For all manual transmission drivers:

While stopped at a light, do you leave the car in neutral
or in 1st gear while pressing the clutch ????

Would leaving in 1st gear ruin the bearing?

leave the car in neutral its not good to "ride the clutch"

I put it into neutral, tacking my foot off the clutch. Saves wear and tear on the parts. That is If I am going to be sitting any length of time.

i was always told to leave it in first so that you wouldnt roll back and hit anyone if you stalled.......but i do both from time to time neutral or 1st gear

leave the car in neutral its not good to "ride the clutch"Yup!... :clap:

Neutral. More to keep my leg from getting tired than concern for ruining the throw out bearing. I think your clutch will need replacement before you'd have to worry about the bearing even if you use the "clutch pushed in" method at lights.

If I'm one of the first couple cars at the light, I'll usually pay more attention so I can pop it in 1st and be ready a few seconds before it turns green. Sometimes it's harder to get into 1st quickly after it's been idling in neutral. Depending on where you are and time of day, you're likely to get hit or honked at if you don't drive as soon as it's green.

i go to neutral and sit out the light
i do get honked at sometimes when i'm not paying enough attention to go as soon as it's green


how about slowing down?
in gear or back to neutral?

yaa i hate being first in line at light u gotta pay attention but yaa leave it in N theres no point to leave it in 1st

leave the car in neutral its not good to "ride the clutch""Riding the clutch" is if you use the clutch to hold the car on a hill or just drive around with clutch partially engaged. Fully pushing in the clutch while stopped at a light isn't "riding", it's just tiring.

sometimes i downshift to a stop but also rev matching so da rpm just doesnt just jump up but alot of the time its neutral for me

Yeah, riding the clutch will just burn up your clutch plates, won't really affect the throwout bearing. That being said, sitting at a stoplight with the clutch pedal in shouldn't have any negative effects on the car. The only downside will be your massively overdeveloped left leg quadricep. I do it at stop signs, if it's going to be any longer than a few seconds, it goes in neutral.

while approaching a stop light/sign i downshift, while at the stop light i leave it in neutral...

i put it in neutral at a light. and then in first when it turns green. :)

Theoretically, putting it in neutral saves wear and tear on the clutch cylinders and the throwout bearing...

Having said that, I'll usually just hold the clutch down, unless I'm at what I know to be a very long light, or dealing with construction flaggers, or enjoying the freeway as parking lot routine... I put it in neutral at the fastfood driveup, and when I have to unbuckle to get my wallet out to wave the enclosed smartcard at the work gate sensor, or at the bank driveup...

I think my xB's clutch is really very light, holding it down being no prob in normal driving...

As has been said, the clutch itself will very likely go before the throwout bearing, and anybody who doesn't insist on a new throwout and pilot bearing with a clutch replacement isn't really thinking... better shops just do it as standard practice...

I am more concerned with blowing the engine trying to get it to up hill after a long stop :rofl:

I am more concerned with blowing the engine trying to get it to up hill after a long stop :rofl:

Get good with the handbrake if yer worried about starting up a hill from a stop

I can see you putting it in N for a long period of waiting, but to put it in N for a light with concern over wear is crazy.

Sure, there could be wear and tear, but the amount of wear and tear you are putting on the system is minute at best. If you constantly are slipping the clutch to inch forward or hold the car on an incline, sure - you'll wear stuff out.

Putting the pedal ALL THE WAY TO THE FLOOR is about as much wear as you shifting the lever into the N position. Minimal...

You guys are worried over nothing with this topic. :rofl:

Neutral....just sit back and relax

I think it's agreed that neutral is better at a stop.

I am in neutral long before the stop because I coast up to the stop to save gas. Leaving it in neutral allows the input shaft to turn keeping it lubricated in the tranny along with bearings and gears.

when I see I am stopping I put the car nuetral and brake to a stop and keep it in nuetral these 2 items will save your clutch...almost 50,000 on mine

You guys are all nuts. You can use the clutch to engine brake a million times and the wear is incrimental at best.

Seriously, if you are approaching a stop light and are throwing the car into neautral well before you completely stop, you're wearing out brake pads before you're preventing wear on your clutch.

I have only owned three vehicles with an automatic and I drive 48k miles a year on average. I use the engine for braking and let's just say, I've never replaced a clutch at all.

Putting it in Neutral at a stop light is a waste...

This whole input shaft and being lubricated is a joke. The oil doesn't fall right off and dry up after holding the clutch in for a few minutes. It stays plenty lubricated to work fine. For the input shaft to wear prematurely would require severe wear and tear. You'll seriously replace the clutch before you'll have issues with the input shaft...

Ugh...

hm ... my practice is ... i actually drop it into neutral when Im decelerating coming up to a stop light and even when I'm exiting the hgihway on a straight away. The only time I decelerate in gear on the highway is coming around a clover or hairpin. If I come up to a green light, shift to 3rd or 2nd according to speed and drive right through.

