To all you Scion salesmen (or women) out there, will you be selling your tC's at MSRP or will you be putting on ADM?

Definition: ADM = Additional Dealer Mark-up.
Thats what they call it down south at least.

MSRP Pure price!

MSRP!!!!

$MSRP...why ____ people off!!

Always MSRP.

8) Sweet! Honest car dealers...

also, is Scion going to be offering any special financing options to go along with the tC launch?

I know that your credit score (+etc.) ultimately affects your % and terms, just wondering if they were posting anything.

rates will be based only on that months promotion..so i dont think we will know until July 1st

MSRP. This has been discussed by several dealers and the concensus has been that it would be better to live with lower initial gross profits and product shortages than to ____ off the customer base. In the long term, its a better way to do things and keeps the integrity of the Pure Price system.

As for rates, don't look for anything beyond what we currently have. This varies by region, but here in the Central Atlantic Region, tier 1 is at 4.4% and tier 2 is 5.3%. The 1.9% we have on some Toyota's is and incentivized rate, meaning the manufacturer buys down the standard rate to help move units that need help.

if you can lock it in before july (meaning purchase your car b4 july1st) you can get down to 4.25. but who knows what itll climb to in july, especially with the way things are looking :roll:

With Scions, the "ADM" usually takes the form of a "documentation fee" tacked on at the end of the transaction. This lets the dealers crow about selling at MSRP but still raise the real price to the customer. Make sure you ask your salesman about non-governmental fees early on in the transaction, but don't expect a straight answer without some probing.

"Pure Price" translates to "We charge everyone the same price today." That's all. Dealers are free to set whatever price they wish, but in most cases this has meant MSRP. Remembering that most other cars sell for well under MSRP, so getting a Scion at MSRP isn't all that great for the customer. The dealers, of course, love the guaranteed profit margin.

With Scions, the "ADM" usually takes the form of a "documentation fee" tacked on at the end of the transaction. .

C'mon George, every car that rolls out of a dealership has the exact same Doc fee, whether it's something we're not making a lot of money on (i.e. scions, corollas, echos) or something we make a ton of money on. To say that the ADM takes the form of Doc fees for Scions is just inaccurate.

Doc fees are legitimate processing and handling fees that dealerships ask for in return for doing the DMV paperwork and arranging your reg and plates. Most dealerships ask a reasonable price, ours is $45.

I DO agree with you that some dealerships flat out rip people off on this. I would never pay a Doc fee of over $100, as this is just gouging in my personal opinion. This is another debate all together though.

To say we charge Doc fees to make money on Scions in lieu of ADM is wrong. The same Doc fees are charged to every deal no matter what they customer buys.

"Pure Price" translates to "We charge everyone the same price today." That's all. Dealers are free to set whatever price they wish, but in most cases this has meant MSRP. Remembering that most other cars sell for well under MSRP, so getting a Scion at MSRP isn't all that great for the customer. The dealers, of course, love the guaranteed profit margin.

I'd love it a whole lot more if that margin was more than $650 gross! LOL. Seriously George, in exchange for an easy process, we accept lower gross profits and I am actually satisfied with that. Its a mutally beneficial trade-off.

[quote Remembering that most other cars sell for well under MSRP, so getting a Scion at MSRP isn't all that great for the customer. The dealers, of course, love the guaranteed profit margin.[/quote]

Also remember "most" cars have around 10-12% :shock: markup from cost to MSRP which the scions do not. The Scions also do not have holdback like "most" cars. One more thing, the auto industry has always had one of the smallest profit margins in the retail sector. I think if the dealers who post on this forum were just out for profit many of them would go back their Toyota sides of the dealerships where profits are well above Scion in dollar amount and percentage.

All of you are getting a fantastic car at would could be considered well under what this car would "list" or actually sell for if made by any other auto company.

And I for one would never go back to our Toyota side for more profit, I love these cars and customers too much :D !

they might not have a ADM but watch out for the little things, my dealer tried to put the $200 window vin # Etching fee on the deal. I told them no... It only took me talking to the general sales manger to take it off my bill.

Ah, the salesmen protest! :)


C'mon George, every car that rolls out of a dealership has the exact same Doc fee, whether it's something we're not making a lot of money on (i.e. scions, corollas, echos) or something we make a ton of money on. To say that the ADM takes the form of Doc fees for Scions is just inaccurate.
The fact that everyone who shops at your dealership get stuck with a junk fee doesn't change the fact that:

Additional Dealer Markup = more money out of the customer's pocket and into the dealer's
Documentation Fee = more money out of the customer's pocket and into the dealer's

From the customer's end, there's no difference except that the documentation fee is less obvious.


I'd love it a whole lot more if that margin was more than $650 gross! LOL. Seriously George, in exchange for an easy process, we accept lower gross profits and I am actually satisfied with that. Its a mutally beneficial trade-off.
In conventional auto sales, many dealers are happy to sell at invoice and live on the 2%-3% holdback. That's $300-$450 gross on a $15K car. Suddenly a guaranteed $650 gross isn't all that bad!


Also remember "most" cars have around 10-12% :shock: markup from cost to MSRP which the scions do not. The Scions also do not have holdback like "most" cars. One more thing, the auto industry has always had one of the smallest profit margins in the retail sector. I think if the dealers who post on this forum were just out for profit many of them would go back their Toyota sides of the dealerships where profits are well above Scion in dollar amount and percentage.
How do we know that a number of salesmen haven't followed exactly that route? At least with Scion you don't have to compete with a dozen other salesmen, as well as spend your days haggling with customers.

I don't know of any dealership that is run for charitable reasons. The entire goal is to make money and as much of it as possible. I cannot speak to the motivations of the salesmen who post here except to say that they seem to be surviving.

If you think that the retail auto business has a small profit margin, you should check out the retail grocery business! 2% is fantastic there, and they aren't selling $15k to every customer either! Frankly, I don't see any basis for the car salesman's whines of poverty, as car dealerships seem to be in better shape than most businesses. Our local Toyota dealer just built a $$$ multistory parking structure!

All of you are getting a fantastic car at would could be considered well under what this car would "list" or actually sell for if made by any other auto company.
Perhaps. Perhaps not. Would a Cube sell for more than an xB? Could Toyota have sold the xB to the dealers for $2K less? The only way we will find out is when there is more competition. As long as Toyota is selling all the xBs they import, there is no reason to change the price. What Toyota does with the price of all the leftover 2004 xAs will be very instructive!

George

I love it.

Regardless of how a forum starts, once George gets involved, it becomes a sounding board for his anti-dealer politics!

It seems that no matter what any of us (dealers) do, George will somehow have his Cheerios ____ed in.

We give up George. You're right. Car dealers shouldn't be allowed profit, ever. What we do is EXACTLY the same as a grocery store, and we're all out to get you, in particular.**

Sorry about the tone, but I've just spent another Saturday of my life getting verbally abused by indignant customers who feel I am less of a human due to my chosen profession.

LATER

**JK

Additional Dealer Markup = more money out of the customer's pocket and into the dealer's
Documentation Fee = more money out of the customer's pocket and into the dealer's

From the customer's end, there's no difference except that the documentation fee is less obvious.


ADM = Unjustified increase in profit to make money on a hot item
Doc Fee = Justified charge for handling paperwork and DMV processing. The DMV clerks employed by the dealership don't work for free.


In conventional auto sales, many dealers are happy to sell at invoice and live on the 2%-3% holdback. That's $300-$450 gross on a $15K car. Suddenly a guaranteed $650 gross isn't all that bad!
We take a lot of deals at invoice or just over, true. In fact, fleet/internet depts do this constantly to insure the dealership meets volume quotas and gain better allocations. However the retail sales floor averages a lot more than $300-$400 per copy. A $650 gross is skimpy when you're talking about MSRP on a $16,000 unit, and keep in mind the average salesman is going to get a $100 mini commission on $650 gross.

Nobody here is whining about being in poverty, but think about how many Scions you have to sell to make a living when you're making $100 a shot.


How do we know that a number of salesmen haven't followed exactly that route? At least with Scion you don't have to compete with a dozen other salesmen, as well as spend your days haggling with customers.

If you think that the retail auto business has a small profit margin, you should check out the retail grocery business! 2% is fantastic there, and they aren't selling $15k to every customer either! Frankly, I don't see any basis for the car salesman's whines of poverty, as car dealerships seem to be in better shape than most businesses. Our local Toyota dealer just built a $$$ multistory parking structure!


C'mon, comparing the average gross between a grocery store, which sells more items a day than most dealerships do in a month is stretching it. Sure a grocery store makes a mere 2%, but they're selling thousands of things a day, all day, every day.

No salesman here is whining about being poor (although your average salesman is making about $30K a year, nothing great), nor is anybody denying that dealerships make a ton of money. The owners of my dealership are loaded...$$$$bling bling loaded. However, I don't know what your local dealership's $$$parking structure has to do with the fact that they're making $650 a copy on scions, of which they probably sell 20 a month. Dealerships are getting money from parts dept, service dept, vendors, and probably other investments as well. The owners of my dealership are heavily invested in real estate and bring a lot of their profit from that back into the dealership.

There is such a bad stigma associated with the car business. In my brief time in the industry, I've met more honest hardworking people at this dealership than I have in any previous job. So what if dealerships are trying to make a profit, who isn't? It's the point of a business. As long as they do it in a reasonable, fair, and honest manner. If a customer doesn't like the way their dealership is treating them, then they should leave. I know I wouldn't do business anywhere I felt uncomfortable.

People like Verone, Rich, Rick, Shannon, myself and just about every other salesman who cares enough to post on this forum bust our asses to give our customers as positive an experience possible. If I have a customer who is unhappy I take it personally and I do what I can to correct the problem.

