View Full Version : ZPI Stage 0 w/ water injection (chemical intercooler)
04-27-2006, 02:05 AM
Just wanted to see if there is interest in following my path to setting up a chemical intercooler for the ZPI Stage 0. I looked at all the alternatives and water injection looked like a cost effective method of cooling the inlet charge to the throttle body and keeping the turbo install relatively straight forward.
I'm done doing the math for the injection rate. Looks like at 5 PSI and 6500 it will net about 75F temp rise on the compressor outlet and this is conteracted by 2.75 gallons per hour of water injection.
Got most of the parts already installed just need to finish the wiring and get the correct size nozzle and test it while the car is NA to get all the bugs worked out. Even at NA 1.5 GPH of water can be used to lower the inlet charge about 50 degrees to combat the hot texas weather.
Also need to get the turbo kit -but all I can do is wait till ZPI ships my kit. I would hope to have the kit in my hands by late May.
I'm working to upload some pics on my Car Domain page.
Here is the link for the pictures, they are on the bottom of the page.
Here is the pump install it's just below of the brake-fluid reservoir
Here is the "front" end of the control system. Red button is manual water spray, first toggle is for manual, automatic or off (test the system with no spraying). The second toggle controls a 12 water solenoid this activates an additional nozzle to spray in tandem with the main nozzle. Last button activates the proportional controller, this regulates the duty cycle of the pump it starts to spray at 2PSI and continues to increase the duty cycle to full on when you reach 5PSI. The system lets you adjust both the "start" point of spray and at what PSI point you are going to be at full spray.
This is a shot of the 2-quart tank that's used to store the distilled water that I'm injecting into the throttle body. It's directly underneath the battery tray.
04-27-2006, 04:30 AM
How about a comparison between water injection versus Cryo2? down side to CO2 would be external cooling and not internal combustion chamber cooling. do you plan to just inject in the piping or at the manifold for the engine?
04-27-2006, 04:32 AM
getting a stage 0? I'm about to get one too. Tell me how the install goes when you get it.
04-27-2006, 12:10 PM
I'll spray right after the compressor outlet as it makes it's way to the throttle body.
Currently on my CAI I've got a temp sensor installed upstream of the PCV hose. Eventhough the gauge resolution is not the best since it goes all the way up to 280F. I've been able to log temps into the throttle body of 135F in stop and go traffic (heat soak baby!) and the needle lets me know when I'm under 100F, which is really what I want to know.
Once the turbo is installed I will use the gauge as feed back to alert me of any problems if the temp start to creep up.
The cool thing is the controller is variable so I can dial in more cooling as a function of boost pressure.
I think the system is overkill for 5-7 PSI of boost. but I still feel that some measure is better than none to combat the 100+ Texas heat. I sure would hate to feed my engine 200F air... and expect it to work well with no engine management.
04-27-2006, 06:05 PM
good to see some people looking into this, its a very cost efficient setup. Check valves and solenoids are your friends! Also keep an eye on your nozzles and make sure they stay clean. Check out Aquamist's forum if you havent already, a lot of great info on there if you understand the technical aspect.
05-30-2006, 04:54 PM
bumpity bump bump bump
05-30-2006, 06:40 PM
We are currently working on a bolt in kit for the tC. No eta, but it'll be a good setup for any forced induction system on the tC.`
We've used methanol/water mix on our cars with good results. We're big fans.
05-30-2006, 06:56 PM
booo eric your gonna still my thunda as the only turbo in tx! oh well good to have ya!
05-30-2006, 10:40 PM
I think I'll wait til after I get EMS so I can tune it better. But it is definately on the list to add. I'd like to see some other companies doing the port, polish, valve job like the ZPI Stage 1 before I do this mod.
05-31-2006, 04:07 AM
I already have my water injection system, I was testing mine as an N/A set up for the last serial months. I wanted to test it during the summer month here in AZ at 115 degrees. It does make a difference on the really hot days from heat soak and asphalt that is a sweltering 140 degrees. On the dyno the water injection made no real significant change in horse power with an N/A setup, which is what we expected. It is likely I will have a modified version of the one I have now modified by ZPI.
05-31-2006, 04:07 AM
I've added (3) more items to the DIY water injection article on my car domains page.
Water tank install http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2326730/1
Intake air temp install http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2326730/5
Control System install http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2326730/4
I've already tested the system in the garage. I'm very close to spraying on the open road...
Up next is to order a PLX M300 wideband. Next comes the turbo.