Now going up hill ... f* that. I'm typically too concerned I might kill the engine to even try. I'll either go around, or slow down and keep rolling in hopes it turns green by the time I get up there lol

edit: and to clarify ... I don't go into neutral to save wear or tear on anything. I'm just lazy :yawn:

i keep it in neutral b/c it doesnt take any effort :P

I completely agree with lizard1. When @ a complete stop, it makes no mechanical difference if your in "N w/clutch out" or "1st w/clutch in".

BTW- There is no need for most of us to "performance drive" but rolling a quarter mile in neutral while approaching a traffic signal is plain amatuerish.

* The gas savings are negligable, (stop-n-go traffic for long periods of time notwithstanding)

* If you suddenly had the need to accelerate, (or the more appropriate term, take back control over your vehicle) which gear are you gonna throw it in? More then half the time you will probably make the wrong choice & over-rev or bog.

* While joe-auto-transmission is applying the brakes through a corner, Mr. manual has downshifted and is actually accelerating through it all the while maintaining MORE control.

People should learn how to drive a manual tranny correctly & this includes downshifting.

Thank you, jDub 68. I'm always downshifting as as I approach a stop, finally going into 1st as I do so...

If anything, it takes less gas than coasting in neutral, since the EFI cuts the fuel flow entirely when your foot is off the accelerator and rpms are above idle... not to mention that you're more in control...

I completely agree with lizard1. When @ a complete stop, it makes no mechanical difference if your in "N w/clutch out" or "1st w/clutch in".

BTW- There is no need for most of us to "performance drive" but rolling a quarter mile in neutral while approaching a traffic signal is plain amatuerish.

* The gas savings are negligable, (stop-n-go traffic for long periods of time notwithstanding)

* If you suddenly had the need to accelerate, (or the more appropriate term, take back control over your vehicle) which gear are you gonna throw it in? More then half the time you will probably make the wrong choice & over-rev or bog.

* While joe-auto-transmission is applying the brakes through a corner, Mr. manual has downshifted and is actually accelerating through it all the while maintaining MORE control.

People should learn how to drive a manual tranny correctly & this includes downshifting.

YES!!! Finally! A person who mut have more than 5 years driving experience!! THANK YOU! I was getting worried that there weren't any people who really know how to drive a stick...

hm ... my practice is ... i actually drop it into neutral when Im decelerating coming up to a stop light and even when I'm exiting the hgihway on a straight away. The only time I decelerate in gear on the highway is coming around a clover or hairpin. If I come up to a green light, shift to 3rd or 2nd according to speed and drive right through.

Now going up hill ... f* that. I'm typically too concerned I might kill the engine to even try. I'll either go around, or slow down and keep rolling in hopes it turns green by the time I get up there lol

edit: and to clarify ... I don't go into neutral to save wear or tear on anything. I'm just lazy :yawn:

Dude, you don't know how to drive a stick properly. Going into Neutral at an exit ramp and coasting to a stop is boarderline dangerous.

You don't understand what I am saying about using the engine as a brake, either. Down shifting for inclines, corners, stops, etc. are what you NEED to be doing when driving a stick.

From the sounds of many on here, you all should have bought autos. Especially the whole "I'm too lazy" crap.

Here's a good question - when you guys are coming off an interstate and doing 70-75mph and come up to a clover leaf, what do you do? Do you down shift? Do you just apply brakes early and get down to a slow speed for the entrance and drop it into 3rd gear and basically coast around the clover? Do you approach the clover at speed, down shift a couple of gears and use the clutch to slow you down with little use of brakes and continue through the clover?

I'd be interested in the responses... I think I'd want to NOT be behind most of you coming from a 70 mph freeway onto a clover leaf, but we'll see...

I completely agree with lizard1. When @ a complete stop, it makes no mechanical difference if your in "N w/clutch out" or "1st w/clutch in".

BTW- There is no need for most of us to "performance drive" but rolling a quarter mile in neutral while approaching a traffic signal is plain amatuerish.

* The gas savings are negligable, (stop-n-go traffic for long periods of time notwithstanding)

* If you suddenly had the need to accelerate, (or the more appropriate term, take back control over your vehicle) which gear are you gonna throw it in? More then half the time you will probably make the wrong choice & over-rev or bog.

* While joe-auto-transmission is applying the brakes through a corner, Mr. manual has downshifted and is actually accelerating through it all the while maintaining MORE control.

People should learn how to drive a manual tranny correctly & this includes downshifting.

YES!!! Finally! A person who mut have more than 5 years driving experience!! THANK YOU! I was getting worried that there weren't any people who really know how to drive a stick...