Charging a $45 doc fee to help pay the DMV clerk who processes hundreds of registration and title forms each month doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Scion is a great product at a more than great price. Toyota has done a fantastic job of putting in place a system that prevents people from getting ripped off. It's by no means a perfect science, but it's leaps and bounds ahead of the old school car selling process.

Sorry about the tone, but I've just spent another Saturday of my life getting verbally abused by indignant customers who feel I am less of a human due to my chosen profession.

LATER


lol....tell me about it. I'm going to re-enlist. :lol:

Here in Kasas City, we will be selling them at MSRP.

To all you Scion salesmen (or women) out there, will you be selling your tC's at MSRP or will you be putting on ADM?

Definition: ADM = Additional Dealer Mark-up.
Thats what they call it down south at least.

Sorry to hear that.. other salesmen certainly ruin it for the good ones. I've been car shopping for over 2 months.. met 13 salesmen and only found one that's been completely straight with me... it's not your fault other salesmen suck, but by chosing that profession, you have to push off the occasional attack :D Worth it considering what you make (if you're good at it of course :wink: ).

Luckily your not alone.. you share that same pain with a lot of attorneys, cops, tax collectors, and algebra teachers :lol:

Not all dealers are the devil... I have the feeling George, like myself, has been screwed more times than the new guy in cell block c.

As far as this pricing issue goes.. you can always walk away if you're not feeling good about the deal. This pure pricing deal is a good trade.. just don't get taken by unnecessary warranties, scotchguarding, VIN etching, inflated interest rates, and mostly odd and end fees. It's up to you to be strong and not let yourself get screwed.

Thanks to all of the good salesmen that try to make it a pleasant experience.. now as for those finance guys.. WATCH OUT! :o

I just started in sales at herb chambers kia in rehoboth and I must say, Ive changed my perspective on dealerships. our FNI guy is so kind its weird, and all the salesman are actually trying to help, definatly different. although i can see now where pure pricing comes in handy, im not exacatlly what you would call aggressive and I hate doing the price back and forth thing, but either way, not all dealerships are out to get you!!!!

doubt it, it's not a high demand car.

doubt it, it's not a high demand car.

What car isnt in demand?? I have 1 xB on my lot right now and it will be sold Monday. I have a list of tC orders as long as my arm and I only have 4 xA's in inventory. I sell every car I get my hands on. Sounds like demand to me!!

just my .02 cents in the car business,

salesman (good or bad stereotyped) do what they do because of what the customer does and pressure from management. we get lied to all day long:

"got to pick up my kids all of a sudden"
"i've got an unnamed appointment all of a sudden"
"i've got brain surgery in ten minutes" - and yes i've heard this one

they do what they do to sell a car while you're there because that's how they get payed. in my region, i've never heard of a store that pays on the holdback. we've got the second largest store in oklahoma averaging 150 cars a month with 10 salesmen on the floor. if it was split evenly and every deal was a mini, you've worked 260+ hours that month for $1500. that's a little bit more than minimum wage. and you're doing that being treated like a snake the whole time. it wouldn't be so bad if everyone just payed sticker anyways, no more shopping around. that is after all what the car is worth on the market. i wish i had the luxury of walking into anyone else's place of business and wanting to pay cost on a candy bar.

I want to pay $18 for license, and what it actually costs for a title. Dealers make money by selling cars at MSRP, and not just a few bucks.

I'm STILL trying to find a dealership within ~500 miles with a doc fee under $50, since ALL it's paying for is ONE person to go get the license plates for at least 100 cars. :roll:

doubt it, it's not a high demand car.

What car isnt in demand?? I have 1 xB on my lot right now and it will be sold Monday. I have a list of tC orders as long as my arm and I only have 4 xA's in inventory. I sell every car I get my hands on. Sounds like demand to me!!

wow your dealer must be doing well. when i bought my xa last year, there were several xa and xb on the floor and on the lot. i went back to get my oil changed recently and there were about the same number of scions laying around. what i'm saying is that it's not high demands like the pt cruiser, 350z, etc. when they first came out. a couple of years ago, the 350z were selling for 40-50k in california instead of the msrp 26-35k.

Have to say, I don't like ppl like George. Buying at Invoice, means u just screwed the salesmen that spent 4 hrs out of his day, helping u find the right car, and making sure that you were satisfied. In other words, the salesman makes almost no money, taking what is refered to as, "a flat". Which ranges from 75-150 dollars per unit, depending on the dealership.

However with scions, every sale is a flat, the dealership doesnt make much money, and the salesman makes even less. All this at the expense of giving you, the customer, a haggle free, pressure free, purchasing experience.

As was said in previous post, theres almost no markup in the scion cars, so in noway is the customer being "screwed".

just my .02 cents in the car business,

salesman (good or bad stereotyped) do what they do because of what the customer does and pressure from management. we get lied to all day long:

"got to pick up my kids all of a sudden"
"i've got an unnamed appointment all of a sudden"
"i've got brain surgery in ten minutes" - and yes i've heard this one

they do what they do to sell a car while you're there because that's how they get payed. in my region, i've never heard of a store that pays on the holdback. we've got the second largest store in oklahoma averaging 150 cars a month with 10 salesmen on the floor. if it was split evenly and every deal was a mini, you've worked 260+ hours that month for $1500. that's a little bit more than minimum wage. and you're doing that being treated like a snake the whole time. it wouldn't be so bad if everyone just payed sticker anyways, no more shopping around. that is after all what the car is worth on the market. i wish i had the luxury of walking into anyone else's place of business and wanting to pay cost on a candy bar.

lol...so true. Being in this business makes u lose faith in ppl, more and more each day. You learn very quickly that most crooked salesman, didnt come into the game that way, but after sizing up the business, found its the best way to survive.

I'm an honest guy, and get the best deals I can for every customer. But when u force someone to sell u a car at invoice, b/c you feel you should pay the same price the dealership payed for the car, your pretty much stealing food, right off their plate.

...or to put it the way a sales associate of mine put it, while dealing with an unreasonible customer:

"Why don't you just stick a gun to my head, and steal the car?!"

For the record George, the average "front gross" on the Toyota line is between $800 and $1200 including HB, depending on the month. That's well above the $650 we get on the Scion.

You never cease to amaze me George. I actually feel sorry for you. You always seem so terribly unhappy and angry. I know a lot of people like you and I don't know how they do it. Life is too short to worry about the things you stress over.

Oh dear - look what I've started!

This is better than words can describe. Fight the good fight, Scionists!

LATER

People like Verone, Rich, Rick, Shannon, myself and just about every other salesman who cares enough to post on this forum bust our asses to give our customers as positive an experience possible. If I have a customer who is unhappy I take it personally and I do what I can to correct the problem.

Count me in, too!

My document fee was $50. No complaints here. And the salesperson even showed me the hybrid floormats on the demo car lol.

wow ... ah, guys I'm sorry this turned heated, and salemen bashing is taking place.
That was not my intention.

Anyway,
When I go to buy my tC, I will pay MSRP out the door, meaning all taxes, tags, fees, etc. will be included at MSRP. No suprises. If the dealer won't accept that I will walk.

Guys, that is what makes this country great. If you don't like the deal, leave and try another dealer... or you change your offer.

They may not accept your deal the day the car hits the street, or even two months later. You may be stuck waiting several months, or walk out of many deals, but the bottom line is it is your choice.
When I bought my Jeep Liberty, I almost left the lot for a suprise $50, but the saleman decided he wanted the sale that day, and ate the $50, I turned the car off and went back inside.

The choice is yours, whether you are the salesman or the customer, no one is holding a gun to you (unless you are buying the car black market).
:wink:

Anyway,
When I go to buy my tC, I will pay MSRP out the door, meaning all taxes, tags, fees, etc. will be included at MSRP. No suprises. If the dealer won't accept that I will walk.

Guess you wont be buying a tC, because no dealer anywhere would except that. They would be losing around 500-1000 dollars. Tax, Tag, and Title are never included in the MRSP, and are fees every customer must pay. Even long standing veteran car salesmans buying from there own dealership.

____ even my used car manager had to pay Tax, tag, and title on the tC he preordered from us.

Anyway,
When I go to buy my tC, I will pay MSRP out the door, meaning all taxes, tags, fees, etc. will be included at MSRP. No suprises. If the dealer won't accept that I will walk.
:wink:

Dealerships can't do this. By altering the price by even a penny they will be caught at the next audit and deemed non-compliant. This means they lose 30% of their inventory, and on a hot car that isn't anything I'd want to do. We can't even give employee discounts.

What dealership would want to not only lose money selling you a car but also lose 30% of their allocation? Not many I would imagine.

Face it, the Scion is a great deal as is. The government makes more on tax than the dealership makes in profit, and the salesman is going to walk away with about $100.

George,

Just one question. What is it that you do for a living? I'd sure like to know.

I'm not sure what you do, but undoubtedly it does not directly involve sales or profit considerations. I'd like to remind you that while what car dealerships do may not be the most glamorous or rewarding business on earth (like building bridges or being a farmer or something where you can feel really good about making the world a better place), we are at the tip of a spear that is the auto industry. Undoubtedly, your business is in some way supportive of or dependant upon the auto industry (nearly everthing is -- you can't really do anything in America without a car, and a tremendous number of companies do business with a major manufacturer or a supplier of a manufacturer, or a supplier of a supplier, etc.)

