some red markings showing the rough flow of air... into the inlet on the supercharger then out the outlet, through some pipe into the stock intake. The roll of tape is there for reference and is 2 1/2 inches in diameter giving a view that a 2" diameter pipe will more than fit with room to spare.

This is a promising day and gives renewed vigor to proceed. On a side note, progress with an electrical genious I know is coming along to build a MAF/MAP air fuel calibration device to allow larger injectors. It will only modify the fueling and nothing else by scaling the MAF frequency. The planned cost of this device is $100-200 dollars. It will allow anyone to install larger injectors and tune the car to use them.

Anyway, on with the pix.

http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blowxb/blowxb1.jpg
http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blowxb/blowxb2.jpg
http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blowxb/blowxb3.jpg

:clap: looks good
keep going and dont heard the bad comments
just keep going :clap:

Can't turn back now!!!

More progress from tonight. The template for the mounting plate is getting there. I basically got it cut out and angled/level. More pics for everyone!

Looks like it belongs there!!!! :)
http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blowxb/blowxb_p1.jpg
http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blowxb/blowxb_p2.jpg
http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blowxb/blowxb_p3.jpg
http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blowxb/blowxb_p4.jpg

The chunks of aluminum are just there for temporary support, they are not final design nor do I intend to use these studs. I simply needed something to support the blower.
http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blowxb/blowxb_p5.jpg

WOW looks like that blower has the same displacement as the engine :P :silly: crazy big, hopefuly it'll have an over sized pully on it to help control the boost psi

I have yet to look into what ratio pulley sizes I need for the desired boost. That is probably the easiest part of this whole thing :) But yes, I will have a proper sized pulley. :)

woah
looks like the xB gonna tip forward!
that is huge!

lookin sweet!

I must say it does look rather large, i bet it would not fit an xa,( sorry hornet on flower)
It looks like itll need to slide over a bit to line the pulley up with the crank or alt pulley, but once your rid of that stock airbox there should be plenty of room for it to move over and accomadate any piping.
good luck, LET THE BUILD BEGIN!

:)

Just an FYI it is lined up perfectly with the alternator pulley. It may not look like it but it's spot on, so yes, it's big :)

It really isn't much bigger than a blitz blower honestly... the blitz doesn't have the same inlet style that this blower does.. because of that, the case on this blower is about 8 inches longer.. however, i am confident it will be fine :) Thanks for the props. :)

And yeah.. I don't think this will work on the xA. :(

haha, the angle in the first pic makes it look like the pulley would end up on top of the washer fluid lid. If you say its spot on I believe you.
when vied from above the blitz is more of a tallish stacked design, whereas this eaton is more linear. both appear to be large chunks of metal.

LOL yeah it does look like that doesn't it??? There really is only room for a pulley, then it WOULD be ontop of the washer fluid lid.

The second thing I have to deal with is the oil dipstick. I think I can cut a bit out of the plate (once it's thicker and stronger) and maybe have to tie a string around it to be able to pull it out. It still comes out at an angle because of the flexy plastic but not very convenient.

If it were just me I wouldn't care as I can still get to it.. but I'm trying to design everything with others in mind, as if this works, others may want it and I want it to be as user friendly as possible.

Yup, both big chunks of metal, but OHHH are they COOL! ;) :)

Good to see forward progress!

that IS sweet boogieQ - i wish i had the resources you've got :)

when you're just about done, make sure you document the parts list *hint hint* and have a template ready for another mounting plate *hint hint*

ill buy your diy kit

Thanks for the compliments :) crayonBOX, That's the plan :) I will freely post all the information for someone to have this made themselves, or, if they desire, I will make one for them.

I bought a bunch of sheet metal, some 1/16th inch thick steel plate *for the main plate template* and some aluminum plate for brackets. Eventually, I should have every part sitting here before I ever spend money on the final setup.

The hardest part about installing it if someone buys it is probably going to be putting the belt on :P

I'll be out of town until next week so progress won't be made past this point for a bit yet.

Yeehaw :)

Hey man SWEET JOB!!!! That seems very interesting , but impossible to do on an xA. I hope everything works out fine and good imagination!! Good luck and keep us posted!

Thanks :)

More to come next week for sure! Going out of town for the super bowl.

Have a good weekend everyone, more pics next week.

So this sits on top of the stock intake? Hmmm, i would think the efficiency would decrease using the stock intake.

