My mother wants to buy an xB (she's 74, and it's PERFECT for her!), but she and my dad discovered this lock problem. Here's what it is:

unlock the doors, and keep the key in your hand. Open the driver's door and get in, but don't close the door. Lock the doors, and then close the driver's door.

Now you're inside the car with the doors locked.

Now try to unlock any door, either with the electric lock button or manually with the lock stem.

You can't do it. The ONLY way to unlock the doors is either use the key from the outside, or put the key into the ignition and turn it on. This will disable whatever mechanism is keeping the locks locked, so that you can now unlock the doors either with the electric door lock button or the lock stem itself.

In my opinion, this is a very dangerous behavior.

I have verified this behavior with a friend of mine who bought her xB a few months ago.

The dealer confirmed it as well.

Can anyone check the owner's manual to see if this is mentioned in any way?

I have a Lexus; it doesn't behave that way.

If we can turn this behavior off and make it so the door locks can be operated at least manually at any time without restriction, my mother will buy the xB. Otherwise, she won't.

Thanks for any help.

 

is there any reason you would want to lock and unlock the doors that way?

 

well my doors dont electronicly (sp?) if a door is open

 

Why would anyone do this? Everyone I know locks themselves in the car after they are already in it if at all. The lock system has a lot of logical combinations to try and keep our cars secure as well as protect us from locking our keys in the car. The engineers probably didn't think anyone would lock the doors then get in and not start the car. Not having my manual handy I would logically assume that it's programmed to assume that if you lock the car with the door open that you are exiting the vehicle. Disabling the locks on the inside would prevent someone from using the coathanger method of breaking into the car and possibly even the slim jim method.

 

Well, I can imagine kids playing around and finding themselves locked in to the point where they can't even manually unlock the doors.

Frankly, I'm stymied by the though process behind ANY design that prohibits the manual lock levers from operating.

My mother LOVES this car--but please keep in mind that this is a woman who resisted power windows. She's currently driving a 94 Civic DX, with manual locks and windows. She has a fear of being in a situation where she needs to roll down the windows but can't. She's mostly over that, but now this has her thinking about being stuck in the car--for WHATEVER reason--and not being able, even manually, to unlock the door.

You may find it silly, but I don't. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask:

a) can anyone look in the owner's manual for an explanation of this behavior--is it even documented, and

b) can this behavior be changed?

My father discovered this behavior *entirely* by accident yesterday. I don't think it's a question of anyone *wanting* to do the steps required to make this happen; it's a matter of accidents happen, and it's definitely a matter of "if it CAN do it, then what are the chances that this interlock mechanism will engage for some unknown reason (accident?) when I absolutely don't WANT it to do it?"

 

That was my first, and only logical, thought. That makes the most sense.

But then it occurred to me: no other car I've ever dealt with does this. I don't know, but I don't think Toyotas do this, even.

And then it occurred to me that having this feature onboard costs money. The mechanism to do this costs $X per car. Car makers are loathe to add manufacturing cost to a car, and I imagine to the Scion brand in particular. So if it cost a buck per car to have this behavior (this is on all doors), that's a bunch--and if anything, I could see this behavior on a more expensive car but not on the very low price brand.

Maybe they're thinking that Scions might have a high theft rate, and this is a way to help stop that? Maybe the insurance company would have some ideas.

 

Mine did the same once...

 

Personally deleted!!!

 

superfreestyle, do you have any documentation regarding this?

As for "a person would only lock it in this manner when exiting the vehicle," that seems right on the surface--but dig down, and you'll see that there's much more under the surface.

If this is intentional behavior--and I would expect this to be outlined in the owner's manual--then Toyota *did* create a problem, and *did* overlook the other safety issues involved here.

Could this be the same Toyota that's putting big brother control systems into their cars, attempting to prevent operator error but in actuality crippling the cars in a very dangerous way?

Just ask any of a number of ES330 owners about their transmission lag.

Attempts at safety in one direction are causing dangerous situations in other directions. I can't believe that no one at Toyota considered the consequences.

I can imagine locking out the power lock button so that a coat hanger couldn't push it and unlock the car, but to create a physical (read: materials cost) interlock mechanism that prevents the lock button itself from manually being operated? That's a huge safety issue, AND it's a decent amount of money per car with respect to manufacturing costs.

They're spending huge amounts of unnecessary money to create cars that have a big safety hole?

I'll have to go check out the Toyotas and see if they do this.

If the Toyotas do this, and if the Lexuses do this, then it's plainly a design decision. But if they don't do this, and if this behavior isn't documented in the Scion owner's manual, I still question it on the Scion.

Do the other Scion models behave this way?

 

didn't you say if you turn the key in the ignition that the locks work then? If so I don't see the problem, if they still don't work that would be a problem.