Peteyd, and you thought all my getting rid of the CEL light questions where just plain curiosity :lalala:
08-22-2006, 05:36 PM
Finished my install a few hours ago. Went on a little joy ride :lalala: Cel light came on because of the cat efficiency (I checked the code) -This is to be expected. Car idles like a champ and runs strong. Open wastegate is a bit loud when you stomp it -but most times all you hear is the whine and woosh of the turbo spooling which is so nice that I don't run the stereo. I swear this turbo is music to my ears :love:
Had a lot of fun running to the Autoparts and hardware store... It seems the most of the hardware included in the kit is incorrect. Screws are either too short or too long. Bag of like 10 clamps and only 2 fit the kit. The list goes on and on. A ton of time was spent running back and forth getting odds and ends. I sure wish that a parts list of the correct parts where included along with the kit. This would of saved a great deal on time and effort. What's the point in including a bunch of hardware that won't fit -It makes no sense to me.
The kits have been changed to require weld and or tap on the drain pan and tap on the oil return line. I just thought someone would like to know as the new Stage 0 kits are a bit different than the original kit that was out there for a while that Kaeon reviewed. I got the oil pan included with mine -but I paid for that. I believe the new kits no longer come with pans. You also have to tap the engine block for the oil t-fitting, I was not ready for that but luckly I had the 1/8 npt tap that I use for the water injection nozzles. The wierd thing is that the factory oil sender does not use 1/8 npt -It's some wierd metric that's close but not the same. I was lucky that I had replaced my oil sensor for the sender included in my oil pressure gauge and it fit right into the 1/8npt tee that was included with the kit.
New insruction where supposed to be available for the Stage 0 like two weeks ago -but I still have not seen them uploaded on ZPI's site. I used Kaeon's FAQ and some other pics I found in SL. The fitup of the kit is okay, still some tweaking needs to be made to make it a true bolt-on kit. I cutting a few inches of the intake pipe on the air filter side. The pipe was going too deep in the cone and cutting off some air-flow. Also the bolt that secures the down-pipe to the engine block did not line up. I belive that the down-pipe angle is off by a few degrees because the exhaust manifold did not want to lay flat on the exhaust side of the block. I loosened up the turbo and the down-pipe but it still was not right. I slowly torqued the header screws until it was flush with the block -but I'm sure that extra stress on the screws was needed to make it seal against the exhaust manifold gasket. I hope that the studs don't give up the ghost. I also had to get smaller bolts to connect the down-pipe to the s-pipe -It took me a couple of tries to get the donut joint to seal properly.
Here are some pics of my setup:
I'm still installing more parts. Got to re-wire my wideband A/F and my intake air temp sensor appears to have been damaged when I moved it from the Injen CAI to the new pipe. Those will be coming in latter in the week. Also have blue-emanage in a box waiting to be installed.
I'm wore out from the install. :relief: Started Friday night and finished Sunday evening -but the Turbo works, the wategate works, my progressive water injection controller works, the car runs great and the driving experience is just incredible!
I don't really feel that the BOV is needed for Automatics. I heard just a little bit of compressor chirping-stalling but it was only very limited. Kenny gave me good advice on the BOV, automatics don't reallt need it (If you are going to stay at 5 PSI). The ZPI turbo spools as soon as you press the accelerator. I could get my 5 PSI of boost when ever I wanted: from a stop sign, on the high-way, on the on ramp. This is starting to sound like one of those Cat in the Hat books "and in a box, and with a fox, I will not eat green eggs and ham..."
Note: Screws included to mount the wastegate are class 2. Class 2 hardness screws do not belong in anything that even gets close to an engine. Do yourself a big favor and replace them with hardened alloy cap-head screws these are the black oxide looking one's amd are rated 12.9 for hardness. Anti-seize thread lubricant should be used everywhere.
I talked to Kenny and He said the manifold was not sitting flush because it was hitting the coolant line to heater core. I checked and yep, the coolant line had a small dent where it came in contact with the turbo-flange. You need to bend the small tab that holds the coolant line back with a small hammer. Don't hit on the line -hit the metal bracket that's holding the line in place. I put an open ended wrench on the bracket and it did not take much to bend the bracket back some.
Other stage 0 members should check the clearance between these two parts to prevent any problems in the future.