Is this the system:

Filter SC MAF TB

or

Filter MAF SC TB

I think youre going to have problems if its: FIlter SC MAF TB

Becareful with the injectors also, too large wont help if you exced the fuel pressure capabilities.

Good luck with the R & D, looking forward to the results.

I havent decided which way i will go with the throttle body yet.

The eficiency will be just fine with the stock intake. It will produce more torque than overall total horsepower which is what I want.. who spends all day driving at 6,000rpm? I'd prefer my peak torque be at 2000RPM.

peak torque at 2K rpm is fine on V-8 but not on a 4 cylinder that should be around 3K or 3500 rpm

So ThIs SiTs On ToP oF tHe StOcK iNtAkE? HmMm, I wOuLd ThInK tHe EfFiCiEnCy WoUlD dEcReAsE uSiNg ThE sToCk InTaKe.

Is ThIs SyStEm:

FiLtEr SC MAF TB

Or

FiLtEr MAF SC TB

I tHiNk YoU'rE gOiNg To HaVe PrObLeMs If ItS: FiLtEr SC MAF TB.

BeCaReFuL wItH tHe InJeCtOrS aLsO, tOo LaRgE wOn'T hElP iF yOu ExCeEd ThE fUeL pReSsUrE cApAbIlItIeS.

Not that I really care, but it's not all that efficient to type like that either. It makes it impossible for others to read, and the whole point of posting is so that other people can read what you say. . . but I'm not trying to make fun of you. . . just pointing it out in case you never thought about it. Besides, I think it is frowned upon on most forums.

wasnt ThAt TypIng cool back in like the early 90's? :lalala:

it quickly died because it is completely stupid and very annoying, no need to candy coat the painfully obvious.

not knocking the person, just that form of typing!

gogogogogogogo good work BoogieQ 25/M

ha ha ha . have fun making any power with that.

Gonna keep my eye on this topic...

wow are you seriousely going to put that in man i have to see this!!! that awsome.. becuase i would rther but a kit that already fits.. but i give you some credit for doing a one off install.. cant wait to see it work and finsihed

ha ha ha . have fun making any power with that.

Good attitude. Thanks for the motivation :)

To those with constructive input, thanks :)

I honestly don't really care if it works or not. I would obviously like it too, however I am more doing it simply to say I could and did. If it works, we have a cheap way to make good power, if not, I wasted money but had a good experience.

Hopefully I should have some more progress later this week/weekend. It will probably take at least a month to finish this as I have school, etc.

LOL...I was thinking that too. Our first negative post! And I didn't think it would take this long.

theres many more with the same thoughts but are biting their lips. i don't care and tell it how i see it. good or bad. problem is it is WAY too large.

Well, we'll just have to see, I think it's big too and he explained why the m62 and not the m45, so I am NOT going to question his knowledge on it because I don't know enough about it to say it won't work.

allrighty then . don't question.

Whatever...just let him be and let's all see what happens.

problem is it is WAY too large.


Proof?

What basis do you have to say it's too big or too small?

Give me some numbers, some technical specs, anything.. but to simply say it's too big on your own conclusion is pretty weak.

Bring some information, not just opinion please. Don't get me wrong, your more than welcome to question it.. but if you know something we don't, by all means share.

show me you'r proof as to how it isn't too large. look at blitz or greddy. much smaller. and keep saying it's barely larger that's bull. the blitz's i've seen were minuscule compared to that. i have no proof. is that what u want me to say? fine.

whatever makes u happy.

Here, this is for you.

I used photoshop to remove the excess inlet section and moved it up to the rotors just like the greedy. I also removed the extra mounting feet that is required for general motors vehicles.

**Without knowing the exact model used by greedy I cannot make the direct comparisons** -edited


This is the GREEDY blower:

http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blowxb/greedy.jpg


This is the M62 from Eaton without the extra inlet tube (right up to the rotors like the greedy) and without the extra feet (used for mounting them to GM engines. It's no larger PHYSICALLY other than the extra crap on it..

http://www.ajschneider.com/car/blowxb/mine.jpg

I'll dig up the tech specs for ya later. I have to anyway, just haven't gotten around to it. If they indeed use the M45, great. I simply have to spin the M62 slower to achieve the same goal. Even though the Mp112 was designed for engines larger than the 3.8L 3800, they still work just fine on them. The m62 was 'designed' for 2.0L up.. it will be just fine on a 1.5L. Anyway, it's all 'speculation' but at least I'm trying..

