If someone changed the set up on our cars to induced oversteer rather than understeer, what would the results be? Would be be doing 360's at every turn since our cars are FWD and would not handle a oversteered car as well as a RWD? Thanks

More like 180s. A FWD car can handle a decent amount of tail swinging as long as it doesnt come on too aggressively to cause a snap effect. Stiffer rear sway bars and spring rates can induce a more oversteery car, but go too far and the car will be uncontrollable. A car that gently swings out and is correctable is going to be very fast in the hands of a skilled driver. In fact, many FWD race drivers prefer a car that exhibits lift-throttle oversteer to allow them to enter corners faster by having the car rotate at corner entry. A little bit of throttle control and counter steer will allow them to carry more speed through the corner allowing for faster lap times.

This is not a setup that is appropriate for daily use as uneven pavement, road crowning or water/oil on the roads can cause you to lose control and hurt yourself an/or others.

Thanks, good information i tried searching the effects of oversteer for a fwd car.

Great info as always by the Instigator dude:)

You can improve the handling with stiffer springs and rear bar without to much danger if done moderately.

I have alot of experience with oversteering so am comfortable with more than most would want on the street but it only occors if I really go hard at it which is perfect for me.

I use practially zero rear camber and when autocrossing will sometime dial in some rear toe out, never on the street though.

For most, the stiffer bar and rear springs will be just about right.

Rick

One more thing, please do not overly lower your car, that will destroy a huge amount of the handling capability. I run 1" gap over my tires to the fender openings which works really well. My tires are shorter than stock, the lowest I would have a tC on stock diameter tires is 3/4" but even then you may be reducing the handling capacity.

This is not something I pulled out of my arse, I have completed measured every aspect of the suspension geometry and know abosolutely I am correct, been modding imports now for nearly 40 years;)

Rick

great input by both guys, as always
i take everything you both say seriously and try and put it towards my driving ability

i have been driving/semi-racing for a good 5years, but you can never know everything, especially in this sport!

again, great input

Great info as always by the Instigator dude:)

You can improve the handling with stiffer springs and rear bar without to much danger if done moderately.

I have alot of experience with oversteering so am comfortable with more than most would want on the street but it only occors if I really go hard at it which is perfect for me.

I use practially zero rear camber and when autocrossing will sometime dial in some rear toe out, never on the street though.

For most, the stiffer bar and rear springs will be just about right.

Rick

So what springs / bar would you recommend? I hate understeer with a passion and want to virtually eliminate it.

Start with stiffening the rear up with either the Progress or Hotchkis rear bar. The stock shocks and springs are quite soft so a spring/shock or coilover setup will also help. A FWD car will always exhibit some level of understeer since the front tires are being asked to accelerate, brake and steer the car so by undertanding the inherent issues, you can adjust your driving to avoid undeersteer inducing situations.

Whatever Rick (raamaudio) says is usually either 100% right or so confusing b/c it's filled with technical knowlegdge it's GOTTA be right.

lol :D

I think somebody else here is posting more usefull info on this thread than I am;)

:)

Rick

I have the TRD Rear Sway, Lowering Springs, Shocks; Hotchkis Front Strut Bar, and Ingalls Rear Strut Brace. You're not going to be doing any "Drifting"...

http://www.phonecontent.com/bm/moxiepix/a1511.jpg

...But the car does slide nicely around corners, especially at moderate speed.

great info ^^.

Anyone wanna talk about LFB?

That is somethingn I am having alot of trouble learning after 38 years of almost always RWD, old dog, new trick syndrome they call it, lol!

Rick

wider tires on the front help as well. generally more track oriented FWD cars have wider in the front. helps the back end come around a little better when going through turns.

I agree but nice to be able to rotate tires front to back to get more time out of them. Notice I said time, not miles;)

Rick

P.S. Some use the same size tires but different width wheels for the reason of less rubber on the ground, seems odd but it has proven to work, maybe the size tires they wanted were not being manf.

well if you are going to be doing track racing, then buy another set of rims. you don't want to drive up on your new tires that are made for the track.

One more thing, please do not overly lower your car, that will destroy a huge amount of the handling capability. I run 1" gap over my tires to the fender openings which works really well. My tires are shorter than stock, the lowest I would have a tC on stock diameter tires is 3/4" but even then you may be reducing the handling capacity.

This is not something I pulled out of my arse, I have completed measured every aspect of the suspension geometry and know abosolutely I am correct, been modding imports now for nearly 40 years;)

Rick

so would you want slighly smaller or slightly larger gap if you had 18 inch wheels? or would it be the same? i dont know if the diameter changes or if the tire just gets more low profile to compensate? thanks

If you want your speedometer to read correctly you match up the tire diameter to the stock on, no matter if running 15,16,17,18, 19 or 20" wheels.