Based on the opinions you have voiced, it is obvious you have more than an intellectual interest in this topic. You genuinely believe that car dealers and car salesman are "bad". You probably have some personal experience with this. You have my sympathy. However, your personal experience has tainted your otherwise useful information. You are not correct about Scions -- in fact I don't think anyone has it 100% right yet. Currently, the cars are not very profitable. We don't have holdback. Our mark-up is very skinny, compared to the rest of the vehicles Toyota sells us, yet our costs are the same. Think about it George -- if you invested $13,000 of borrowed money (at about 7% APR floor plan, industry average), would you settle for a 5% return ($650 markup) in 30 days? I'm sure YOU can do that math, but for those of us out there that had to figure it out, that's about $575 profit. Take out $100 for a salesperson commision, $80 for document prep and delivery (our actual cost), and about $300 for advertising (industry average cost), and you end up with $95.

If you'll let me borrow $13,000 from you in exchange for $13,095 back to you in 30 days, please email me immediately.

I know this isn't fair, becuase you obviously don't understand the intracacies of our business, and I am presenting information to you that you have no way of knowing. For that I apologize. It's just that when an un-informed person presents themselves as having an informed opinion, it really irritates me.

So, in closing, your scathing perspective on the part of the auto business that actually sells the cars that you either help make or need to conduct business is grossly unfair. I don't ask that you like the car business, merely that you respect it.

Nough Said...

Bottom line is that the Scion cars are "no haggle" meaning the buyer and seller are both getting a great deal and there are no magic tricks taking place during purchase. One of the many reasons I am picking Scion as I don't like to haggle and this way I don't have to.

Luckily for me, majority of my car purchases have been great. Of course, like everyone else, I drive out of the dealership saying "I got a great deal on that car" and I am sure the sales person is saying the same thing for their side.

I think if all cars were sold like Scion, then there would be a much more friendly relationship between dealer and customer.

Kevin

I agree with a lot that's been said in this forum (see my earlier post).. it's been nice to get a salesman's perspective and I'm suprised George hasn't chimed in recently. Scions has definitely laid the groundwork for an industry evolution.

...but fearturtle44 and other non-sales readers.. don't kid yourselves because the car pricing is only half of the battle. I'm not claiming dealerships and salesmen (I used to be one) are snakes, but there are other details to consider when making your purchase. I just want to give you a fair warning, because as a saleman, I know that we will make money wherever there is money to be made.

I'm not against dealerships making money.. that's how they fund competent salemen (as those that post here), lavish facilities, and keep the inventory rolling to help you get what you want.

Just watch out for yourself, the salespeople will watch out for the dealership and in comprimise both parties will be happy.

DO NOT EXPECT TO PAY LESS THAN MSRP ON SCION.. it will not happen now or in the immediate forseeable future.

Just watch out for those other fees (Doc fees under $100 are generally acceptable), such as warranties, excessive accessories (the price may be good but consider that you'll be paying for it for the next 5 year or so), gap coverage, excessive fuel charges (some places actually charge you to fill up your tank.. at 2.50+/gallon), paint sealant, rust-preventing undercoating, fabric protection, etc.. most of all be on your toes when signing the finance ppwk with the finance closer. They can and will pull every dollar possible out of you- and it's okay, it's their job. You have to be strong and stand your ground. Scion's already done that for the car pricing.. you just have to watch for everything else.

I'm still firmly believe this is one of the best pricing promotions yet and I look forward to getting my tC at MSRP.

Yeah scions are not designed to be money makers with the HUGE MSRP markup, dealers make money other ways.

Service for example, if they can get your car in the shop more $ for them :)

You can finance through toyota financial, While I am getting the $400 college grad rebate I'm still paying 4.75% compared with the 3.85% I could have gotten with capital one, but the $400 makes up for that....

If you order parts & accessories through them then more money!

The other ways they make money is giving you a very low value on your trade in.

Or they can pull a number of other things, Doc fees, window vin etching, advertising fees, who knows what else...

My advice is this: Go into the dealership knowing what the msrp is and that is what you will be paying PLUS tax title & liscence. NEVER trade a car in at a dealer.... Don't buy extended warrenties, & don't try to think you are smarter than them, youmay be, but you have to remember they sell cars for a living you buy one every couple of years.

I agree with a lot that's been said in this forum (see my earlier post).. it's been nice to get a salesman's perspective and I'm suprised George hasn't chimed in recently. Scions has definitely laid the groundwork for an industry evolution.

...but fearturtle44 and other non-sales readers.. don't kid yourselves because the car pricing is only half of the battle. I'm not claiming dealerships and salesmen (I used to be one) are snakes, but there are other details to consider when making your purchase. I just want to give you a fair warning, because as a saleman, I know that we will make money wherever there is money to be made.

I'm not against dealerships making money.. that's how they fund competent salemen (as those that post here), lavish facilities, and keep the inventory rolling to help you get what you want.

Just watch out for yourself, the salespeople will watch out for the dealership and in comprimise both parties will be happy.

DO NOT EXPECT TO PAY LESS THAN MSRP ON SCION.. it will not happen now or in the immediate forseeable future.

Just watch out for those other fees (Doc fees under $100 are generally acceptable), such as warranties, excessive accessories (the price may be good but consider that you'll be paying for it for the next 5 year or so), gap coverage, excessive fuel charges (some places actually charge you to fill up your tank.. at 2.50+/gallon), paint sealant, rust-preventing undercoating, fabric protection, etc.. most of all be on your toes when signing the finance ppwk with the finance closer. They can and will pull every dollar possible out of you- and it's okay, it's their job. You have to be strong and stand your ground. Scion's already done that for the car pricing.. you just have to watch for everything else.

I'm still firmly believe this is one of the best pricing promotions yet and I look forward to getting my tC at MSRP.

TRAITOR!

j/k, you being honest...but im sure finance mangers around the US, will hate you all the more for it. Not like I care, we salesman don't see even of the backend anyway.

Based on the opinions you have voiced, it is obvious you have more than an intellectual interest in this topic. You genuinely believe that car dealers and car salesman are "bad". You probably have some personal experience with this. You have my sympathy. However, your personal experience has tainted your otherwise useful information. You are not correct about Scions -- in fact I don't think anyone has it 100% right yet. Currently, the cars are not very profitable. We don't have holdback. Our mark-up is very skinny, compared to the rest of the vehicles Toyota sells us, yet our costs are the same. Think about it George -- if you invested $13,000 of borrowed money (at about 7% APR floor plan, industry average), would you settle for a 5% return ($650 markup) in 30 days? I'm sure YOU can do that math, but for those of us out there that had to figure it out, that's about $575 profit. Take out $100 for a salesperson commision, $80 for document prep and delivery (our actual cost), and about $300 for advertising (industry average cost), and you end up with $95.

If you'll let me borrow $13,000 from you in exchange for $13,095 back to you in 30 days, please email me immediately.
Aww shucks, those poor dealers. They're practically giving the cars away. Some must sell at invoice simply out the goodness of their bleeding hearts. :roll:

I think if all cars were sold like Scion, then there would be a much more friendly relationship between dealer and customer.
That's because it would take away the salesperson. Instead of some adversary between you and a car, you've got a take-it or leave-it price.

ADM = Unjustified increase in profit to make money on a hot item
Doc Fee = Justified charge for handling paperwork and DMV processing. The DMV clerks employed by the dealership don't work for free.
See, if you call it something else, it's magically not the same thing. No it's not the dealer marking up the car, it's a "Document Verification and Processing Fee". If it sounds official and important, you aren't getting screwed.

I think if all cars were sold like Scion, then there would be a much more friendly relationship between dealer and customer.
That's because it would take away the salesperson. Instead of some adversary between you and a car, you've got a take-it or leave-it price.

You must be George's brother!! I can see the resemblance from here :wink:

edit: It wouldnt take away the salesmens job. Not everyone just shops price and customers dont generally look at only 1 car. The dealership would still need people to handle test drives, inform prospective buyers of features and options, fill out paperwork and also still "sell" the vehicle over the competition. Gee, kinda sounds like my job!~lol

When I go to buy my tC, I will pay MSRP out the door, meaning all taxes, tags, fees, etc. will be included at MSRP. No suprises. If the dealer won't accept that I will walk.

I hope that you have really comfortable shoes :roll: Sorry, I dont mean to be rude. Just having some fun. Seriously though, this sales process is'nt for everyone. Some people will never be satisfied no matter what kind of deal they get. They need to feel that they "won the battle" and with pure pricing they won't get the satisfaction because everyone pays the same price. That is the kind of thinking that has the auto business so screwed up. Most manufacturers overprice there vehicles so that when a customer comes in they knock $XXX of the price and you think you got a good deal. If everyone priced vehicles like Scion you would see drastic MSRP drops~ Especially from the domestic auto makers.

Guys, that is what makes this country great. If you don't like the deal, leave and try another dealer... or you change your offer.
:wink:


Selling at MSRP = Price Fixing = Communism :twisted:

Die Communist Pigs! DIE!

j/k. I know what some of you salesmen are saying, and thats what your jobs are, so its cool that you have an opinion and are willing to share it in this open forum.

I know that when Dae-a-who? was originally coming to the US, they actually tried to get the wholesale clubs (i.e. Sam's, BJ's, Costco,etc.) to carry their cars. No salesmen, no nothing... just pick the car and go to the check out.
I know Carmax is trying a similar approach, as is Scion in some respects, but you have had people "haggling" for goods since literally the begining of time.
I mean some cultures, it is actually an insult to them if you DON'T haggle.
This is going to take a long long time to change people's opinions of car buying (and car salesmen), but I applaud those out there on the front lines fighting the good fight leaving their customers with a positive buying experience. May the force be with you.
(start gripe: salesmen know your products, I can't stand coming to a lot with a slick willy who spends his day smoking a cigeratte rather than learning his products, and my 13yr old kid brother knows more than he does. :end gripe)

Guys we just all need to repeat this phrase: " It is just a car "
No need to get the blood pressures all worked up. :wink:

Hey Rob... That was a truly inspired post. Not only do I not dispute a single word, I actually agree with all of it. I too, am annoyed by "salesmen" who wont take the time to learn their job and their product and expect to be paid the same as the guy who takes his job seriously. I also appreciate the kudos. You also have no idea how entrenched the haggle gene is in some cultures and as a result, there are some folks whom I have no expectation to ever sell a car.

