Was looking at the Scion tC and was thinking how much better it would look with a good rear spoiler stock. That empty space some what detracks from the overall look IMO, but I am sure there is already a few aftermarket rear spoilers in the making. And as for the s/c model of the tC, will it have a scoop on the hood like other supercharged or turbocharged cars in its class.

as far as major exterior changes.... i think its fine as long as its lowered and has tint.

the rear wing accessory looks pretty nice and clean. it should be a good compliment to whatever a tc enthusiast thinks their car should look like.

the aftercooler is actually under the scoop on the WRX... on the neon, it is just for looks, the only thing that air scoop does is force air behind the engine to help eliminate some of the turbo's heat...

we don't need another "me too" car, just cause everybody else is doing it doesn't mean we should hope for it on the tC... people don't say that the WRX looks luxury, people don't think the Neon looks luxury... so don't emulate them if that is the look you want...

I personally like the rear of the car, but the M3 style lip spoiler will be a nice addition...

I always been a big fan of cars with spoilers, and I knew they used the scoop for something besides looks, just did not quite know what. Well when I get a tC I assure you that I wont be ricing it out, if you put that much work into it, might as well go all the way and not half assed. I'll be getting the s/c tC. And I intend on putting new hood for the weight reduction it has, and would like it to have a scoop on it, they look kick ___ IMO. Never looked under the hood of an Impreza WRX (they are nice cars), does the intercool mounted onto the hood or does it sit above the engine, because if it monted on the hood I want to do the same with my tC when I get it. Gives purpose to having that scoop other then looks.

well, the engine in a WRX is totally different... you have heard of a V-8, that is because 1/2 the cylinders are on one bank and 90 degree or 60 degrees away are the other 4... so they form a V... well, the WRX is a 4 cylinder and the banks are 180 degrees away, so you could call the engine a boxer or flat or horizontally opposed... this is how the VW BUg, Porsche 911, 912, 914, 356, 550 are all setup... the benefit is that the whole engine is much, much flatter - so this leaves room for a top mounted intercooler... for a typical horizontally mounted FWD inline 4... you pretty much need to route the ducting down to in front of the radiator and condensor...

also, the factory SC doesn't need a intercooler, it only compresses the air a small amount... so the air doesn't get as hot... so cooling is not near as beneficial, so the cost to benefit is pretty bad... we're talking a few horsepower for maybe $1000 to 1500...

As for replacement hoods, I saw a hatchback with a carbon fiber hatch, functions much like a carbon fiber hood. Would the weight reduction by replacing the hatch with carbon fiber be worth it or is the hatch not have enough weight where it would be worth it. And as for the engine, what is a good manufacture(s) of cold air intacks, and which have the best price to performacne boost, with in a 150.00-250.00 range. And I was also thinking that about boosting compression ratio on the supercharger, and would like to know how high I could increase compression ratio with out the need for a intercool system or comperising the integrity of the supercharger and the engine.

As for replacement hoods, I saw a hatchback with a carbon fiber hatch, functions much like a carbon fiber hood. Would the weight reduction by replacing the hatch with carbon fiber be worth it or is the hatch not have enough weight where it would be worth it. And as for the engine, what is a good manufacture(s) of cold air intacks, and which have the best price to performacne boost, with in a 150.00-250.00 range. And I was also thinking that about boosting compression ratio on the supercharger, and would like to know how high I could increase compression ratio with out the need for a intercool system or comperising the integrity of the supercharger and the engine.

ok, one question at a time...
#1 hatch... I guess you are saying the entire hatch?? yeah, you could save a ton of weight if you took out the back glass and all the metal that the hatch are made of... maybe 50lbs of savings?? of course seeing out the back window is nice... and you aren't gonna find an aftermarket carbon fiber hatch for the tC that will hold the stock glass...

#2 intake... price doesn't go hand in hand with performance, I know a bunch of guys that just get their own tubing... what matters is to develop a smooth, cool path for the air to go through... start with removing all the intake muffler, air box and ducting and see what room is available - the goal is to route the newer, larger air filter to a place where it will A- get a fresh supply of cool air and B- not drop below water in the event you have a heavy rain and finally C- have as little restriction and interruption to the air path until it hits the mass air flow sensor... APS has a system out right now, pics are already on the board of a baby blue tC with the intake and TRD springs...

