Ok, so it was just a dream . . . but I got your attention, didn't I? I've read those articles about the drifting scene . . . and now it is here in the US. I was lucky enough to witness this first hand when I was in Japan . . . what a blast! It is only a matter of time before car companies start bring out RWD cars again.

The coolest part is that you only need 100 to 150 horsepower and a limited slip differential. It would be cheap to insure, and best of all it would be RWD just like real race cars are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Imagine a two door Matrix (this is how the Matrix SHOULD have been), with a 2.4L 4 cylinder, RWD. It will also have a sporty suspension, close ratio transmission, limited slip differential, and no sunroofs (I hope the sunroofs are optional, they must weigh 100+ lbs! Plus the fact that all of this weight in the top of the car adds to its center of gravity, and might make it feel more like a bus)!

Available on the aftermarket would be many different rear differential gearsets that would allow racers to make their car faster by just installing new rear gears . . . (Drool!)

It would be a new player on the drifting scene; now that everyone has switched to a front wheel drive layout. Think of it! All of the euro cars (except VW, but who cares about them!) have RWD, it has a sense of sporty-luxury to it! Luxury cars shouldn't be the only car on the market with RWD!

:D 8) Toyota needs to make more RWD cars!

I agree. I have thought about this for a while. In Japan the bB comes in 4WD. You gotta wonder how hard it would be to convert a Scion xB (which might have the driveline tunnel and mounting points for a rear axle?) to RWD? Yeah, you would have to figure out a way to convert the two front axles to a single rear driveline... but other than that "little" problem....

BTW: I bought an 85 Toyota Corolla GT-S (AE86) on Friday for $500 just to use for drift practice. They are hard to find and sell for up to $5000 on eBay! Take a hint Scion!!!

** UPDATE **
That Corolla that I bought for $500? I sold it on eBay for $5500 in pretty much the same condition... faded paint and weathered interior. Wow.
** UPDATE **

Darren

i heard at school (toyota) that they are bring back the rear wheel drive corolla gts with the 20 valve engine.

I think that if they can do it priced competitively with a Civic or Focus then they will SCORE big time. That would be the first step.

The second step would be to make sure that aftermarket parts are availabel immediately after the car is released.

Lastly, althought it might not be practical, Toyota should design engine interchangability into the design. I would like to be able to pull out the base motor and wedge in the 2ZZ-GE or something. I mean, they don't need to worry about electronics or anything, just the basic engine mounts, etc... so that it is easier to do.

"Build it and they will come"

Darren

true but from froma technicians point the 2ZZ engine is not a good powerplant it its very limited to major mods.

True, I have read the same things. But my point is to make it easy to make swaps happen... the enthusiast will take it from there. That is one reason the Civic was so popular!

I mean, why not make it so a Chevy 350 will fit right in? <grin> Should Toyota care that people are buying their cars and throwing away the engines? Selling a car is still selling a car. Might as well build an awesome-handling drifter with a crappy engine that can easily be replaced with something with gobs of power.

Darren

Its one thing I wish Toyota would bring back. Toyota used to have Celicas with AWD hell they used to have turbos too. I guess they went away for cost or maybe repair reasons, I really don't know why. It's fuuny though because they really missed out on the import scene right when it got big. I wasn't even old enough to own these but I wish toyota would bring them back

Think about it... if the last model Tercels (95-00?) were RWD do you think that we would be snapping them up right now? Hell yeah. The ingredients:

Front engine / RWD
5-Spd Trans w LSD
Lightweight chassis
Cost competitive with other FWD cars in class

The first car company to bring that car out is going to reap the rewards, big time. Maybe it won't be Toyota... I would buy a Sentra or Suzuki RWD in a heartbeat!

Darren

okay what about (IVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS) when the IS300 goes thru model change, soon i believe, why not simplify the design: simpler non hid headlights no altezzas on the altezza! no leather no rich people goodies etc. throw in one of the jdm lower displacent engines with lsd. sell it monospec 16,999 for a five speed 17,700 for the slushbox call it the ..... i dunno ZD XD oooooo RD how dope right? this would be a true civic killer. i mean why buy an ex civic sedan when you could have an easily modded rwd scion RD? Id buy it! oh wait the fist letter is lower case so rD!