No Never Not!

Scion is what Scion does

anyone who has bought a Scion can attest! No push for extra warranty, no getting screwed on a trade.

Pure Pricing +
Transparent financing =

Scion Owner

[quote=CU_rob]


Guys we just all need to repeat this phrase: " It is just a car "
No need to get the blood pressures all worked up. :wink:

Probably the mot intelligent thing I've ever read on this or any other car-relatedboard.

At the end of the day, it's four friggin' wheels and a seat.

That said, it's been many years of people being take to the cleaners by greedy, unscrupulous dealers that have resulted in this animosity towards those of you in the auto sales business. I feel for those honest, informed of you who are; Sales overall, while profitable, is a ____ty, stressful business, whether it's cars or cleaning products.

On the other hand, ANYONE who walks into a dealership nowadays, or who goes to purchase any product they're unfamiliar with before doing their research deserves to be bent over a desk like Marsellis Wallace from Pulp Fiction. It's a free market economy y'all, and as long as the product delivers what it's supposed to, you can be charged whatever for it. You can only be taken advantage of if you LET someone do it, so don't go blaming the dealer for making a few grand off your a$$ because you decided your life was meaningless unless you drove out with a particular vechicle that day. At that point, you deserve to get seperated from your money, and the sales guy deserves his sale and profits. A fair deal results when an informed customer buys from a knowlegable salesperson; they make a little, you save a little, and they get a lifelong customer. If I sold cars, I'd lose a little profit if I knew that by doing that, I'd get ten more customers coming to see me because I gave a client a fair shake, and something more than they expected. And as a consumer, you better believe I'm going in so much knowledge about the product and the process, it becomes a game of mutual respect, rather than an adversarial one. Some of the members of this board should consider themselves lucky as hell that Scion has a no-haggle policy, as you've invested so much emotionally in a vehicle most of you haven't even DRIVEN yet, if it were regular pricing, Scion dealerships would look like tryouts for OZ: the Juvie Hall Years.

Know what you're doing, and you won't get nailed. Go in ignorant, and you get what you deserve.

Scion guys, keep your reputations clean, and look at the big picture. Repeat business and referrals are where it's at, keep your clients happy, and you'll make $$. THAT kind of salesman deserves every dime.

just my .02 cents in the car business,

salesman (good or bad stereotyped) do what they do because of what the customer does and pressure from management. we get lied to all day long:

"got to pick up my kids all of a sudden"
"i've got an unnamed appointment all of a sudden"
"i've got brain surgery in ten minutes" - and yes i've heard this one

Man, if you don't understand the _real_ meaning here you are in the wrong business. These are just socially acceptable and graceful ways to exit while leaving the option open to return. The customer often has to resort to these because the salesman has blocked every other graceful path. Would you rather have the customer say "I'm leaving because you are a grasping tenacious parasite!" with no chance of return (and sale)?

When you are on the phone, do you end every conversation by saying "I don't want to talk to you anymore."? No, you tell the socially acceptable lie "I'll let you go now" or some variation.

There is a huge difference between social "lies" like these and the blatant lies I have seen perpetrated by salesmen concerning hundreds of dollars of cost for the customer.


Have to say, I don't like ppl like George. Buying at Invoice, means u just screwed the salesmen that spent 4 hrs out of his day, helping u find the right car, and making sure that you were satisfied. In other words, the salesman makes almost no money, taking what is refered to as, "a flat". Which ranges from 75-150 dollars per unit, depending on the dealership.

That's assuming that you've spent 4 hours with that customer. You might actually _like_ me as a customer, since I want to walk in, tell you what I want, take a 10-minute spin to make sure the wheels are attached, and write a check. You could be $150 richer for a half-hour's work if you refrain from playing salesman's games.


As was said in previous post, theres almost no markup in the scion cars, so in noway is the customer being "screwed".

xB: MSRP - invoice = $13680 - $12995 = $685 <> "no markup"

Salesmen have a hard time accepting the logic of this. Perhaps they have been programmed by their management?



You learn very quickly that most crooked salesman, didnt come into the game that way, but after sizing up the business, found its the best way to survive.

I agree completely! When success is measured by the amount of money received from customers, and the most effective methods are manipulation and deceit, it is very difficult for those who don't resort to those methods to remain employed. Who doesn't like the challenge of doing your job better, and the primary measure of how well you do your job is the number on the check at the end of the week. No salesman becomes "crooked" in a single step. They learn "marketing techniques" one by one from their management and peers.


For the record George, the average "front gross" on the Toyota line is between $800 and $1200 including HB, depending on the month. That's well above the $650 we get on the Scion.

Very informative. If the Scion salesmen does his job right they will also spend a lot less time haggling with the customer. It'll even out in the end.


You never cease to amaze me George. I actually feel sorry for you. You always seem so terribly unhappy and angry. I know a lot of people like you and I don't know how they do it. Life is too short to worry about the things you stress over.

I am neither unhappy or angry. I dislike deception and manipulation. At almost every turn I find that deception and manipulation are the norm in car sales. It's so engrained that some salesmen don't even realize that they are lying.

There are a lot of great people on this site and they deserve to know how things really work and what to watch out for when buying their cars. I'm sorry that salesmen don't want their customers to be prepared to ask uncomfortable questions, but customers have the right to know what is coming their way.


Anyway,
When I go to buy my tC, I will pay MSRP out the door, meaning all taxes, tags, fees, etc. will be included at MSRP. No suprises. If the dealer won't accept that I will walk.

You might have a problem getting the taxes and tags included in the MSRP. If your taxes are high like they are here they would account for more than the dealer's profit.

Contrary to the opinion of many salesmen here, I don't begrudge a dealer a reasonable profit on a car. $685 is a pretty good profit on a $15,000 car that pretty much sells itself.


George,

Just one question. What is it that you do for a living? I'd sure like to know.

As most folks know, I'm a teacher. This is my second career after 15 years in engineering. Yes, part of that was in the auto industry.

I'm not sure what you do, but undoubtedly it does not directly involve sales or profit considerations. I'd like to remind you that while what car dealerships do may not be the most glamorous or rewarding business on earth (like building bridges or being a farmer or something where you can feel really good about making the world a better place), we are at the tip of a spear that is the auto industry.

What an unfortunate (and accurate) metaphor! The customer's goal is to get the car without being stabbed!

Based on the opinions you have voiced, it is obvious you have more than an intellectual interest in this topic. You genuinely believe that car dealers and car salesman are "bad".

Not quite. The culture of the car sales business breeds dishonesty and deceit. Few salesmen set out to be dishonest, but they are pretty much forced to it by their managment and the fact that deceptive practices are usually the most effective. I had great hopes that Scion would bring a change to this, but my personal experience at several dealers showed this not to be the case. It's business as usual with some minor changes in the ground rules.

You are not correct about Scions -- in fact I don't think anyone has it 100% right yet. Currently, the cars are not very profitable. We don't have holdback. Our mark-up is very skinny, compared to the rest of the vehicles Toyota sells us, yet our costs are the same.

That same old mantra.

Few Toyotas sell for their full markup. Every Scion sells for its full markup. You're supposed to be more efficient in the sales end because there are fewer options, no haggling, and better-informed customers.


Think about it George -- if you invested $13,000 of borrowed money (at about 7% APR floor plan, industry average), would you settle for a 5% return ($650 markup) in 30 days? I'm sure YOU can do that math, but for those of us out there that had to figure it out, that's about $575 profit. Take out $100 for a salesperson commision, $80 for document prep and delivery (our actual cost), and about $300 for advertising (industry average cost), and you end up with $95.

If you'll let me borrow $13,000 from you in exchange for $13,095 back to you in 30 days, please email me immediately.

Have _you_ done the math?! That last figure comes out to 8.7% per year, uncompounded! Most folks would be very happy with that rate of return!

A Scion dealer's _actual_ rate of return is probably even higher since you're assuming that the cars will sit on the lot for a month (not likely for an xB) and that Scion advertises at the industry aveage rate.

I know this isn't fair, becuase you obviously don't understand the intracacies of our business, and I am presenting information to you that you have no way of knowing. For that I apologize. It's just that when an un-informed person presents themselves as having an informed opinion, it really irritates me.

According to your numbers, the dealers are actually doing better than my assumptions indicated! I know that this wasn't your intent, but thanks for the verification!

So, in closing, your scathing perspective on the part of the auto business that actually sells the cars that you either help make or need to conduct business is grossly unfair. I don't ask that you like the car business, merely that you respect it.

I have a lot of respect for the car business. I also have a lot of respect for sharp knives. Both can be useful, and both can hurt you. I don't think that pointing this out is unfair in any way.

Some salesmen have stated here that I am anti-dealer or anti-salesman. Neither of these are true. I am anti-deceit.

If the "Scion Way" and "Pure Pricing" say to give all the price information to the customer up front, then the dealers should do just that, not pop up with hidden fees as they did with me 2 out of 3 times _after_ they had been warned up front that I would not stand for such tactics. They assumed that I would miss the hidden fee or agree to it to salvage the time wasted in making the transaction.