Tell ya what, you don't have to buy it! ;)

Just don't know why your such a sourpuss about this? WHatever floats your boat!

i'm not a "sourpuss"

don't you think theres a reason they suggest it for a certain engine size? optimal conditions.

I just went to eaton's site and looked at the temperature charts they have listed.

The M62 can flow more air per RPM (obviously) than an M45. However...

To achieve the same airflow the M62 can spin 2,000RPM slower than the M45. As such, the output (m62) temperature at 5psi is ~5-10 degrees F lower than it would be at the same RPM of the M45. Because we are spinning the M62 slower, it also requires less HP to drive it than it normally would if we were staying at the same RPM.

So, to spin an M45 at 10,000 RPM @ 5psi requires 9 HP. This is at 220CFM.

To spin an M62 at 8,000RPM @ 5psi requires, uh oh, 9HP.
This is also at 220CFM.

I am sure there is a small (1-2HP) difference simply because the rotors are bigger. The volumetric efficiency is also 5% less for the M62@8,000rpm than is the M45@10,000rpm.

For all practical purposes.. this blower is $200-300 and within , I'll even say 10%, of the M45 class at equal flow rates. I'll take that loss but I am betting it is less than that.

By the way Hotbox, I'm not trying to get on your case. Of course there is a recommended range, but as you can see, it can still work by running the numbers Eaton Provides.

And again, Eaton says the MP112 is for 4.8-6L engines yet we have plenty of 3.8L engines running low 11's and high 10's in the quarter using the bigger blower. Slower RPM, usually more efficient.

What would the world be without doubt? :) I welcome it, but I urge you to provide some real life data as to your claims instead of "It is to big", deal?

:)

Anyway..

Here are the charts for the M45:
http://www.magnusonproducts.com/images/mp45g1.jpg
http://www.magnusonproducts.com/images/mp45g2.jpg

Here is the M62
http://www.magnusonproducts.com/images/mp62g1.jpg
http://www.magnusonproducts.com/images/mp62g2.jpg


Just posting this as my source. If I read something wrong please let me know.

This is interesting...Watching with anticipation...Good luck, hope it works out for you...I give you credit for trying something different, don't bother with the nay-sayers...

good luck, keep us posted.

Boogie, what the status of your project? haven't heard anything for a while....

good luck. I look forward to see your progress.

any new updates??? ive been wanting to see this in action.

^^^ Same here, any updates?

yeah me 2 ^^^^^

only in kentucky...lol anyhow nice progress thus far, it will come down to the math I believe, and you may just want an engine damper or something to stabilize the puppy with all that extra wieght. Warranty Voided, lol.

Boogie keep up the good work!

"only in kentucky...lol anyhow nice progress thus far, it will come down to the math I believe, and you may just want an engine damper or something to stabilize the puppy with all that extra wieght. Warranty Voided, lol."

Only in Kentucky? I, sir, am not a redneck.
Weight gained will be around 30 lbs.. I hope the frame doesn't buckle!! "Warranty Voided, lol" Oh snap, for real? I'm going to lose my warranty!? AHH!!! ;) :) Relax, I'm well aware my friend.

Thanks for the encouragement to the rest of you.

I have taken all the measurments needed and am drafting the setup in Autocad next week. I'll be prototyping parts shortly after. I have about 5 weeks to go yet as I want it to be very easy to install.

If anyone wants to help by finding out for me how to get a hold of the alternator pully that the greedy kits come with that would be great. I'm planning on making my own but why reinvent what's been done.

wasn't alluding so much to redneck as I was the Dukes of Hazard type crew, tinker, tinker, bam! Yeeeehaaawww! lol, i've had my laugh. good luck, i want a cheap supercharge for my car too.

It's no problem bro, just ribbin you back. :)

Boogie, try PM-ing Rocket, he seems to know his stuff and could probably give you some pretty good measurements from the pulley on his kit.

My main question.....

Knowing you are only running about 6psi with this thing, do you have to upgrade the fuel system or can the stock fuel system and ECU handle this?

I mean we are only talking about 6psi.

I ask this because I am starting research on building a S/C system for my xB but going a slightly more expensive and ALOT noisier route by using a Lysholm blower. I plan on this blower putting out about 8psi and I am trying to find out if I really need to make changes to the fuel system and whatnot.

Sorry if I asked this in a couple spots. I want to get a number of opinions.