I am not even joking on this. This pattern would fall instep with the low risk approach that toyota has taken on the xa and xb this car could be easily brought to market and easily sold undercutting ALOT of mfgs. espicially if BMW goes for a 1 series car that theyve been talking about for awhile.

sedan form would make this car the most viable i think as far as market strategy. okay now laugh at my idea if you want.

man i atleast wanted somebody to make fun of me on this! Is it the hasselhoff avatar? Do his ever watching eyes pierce even your souls?

if so i'll change the hasselhoff

Not a bad idea... a 2.0L NA engine with RWD, cloth and just the "basics".... but Lexus would never allow the car to be diluted. The look would have to be changed to differentiate it between the IS300. It is a good platform to start with... I think that it could be done!

Darren

oh i completely agree the two cars next to each other would certainly have to be very different. Honestly as much i have always really liked the altezza since i first saw it when i was in japan ive always thought the design too busy. lets face it the could make the scion version EXTREMELY simple and people would line up for it (see xB) i think the retooling would be worth it.

when i went to the scion launch for oklahoma dealers i was told by our rep. from gst (gulf states toyota, the ditributor in the south) that they were dropping the celica gts engine in the corolla, 6 speed tranny and all.

Count me in too! Every serious performance automobile is RWD: Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, MB, etc. Screw torque-steer in favor of drift. 8)

I voted "Yes" but not for "drifting". I have never understood why someone would want to corner SLOWLY!!!! The fastest way around a corner is with RWD and all tires on the edge of braking loose, not already loose!! I prefer REAL racing not just showing off.

There is NO sensation/RUSH like slaming a series of corners as close to perfect as possible, using all the avialable traction for braking/cornering/accelerating and every inch of avialable pavement to get it done. Especially when I'm coming up on a BMW that thinks he's being "sporty" on the corners. I own a BMW too and have owned 2 others in the past including a M5. Most people that own them have no concept of their cars capabilities, sad really..... Posers!!

Legal Disclaimer for you young and foolish: NEVER do this in traffic, you have the right to jeprodize your life but you have no right to jeprodise the other people on the highway. If you crash and die, don't expect sympathy from me... you made your choice, think of it as "Darwinism" in action. There is a huge difference between driving agressively and reckless!!! OK, I'm off my soapbox

ken

I voted "Yes" but not for "drifting". I have never understood why someone would want to corner SLOWLY!!!! The fastest way around a corner is with RWD and all tires on the edge of braking loose, not already loose!! I prefer REAL racing not just showing off.

There is NO sensation/RUSH like slaming a series of corners as close to perfect as possible, using all the avialable traction for braking/cornering/accelerating and every inch of avialable pavement to get it done.

I think there's a time and place for everything... and although taking a corner "correctly" is faster, it's not always the most fun and exhilirating way! Taking a corner at the speeds professional, and high-level drifters are running nowadays (which is sometimes just about as fast as if one wasn't drifting the same corner) does give you a pretty nice rush, and there's no doubt that it requires a lot of skill and ability to do well. Riding with a friend who does both road racing, and drifting (he competed at the D1 event also), I've learned that there's fun to be had either way. Of course, drifting is slower, but then again, drifting isn't about speed. There's a time and place for everything... just like figure skating vs. speed skating. :)

SR20DET's are tight...but for drift a KA24E will do just fine. All beit you can do with 150HP, 250 would break grip alot easier.

Drift dream car:

1991 Nissan 240SX
KA24DE - Fmax Turbo Stage II
JIC FLT-A2
Cusco control arms
Whiteline bushings all around
ACT Stage III clutch to hammer traction real quick...

Well, I have a 1990 with H&R springs and AGX's struts....so im getting there... but with the addition of the xB to the family, she will be sent off...

Completely gutted interior, two seats and a dahs board. Corbeau 4 point bolt in harness and the aformentioned suspension. She breaks grip damn easily and I have had alot of fun with them.

As for Japan bringing back the RWD sports car, its already happened. No one said it would be cheap tho:

Mazda RX-8
Infinity G35
Lexus SC430
Nissan 350Z


Pretty soon the market will level, the demand will be up and the Supra will return @ a much lower cost (heard of @ lower than 30k) Its a matter of time. Keep your eye on Mazda in particular as things are happening...

Drifting is cool but it is expensive tires aren't cheap.

I am sure that Scion has an AWD or a RWD car in the making. I heard somewhere that the tC was going to have the AWD system, but changed it after they started the vehicle.
It would be nice though if the tC was a RWD car. 2.4ltr motor with that much tq would be just right. On top of that, adding the TRD supercharger would be even better.