"Pure Pricing" for most dealers is just an excuse to fix prices at MSRP and then to tack as much to the end of the transaction as they can. If a dealer feels that they need an additional $50, or $100, or $300, to process paperwork they should include it in the "Pure Price" they advertise.

Any car buyer is in the unfortunate position of having to deal with professional salespeople who know far more about car dealing and manipulation than any customer ever will. Buyers deserve to know the prospective traps so that they can be assertive in avoiding those pitfalls. If this makes the salesmen's job more difficult, then the salesmen should reconsider their tactics and those of their peers.

George

And that, my friends, is what makes this the best forum I've read so far. :!:

wow. there isn't any point in tearing your argument apart piece by piece because your mind is already made up. if you've ever got a couple weeks with nothing to do i challenge you to go try and sell cars. i'd probably be willing to bet within 3 weeks you'd spin out, because that's what i wanted to do. i didn't like being lied to by everyone i met because of who they assumed i was. and yes george i would rather be told straight up that someone didn't like me, didn't get along with me or even didn't like my freaking tie. you are openly admitting to lying to someone but expecting them to be honest in return? this frustrates me.

salesman do what they do because of what customers do to them. my experience has been that 90% of the time a customers loyalty to a salesman goes about as far as i can spit into the wind.

Yo, DibuyoB, I'm going to buy my tC from you (Scion of El Cajon) because I heard good things about you guys. Please PM me...

Do you guys got free popcorn? Mossy nissan has free popcorn. The water in the fountain better be cold when I get there. :D

wow. there isn't any point in tearing your argument apart piece by piece because your mind is already made up. if you've ever got a couple weeks with nothing to do i challenge you to go try and sell cars. i'd probably be willing to bet within 3 weeks you'd spin out, because that's what i wanted to do. i didn't like being lied to by everyone i met because of who they assumed i was. and yes george i would rather be told straight up that someone didn't like me, didn't get along with me or even didn't like my freaking tie. you are openly admitting to lying to someone but expecting them to be honest in return? this frustrates me.

salesman do what they do because of what customers do to them. my experience has been that 90% of the time a customers loyalty to a salesman goes about as far as i can spit into the wind.

It is a waste of time. Funny thing is, ppl like george, who feel they are so informed, end up going right past the honest salesman, and get played like the fools they are, by our "less" honest counter-parts.

Anyway, I'm going to stop posting, before I get myself in trouble with scion/toyota. Dealing with people like george is apart of the buisness.

Autofair Scion in Manchester, NH is selling for MSRP with a standard $121 admin, title, and doc fee applied to all Scions and Toyotas.

if you've ever got a couple weeks with nothing to do i challenge you to go try and sell cars.

Not a chance! My training is in engineering, and, as the saying goes:

"The problem with Engineers is that, in moments of stress, they tend to blurt out the truth."

I can work with salesmen, analyze their techniques, even symphathize with them, but I could never be one.

i'd probably be willing to bet within 3 weeks you'd spin out, because that's what i wanted to do. i didn't like being lied to by everyone i met because of who they assumed i was. and yes george i would rather be told straight up that someone didn't like me, didn't get along with me or even didn't like my freaking tie. you are openly admitting to lying to someone but expecting them to be honest in return? this frustrates me.

That's because you don't distinguish between the normal social lies that everyone uses in the course of normal social interaction and the serious deceptions that involve considerable cost for your customers. _Everyone_ (yes, even you) uses social lies to smooth their interaction with others. If you didn't, you'd come across as having the social skills of a Rain Man!

However, using social lies as a justification of all lies employed in business dealings is flawed logic.

salesman do what they do because of what customers do to them. my experience has been that 90% of the time a customers loyalty to a salesman goes about as far as i can spit into the wind.

Question: Why should a customer show loyalty to a salesman? The customer is there to conduct a business transaction, not to get married! I'm loyal to my wife, to my children, to my co-workers, and my friends, but there is no reason for me to be loyal to someone who views customers as you do.

As I have said before, there is one salesman to whom I am loyal, a gentleman who sells appliances at Sears. The word "gentleman" is an exact description here. I've never caught him being dishonest and he always gets me what I want at the best price he can. He probably bends his employer's rules a bit, but has gotten away with it for more than a decade, because he has customers lined up waiting to buy from him.

The Scion marketing model, as Toyota corporate would like us to believe, is remarkably like appliance sales. Unfortunately, the actual customer interface is still under the control of the same people who have made retail automotive sales the morass that it is. With the foxes in charge of the chicken coop it is not surprising that little has changed at most dealers.

George

It is a waste of time. Funny thing is, ppl like george, who feel they are so informed, end up going right past the honest salesman, and get played like the fools they are, by our "less" honest counter-parts.

Not true. After three tries I found a dealer/salesman who understood that I didn't want or need sales BS. I got my car, the salesman got his commission, and the dealer got a reasonable profit, all in a very short time. This is how the Scion sales model is supposed to work. OTOH, the deceptive salesmen wasted their time, and mine.

[quote=RoryC]Anyway, I'm going to stop posting, before I get myself in trouble with scion/toyota. Dealing with people like george is apart of the buisness.

If you're being truthful, how could posting get you in trouble? Many salesmen post here regularly and have acquired many customers because of the fact that they are valuable participants on these forums.

Yes, often you will get a customer who is more knowledgeable than you would like and who doesn't like deception. A smart salesman recognizes this, dispenses with the BS, and gets the sale.

Well, so much for "no haggle" pricing. Here in the gulf area of Florida, I have checked two scion dealers and they have an almost $500 documentation fee. Crazy!

There are two choices I have to pay MSRP for the following,

1) 2005 Subaru Outback
2) 2005 Scion tC

I chose tC and I feel much better!

george, actually it seems that your logic is flawed. if a socially acceptable lie is ok because you say it is socially acceptable, then i say that if it widely assumed that salesman are going to lie to you then to me it would be socially acceptable for them to do so?

it boggles me how you can assume so much about people you've never met. do you assume that all black people are african, even funnier do you assume they all like fried chicken? sorry george but you happen to be the reason i hate selling cars. and the reason the dude up there decided to stop posting is because he's probably afraid of the potential backlash against his dealership because of posting irritations he has with his customers. knock sales people all day, heaven forbid we expose the flaws of our customers. they might not by from us then, but we still sell to you when you don't like us. besides, car salesman aren't people anyway. how about this one:

"give me your best price"
"if i do that will you buy my car"
"no, and i'll probably shop it"
"so i got to the trouble to give you a number so you can go down the road, save 20 bucks and buy elsewhere?"

this make any sense to you GEORGE? i do something for you so you can use it against me somewhere else? sounds like a waste of time to me. oh wait but you want to be taken seriously and respected and not taking into consideration that i am not paid by the hour and am therefore wasting my time if you have no intention of buying from me. you will forever remain ignorant until you join the business and see what happens and why. until then you're just another person with an uninformed opinion.

anyway we are talking about scion. the whole thing is designed to be anti-jicky.

It is a waste of time. Funny thing is, ppl like george, who feel they are so informed, end up going right past the honest salesman, and get played like the fools they are, by our "less" honest counter-parts.

Not true. After three tries I found a dealer/salesman who understood that I didn't want or need sales BS. I got my car, the salesman got his commission, and the dealer got a reasonable profit, all in a very short time. This is how the Scion sales model is supposed to work. OTOH, the deceptive salesmen wasted their time, and mine.

[quote=RoryC]Anyway, I'm going to stop posting, before I get myself in trouble with scion/toyota. Dealing with people like george is apart of the buisness.

If you're being truthful, how could posting get you in trouble? Many salesmen post here regularly and have acquired many customers because of the fact that they are valuable participants on these forums.

Yes, often you will get a customer who is more knowledgeable than you would like and who doesn't like deception. A smart salesman recognizes this, dispenses with the BS, and gets the sale.

You think your more knowledgeble, but for the most part, your just misinformed. When I said, "I don't want to get in trouble", I was merely saying, I need to bite my tounge, before I share how I truly feel about people like you.

I also have a feeling that the salesman you purchased from, probably recieved a flat, and the dealership only made money on the back end, (Waranty, etc).

As I have said before, there is one salesman to whom I am loyal, a gentleman who sells appliances at Sears. The word "gentleman" is an exact description here. I've never caught him being dishonest and he always gets me what I want at the best price he can. He probably bends his employer's rules a bit, but has gotten away with it for more than a decade, because he has customers lined up waiting to buy from him.

Again, I love it.

Ususally, someone's high and mighty morals will bite them, and it just has. While it is a crime against humanity for George to pay an extra cent to a car dealer and be 'deceived', it is perfectly acceptable for George to bend the rules of an organization in order to save some money.

And there you have it folks, money is the root of all things. In our capitalist society, at least. George won't get screwed, but it's OK if someone else gets screwed. Oh, and you have caught him being dishonest, just not to you, George. To his employer.

I think the term is "Hoisted on his own pitard". Character will ultimately always reveal itself.

LATER

Yo, DibuyoB, I'm going to buy my tC from you (Scion of El Cajon) because I heard good things about you guys. Please PM me...

Do you guys got free popcorn? Mossy nissan has free popcorn. The water in the fountain better be cold when I get there. :D

What up wes? Sorry I didn't see this post before right now...I zipped you a PM.

"He probably bends his employer's rules a bit, but has gotten away with it for more than a decade, because he has customers lined up waiting to buy from him."

Is this the type of person anyone with a company would want working for them? Someone who steals from the company to make a sale? I would put up any of my salespeople against this person in a morals review. As long as it benefits you it is ok to deceive, lie and "bend the rules"? That is a pretty twisted way of looking at things and maybe you need to take a step back and take inventory of your own morals.