Tire diameter is what is important here, not wheel(though real performance wheels are not overly large in diameter)

If the diameter tire is smaller than stock then increase the gap to compensate. If taller than stock, then less gab is recommended.

Since the car is already geared a bit to low I would tend to slightly larger diameter tires which gives less gap yet still helps keep the geometry in check.

But, the car will not sit quite as low, always a but here and there in doing such things!

Rick

do you happen to know what kind of offset you can use on the tc? and a common combo for 18" wheels? for tire and wheel size? thanks!!!

You can go really wide, like an 8.5 with 245 tires, you will have to look up the diameter depending on the tires you buy, offset would be +45 to +48 mm.

---------------------------------------

8" wide would be best to stick with a 235 or 225 tire but 245 will work ok as well. You can run 235 tires on 8's with a 35mm offset, what I have for my street setup.

----------------------------------------

For a 7.5 wide wheel I would not go over a 225 wide tire, +30mm should fit fine(if any are even made)
---------------------------------------------

It is generally best to stay around a 45 or close to it offset for long term reliability, less stress on key parts like wheel bearings. I am not worried about that so I run as little offset as I can:)

If you are more into looks than performance then 18's are ok but at least get the lightest ones you can afford.

If you are into performance more than looks, get 17's, what I run on my race and street tires. I would run 16's if they would fit over my BBK(which I have for track days, not needed for street but they do look sweet:)

Rick

so your saying 45mm offset is good for parts, do we have offset on the car when its stock? .. and you said you run as little offset as you can .. i thought having offset was a good thing because it gives you a wider wheelbase? maybe im confused... helpful with the tire sizes though, thank you

Ok...I have a question!!...Should I diffinately get rid of the stock Yoko's then?...eventhough they cost $188 a pop...they "squeal" and dont feel like they grip well around corners...so will better tires make a BIG differance?...or I really need a Rear Sway??

i got the progress rear sway only and put it on medium, what a difference, if you go into a corner at moderate speed, and turn in your back side trails out a little and turns the corner a lot sharper but when you gas out of the turn it stops .. its great even though i have stock tires, i cant imagine what it would be like with nice tires and some coilovers...

Stock Brigrocks are total crap, Yokos are a bit better but still far from optimal.

You will get the most bang for the buck with better tires, period!

I was lucky, a buddy gave me $200 trade in on stock crap tires:):)


All the other places did not even want them, that is pretty bad!

Depending on your needs there are some great tires available, all season, summer only, etc. and some of them are very affordable.

Rick

Stock Brigrocks are total crap, Yokos are a bit better but still far from optimal.

You will get the most bang for the buck with better tires, period!

I was lucky, a buddy gave me $200 trade in on stock crap tires:):)


All the other places did not even want them, that is pretty bad!

Depending on your needs there are some great tires available, all season, summer only, etc. and some of them are very affordable.

Rick


any idea how much tires go for?

Best to start with what you need(want) from them first.

-Do you drive in the snow, ice, heavy rain, if so how much, etc?

-Autocross, track days, drag race?

-General budget idea?

-More than one set of wheels and tires?

Need more info to answer your quetion,

Rick

Best to start with what you need(want) from them first.

-Do you drive in the snow, ice, heavy rain, if so how much, etc?

-Autocross, track days, drag race?

-General budget idea?

-More than one set of wheels and tires?

Need more info to answer your quetion,

Rick


southern california weather... mostly sunny, rain in the winter sometimes.. i would like to try autocross so i need a good tire that is streetable but still sufficient enough for autocross.. just one set . budget.. if i dont spend it on tires, its going into coilovers or a turbo... so cheaper would be nice but im willing to sacrifice to get a nice set.. it all depends on what im getting you know? thanks again

I forgot to ask if you are considering aftermarket wheels, I would highly recommend the widest and lightest ones you can afford so you can get as much rubber on the ground as possible.

BUT, what class autocross, once you go turbo you are in one very very fast class, street mod, you can run as wide as you wish there but to be even close to competitive must run super sticky DOT race tires.

Without going turbo(depending on other mods as well) you can stay in STS, STX, etc, where you are limited to 7.5" wide wheels and tires and with a tread wear rating of 140+(pretty sure that is the correct number) you can get some decent milage out of them on the street.

The right wheel and tire combo is still going to get you the most beninfit, over struts, over a turbo, etc for autocross.

You do not have to spend a fortune on wheels and tires, or just tires alone if keeping the stock wheels.