I also got the wide-band working now and the car is running very safe and very rich underboost. I was getting A/F 10-11 when the car spooled up and the MAF started flowing. When starting from a stand still and playing with the throttle to keep the car under boost I did notice a short period under boost that kept the A/F at 14 -but then it's started to come down fast as the RPM started climbing. It really looks like the MAF is the one doing the controlling of the A/F even if you are not WOT. It just dumps more fuel as the air flow increases into the engine.
Air temps into the throttle body are a bit higher than what I expected even under no boost going down the high-way. The temps are about 40 degrees higher than ambient. When I was NA the air going to the throttle body eventually got close to ambient air. After a boost period ends :lalala: the intake pipe heats up an additional 10-15 degrees -but then it comes down afterwards.
I will datalogg some more parameters this week to see how the timing is affected (if any) when I'm injecting water. I will also add the aditional water selenoid so I can inject even more water. I swear 108F Texas weather is very hard on the tC.
08-22-2006, 07:05 PM
very nice, glad to hear it's running well. how are you gonna go about getting rid of that cel tho? some good info to hear considering i'll be installing my kit on sunday
08-22-2006, 09:05 PM
Good job. Looks sweet. Glad you were up to the challenge. Good you did not bag your tC like BlackSandTurboPearlTc because off problems.
08-22-2006, 10:01 PM
very nice, glad to hear it's running well. how are you gonna go about getting rid of that cel tho? some good info to hear considering i'll be installing my kit on sunday
While I rewired my PLXM-300 wide band I went ahead and isntalled the anti-fouler (2) of them with the one where the 02 sensor screws into drilled out to 1/2" ID. I've made two trips over 50 miles total and still no cell. All it took was a 20 mile drive to get the cel last time with no foulers installed... So 50 miles cel free -Lets see how long this will last.
Did more A/F tracking and it looks good. Car richens up nicely every time the boost comes on. I'm not even sure if I will install the emanage at this point. I still have not done a real detailed analysis of ignition timing over a wide range of RPM's and MAF but this is coming soon. I was in a hurry this afternoon and forgot to plug the laptop to the ODBD scanner -but this will come very soon, I promise.
Intake temps are about 50F higher than when the car was NA, this is not under boost going down the highway. Temps when the traffic are real similar to when I was running the injen CAI.
Temps rise about 10-15F after boost is applied -but the do back down again. Note I'm spraying after the turbo.
I wonder if it would be a good idea to add a spray nozzle at the inlet of the turbo?
For the record an Injen Axle-back is the only other additional component that installed on the engine at this time. I mean appart from all the other gizmos -but those don't really count.
08-22-2006, 10:36 PM
^^Do you plan on getting a dyno run soon. I am eager to see what your setup puts down.
08-22-2006, 11:22 PM
08-27-2006, 07:48 PM
Well it's been a couple of days since my last ecu reset. Fuel economy looks to be back in check (I will have numbers latter in the week).
The bad news is that the ECU is leaning the car out :doh: It seems that everyday the car keeps the A/F for a longer time at 14:1 while I'm accelerating at full boost. Eventually it drops from to 13:1 and then to 12:1 like at 3000 RPM but I have the feeling it's just the MAF that's driving the fuel usage right now.
The car is pulling timming even when I'm using water injection. It's pulling out about 10 degrees when compared to when the car was NA
I remember the day after the kit was installed I was hitting AFR of 11:1 and 12:1 all the time while under boost. Even saw 10:1 every now and then.
I have recorded knock (seen as a total dump of ingition timing) only like 3 times this week. It was over in 1/2 second and it raised the timing back up even as the vehicle continued to accelerate. I'm not logging the A/F right now so it's hard to determine at what point the A/F when it happened.
I pulled the plugs out yesterday and they look fine.
I will move the water injection upstream of the turbo to test it's effect on overall lower temps of the turbine and housing at all times not just when I'm at full boost. I'm hoping to remove more total heat from the system.
As far as intake temps they are really just as high in a traffic jam as when I had the Injen CAI. I got real close to 190F (Keep in mind it's like 106F outside) with both setups.
I've bought an emanage-blue. I'm in the process of getting the info to see if A/F from my wide-band can be logged into the pressure sensor port of the emanage-blue. This will let me plot part throttle A/F and hopefully will point me in the right direction as to what needs to be done to add fuel for part-throttle boosting.
Anything above 35% throttle will make full boost in a Stage 0.
The car is running with no CEL -That was taken care of with antifoulers at the beginning of last week.