I just recently sold off my Datsun 510 wagon to get an 88 Mitsubishi Starion- rwd with limited slip, 2.6L turbo power!!! I had forgotten how fun donuts are! I love my 'box, but there are times that I yearn for a bit more "fun factor" out of it... I'll just have to wait for someone to swap a Subaru STI drivetrain into one!

-Phil and Vicki

Hey guys, I'm sure you have noticed that there is a LOT of discussion (begging) for a new RWD car to come along. I can GAURANTEE you that at least one of the Japanese mfgs is going to come through with this request in the near future. They would have to be blind to ignore the demand.

The question is, who will be the first? I hope Toyota!

Darren

Make sure it has LSD! Drifting will slowly pick up like the whole import racing scene. What I know will happen is you'll have a punk driftin during high traffic and taking out pedestrians.

One of the biggest reasons for me buying an xB is the fact it is FWD with traction control and VSC. Heck of alot more traction in the snow and You dont go anywhere fast by sliding or spinning tires.

it seems everywhere i go someone is hating on drifting....who cares if it isn't faster? thats not the point. sure its more expensive, doesn't mean because you can't afford it that you should talk smack about those who can. ridiculous. and btw, i can't afford the new tires either. but, yeah i would like a rwd car by scion, or anyone who makes a half decent product....fun car, not the drive in the snow car.....

That would be neat if auto makers offered a low-cost RWD nowadays. My current ride ('90 Volvo Wagon) is RWD and although underpowered it is fun to drive. Snow is another matter, I've gotten used to it though. Newer cars that offer RWD should come with push-button stability control. Offer that and your set. :D

although i understand some of your arguments, you can't forget that this car IS an economy car and has to use what platforms and equipment that is already available out there from Toyota and Scion.

Besides the fact that RWD would really offer no real-world advantage over FWD other than drifting and drag racing, i can hardly think it would be financially worthwhile for Scion and/or Toyota to develop/use that. If you want to learn or practice drifting, there are plenty of mid 80's japanese boxes out there to buy and tear into. (and add to that early 90's.) But thats my opinion. If drifting is becoming THAT big that the demand is there, well.... maybe i'm just old and didn't realize it. The reason that most economy cars changed from rear-drive (as in the 80's and early 90's) to front drive is due to better handling and less expensive to build. If Scion was to make one car rear wheel, i'd have to cast the vote for the tC..... that is the only car they make that would make sense to offer RWD.

otherwise FWD works for me in this car and price range :)

-ABT-

Not a bad idea... a 2.0L NA engine with RWD, cloth and just the "basics".... but Lexus would never allow the car to be diluted. The look would have to be changed to differentiate it between the IS300. It is a good platform to start with... I think that it could be done!

Darren


They already make this car, more or less.

There is a Lexus IS200 2.0 liter sold in Japan and Europe. It's not "basic" but it's decontented from the IS300 and considerably less expensive.

I'd love RWD, but maybe not in a scion. Scions are fun, cheap, well built cars. RWD is more of a luxury in this day and age, like the list of new RWD cars from the major makers.

Drifting is fun. The skill level is very different from road racing, but the cars are set up very similarly. If its not your thing, then its not your thing. I think drifting is tremendous fun and look foreward to one day when I can buy my own RWD car to knock over cones with =)

If you live in California or Florida that's fine and dandy, but anywhere with any sort of winter whatsoever won't find RWD practical. There's a reason RWD is so rare these days.

Drifting is one thing, but "balance" and the "fun to drive" factor is a completly different matter. I race SCCA. I race a RWD vehicle. It has a small, underpowered 4 cyl, but it is a blast to drive! It is light, tossable, revvy, and is so completly balanced at speed. There may not be a lot of power on tap; but that doesn't matter! I don't drift. I don't think the wear and tear (as well as chance of breaking a car) is worth it. But I think there is a market for a budget, 4 cyl, RWD vehicle.

Don't get me wrong, I live in New England. I know what winter is like in a RWD car (or truck, minus an LSD, for that matter). It is a small price to pay for a car that is truly that much more fun to race (and drive). Some others have mentioned stability control (VSC), TRAC, and others; these are features that a budget Scion already have!

Scion may not be the first to the first to the RWD market; but from the minds of those who built the JZ chassis Supra would come another hot vehicle. I've heard rumors of Nissan bringing back the 260/280 on a 350Z style chassis. It would be interesting ... everyone thought that the Miata was a chance in the dark before it revived an extinct niche.