:roll:

"He probably bends his employer's rules a bit, but has gotten away with it for more than a decade, because he has customers lined up waiting to buy from him."

Is this the type of person anyone with a company would want working for them? Someone who steals from the company to make a sale? I would put up any of my salespeople against this person in a morals review. As long as it benefits you it is ok to deceive, lie and "bend the rules"? That is a pretty twisted way of looking at things and maybe you need to take a step back and take inventory of your own morals.

:roll:

Depending on the salesman, yes, it could be the type of person a company wants working for them. Chances are, when he "bends the rules", any hit in margin the company takes is coming out of his commission. And if it's not, if they amount of business he brings in more than evens it out.

Let's look at this example. If you're making $685 on every tC that goes out the door, let's imagine that a salesman your dealership starts selling that $100 below MSRP. You're taking a $100 hit in profit. But if suddenly all of the business in the area, and are selling twice as many units as you would have before, you're making a lower GMD percentage, but higher net margin. So even though you're "bending the rules", you're still making more money. You're also making customers happy. And that leads to referrals.

"He probably bends his employer's rules a bit, but has gotten away with it for more than a decade, because he has customers lined up waiting to buy from him."
Is this the type of person anyone with a company would want working for them?
Well, he's been at this Sears store for well over a decade that I know of! They are apparently pleased enough with his performance to have him stay and to pay him well enough to fend off other stores that would like him to work there.

The "bending" I referred to was in letting his customers know when the appliance they want goes on sale. Sears rotates everything on and off sale on a weekly basis. Considering that he calls from his store phone, I doubt that his bosses are unaware of what he does. I really don't know telling customers about sales is against the company's policy or not. Note the work "probably" in my statement above!

Rather than have to check the papers every week, all I do is wait for a phone call. That is a customer service I appreciate.
Someone who steals from the company to make a sale? I would put up any of my salespeople against this person in a morals review. As long as it benefits you it is ok to deceive, lie and "bend the rules"? That is a pretty twisted way of looking at things and maybe you need to take a step back and take inventory of your own morals.
You are the one who assumed theft was involved. Straw man tactic.

My morals are just fine, but I seem to have hit a lot of hot buttons with the salesmen hereabouts. I never thought I'd ever see a car salesman lecturing on morals! :)
Ususally, someone's high and mighty morals will bite them, and it just has. While it is a crime against humanity for George to pay an extra cent to a car dealer and be 'deceived', it is perfectly acceptable for George to bend the rules of an organization in order to save some money.
And just where did I say that?
And there you have it folks, money is the root of all things. In our capitalist society, at least. George won't get screwed, but it's OK if someone else gets screwed. Oh, and you have caught him being dishonest, just not to you, George. To his employer.
Read my response above again. His employer isn't complaining and neither are his customers. I probably shouldn't have made the statement "bend the rules" because it may not be the case.
I think the term is "Hoisted on his own pitard". Character will ultimately always reveal itself.
No, the phrase from Shakespeare, is "hoist with his own petard" Do you know what a petard is? (without Googling it) :)
You think your more knowledgeble, but for the most part, your just misinformed. When I said, "I don't want to get in trouble", I was merely saying, I need to bite my tounge, before I share how I truly feel about people like you.
As far as my knowledge about buying cars, I seem to be know enough to get some salesmen here very bothered.
I also have a feeling that the salesman you purchased from, probably recieved a flat, and the dealership only made money on the back end, (Waranty, etc).
Why? I paid MSRP like all other Scion buyers. He didn't violate his dealer's policies in any way that I could see. The fact that the salesman completed the transaction with no BS shouldn't mean a thing to his bosses.
george, actually it seems that your logic is flawed. if a socially acceptable lie is ok because you say it is socially acceptable, then i say that if it widely assumed that salesman are going to lie to you then to me it would be socially acceptable for them to do so?
Well, if that is your philosophy, go right ahead. It does seem to be the norm for your profession. I really didn't believe it at first, but it does seems to fit most (but, luckily, not all) of the auto salemen I've encountered.
<racial baiting deleted>
sorry george but you happen to be the reason i hate selling cars.
Why do you do something you hate?
and the reason the dude up there decided to stop posting is because he's probably afraid of the potential backlash against his dealership because of posting irritations he has with his customers. knock sales people all day, heaven forbid we expose the flaws of our customers. they might not by from us then, but we still sell to you when you don't like us.
Yes, we customers do seem to be the ones with the checkbooks, no matter how much you loathe us! It is interesting to see your true feelings come out on this forum. Every time a salesman starts a rant, we learn a bit more about how he ticks.
besides, car salesman aren't people anyway. how about this one:
"give me your best price"
"if i do that will you buy my car"
"no, and i'll probably shop it"
"so i got to the trouble to give you a number so you can go down the road, save 20 bucks and buy elsewhere?"
this make any sense to you GEORGE? i do something for you so you can use it against me somewhere else?
How about quoting a price low enough that the guy down the road won't undercut it and the customer will come back to you? Good 'ol honest competition. After all, dealer's ads scream "we'll beat any deal!", so why is it bad that a customer would test the assertion?
sounds like a waste of time to me. oh wait but you want to be taken seriously and respected and not taking into consideration that i am not paid by the hour and am therefore wasting my time if you have no intention of buying from me. you will forever remain ignorant until you join the business and see what happens and why. until then you're just another person with an uninformed opinion.
I don't care a whit about your financial situation or whether you are paid by the hour or not. That is between you and your employer. If you don't like your job, find one that you do like.

I had a salesman waste two hours of my time after he lied to me about junk fees. I asked him directly if his dealer charged them, was told "no", after which I made it clear that I wouldn't accept them. Still, he continued the sales process to the point where he had to reveal the fee. Do I feel sorry for him? Nope, because he had the opportunity to say "sorry, my boss won't go for that" and cut things off before we both wasted time.

George

George

I think that I speak for most involved with these forums when I say it is extremely irritating when you grossly generalize the ENTIRE industry and ALL who work for it as lying, conniving cheaters. That is simply not true, and you know it. It seems a bit childish to lump everyone into the same group. And I'm sure that the salesman who you purchased from, in addition to the Sears salesman, wouldn't be too pleased of your characterization either.

Just like you would rather be judged by your individual merits, so would we. It's fine to educate customers (that's my job, too), but by constantly pointing the finger at ALL salesman as the devilin every situation, it continues the cycle of adversity that the industry has existed on for decades. I'm not saying that we could necessarily change everything here and now, but it oculd be a start.

I do not hate my customers. I do not begrudge them feeling defensive when they walk into the dealership. I do, however, object when I am not given a fair shake. Judge me by my actions, not by the actions of those before.

I do genuinely find it interesting as to why you feel the way you do. I know the story, and you had some unfortunate encounters. But to demonize all for the actions of a few? Come on. Give (most of) us a break, would ya?

Lies and deceit. George has been lied and deceived to so many times, he doesn't know when the truth is sitting in front of him. That's sad. Its also sad that he can't even be truthful himself during his tirades. George, of all people should be aware that any and all fees must be disclosed as part of Pure Price. I'm sure he knows this, but still posts stuff like this:

"Pure Pricing" for most dealers is just an excuse to fix prices at MSRP and then to tack as much to the end of the transaction as they can. If a dealer feels that they need an additional $50, or $100, or $300, to process paperwork they should include it in the "Pure Price" they advertise.

Note also the inflammatory tone of his words. This is the other reason George gets such vitriolic responses. Just about every post he makes sounds like something Lenin would have said. Price fixing, monopolies, hidden pitfalls, evil corporations and devious people lurking in the shadows are part of a dogma that sets a lot of folks on edge. This is also a dogma that is dominant in today's academia so this should not be surprising considering his profession.

I think that I speak for most involved with these forums when I say it is extremely irritating when you grossly generalize the ENTIRE industry and ALL who work for it as lying, conniving cheaters. That is simply not true, and you know it. It seems a bit childish to lump everyone into the same group.

I don't assume to speak for anyone but myself.

Show me where I have used the words "entire" or "all". You're trying to put those words in my mouth. Sorry, they won't go. I have always been careful to acknowledge (twice by example) that there are honest salespeople out there.

Sadly, my experience is that most salesmen are not forthright. They evade the "deal-killer" questions, attempt to manipulate the customer, and sometimes tell outright lies.

And I'm sure that the salesman who you purchased from, in addition to the Sears salesman, wouldn't be too pleased of your characterization either.

They wouldn't misinterpret my statements as you have. I'm sure they recognize the state of their profession and how they are different from others. They treated me well, paid attention to what I wanted, and made the sales. They didn't try to steer me around, sell me things I didn't want, or use other deceptive methods. They played fair, and I played fair. It can be done, and that is what separates the true professional salesman from the dilettantes.

Just like you would rather be judged by your individual merits, so would we. It's fine to educate customers (that's my job, too), but by constantly pointing the finger at ALL salesman as the devilin every situation, it continues the cycle of adversity that the industry has existed on for decades. I'm not saying that we could necessarily change everything here and now, but it oculd be a start.

Absolutely! The problem is that your idea of change seems to be that the customer should drop all defenses and trust the salesmen/dealers implicitly. Would _you_ do that, in their position?

I do genuinely find it interesting as to why you feel the way you do. I know the story, and you had some unfortunate encounters. But to demonize all for the actions of a few? Come on. Give (most of) us a break, would ya?

Again, you are trying to slip the word "all" into the discussion. That is your thought, not mine.