#3 higher boost... the problem with higher boost is that when you compress air it gets hotter, so about the only way to avoid intercooling is to start with a cooler initial temp... so move to Alaska where it is below 30... I have heard of water injection schemes that shoot about 1 gallon of water per about 10 gallons of gas into the engine, not sure about longevity, but it helps the engine run cooler... all you need is a larger pulley to get more boost, but if the engine computer detects any hint of detonation (premature firing from overheated air/gas mixture) it will retard the spark and you will be making much less horsepower.. this is a whole new can of worms, don't think that you'll just bolt on a part in one hour and get 50 more hp... it will take TONS of time, patience and understanding... I recommend reading "Supercharged" by Corky Bell (available at any bookstore or Amazon)...

I can't think of other cars in the tC's class that have a hood scoop. The WRX and SRT-4, do but I wouldn't consider those to be in the same class unless they started selling for thouands less all of a sudden. The scoop on the Neon is pure rice. Chrysler thought adding holes all over the place would make the dopey looking Neon mean. The WRX uses the scoop to pass air through its intercooler. You can't really compare the engine layout of the Subaru since it's got a flat-4, which means there's room for the intercooler to sit above the block. Otherwise, you've got the Mustang which not only has a useless (large) hood scoop, but also faux side scoops, and fake rear diffuser.

Back in the mid to late 80's there were other tubocharged cars with hood scoops which fed air to thir intercoolers. Often times, the scoop was off center. I think that's where the trend started on the import side of things.

actually you should do some research before talking bad about any type of car. just cause you don't like srt-4 becasue you probably got beat by one doesn't mean you can trash it. the hood scoop feedd air directly over the turbo to help keep it cool. i'm sure if you got rid of this the snail would overheat, and the holes in the bumper weren't originally there, they were added in because the car actually needed extra cooling. sorry to get so crappy, but i hate it when people bring in there personal agenda's when talking technical.

p.s. no hard feelings...lol

I can't think of other cars in the tC's class that have a hood scoop. The WRX and SRT-4, do but I wouldn't consider those to be in the same class unless they started selling for thouands less all of a sudden. The scoop on the Neon is pure rice. Chrysler thought adding holes all over the place would make the dopey looking Neon mean. The WRX uses the scoop to pass air through its intercooler. You can't really compare the engine layout of the Subaru since it's got a flat-4, which means there's room for the intercooler to sit above the block. Otherwise, you've got the Mustang which not only has a useless (large) hood scoop, but also faux side scoops, and fake rear diffuser.

Back in the mid to late 80's there were other tubocharged cars with hood scoops which fed air to thir intercoolers. Often times, the scoop was off center. I think that's where the trend started on the import side of things.


The Neon doesn't need hoodscoops to look mean. I don't care how it looks or if you like it, but if flat out obliterates anything in its class and can hang with cars far more expensive than itself.


People that are talking about increasing boost pressure and trying to develop intercoolers reeaaaaallllly need to do some research. If it were that easy to build an intercooler, do you really think all the kits would be so expensive? BTW, if you intercool a car making low boost, you will actually lose power. Intercoolers zap about 1 psi across the board as you pass air through them. So, clearly, there is no advantage to running an I/C on a car making less than 10psi.

Furthermore, as soon as you go messing around with the TRD blower trying to raise boost, I can guarantee your warranty will be voided on the S/C unit itself and very well could be voided on the entire motor all together.


I hate to burst bubbles, but this is not a performance car....and it never will be..at least not with the TRD blower. When HKS and company start developing kits (if and when) than maybe we might be able to call this a fast car.