Just my thoughts; share yours ...

I think RWD would be pretty cool to have, but it would drive up the cost of manufacturing.

Drive up production costs? Not necessarily. In fact, in certain situations fwd has caused extra cost to build. When the PT cruiser was first rolling off the line, the engine took 4 hours to install; evidently installing the engine was an afterthought. It took awhile for Chrysler to design a process to install the engine w/o having to take it apart first.

Rwd would effect fuel mileage and decrease hp seen at the wheels compared to a fwd layout. But isn't it worth it? Engines have gotten so much more efficient ... maybe it is time to bring back SOME rwd vehicles in some niche markets ...

Its true, RWD costs more to product.
Manufactures switched to FWD becuase its less expensive.
You might think: "So why old RWD cars are less expensive(or same price) than todays FWD cars?"
When technology like ABS and other electronic stuff showed up they had in away or other to make the car less expensive so people can afford it.

I am sure soon or later one of the car manufacturers will come up with a nice looking RWD car but not luxury of course so people can afford it. But there is an small obstacle which is FWD cars are safer than RWD cars. This problem would probably solved by electronic things like TCS and VSC, and it will cost a little bit more.

I think that even a RWD car came up, people will still complain about different things, like luxury or weak engines.

Its just my opinion. :nails:

RWD requires more raw materials=higher production costs.

Raw materials ... ok, so RWD might take more metal to produce. There would be higher drivetrain losses, so some might complain that a 140hp engine is anemic. But these RWD vehicles with lower HP are the cars that are have a resurgance in the market right now. I race a RWD vehicle in a modified class, and it only has a 50hp engine w/ RWD. It is a blast to drive.

Besides, the RWD vehicle would be for a niche market, not the mainstream. They made the xB for a niche market, and it has been a success in those markets. Why not make and sell a RWD tC-like vehicle (even if it ONLY had the wonderfully torquey 2.4L 2AZ)?

Just a talking point; what do you think?

A 50HP engine?! What is it a go-kart?

It has more than 50hp; I was just saying.

RWD 1983 Toyota Starlet with a built 4K-E EFI 1.3L engine. TRD close ratio trans gears from Canada, LSD from NZ, 4.30 rear end from NZ, full roll cage, custom short stroke suspension, AE86 front brakes, racing seats ... fun ride.

PS- May not sound impressive, but it is 3-4 seconds off a BMW 3 series raced by a national champion.

You don't need a super-high-hp engine to have fun!

a RWD tC would simply be tits... if they could keep the price point around the same they would more then likey not only completly capture the drifting scene, but more highway races as well

i used to run a 1990 240sx hatch with tien suspension 18 in rims and strictly bol on power. i would often win many races simply because i would drift and scare the hell out of the other racers... thus they would back off trying to avould a possible wreck... silly people doubting me...

though a change like that at this point in the tc's model life now would be suicide. but if they release on in 3 or so years...you would my tc on the market faster then i could put a new one on order. if the scion line is marketed towards young gen "y" with money to spen on after market mods, how can they ignore this aspect of it.

adn just so you all know, you can drift in a FF car, its just 10 times more dangerous and you have a lot less controll. e brakes are no substitue for a good lock and and gas to take a 90 degree plus turn...

I like RWD but I actually wanted to say that drifting doesn't appeal to me at all. RWD would be great for launches and for handling, and i know it's gone out of style in sport compacts, but i'd really like to see a RWD scion!

In my opinion, a RWD, manual transmission, 2-door xA varient would sell very well. I would absolutely love to get into one.

no need to give it too much power, 140-150hp would be plenty! and try to keep it lightweight and fuel efficient as well. think of it as a lightweight RWD celica only a little smaller and more of a hatchback than a sport/notchback.

I would love to see that!

please excuse the old thread bump, but I miss RWD toyotas, and what better place to start bringing it back than with Scion!

Cashus- Good points. I'm really into the 1970-1986 Toyotas. I think Toyota really has drifted from a light zippy, fun to drive vehicle into more of a zzzzzzzz. Sad. I will never drive anything but a Toyota (or, ah, Scion/Lexus), I just wish we had more options in the sporty segment. Event if it is a 25k to 30k vehicle. I don't think they have any sports-like vehicles at that price point. Build it with the Avalon's 3.5L, in a RWD platform. Nice. It will be interesting to see Scion in ten years. All of the owners will be looking for their second car, they will be making more money, and be looking for the next form of EXPESSCION. :relief:

At this point, anyone from Scion reading this is thinking :blah: ... but a RWD TC-styled vehicle could compete (and smoke) something like a 3-series BMW.