When most encounters result in blatent deceptive behavior on the part of the salesman, It is difficult to "give a break." The individual salesman is going to have to prove, thought his actions, that he "deserves a break."

George, of all people should be aware that any and all fees must be disclosed as part of Pure Price...

Those are supposedly the rules, but junk fees were _not_ disclosed at two of the four dealers I visited. This was despite direct inquiries on my part at the beginning of the process. It seems that using "$XX,XXX plus fees is considered sufficient disclosure by many dealers, even thought the salesmen won't tell you what those "fees" are beyond a vague "y'know, taxes and that sort of stuff".

Look, all I am suggesting is that buyers keep their heads up throughout the entire transaction and make sure that they understand everything before they agree to the transaction. They should be aware of the possibility of junk fees and other scams that could befall them. They should be willing to end the transaction if they don't feel comfortable with it or if they feel that the salesman isn't being honest with them.

If a salesman is on the up-and-up, he need not fear this. If the salesman isn't, he deserves the unwanted scrutiny.

George

Can't we all just get along? :lol:

On my dealership's website, we state at the bottom of the vehicle price page that all prices do not include tax, title, and license fees. We also state that there is a Document fee of $50. This is posted on my site, (www.dondavisscion.com, under new vehicle pricing), in my store, and in our paperwork. The only time a customer would not be told about this is if the salesperson misunderstood the question about junk fees or any other term used when asking. If I am asked to figure the "T,T, &L" for a customer, I also include the doc fee, and break down every line for them. There is no reason for me to cover up a $50 fee that doesn't even affect my paycheck. It doesn't go towards my gross profit, it goes to the accounting dept. No benefit to me.
George, perhaps the other salespeople misunderstood you, perhaps the lied to you; since i wasn't there, I will not try to pretend I know. My customers ask me to see things from their point of view, and if they can do the same for me, then we usually are both very happy at the end of the day.

Just about every post he makes sounds like something Lenin would have said.

ohhh.. you done gone and called him a commie :P

BLAH BLAH BLAH!!! :twisted:


To all who are trying to defend car dealerships and it's employees, I think we are beating the proverbial dead horse! I give up...my customers know I treat them in a fair and honest manner and I also know this to be true as you all do about your dealerships and yourselves. There is no use trying to bring George back from the pit of despair he has mired himself in. He has so much anomosity directed toward our kind nothing we could say or do would change that. :roll:

Just about every post he makes sounds like something Lenin would have said.

ohhh.. you done gone and called him a commie :P

Very funny.......almost spit out my lunch when i read that!

I contemplated whether to say Vladimir or John, but I figured people could draw their own conclusions. :lol:

I contemplated whether to say Vladimir or John, but I figured people could draw their own conclusions. :lol:

i think that's be Lennon... but ok :D

Can't we all just get along? :lol:

I hope so. I can't get through, but I am no longer interested. I will no longer take ownership of George's problem.

We shall both have our opinion, and that's that.

LATER, and long live Scion!!

Yikes.
I went and really opened up a can of worms...
So this post is about dead... ready to lock this one up yet?

I did enjoy the good fodder we had going with this post.
Good job guys making this a wonderfully colorful discussion.

Long live the forum. :D

On my dealership's website, we state at the bottom of the vehicle price page that all prices do not include tax, title, and license fees. We also state that there is a Document fee of $50. This is posted on my site, (www.dondavisscion.com, under new vehicle pricing), in my store, and in our paperwork.

I congratulate you on being forthright and posting this information. It would be nice if every dealer followed your lead.

It would be even nicer if the dealer simply added the documentation fee to the retail price, since that way the customer would know the true price of the car without having to do math.

The only time a customer would not be told about this is if the salesperson misunderstood the question about junk fees or any other term used when asking.

In my experience, many salesmen are very good at misunderstanding questions that they don't want to answer. That's one excuse I received from salesmen when I questioned why I wasn't told of the fees up front. The other excuse was that the documentation fee was a government mandate. :roll:

If I am asked to figure the "T,T, &L" for a customer, I also include the doc fee, and break down every line for them.

That's great! I asked the salesman to tell me "the number I will write on the check" (can I get any clearer than that?) and they still hemmed and hawed and said "I'll have to talk to the manager", etc. That's one thing that bothered me a lot. On a car that is supposedly fixed price, with no accessories, how could a salesman not know exactly what the price will be? I'm glad that you know.

George, perhaps the other salespeople misunderstood you, perhaps the lied to you; since i wasn't there, I will not try to pretend I know. My customers ask me to see things from their point of view, and if they can do the same for me, then we usually are both very happy at the end of the day.

As you know, I tend to be blunt. The only reason that a salesman would "misunderstand" me is if it suited them to do so. How could they misunderstand the question "Do you charge any non-governmental fees?" They knew precisely what I was asking, and they chose to sidestep it.

In any case, I'm glad that some dealers are at least revealing the fees up front. Now if we can just get the others to follow suit and, finally, to produce a true "pure price", where the number in large print is the actual number you pay without any add-on fees.

Baby steps, but we're getting closer.

George

[\quote]In any case, I'm glad that some dealers are at least revealing the fees up front. Now if we can just get the others to follow suit and, finally, to produce a true "pure price", where the number in large print is the actual number you pay without any add-on fees.

Baby steps, but we're getting closer.

George[/quote]

I agree George!! (wow, thats a first,lol) There are a couple small problems with "one price" though. Several different factors including new plate vs plate transfer, in state vs out of state...etc will still make it impossible for EVERYONE to pay the exact same price.[/quote]

I think we have said about all we can say, but i want to note one last thing.
George, you asked why we can't just include the doc fee in with the retail price. The answer is actually very simple. Everything in the retail price is taxable (in TX at least). So, if the price is $16,500 and then $50 doc fee is included, the taxable amount would be $16,550. Doc fees are added after taxes, so they cannot be included witht he retail price. It has to be listed seperately.

All dealerships WILL have to have doc fees posted up front on the websites, cars, and menus in the showroom by mid July.

The Scion Covenant was updated and this is one of the many new stipulations.

Remember, Scion never claimed they had everything 100% the first time. The first year has been largely an experiment and they're constantly evolving based on what's working and what's not. One thing that won't change though is the Scion Promise....

That customers will be in control and that the process will be transparant and open. Some dealerships have really resisted the Scion way and they have been acknowledged and will be penalized.

Listing the doc fee on the dealer Web site would be great. That would pretty much take all the legwork out of finding the best deal. I noticed a few that had it on there, but most did not.

This brings up an interesting point. Would you prefer to buy from a dealer that has a $225 doc fee and is open about it or $99 and have it sprung on you at the last moment?

If I'm going to pay it either way, I want the lowest. That's why it pays to research this stuff before you even goto the dealer.

I think we have said about all we can say, but i want to note one last thing.
George, you asked why we can't just include the doc fee in with the retail price. The answer is actually very simple. Everything in the retail price is taxable (in TX at least). So, if the price is $16,500 and then $50 doc fee is included, the taxable amount would be $16,550. Doc fees are added after taxes, so they cannot be included witht he retail price. It has to be listed seperately.
The error here is in assuming that the documentation fee is required at all. I really doubt that the dealer, who has just charged the customer a junk fee, is going to care about whether the fee is taxable or not. It's just another diversion from the fact that the fee is a baldfaced method to charge the customer more money than the advertised price.

If the dealer was so concerned about the customer's tax liability, why not sell the car for $50 and charge a $16,500 documentation fee? :)


All dealerships WILL have to have doc fees posted up front on the websites, cars, and menus in the showroom by mid July.

The Scion Covenant was updated and this is one of the many new stipulations.

This is interesting. Salesmen have repeatedly asserted in these forums that fee disclosure "up front" was already a part of the covenant. Were they mistaken?


Remember, Scion never claimed they had everything 100% the first time. The first year has been largely an experiment and they're constantly evolving based on what's working and what's not.

I don't know of any marketer who admits any flaw, at least to the public. As a customer, I really don't appreciate being their beta tester. I get enough of that from M$.

One thing that won't change though is the Scion Promise....

That customers will be in control and that the process will be transparant and open.

Customers have always been in control, legally, as they can walk out at any time. This part of the "promise" isn't any change from the norm.

As far as transparent, there is a lot of leeway there. Will dealers advertise thus:

Scion xB: $15,500+$50 Documentation fee

Or will they advertise more like this:

Scion xB: $15,500+fees

(or worse, with a dreaded asterisk)

If they do the latter, it's no change from car business as usual. The small print makes the bold print meaningless.

Some dealerships have really resisted the Scion way and they have been acknowledged and will be penalized.

Have any dealers lost their Scion franchise? It seems to me that Scion is just juggling the vehicle allocations of offending dealers a bit. Fewer cars now, but it'll even out in the end. If an offending dealer has already taken deposits on their allocations, the customers get punished too, and may not even be told of why their cars have been delayed. What is Scion doing to mitigate that?

This brings up an interesting point. Would you prefer to buy from a dealer that has a $225 doc fee and is open about it or $99 and have it sprung on you at the last moment?

Neither. I'll go to a dealer who doesn't charge junk fees at all.

George

If I'm going to pay it either way, I want the lowest. That's why it pays to research this stuff before you even goto the dealer.

So honesty has no value to you. I'm not slamming you for this. I actually appreciate your honesty in admitting this. This is precicely the reason dealers play these games. They know you'll tolerate them to save a dollar.