Until than, it isnt and all the hood scoops and intercoolers aren't going to help you much.

actually you should do some research before talking bad about any type of car. just cause you don't like srt-4 becasue you probably got beat by one doesn't mean you can trash it. the hood scoop feedd air directly over the turbo to help keep it cool. i'm sure if you got rid of this the snail would overheat, and the holes in the bumper weren't originally there, they were added in because the car actually needed extra cooling. sorry to get so crappy, but i hate it when people bring in there personal agenda's when talking technical.

p.s. no hard feelings...lol
Get real. If the turbo needed constant airflow over it, a better system would have been devised. There is no specific ducting to ensure all the air goes over only the turbo. As it is, it only vaugely dumps air over the entire engine. Sure, some of it makes it over the turbo, but to say it's some sort of specific application is silly. Explain to me why the PT Cruiser GT, which has the same engine, lacks any hood scoop. If it's so critical to the vehicle's operation, I would assume Chrysler would have made sure the PT had it as well. If underhood heat were an issue, using vents on the hood would be more effective than trying to blow hot air down under the vehicle.

Not to mention the turbo itself, if it needed to be air cooled, would have all sorts of heatsinks on it to make sure it had maximum surface area to radiate as much heat as possible. At the same time, you're neglecting to realize just about every vehicle out there today comes equipped with a some for of liquid cooling. Why wouldn't that system be utilized as it is far more efficent?

Hey, it's a styling element. That's fine. It's not the first or last car that will use such items. But I'm simply not going to believe something that the marketing department came up with as the undeniable truth.

The Neon doesn't need hoodscoops to look mean. I don't care how it looks or if you like it, but if flat out obliterates anything in its class and can hang with cars far more expensive than itself.
It is very possible for something to be fast and at the same time look tacky. They aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

The Neon doesn't need hoodscoops to look mean. I don't care how it looks or if you like it, but if flat out obliterates anything in its class and can hang with cars far more expensive than itself.
It is very possible for something to be fast and at the same time look tacky. They aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

This I agree with. However, I don't think the SRT-4 looks tacky :wink:



Adrian

the SRT-4 is nice but i don't want one because i've never liked the neon.

dude, okay, go to the dodge dealership tomorrow, crack open the hood of an srt-4 and tell me that there is no ducting for the air to go directly to the turbo, and then look to the right and tell me that there isn't a place for the ducting to be cut to drop air directly over the air box, don't post what you don't know, or if you can't make it to the dealership just look here at the third post...

http://srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7320

dude, okay, go to the dodge dealership tomorrow, crack open the hood of an srt-4 and tell me that there is no ducting for the air to go directly to the turbo, and then look to the right and tell me that there isn't a place for the ducting to be cut to drop air directly over the air box, don't post what you don't know, or if you can't make it to the dealership just look here at the third post...

http://srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7320

also, if you look down on the engine you can see plenty of daylight... and since cars cause a slight negative pressure under them and the ram air of the ducting will cause a slight postive pressure... you'll see plenty of flow... not quite as much as the turbo would see if it was just mounted directly on the hood, but plenty of air to help keep it cool...

dude, okay, go to the dodge dealership tomorrow, crack open the hood of an srt-4 and tell me that there is no ducting for the air to go directly to the turbo, and then look to the right and tell me that there isn't a place for the ducting to be cut to drop air directly over the air box, don't post what you don't know, or if you can't make it to the dealership just look here at the third post...

http://srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7320
The airbox? I thought it's supposed to go over the turbo. So now It's cooling a piece of plastic? :roll:

also, if you look down on the engine you can see plenty of daylight... and since cars cause a slight negative pressure under them and the ram air of the ducting will cause a slight postive pressure... you'll see plenty of flow... not quite as much as the turbo would see if it was just mounted directly on the hood, but plenty of air to help keep it cool...
If the car had a significant low presure area under it, why would they have tacked on that supposedly functional wing to decrease lift? Almost all cars on the road today create lift at speeds, given their shape (flat on the bottom, rounded up top). Thus, the air must travel a greater distance around the top of a car creating a lower relative pressure. While it's possible the movement of air is enough to create a lower pressure arear in relation to the underhood area, I doubt it's all that effective as it is.

izero, all you gotta do is cut out a small piece from the hood ducting and from the air box, or with an aftermarket intake, then air will go directly into the intake , instead of using all underhood air. and the aerodynamics lesson, thanks, but i am getting ready to graduate in engineering, and if your point was completely correct then all cars would create downforce like a freakin enzo, i'm just saying, now that this thread has been hijacked, that the hood is functional not rice, that is what started the whole topic. catch ya guys later

jason


p.s. the wing is only functional at about 100+ and probably doesn't create that much downforce, most wings on any steet car are purely asthetic, NOT ALL, but most