As in other threads, I think 8 is stretching it after running the numbers and equations. I have all the figures at home (at work right now) and they all point to ~4-6 being the butter without having to really get into the thick of it.

Because it is returnless on the fuel system the fuel pressure doesn't rise with boost, it will stay a constant 43psi(I think?) at all times. If you don't raise the fuel pressure with boost you are asking for trouble. Now 6psi on a 1.5L engine isn't pushing a gigantic amount more air and as such the fuel should be able to keep up.

Fuel required for 6psi on a 7L engine is much different than 6psi on a 1.5L engine. Our injectors are small but can support more HP than stock. The only thing I DON'T yet know is how the MAF tables are setup in the ECU and how much air will run them off the top and max out the table. That = bad. A spoof of the MAF signal that scales it in relation to the size of the new injectors when installed sounds like the best option. A return feed and rising rate FPR still needs to be put in.

Hence, I intend to stay low boost to run the shake downs and make sure it's all skippy before going crazy on it with fuel additions and everything.

Besides, I don't like to wind out my engine to 6+grand, I'd rather have 200ftlbs of torque from 2k-4k and shift to the next gear. I'm doing this because this car can't get out of it's own way below 3500rpm and that sucks!

I talked to my friend more and he can make an electronic device to control a 5th injector. With this device and the 5th injector the motor with stock fueling and ECU should be able to handle 180hp.

I'll get to work with him on this device. In the meantime I am sourcing out an M62 blower for my ride.

Adding larger injectors and fuel rail should be sufficient for adding fuel, but is a good idea to have some control over those injectors.

What happend to using the Lysolm?

Your way is cheaper.... lol

If some money comes along I will buy the Lysholm blower instead.

I have some time because I am going to do the fueling first.

Ok, BoogieQ,

My friend and I have done the research that needs to be done for the 5th injector and controller. This will allow the fuel system to remain stock, you simply tap into the fuel pressure regulator and run a 5th fuel line to an added injector. This injector will sit in the intake tract just BEFORE the throttle body.

So what I would love to see are some more final mounting locations and the plumbing so I can see what all I need to get my hands on to mound plumb a 5th injector into the system.

I am still trying to locate an M62 blower at a reasonable price, once I have done that I will be mountiing min blower up.

I also have a friend that can mill me an alternator pulley that has a place for the S/C belt.

This is gonna rock.

Maybe I am missing something, but...

Why spend all the extra time, effort and money of installing the fifth injector when you can just install a new fuel rail and larger injectors as suggested above?

such a horrible mechanical efficiency :( should have gotten a Lysholm from a VW :(

Maybe I am missing something, but...

Why spend all the extra time, effort and money of installing the fifth injector when you can just install a new fuel rail and larger injectors as suggested above?

If you just put larger injectors in there the vehicle will run VERY rich at an idle and set a check engine light.

This 5th injector mod allows the car to remain stock when not under boost. the 5th would only kick in when needed.

such a horrible mechanical efficiency :( should have gotten a Lysholm from a VW :(

Trust me, if I had the money I would go Lysholm. Lysholm blower is $1500, used M62 is $200-300.

"such a horrible mechanical efficiency should have gotten a Lysholm from a VW "

*sigh*, please enlighten us... do you have some actual data on why it is so 'horrible'?

I can take critic's comments, but please, if your going to just smash the idea with one sentance, have the heart to back it up.

As said, WAY cheaper for a used M62. And incase everyone has forgotten, the current kits on the market use the brother to the m62, the m45... so that would mean they are useless also. Sweet.

I don't know about the 5th injector. I know it will help, but, I would like to have a link to some more reading on it if you have a chance ctruss. Thanks!

there will al ways be nay sayers , keep going. if you are having fun with this project thats all that matters. personally i hope it works out. I am all for cheep yet well engineered projects and it sounds like you are doing your home work. good luck and keep us all posted.