08-27-2006, 08:14 PM
I dont see it clearly, what are you using to control when the water injection is turned on? What size injector are you using? Are you able to increase or reduce the size of the water injector? I know that I have 5 of them based on the whp the car is putting out.
sorry for the typo
08-27-2006, 08:29 PM
Distilled Water is injected as a function of boost pressure. Pump is 100% on when boost is 5 or greater. I'm using a little less than 2 Quarts of water with every full tank of gas.
I'm using M2 nozzle, pump has 150PSI switch installed. Spraying at the outlet of the trubo. Not before the MAF like some other folks are doing.
I was not planning on running a meth/water mixture but for 6PSI of boost my setup is already overkill.
I've got M1-M5 nozzles in my arsenal...
08-27-2006, 08:34 PM
what gauge wire did you use for running the switch?
08-27-2006, 08:42 PM
I'm not running a switch. I'm using a progressive water injection control from devil's own. The technical aspects of the water injection system are outlined in the first post of the thread.
I'm running a GM 2BAR MAP sensor that's reading from the same place as my vac/boost gauge. The MAP sensor's output is controlling the progressive controller -which in turn controlls the duty cycle of the shureflow water pump.
08-27-2006, 08:47 PM
Water injection is designed to control detonation, this should be used when you want to push more boost. More boost requires air and fuel, in this case the amount of water you are pushing is quenching the intake charge/mixture. This is kicking the CEL.
Did you speak to Kenny on this?
08-27-2006, 08:54 PM
I have no CEL. Kenny said I should be able to up the boost with water/meth injection. But right now inlet charge temps and A/F control are my two top priorities.
The water will fix the inlet temps, but the A/F can only be fixed with one of two things. Reseting the ECU every night or getting e-mananage and get the car tuned -but I've already seen the ECU make "corrections" to the part-throttle A/F to try and bring it back to 14. This second part is what worries me the most.
08-27-2006, 09:41 PM
08-29-2006, 03:26 AM
think TECs - IC and fuel
08-29-2006, 04:41 AM
I reset the ECU again. The AF dropped 2 full points! Now I'm back in the 12:1 range when accelerating. The car is running much better with the extra fuel. I did get e-manage installed at the same time -but I'm not running any correction at this time.
Like my good friend said :Adding more Fuel is cheaper than adding a new engine... I should be tuned by the end of the week.
Heck I might put a toggle switch on the 20A Fuel injection fuse. It's like the cheap way of running more fuel on FI tC's with no engine management.
08-29-2006, 03:09 PM
thats what I was gonna do with my xB...wire in a switch to the EFI fuse and just reset it once a day when I got in the car in the morning...it was annoying just going under the hood and pulling it everytime
08-30-2006, 10:24 PM
Went back to my data loggs when the tC was NA and I found that the car when accelerating from a stop (or close to one) had a pre-knock ignition timming dump a couple of times in my 20-30 minute commute.
I was getting worried that my timming dumps(pre-Knock) where being caused by my Stage 0 -but that was not the case. They have always been there -Just did not pay much attention to them.
The ECU is still wanting to run 14:1 AFR when under boost at part throttle until I get to about 3000 RPM -Then it richens up.
I think that since I'm running water injection that it's not dumping the timing even when basically running lean 13-14:1 AFR.
I will pick up some methanol today and test the effects of spraying water/meth on the ignition timming trims from the ECU.
05-18-2007, 07:18 PM
05-18-2007, 10:31 PM
Great write-up and glad to hear everything is working well. Since you're great setup was created out of creativity and research, there are some awesome water/meth inject. kits out now through snow performance, zpi, et cetera. Great work. Also, thanks for the numbers!
05-18-2007, 11:03 PM
This is a really old post, i don't think he even has a TC anymore, but a great write up for those planning on the stage 0( thought i'm sure ZPI has worked out most of the bugs)
this guy Eric-tc was a bit of a tuner prodigy.
05-21-2007, 12:22 AM
I still check-in every couple of days to see what the crew is up to.
I traded in the tC a couple of months ago for a Mazdaspeed 3.
The family is going to be growing shortly and I really did not feel like wrestlling a baby-car carrier in and out of a 2-door coupe for the next 5 years. The tC was also not liking the turbo too much either. I ended up re-building the automatic transmission -I think I did too much street-tuning ;) anyway
I got me the a fun to drive 4-door family friendly ride. Red Mazdaspeed 3 w/ a 6-speed cost about the same as a 07 Camry but is a whole lot more fun to drive... Punch the car in 3rd and it makes me smile everytime.
The bad part is that I'm now addicted to boost :)