Well I know there are places where they can modify the black boxs programming to compensate for the increased boost, and since I am some what new to car tuning, I figured have a professional do it for me while I read up on it. And I was thinking about the same thing jdgeary siad, why did some of you hijack the thread I started?

dude, here is the deal, do whatever you think will look best and go with the look that you like, sorry to get so offtopic on your thread, but you are gonna have people on here telling you to do something and another person tell you that is a stupid idea, and to do something else. just go with what you like.

izero, all you gotta do is cut out a small piece from the hood ducting and from the air box, or with an aftermarket intake, then air will go directly into the intake , instead of using all underhood air. and the aerodynamics lesson, thanks, but i am getting ready to graduate in engineering, and if your point was completely correct then all cars would create downforce like a freakin enzo, i'm just saying, now that this thread has been hijacked, that the hood is functional not rice, that is what started the whole topic. catch ya guys later
Then please explain why I'm wrong person who is "getting ready to graduate in engineering". Also, why would anyone need to modify a functional part to make it functional?

Well I know there are places where they can modify the black boxs programming to compensate for the increased boost, and since I am some what knew to the tuning, I figured have a professional do it for me while I read up on it. And I was thinking about the same thing jdgeary siad, why did some of you hijack the thread I started?
So you're going to increase the boost on the supercharger with an ECU upgrade? You should ask the almost engineer how to do that.

you feel like arguing izero or what??? did you go look at the pics i referenced??? the hood is still functional even if the owner doesn't decide to cut that section out, the ducting from the factory dumps all the incoming air over the turbo....calm down dude.

and don't mock me about what i said about engineering, i wasn't braggin, i was just saying that i understood the topic, and there are alot of people that get on these forums and just talk out there a$$ about topics they know very little about and get away with it because alot of other people don't understand "low pressure zones" or even why they aerodynamically exist.

i'm just tryin to clear stuff up, don't get so ticked off dude, if you don't believe me, look it up for yourself, it's cool

Well mgithens mentioned that increasing boost might cause a premature firing from the higher heat from increased pressure, the ECU would retard the spark. Thats why I mention playing with the black boxes programming so it would not do that.

nobody knows what boost the stock s/c will be running yet, at least i haven't read it anywhere, maybe somebody does, but you will probably need to add an intercooler to raise the boost significantly, also since it is a s/c you are gonna have to change the pulley to increase the boost.

by black box, i hope that you mean the computer, changing it or reprogramming, or even an aftermarket piggy back unit after increasing boost probably won't cure detonation problems, use high octane gas, and intercool it.

Well mgithens mentioned that increasing boost might cause a premature firing from the higher heat from increased pressure, the ECU would retard the spark. Thats why I mention playing with the black boxes programming so it would not do that.

wait, so your saying that retarding the spark as a safety feature to keep you from destroying your motor is something a computer tweak will fix?? this is beyond your understanding of why this safety feature is in place... when the engine fires on it's own, this is called detonation, it only takes a few occurences to blow a motor... this isn't something a tweak will fix, this is simple kinematics... the amount of forces that a crank sees is already a huge amount of stress, if we built the cranks and journals strong enough to handle this detonation the engine would weight 10 times as much...

so, to keep it light... this isn't even remotely the solution... cooler intake temps is the solution and the possible ways to do this would be #1 move to Alaska, #2 aftercooler, #3 lower boost, #4 water injection... and I think those are the only possible solutions... oh yeah, you could use aviation fuel... at 3X the cost, you can have that one...