"such a horrible mechanical efficiency should have gotten a Lysholm from a VW "

*sigh*, please enlighten us... do you have some actual data on why it is so 'horrible'?

the horsepower required to turn the M62 at enough RPM to create say.. 10 PSI.. is gonna be about 30% higher than a properly sized lysholm.

does that explain efficiency to you? the SC is too big for such a small motor (like running around with a huge turbo... only in this case, the 1.5 doesnt make enough power to warrant such a large blower, where in the case of a turbo, you'd never put out enough exhaust gas to turn a large turbine.

here's your data.
M62
http://www.capa.com.au/pics/eaton_M62_graph.gif

sorry for the crappy size.. also, this is a third generation M62, so if you have an older unit, (which you do, i'm guessing, with a price like that) expect efficiencies to suck even worse.

looks like about 35HP is used at 10 psi and full speed.... just about what it's gonna try and MAKE on the car.

here's a properly sized Lysholm (whipple, Blitz)

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/lysholm.jpg

even at 2:1 pressure ratio (14.7PSI) and 12000 RPM, the lysholm/blitz/whipple/kennebell (all twin screw designs) only requires 28KW (21HP) to turn...

i'm not trying to rain on your parade, but you really might end up with an even slower 1nzfe...

All of that very interesting info aside... The concern for me with a fifth injector before the blower, is that there is a small risk of exploding the blower.
Theoreticly
If you add fuel to the air going into the blower where compression is made that sounds a bit like what a cylinder of an engine is. imagine if that compressed mixture of air and gas were somehow ignited ::BOOM::
probably would never happen, but it could maybe

Tomago,

Thanks for backing up your post. One thing you are forgetting in the equasions is that being a larger blower, it does not need to spin as fast to FLOW the same amount of air as a smaller blower. I did the calculations and 6psi will require in the range of 200 CFM if I recall (i'll double check my figures when I get home), on the 1.5L 1nz-fe. Being that my target for now IS 6psi, I would have to limit the blower to around 7500RPM. Looking at the charts, this lands us at around 9-10HP required, not anywhere close to 35.

Also remember that the 7500RPM is PEAK. You have a ratio of pulley size of the crank to the blower and as you spin the engine faster, thus so does the blower. It is a rising rate and yes would require 10ish HP at peak througput (6000 rpm @ 6psi) but will be less at lower RPM speeds where less CFM is required to supply the 6psi.

Now, I seriously am not a science major. I have general theory to back me and real world experience with blowers. I am in NO way saying an older generation M62 is better than a Lysolm or Brand X blower... I am simply saying it is VERY cheap to find these things in comparison to new ones and that the power requirement to spin it is not as high as you believe it to be.

Besides, who says I won't turn up the boost later? Why start with a tiny blower only to run out of GO?? ;)

By all means point out something I missed but I do not believe it is near as drastic as you have pointed out. In any event, it's going to happen.. my new working M62 is in the mail and will be here soon.

Machine work will begin in the next two weeks $$ permitting with it *hopefully* completed by very early May.

Again, don't take this as an attack, I sure as heck do not know everything.

To the comment regarding exploding blowers.. fear not.. the temperature required to ignight fuel is near 500degrees.. outlet temps will be under 200 degrees. Highest I have personally encountered was a tinge below 300.

The compression doesn't accually occur in the rotors themselves, it occurs by packing more air into the outlet side and intake manifold than the engine can physically consume. now, if you set off a spark hot enough to fire off that mixture, then yes you would have problems, but the compression that takes place is not enough to set off the fuel by itself.

Hope this helps.

i guess all we can say is...

lets wait and see..

just hope this isn't a "cheap now, expensive later" approach to boost..

The blower is sound, it's mounting will be sound. If anything the outlet temps will be a bit higher than a better blower and it may not give as much HP pound for pound.

The way I figure it this blower is capable of delivering a rather large amount of air while still remaining somewhat efficient. I have used this blower before in my 92' SSEi and it is rock solid.

I'll be totally honest and say my research says it will work fine, but it's entirely possible it will suck more than blow LOL. One thing is for sure though, it will not be a hodge poge and will be built well to avoid problems in the future. It's cheap because the blower is cheap. Thus we are talking ~$600 for the kit instead of $1600-2000.

yes i agree, the blower is the huge $$ factor, but after that, make sure and build it up right ;) (not that you wouldn't)

have you looked at mega squirt for fuel management?

Trust me, if I had the money the Lysholm blower would me my choice because it is the moct effecient blower. To top that off, Bahn-Brenner sells about 20 different sized pulleys for it so you can fine tune the boost.

It really is too bad that Whipple is so ridiculously expensive with everything that they do. You can buy all the different basic components separately from them, but the prices are crazy!

They are located in Fresno, and I have been to their shop once. I also had a friend who bought one of the first PT Cruisers in California when they were originally released. His was the PT used to prototype their supercharger kit. And what did he get for it? Nothing, nada, zip, zilch, zero! No comp'd supercharger. No price break on the supercharger. Nothing. They just removed the supercharger when they were done and that was it. Well, I guess a thank you isn't nothing.