As far as transparent, there is a lot of leeway there. Will dealers advertise thus:

Scion xB: $15,500+$50 Documentation fee

Or will they advertise more like this:

Scion xB: $15,500+fees

(or worse, with a dreaded asterisk)



Allright sport, because it would have to look like this:

$15,500 + $50 Documentation Fee + 6.25% Sales Tax + .269% Inventory Tax + Liscense Fees + $5 Full Service Deputy Fee

I think that the astrick is a little better when it comes to advertising

And I have to wonder George, how does it feel to know that when you get on-line you have to defend EVERY statement you make? I don't know about the rest of the dealers on here, but all of the customer's that I have sold Scion's to have been very happy with the sales process.

As far as transparent, there is a lot of leeway there. Will dealers advertise thus:

Scion xB: $15,500+$50 Documentation fee

Or will they advertise more like this:

Scion xB: $15,500+fees

(or worse, with a dreaded asterisk)



Allright sport, because it would have to look like this:

$15,500 + $50 Documentation Fee + 6.25% Sales Tax + .269% Inventory Tax + Liscense Fees + $5 Full Service Deputy Fee

No. There is an obvious distinction between government taxes/fees that are the same for all dealers and junk fees that vary widely from dealer to dealer.

The government fees go to the government, the junk fees go into the dealer's pocket. The dealer shouldn't have to include the government fees in his advertised prices any more than any other retailer. Junk fees, however, are controlled completely by the dealer and should be included in the advertised price.

I think that the astrick is a little better when it comes to advertising

I'm sure that you would think so, since it gives the ad-writer the ability to advertise a fantasy price in bold print and then hide the bad news in 6-point type at the bottom of the page.

And I have to wonder George, how does it feel to know that when you get on-line you have to defend EVERY statement you make?

Umm, it's called a "forum". Discussion is expected! If salesmen want to tag-team that's fine by me!

I don't know about the rest of the dealers on here, but all of the customer's that I have sold Scion's to have been very happy with the sales process.

Spoken like a true salesman!

I was satisfied with the sales process at the dealer where I purchased my xB.

I was not happy at the dealers where I didn't purchase a car.

See the correlation? :)

The government fees go to the government, the junk fees go into the dealer's pocket. The dealer shouldn't have to include the government fees in his advertised prices any more than any other retailer. Junk fees, however, are controlled completely by the dealer and should be included in the advertised price.

So the government again gets its pound of flesh without a whimper but if it end up in the private sector, its a "junk fee." Seriously George, I get what you are saying, but your insistance on using this kind of language is what gets everybody in a tizzy over your posts. When you choose to use anti-business, nanny-goverment buzz words and phrases, you can expect to get reactions. There are those of us to whom Socialist commentary is akin to fingernails on a blackboard. Nothing personal George, but you are diluting your own message by offending the capitalist of the group.

Very well put Cliffy.

The government fees go to the government, the junk fees go into the dealer's pocket. The dealer shouldn't have to include the government fees in his advertised prices any more than any other retailer. Junk fees, however, are controlled completely by the dealer and should be included in the advertised price.

So the government again gets its pound of flesh without a whimper but if it end up in the private sector, its a "junk fee."

Everybody pays the same government fees no matter what dealer you buy at, so there is no point in including them in a comparison. I don't like taxes, but they are a fact of life. After all, in a democracy, we _are_ the government.

Seriously George, I get what you are saying, but your insistance on using this kind of language is what gets everybody in a tizzy over your posts.

Well, it gets the salesmen in a tizzy, at least! :) I doubt that car buyers would object to the term.

When you choose to use anti-business, nanny-goverment buzz words and phrases, you can expect to get reactions. There are those of us to whom Socialist commentary is akin to fingernails on a blackboard. Nothing personal George, but you are diluting your own message by offending the capitalist of the group.

It is not often I'm accused of being a socialist! :) You _really_ don't know me!

I use the term "junk fees" because everyone understands what a junk fee is. It's a fee tacked onto the price by the seller for their own purposes. Dealers, of course, are not happy with this term, but they are seldom happy with plain talk. They'd rather obfuscate the issue with official-sounding names like "documentation fee", "customer service fee", "accommodation fee", or whatever else their fertile imaginations come up with.

George

george i'm curious, have you ever had any utilities transferred to a different home? i moved out of my house into a townhouse last week and had to switch over my gas, electric, and cable. $20 transfer fees with each bill. they were able to deactivate and activate service over the phone within 30 seconds each time. when i started each account they required even higher startup fees. fair? who knows, it's the price i have to pay to do business with them. simple enough.

if you don't want to pay it find a dealer that doesn't charge it. that's what the pure pricing solution is all about. you can shop at each dealer's website, where ALL numbers are disclosed up front.

and if you think a 500-600 dollar markup should cover the dealer's end, sorry it doesn't either. at my dealer average cost to sell a car is 1700 (including advertising, pack, etc...). so we lose. parts and service makes up for it though. however, that is not an excuse to never try and recoup your cost up front. we charge 99.50 here. do i like it? no, but its there. when i was on commission 350 of the gross of each deal went to the owner and to cover other costs. didn't like that either. cost of doing business. that doc fee doesn't get factored into the gross. the salesman doesn't get paid off it. goes who knows where, to the company to make money. GASP, a business making money. granted some fees are just greedy. 50-100 seems modest to me to do business. 500 is ridiculous.

there's such animosity for car dealership's wanting to make money. just like every other business. at least they are up front about it.

George, you are correct that I don't know you, which is why I tried to ensure that you didn't think I was calling you a socialist. I indicated that you are using terms and phrases that sound very much like those that a Socialist would use. You may or may not have been aware of that.

I would also point out that it is NOT up to the dealership to call a fee anything. At least not in many states. Here in VA, any fee MUST be called a processing fee and if we charge it to anybody, we must charge it to all or risk a discrimination suit. Your accusations of how this is handled are off base.

I also remain floored by your overall attitude. It seems we must all agree 100% with you or risk your venom and distain. Ignoring the fact that this is the mark of political extremism (either right or left), its not conducive to good discussion. There are those of us here who are genuinely interested in making this a better experience for consumers, yet all we get are insults and put-downs. When your only response to a valid point is to claim its a typical salesman response, it does nothing to increase understanding by consumers. Believe me... me and the other guys who frequent this site and take the time to talk to you are far from the "typical salesman" you intend to lump us in with.

Chill George. You're an educator and an engineer. I have assumed you are an intelligent guy. Being an intelligent guy, I would hope that you would look a bit more critically at your words and attitudes.

It's a fee tacked onto the price by the seller for their own purposes

Yea, and that purpose is to make money, which is what we are in this buisness for. And yes George that is spoken like a true salesmen like I know you are going to say.

I think that doc fees should be disclosed, and I do disclose them to all of my customers as well as all of the tax title and lic. fees.

George, you are correct that I don't know you, which is why I tried to ensure that you didn't think I was calling you a socialist. I indicated that you are using terms and phrases that sound very much like those that a Socialist would use. You may or may not have been aware of that.

Well, I've been accused of tarring all salesmen with the same brush, something that isn't true, but I'll be generous and call it even.

I would also point out that it is NOT up to the dealership to call a fee anything. At least not in many states. Here in VA, any fee MUST be called a processing fee and if we charge it to anybody, we must charge it to all or risk a discrimination suit. Your accusations of how this is handled are off base.

Yes, some states do regulate dealer fees to prevent abuses. Others do not. However, the fact that you have to "charge it to all" doesn't mean that you have to charge it at all! It's the dealer's option, and some dealers are straightforward enough to put all their profit into the price they advertise and dispense with junk fees.

I also remain floored by your overall attitude. It seems we must all agree 100% with you or risk your venom and distain.

If you attempt to justify questionable practices, then you can expect me to disagree with you. If your dealer's practice is to split your true charges so that you can advertise a lower price, you'll find that I don't approve of the practice. The fact that a practice is common doesn't make it desirable or ethical.

I doubt that you'll find anyone on the customer side of the table that appreciates having the pricing made more complex simply so that the dealer can advertise a lower number and then pocket more money from the customer. If stating this qualifies as "venom and disdain" to you, so be it.

Ignoring the fact that this is the mark of political extremism (either right or left),

You keep trying to drag politics into the discussion. Sorry, but it's not a matter of politics, but one of honesty and clarity.

its not conducive to good discussion. There are those of us here who are genuinely interested in making this a better experience for consumers, yet all we get are insults and put-downs.

Well, I am skeptical of this. In my experience, things are pretty much business as usual. The only thing changed with Scion is that the MSRP is fixed. While individual salesmen may want to improve the situation, the fact is that the dealers are in control and the majority are continuing the same practices that they used in the past.

When your only response to a valid point is to claim its a typical salesman response,

That isn't my only response, and you know it. I hardly call a broad, unverifiable statement such as "all my buyers are happy" or even one that is obvously false like "all dealers charge documentation fees" to be a "valid point". Some folks would call it "a big lie". It seems that some salesmen have been making such broad claims for so long that they don't realize how hollow they sound. Should such claims be accepted as gospel simply because the salesman states them with conviction?

it does nothing to increase understanding by consumers.

On the contrary, this discussion has probably increased understanding quite a bit. If nothing else, the folks reading this thread will know a few additional questions to ask when they come to visit you and be aware of some of the pitfalls that thay will face.

Believe me... me and the other guys who frequent this site and take the time to talk to you are far from the "typical salesman" you intend to lump us in with.

I agree. I don't lump anyone into a group. Folks lump themselves quite well without assistance.

Chill George. You're an educator and an engineer. I have assumed you are an intelligent guy. Being an intelligent guy, I would hope that you would look a bit more critically at your words and attitudes.

If, by "chill", you mean that I should go away and stop informing prospective scion buyers of things to watch out for, then you will be disappointed. I'm an educator and can't really help educating! If your dealership is on the up-and-up, then you really don't have anything to worry about, right?