 

yeah, turning the key on unlocks the interlock.

It's still not an ideal situation for a family with kids. I was thinking of this car--that back seat is to die for when you have kids--but this kinda bothers me. My kids are younger, and I can see them fooling around in the car and locking themselves in. MY kids wouldn't be in any danger, other than being scared to death because they can't get out. But overall....

And for my mother, it's a fear of the interlock activating in a bad situation--in an accident, or even due to a simple technical malfunction--and preventing her from unlocking the door to get out. She's 74; it's not like she's willing or able to crawl around the car and find a door that will work, should this thing engage unintentionally or inadvertently.

I didn't say it was common, but her fear is her fear. Like i said, she's become accustomed to the idea that whatever car she gets will have power windows. Now this lock thing has come up, and if it's for real and intentional and can't be defeated, then it's a show-stopper for both of us.

I'd just like to see or hear formal documentation from Toyota on this. I'll have to head to the dealer and read the owner's manual. CERTAINLY it would be mentioned in there, one would think. I mean, this is unusual enough behavior in the current car world that they'd have to explain it. Shoot, they still explain the simple things like how to latch your seat belt...

 

I don't understand why you would lock the door before getting in the car. But, maybe Toyota thought these cars would have a high theft rate so they spent the extra $$ for this safety feature. Who knows.

 

I'm thinking more along the lines that it wouldn't happen intentionally--rather, that it's a mechanism that (a) no other car that I know of has, and (b) could inadvertently fail for whatever reason and trap someone inside the car.

Imagine the car catches on fire and this mechanism is affected or otherwise decides to engage and lock the people inside the car. They can't manually unlock the doors and get out of there.

Gee, I'd like to see Toyota's documentation on the pros and cons--legal and otherwise--of implementing this mechanism.

At least they could give the owner an option to disable it. Hey, since this is under computer control, maybe there *is* a way to disable it...

And that's why I'm here. Or is there a better forum in which to discuss this and look for a solution, if there is one?

 

I see where you are coming from, but unfortunately I have no idea on how to disable it. Hopefully someone will will figure it out and you and your mom could feel safe with her driving an xB.

 

Not that it would or should happen often, but what about this scenario?

Your car is unlocked, you run outside to grab something out of it. Open the door reach in and grab it. Out of habit, you hit the lock button only to see something else you need to grab on the opposite floorboard. Instead of walking around the car, you jump in lean over and get it. Meanwhile, your car is parked on a hill and the door (that you've just locked) slams closed behind you.

It was originally unlocked, so you didn't grab your keys, your in the car the door locked and the windows up. You can't put the key in the ignition cuz you don't have it.

What then?

I can see someone, especially an older woman, being worried about this.

ALL four doors would be locked. I think there is an emergency door handle on the hatch, but I've also heard it's kinda hard to get to, that it's just there cuz it's a rule for car makers. For a 74-year-old woman, it may not be an easy task to make it back to the hatch.

Even if it were something as simple as this, you would either have to sit and wait for someone to find you, find another way out, or break a window (if you didn't have a cell phone).

And if it were an emergency situation, you could be in trouble.

I don't like the sound of it either. There must be a way around it. For us 24-year-olds, couldn't you just pull the REGULAR hatch release at the driver's seat and get out the back?

That still doesn't solve the problem for older people, children and malfunctions, though.

 

Install a clapper! *Clap on door locks, clap off door unlocks*

 

I went out to my xB to test this theory and I CAN'T use the unlock button , but CAN use the lock stem to unlock the door. This could be because I don't have the factory scion security though. I'm not sure, but I could still unlock the door from the inside with the lock stem.

 

Ra, that's exactly what we're thinking.

I just got together a letter for Scion, asking about this. A couple other items came to mind as I wrote them:

* what if the car catches fire--say, in an accident--and this mechanism engages for whatever reason? The occupants are trapped--in a burning car. Did Toyota Legal consider this?

* what is the failsafe behavior? Sure, I can put the key in and turn on the ignition to release the interlock; what if the battery is dead? Does this mechanism fail safe, with the interlock disengaged? (I'm guessing not, because that would mean that power is required to keep the interlock engaged under normal conditions; that would drain the battery.) Or does sudden loss of power not have any effect on the state of the interlock, leaving it "as-is"--even if that means all lock stems are non-functional? That would be bad.

Please, someone tell me that I am not the first person ever to think about these things. Please tell me that Toyota engineering thought through all of this and that Toyota offers a mechanism for changing this behavior, even if it means that a service tech has to do it via computer.

 

YEAH baby!

Knowing that it *can* be done is sometimes 95% of the battle. This is good news.

I will ask the salesman to confirm this behavior with a stock unit that doesn't have a security system on it.

 

I think Toyota might have a serious problem on their hands here. Especially if someone gets injured because of a malfunction.