Regardless of all that, I still drool every time I see a Whipple equipped vehicle. It is unfortunate that even if they ever did come out with a kit it would cost 1/3 the value of our cars!

whipple buys the SC from Lysholm industries..

... That was until recently, Whipple is now either sourcing them elsewhere or has begun to produce them themselves. Lysolm bricked big time with supply issues over the years and recently hosed whipple when they were going to be supplying the blowers for the next cobra on the current gen mustang.

Regardless.. yes, I intend to build this up well with aluminum to keep the weight down. My wife is an Underbody Weld Engineer with Toyota and has knowledge of structural integrity and materials that blows my mind. She won't let me run something that isn't solid :)

"have you looked at mega squirt for fuel management?" No, what are some details about it? Link?

I would like more information on this car's MAF and the kind of tables it has.. last thing I want to do is run out of the tables that meter the air coming in!!

.... Well at least that is what I heard.... I know the new 'AX' line of blowers isn't lysolm.

www.megasquirt.info

Interesting............

if you look closely, you'll see a fellow member Proctor Silex lurking there.. as well as me.

So have you used this system on a car? If so which one? Think it would work well for the xB? I am really not an electronics guy and stuff like this baffles me. Could I figure it out? Sure, but it's better when people do it for me LOL.

I'll have to check it out.

i have not yet used it, have no idea how it woudl fare with VVTI etc, but i know there is a huge support group for anyone who does have questions. furthermore, if you DO end up figuring out VVTi etc, you can turn right around and buy a few kits, program them for the 1nzfe, and turn a small profit.. maybe even pay for your original purchase ;)

That Megasquirt system looks like a nice system.

I am still going foreward with the home-built 5th injector controller though since I can build it for less than $15. So that and the price of an injector and I am able to support up to 180hp or so.

* Watching thread

I got all the parts for the 5th injector controller. It's only $5 to make this thing. HAHA

?!-$5-!? doess that include electronics?

?!-$5-!? doess that include electronics?

Yes, this device is a simple thing that "reads" the voltage signal put out by the oxygen sensor and the MAF sensor. It takes this info and decids when and how long to turn on a 5th injector.

The device only takes $5 to build. It's nothing more than a small $2 chip and a series of resistors and wiring and other misc simple electronics.

I'll post pics once I get one built.

wow, I feel like I wasted $500 on fuel management.

Trust me, Your expensive fuel management is more acurate. This system works and works well but a system like yours has control over your fuel system where as this thing just adds in extra fuel when it needs it.

This $5 device works well but trust me, if had money, I'd go the more expensive route.

i dont have money, i have debt! lol

LOL ^^^^

I still wouldn't say you wasted $500 either. Because it was just about the only option, of course it will be expensive. More options, lower prices.

On a side note, I don't know if I mentioned it in the progress thread but I finally sourced my working blower. It is in the mail as of tomorrow. I can actually make more progress for a change!

I have also landed a side job upgrading the cam in the "old run down pushrod 3800 V6" for a local guy here. This secures the rest of the funds needed to have the parts machined.

I'm getting excited. So far, with buying the blower and all the machine time, aluminum/steel scrap, etc. I am still under $500. If it works, AWESOME, if not, well, it will dangit!

Good info here on the 5th injector. This is the kind of stuff that moves a community forward!! keep the info coming guys!

Boogie, I mentioned the 5th injector a few months ago when I refered to the TRD SC on the Matrix and you blew it off. I thought you had a legitimate reason NOT to run it, but, like I said before...if Toyota is using it on a Matrix and it works, it should work for what you are doing. I know the fuel system on the Matrix is a non-return like the xB, but I don't know if they are identical other than injectors and ECU. You might be able to find out more on the fifth injector system by searching for info on the TRD set-up with the Matrix SC.

Boogie, I mentioned the 5th injector a few months ago when I refered to the TRD SC on the Matrix and you blew it off. I thought you had a legitimate reason NOT to run it, but, like I said before...if Toyota is using it on a Matrix and it works, it should work for what you are doing. I know the fuel system on the Matrix is a non-return like the xB, but I don't know if they are identical other than injectors and ECU. You might be able to find out more on the fifth injector system by searching for info on the TRD set-up with the Matrix SC.

If I blew it off I apologize. I STILL feel it isn't the RIGHT way to do it but after months of research trying to see if the right way is possible, I have found it really isn't.