(I used to autocross in So Cal in 2003, turbo Matrix, SM class and very fast;)

I would go with the Falcon RT-615 if you want the ultimate tire in your class(until you turbo that is where you would then be in SM)

Or, another great tire, can handle the rain much better, close to the same lateral grip, a bit less weight, a bit less forward and breaking grip, the Hankook RS212 like I run up here in the Northwest, they are my transit to event and wet weather autocross tires and I really love them on the street.

They have tremedous grip on the mountain runs I do on occasion but if you overdo it they are very forgiving, not always something you can find in an ultra high performance tire and very affordable.

Niether of these tires will last a really long time by that is true for all tires with that much performance.

(as for coilovers, I may be selling a set of Tein SSPs very soon, once I finish testing what am now running;)

Rick

If you're going to your first autocross, try to remember that you're going to be there to learn as much as you can. You aren't going to win at your first event, and you may not win at your first 10 events. Remember that spending money on "go fast" parts isn't going to make you win in an autoX or at a track. The MOST important thing is experience. You'll be competing against 60 year old men who have been doing this their whole lives. Don't expect to beat them right away, because you won't. Don't let this discourage you. Go to learn car control, try to be able to put the car where you want it, when you want and how you want it. Once you've mastered that, once autoX feels slow, then you're ready to move up a level. Initially you'll finish a run and think, "Man I was flying," but wind up DAL (dead arse last). Get a few days under your belt and you'll finish a run thinking "That was really smooth, but really slow," and realize that you're in second place and .03 seconds behind 1st.

The key to making a car go fast is the person driving it. You could hand the best autoX car in the world to an inexperienced driver, and he would likely get beaten by less suitable cars. However, hand a less than ideal car to the best drivers and watch the magic.

Just my 2 cents.

-Tide

I went through a string of Saab 900s (the *real* ones they made until early 1993 before GM bought them and stopped production and renamed the Opel the "900"). They were FWD, but always, always always completely neutral through turns. I used to flog them pretty seriously through the California mountains (where if you screw up you go straight down 1000 feet!) and never, ever, had one do anything but 4wheel drift. Never understeer, never oversteer. It was childs play to hang with 911s through curves with those things. A 900 was one of the most seat of the pants drivers ever made -- terrible shame GM screwed up like that. The new 900 (called the 9-3 now) has plain old struts in front. I drove one. Yuck, drives like anything else.

The old 900 had twin A-arms in front. The Opel/900 had struts. I miss real suspensions.

i got a ride in my friends evo up the crest in california... something else... i had to change my skivvies

Last time I drove a stock tC guys, it seemed to have more of a tendency to oversteer than understeer which is quite strange for a car at its level. I remeber it was even critized for being a car marketed to young dirvers that has a tendency to oversteer, as yound drivers are less used to and less ready for a car with that kind of handling traits, and the .

I would think with a little driver finesse it could be done. I remeber fooling around and I would go hard into a corner and then brake putting me into a nice little tail out drift, it was fun and pretty to watch but it made me a lil slower.

These cars DO NOT have a tendency to oversteer...there have been cases of snap oversteer, but snap oversteer occurs in most FWD cars, just some more than others. With the way this car is set up, it pushes very heavily, especially in stock form.

I've got H&R coilovers and a progress rear sway on medium, and it still pushes at its limits all the way around the track. I'm not saying you can't get the back end to come out if you play with it, but it won't be faster... it just might keep you from going off the track (or meeting a curb if you like playing with fire on the street).

That being said, my mods have helped the car a lot and it is substantially more stable and predictable now. But it definitely does not have a dominant tendency to oversteer.

good to know. Thanks for posting

yes, thanks. only a few more months before i escape this place and can really DRIVE to see for myself

Ok, I read my last post and it seems depressing.

The mods I have are good mods and have had a very large impact. Example:

Last time I was at the track there was another tC there with just the Progress sway, no coilovers. We running the same size and type of tire. The head instructor was driving his car and I was able to pass him simply because I could carry more speed through the turns, the track was pretty fast and the tC doesn't accelerate well at high speeds so the extra speed coming out of the turn became a huge impact. I would call myself only a fair driver.

I'm not trying to discourage people from doing suspension mods, they do help quite a bit.

-Tide

I have the TRD Rear Sway, Lowering Springs, Shocks; Hotchkis Front Strut Bar, and Ingalls Rear Strut Brace. You're not going to be doing any "Drifting"...

http://www.phonecontent.com/bm/moxiepix/a1511.jpg

...But the car does slide nicely around corners, especially at moderate speed.

Are we talking sliding of the lift-throttle variety?