If the car had a significant low presure area under it, why would they have tacked on that supposedly functional wing to decrease lift? Almost all cars on the road today create lift at speeds, given their shape (flat on the bottom, rounded up top). Thus, the air must travel a greater distance around the top of a car creating a lower relative pressure. While it's possible the movement of air is enough to create a lower pressure arear in relation to the underhood area, I doubt it's all that effective as it is.

okay, so now your apparently a aerodynamics expert... so let's talk shop about positive and negative pressures... where do you think the air is going that goes through your radiator?? why do you think it is going there??

have you ever heard of something called "Cowl Induction"?? well it turns out that pulling air near the windshield instead of using RAM AIR, is a extremely good source of slightly pressurized air, as it turns out when you "steer" air up and over a surface you get this positive pressure... so we are clear that there is positive pressure at the hood... right?? this is why Cowl Induction and RAM AIR are so effective... (for reference I think it takes about 150mph to get 1psi of "boost" from a RAM AIR intake - it might be slightly faster, but I can't recall the exact speed - seems like 120mph makes about 0.5 psi)

so now to the underside of the car... you mention lift... yeah, your right cars do make lift and we do counteract that lift with spoilers... so we mount the spoilers directly to the hood of the car because of the lift right there...?? NO!!!!!! we put the spoilers where the lift is a problem... so that's why to "spoil" the air in the front of the car, we use air dams - this is why all these T-boy ricers get the ground effects - they are a racer part and they help minimize air from flowing below the car, this helps the slight negative pressure... at highway speeds your electric fan in your Honda is off, because the slight positive pressure in front of the radiator is enough to cause plenty of flow through the engine compartment...

this is by no means a dynamics class, but don't question what you dont' understand... you aren't going to learn the fluid mechanics of car design from Car&Driver... you do have some info, but not enough to understand the point of my post... read AND learn... take my info with a grain of salt, when you see sources to back up what I say THEN you will see where i am coming from... but don't contradict when you don't have the full story...

Okay, so tweaking the vehicles computers wont help with that problem, thats all I wanted to know.

thanks for backing me up a bit mgithens, i didn't want to give an aerodynamics lesson, but hopefully something was learned from yours... :)

have you ever heard of something called "Cowl Induction"?? well it turns out that pulling air near the windshield instead of using RAM AIR, is a extremely good source of slightly pressurized air, as it turns out when you "steer" air up and over a surface you get this positive pressure... so we are clear that there is positive pressure at the hood... right?? this is why Cowl Induction and RAM AIR are so effective... (for reference I think it takes about 150mph to get 1psi of "boost" from a RAM AIR intake - it might be slightly faster, but I can't recall the exact speed - seems like 120mph makes about 0.5 psi)
That's interesting, but the SRT-4 in question has neither ram air nor cowl induction.

so now to the underside of the car... you mention lift... yeah, your right cars do make lift and we do counteract that lift with spoilers... so we mount the spoilers directly to the hood of the car because of the lift right there...?? NO!!!!!! we put the spoilers where the lift is a problem... so that's why to "spoil" the air in the front of the car, we use air dams - this is why all these T-boy ricers get the ground effects - they are a racer part and they help minimize air from flowing below the car, this helps the slight negative pressure... at highway speeds your electric fan in your Honda is off, because the slight positive pressure in front of the radiator is enough to cause plenty of flow through the engine compartment...
Positive and negative in relation to what?

the srt4 has a hood scoop that has ducting in the hood to drop the air directly on the turbo....that is what we were talking about, i've said this about 4 times here already, so now i'm done, if you don't understand that, definately not my prob....later
:x
jason

Somebody posted on the last page something about injecting 1 gallon of water into the engine for every ten gallons of gasoline.

Every time I hear about water in an engine it reminds me of a job that I used to have. I was a service advisor in a BMW dealership.

One day I was walking through the shop and I noticed a motor hanging on a stand. There was a hole about three inches in diameter in the bottom of the block. I had never seen anything like it before, so I asked the tech what the deal was.

"Water is an uncompressable liquid," he started. "The air intake on the 328i that this motor used to be in is located more or less at the lower corner of the bumper facing forward. Thats great if you're trying to collect cold air, but not that great if you drive through a deep puddle and get water in the engine. Once its in there, there are only a couple of ways for it to escape. If you're lucky, it goes out with the exhaust. If you're not..." and he pointed at the hole.

Yeah. Water in the engine is not good.

jdgeary, some people are just hard headed it seems... :D

but the SRT-4 ain't no joke...doesn't matter if some things are there for a reason or if they are there just to look spiffy...the SRT-4 is one mean machine.