I did do some more reading on the 5th injector and it seems sound however I do not know how well this motor will react with that kind of setup. I am an infant when it comes to this and may very well destroy my engine trying a new setup such as the one in this thread.

If I blew you off in a harsh manner I apologize. I was still set in my ways and spoiled by the options I have had available to me on other projects... being so restricted on this motor is hard to deal with. We are coming around though.

Again, I apologize. your thoughts were legit and may very well end up as being the way I suppliment fuel. :P :bow: :love:

^^^ No biggie.
I just felt dumb after I mentioned it before by the response. I thought there were some serious downfalls to that system by the way you responded before ( as there still could be downfalls...we just don't know). It wasn't in a harsh manner (as you are pretty polite on here). Anyway, it's all good. Now back to the topic....

Can someone research the Matrix fuel system, the xB fuel system, and the 5th injector kit that comes with the TRD SC for the Matrix?

My friend is building me a device to control a 5th injector. He uses this device on his Escort Pony that he turbo'ed. His car makes 212 wheel hp and 262 ftlbs of torque at the wheels. The engine is running on stock internals, the only thing he has problems with is the transmission not being strong enough.

Here are some pics of his 5th injector controller. Note: since these pics he has been able to make them MUCH smaller.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/11/web/419000-419999/419565_126_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/11/web/419000-419999/419565_127_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/11/web/419000-419999/419565_128_full.jpg

Found pics of his second version. He is making them even smaller than this now.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/11/web/419000-419999/419565_181_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/11/web/419000-419999/419565_182_full.jpg

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/11/web/419000-419999/419565_183_full.jpg


This controller works and works well. It reads the signal from the oxygen sensor and the MAF sensor and uses that information to decide when to kick on the 5th injector. It is also adjustable so you can adjust how early or late it turns on and how much fuel it adds.

It is quite simple yet very effective and only costs about $5 in materials.

Those pics say injector 1 and injector 2 because he actually made his controller a dual-stage deal where it kicks on one and then as boost increases it adds in another. He makes anough power that he needs fuel from 6 injectors.

Now THAT , is AWESOME!

I see where your going man... and I like it! Looks like there is a good amount of precision to it and it can retain the stock injectors and simply suppliment them. No need for any ECU resets.

Talk to ya in email!

Yes, it's a supplement to the fuel system on the car. The 5th injector can be spliced in just before the fuel rail and this device tells it how long to run and when to run.

very sweet,
I wonder if the xb ecu will start to try to trim down the original injectors or interfere in some way.

wow.... my eyes are focused on you guys....tell more....more
more....more.....

very sweet,
I wonder if the xb ecu will start to try to trim down the original injectors or interfere in some way.


In theory it shouldn't. I would estimate (I do not know for sure) that because the ECU has no info coming from the 5th injector controler (thus it cannot 'see' it) that it will only rely on it's current sensing. By it only looking at it's current sensing, it should see " Well, I have X air coming in, I'm pulsing at x MS on the injectors I know exist, and my 02 voltage looks to be in the right spot.. so.. I don't have to do anything".

It should work almost exactly like a nitrous system now that I think about it... except that instead of the fuel being injected with nitrous, it's being injected with extra air from the blower.

^^^ Do you think it will or could shut down fuel to the four original injectors?

This may be a stupid question, but I would think if it were sensing too much fuel and not know there is a 5th injector, it would shut down fuel to the original four and cause a lean condition.

I guess thats what the O2 sensor is for?

And the ECU SHOULD keep it within the 14.7 ratio or whatever it is, even with the fif injector (a little Dave Chappelle comedy in there with the 'fif')?

Certainly the ecu will not know the 5th injector is there, but I guess if it notices changes in the AFR its corrections wouldn't interfere too much, but in f/i you do want to run a tad rich right?

^^^ Yes, that's why I asked. I don't think there is a way to run slightly rich as a safety feature...But I have been wrong before.

This 5th injector controller won't interfere with the stock fuel system or ECU at all. It is set up to add fuel as the oxygen sensor and MAF sensor see fit.

Since this fuel is being added in while the ECU and stock fuel system don't know it, it keeps the fuel system in check as far as the computer can tell. The engine won't run lean and that means the ECU isn't trying to make up for missing fuel because of the blower. The missing fuel is dropped in as needed by the independant 5th injector controller.