PS- Drifting isn't the reason I want a RWD vehicle. I race Solo II. A rwd vehicle has handling characteristics that make for a more pleasurable driving experience (as long as it isn't snowing).

i attended the FormulaD drift event here in Chicago this past weekend...
it was a great time, especially since it was held right by the lakefront. the sad part of the whole thing was the lack of any 'import' backing. the big Mopar and Ford trucks just didn't look right at a drift event, let alone the absence of any Toyota/Nissan/Honda trucks.

i agree with previous posts -- Scion bring a RWD model.

yes, there are 80s and 90s used japanese models out there -- but some are now approaching 20years of age and beyond. can't be too many left out there.
having a RWD Scion, i believe, would foster a new grassroots motorsports following - be it drifting or autocrossing. of course, this would mean Scion entering the world of drifting competition. so the old slogan "race/drift on sunday, buy on monday" might actually work. plus, it would still encourge customization.

13k - 14k: xA
14k - 15k: xB
15k - 16k: RWD Scion
16k - 17k: tC

there's room in the line up.

raúl...

:tap:

Point taken. I remember going to car shows in the 90's where lowered Civics were parked under super-lifted domestic trucks. Didn't look right. Especially at a drift event. Has anyone ever been to a solo II event.

For more info on what a solo II event is, check www.scca.org OR www.solo2.com for more info on what the heck it is. Good crowd, fun times!

personally i think RWD cars are making a comeback in the market and toyota shouldn't be left out. They have better handling than FWD cars because the wheels that are steering the car are not the wheels that are moving the car. Anyway if toyota won't give us RWD aftermarket companys will. For example aftermarket company's make RWD kits for the ford focus.

I'm thinking more like a RWD sedan. Imagine a Corolla-sized sedan with RWD... a "mini" IS300, if you will. Available two ways: stripped BARE (race version) for cheap and loaded up per Scion's standard package. Imagine if you could buy the super-basic no-radio, no-AC, no power, etc... for like $10,000 and the regular version for like $15,000. :) Sounds fun to me!

The Focus conversion is interesting ... and since the Focus can accept AWD, there is more room designed into the rear of the vehicle to accomodate the rear diff asy. I saw it when it debuted at SEMA in Vegas. A guy built the first RWD Focus & documented his project. Then Ford Racing Development came out with a conceptual kit that you could buy to convert your Focus to a RWD vehicle.

A mini IS300 is a good picture in my mind. I think this conceptual car we are talking about should have some Miata-like handling characteristics (but have a freaking roof).

Want something fun, lightweight, and RWD? why not get a miata?

I would luv to buy a RWD Scion, esp w/ tC styling. The three things that I dont like about my car is drive-by-wire, fat-a$$ weight class, and FWD. A stripped down IS would be OK but I would still prefer a 2-dr hatchback. And while the glass top is cool and ALL THAT DAMN EXTRA STEEL is nice, I would really rather my tC was much lighter w/ RWD. If Scion/Toyota needs to cut down on features to keep price down, that'd be fine by me.

Agreed!

Dag, a bump from the grave!

Yeah, this one was going to get deleted... I thought it worthy of a rehash. :)

If its rear engined and convertible, count me in

Convertible would be nice, but even if it is RWD and a hardtop I am interested.

i heard at school (toyota) that they are bring back the rear wheel drive corolla gts with the 20 valve engine.

man i hope so id also love to see the is300 stripped to the point of a true drifter as said on pg onethat would be sweet...! :bow:

man wouldnt rwd go great tho less tire wear better handiling less wear on brakes just too many good things! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Dear Toyota, please keep your less expensive cars affordable and easy to care for by keeping them FWD.

Uh no
My Xa is light enough as it is add snow and no weight on the rear wheels to speak of and your talking bigger odds of ending up in the ditch or getting stuck
BTW im an old school racer rwd is it but then again if you want to race, or practice semi controlled loss of traction why did you buy a scion?

ive wanted a rwd toyota for a while now, im thinking about getting a cressida or a older gs300, i really want a 4 door RWD, scion should really make one

Dude. Electric motor at the rear axles along with the gas engine front wheel drive. 4WD BABY!

I say a RWD Scion with both Trac & Stability control would sell like hotcakes... I'd buy one if it were in my budget!