Here's what I see as a problem though....By the time the O2 sensor sees the lean condition and starts to add fuel, it's already too late...it has already ran lean, you see where I'm going with this? As a 'safeguard', there should be a way to anticipate when it will run lean and add fuel before hand.

Sorry for being off topic and also....PLEASE if I have something wrong here...correct me! I'm here to learn!

Here's what I see as a problem though....By the time the O2 sensor sees the lean condition and starts to add fuel, it's already too late...it has already ran lean, you see where I'm going with this? As a 'safeguard', there should be a way to anticipate when it will run lean and add fuel before hand.

Sorry for being off topic and also....PLEASE if I have something wrong here...correct me! I'm here to learn!

Thats why this device reads the MAF also. PLUS you can set the sensativity of the device as well. You don't run lean. Well you may run a teeny, tiny bit lean for a milisecond in the worst case.

Also, your stock injectors should be able to handle the sudden requirement for fuel and give the 5th injector time to fire up and suppliment before any issues arrise.

As it isn't tested on THIS car yet, we don't know how it will all play out for 100% certainty yet. However, this is going to be setup on TWO cars within the next month or two and testing will begin.

I asked my friend that originally made this device repeatedly if it should work on our cars. His words exactly were...

"This device will work on any car with a MAF and an oxygen sensor."

He has been using this device on his turbo Escort for like two years now. He drives his car reliably everyday in the summers.

I am confident in this device and I plan on getting these built for anyone that wants them. All I ask for is time for us to get them tried out on our prototypes and then I'll start building them for people. As far as cost, I will determine that as soon as I learn how long it takes for me to make them. Materials are only about $5, so most of the cost is labor.

Stay tuned.

After reading on these, I really want one of these 'gizmos' for my Tacoma! I have been working on a turbo kit for some time, and have everything made as far as the exhaust and intake, but have not found an easy 'cheap' way to keep the fuel management where it needs to be. I think this is what I've been looking for! I hope we can get a few extra made...I'll get one!

After reading on these, I really want one of these 'gizmos' for my Tacoma! I have been working on a turbo kit for some time, and have everything made as far as the exhaust and intake, but have not found an easy 'cheap' way to keep the fuel management where it needs to be. I think this is what I've been looking for! I hope we can get a few extra made...I'll get one!

I will talk with my friend, he is the electrical master that came up with it. I can tell you right now he won't want to build a ton of these so he is gonna have to show me how and I will do it.

Once I am making these 5th injector controllers I will offer them up for sale on here.

^^^ I totally understand. If I knew what parts I needed, I would build it myself, but I can't tell exactly what is needed by the pics. I think this is EXACTLY what I've been looking for to use on the Tacoma! Just keep us informed! THX.

^^^ BTW...ctruss...I work at a metal fab shop. I can make the cases/mounting plates if you need them. I just need dimensions and details as to what you need exactly. I may be able to do the holes and such too, but it will take some accurate measuring by you to let me know where the locations are supposed to be. It shouldn't be an issue to whip up 10-15 and ship them to you.

UPDATE:

Getting some aluminum stock to start making a few test plates and brackets. I should hvae the blower ON the car for durability testing this weekend. By that I mean it will be mounted but not functioning. I want to test the bracket setup in hard driving and heat to check for warping, etc so fourth.

An intercooler is being deloped as well as the fuel controler and 5th injector setup. We are looking into powdercoating for all of the parts to provide a fresh look.

If it isn't obvious at this point, Ctruss and Myself are going to be jointly developing this from here on out to provide a complete kit with full intercooler options.

More to come!

I am getting my aluminum together as well as building the first few 5th injector controllers over the next week or so.

I am hunting down my blower but I do have a gutted one to use to make the mounts with.

We will keep you updated.

I would like to see this finished...so get a move on. :D

Seriously though, I have heard that M62 blower and the Eaton blower on the cavaliers and let me tell you they SCREAM!! So loud in side the car under boost. It is definitely the supercharger whine I wish I had. But I will take the whistle of my TRD charger.

Now that the Nationwide Ames, IA show is over I am going to spend a little more time on this project.

Look for updates soon.

A buddy of mine made a supprise visit, I was tied up this weekend so no more progress on my end was made. I am, however, going to be mounting the system in the next few days with boost HOPEFULLY within a few weeks.

Wee!!

any update?

Yep, click this link http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=131955

Thanks...

so whatever happened to this?

It's still up in the air. Version 1 'worked' but needed improvement. The project isn't totally dead but it's on the back burner for right now.