Got my learners permit in'86. I was driving an early 70's VW bug at the time. Those where the days, Feet on all three pedals simultaniously to keep from stalling, bump starting in reverse by yourself, starting it in gear while parked in the garage, thus destroying my parents washer & dryer. :P

Yeah, I'd consider myself experienced.

You guys are all nuts. You can use the clutch to engine brake a million times and the wear is incrimental at best.

Seriously, if you are approaching a stop light and are throwing the car into neautral well before you completely stop, you're wearing out brake pads before you're preventing wear on your clutch.

I have only owned three vehicles with an automatic and I drive 48k miles a year on average. I use the engine for braking and let's just say, I've never replaced a clutch at all.

Putting it in Neutral at a stop light is a waste...

This whole input shaft and being lubricated is a joke. The oil doesn't fall right off and dry up after holding the clutch in for a few minutes. It stays plenty lubricated to work fine. For the input shaft to wear prematurely would require severe wear and tear. You'll seriously replace the clutch before you'll have issues with the input shaft...

Ugh...

I was just pointing out a fine point of what is happening in the tranny not that it will reduce wear however the big factor in coasting is to save gas because if you had a ScanGauge like I have you would see that the engine uses 0.1gph at low idle and 0.3-0.4gph while decelerating at higher RPMs even with your foot off the gas! Also my last car had the brakes rust up from LACK of use because I down shifted and it did cause more wear on the clutch - 90k and no more adjustment left - and more oil consumption in the engine. I do like the idea of a little engine braking but I save that for 5th gear which is good down to 20mph if I have a enough speed and not enough room or a hill long and steep enough I would use a lower gear.

So how do you think I get 40 to 50 mpg in my xB?

BTW- There is no need for most of us to "performance drive" but rolling a quarter mile in neutral while approaching a traffic signal is plain amatuerish.

* The gas savings are negligable, (stop-n-go traffic for long periods of time notwithstanding)

Actually it does save considerable gas and I can coast for over a mile on some of the roads I travel without going below the speed limit so burning 0.1gph vs 0.5gph gets me 5x the miles per gallon during those coasting stretches.

I always put it in neutral



oh, and I drive waaay to fast to even think I'm getting some kind of fuel enconomy outta my box.....

I completely agree with lizard1. When @ a complete stop, it makes no mechanical difference if your in "N w/clutch out" or "1st w/clutch in".

BTW- There is no need for most of us to "performance drive" but rolling a quarter mile in neutral while approaching a traffic signal is plain amatuerish.

* The gas savings are negligable, (stop-n-go traffic for long periods of time notwithstanding)

* If you suddenly had the need to accelerate, (or the more appropriate term, take back control over your vehicle) which gear are you gonna throw it in? More then half the time you will probably make the wrong choice & over-rev or bog.

* While joe-auto-transmission is applying the brakes through a corner, Mr. manual has downshifted and is actually accelerating through it all the while maintaining MORE control.

People should learn how to drive a manual tranny correctly & this includes downshifting.

YES!!! Finally! A person who mut have more than 5 years driving experience!! THANK YOU! I was getting worried that there weren't any people who really know how to drive a stick...


Got my learners permit in'86. I was driving an early 70's VW bug at the time. Those where the days, Feet on all three pedals simultaniously to keep from stalling, bump starting in reverse by yourself, starting it in gear while parked in the garage, thus destroying my parents washer & dryer. :P

Yeah, I'd consider myself experienced.
:yawn: :yawn: :yawn:
rookies still....

Geez I woulld gladly trade cheap break dollars for expensive engine and clutch wear dollars :roll:
when costing to a stup in nutral you can always double clutch and go into the proper gear but why would sit at light at a light with your foot on the clutch??? :eyebrow:

do also you ride your brake in case you may have to stop

now going down a steep inlcine and can see downshifting and using your engine to brake ..like truckers do but this would be on a rare occasion

I always put it in neutral while sitting at a light



oh, and I drive waaay to fast to even think I'm getting some kind of fuel enconomy outta my box.....

jDub_68, You too! I've had about 10 VW's... bugs and busses. If you didn't know (or learn fast) how to drive stick, you were screwed! Four wheel drum brakes taught me the importance of downshifting.... 48hsp in a van taught me how to shift on a hill!

I doubt sitting at a light with the clutch in will harm anything. It just gives you a tired leg, and makes you more anxious to get going. My Xb's clutch is very light compared to trucks, and performance cars I've owned. I still sit in Nuetral, though.

Here's a good question - when you guys are coming off an interstate and doing 70-75mph and come up to a clover leaf, what do you do? Do you down shift? Do you just apply brakes early and get down to a slow speed for the entrance and drop it into 3rd gear and basically coast around the clover? Do you approach the clover at speed, down shift a couple of gears and use the clutch to slow you down with little use of brakes and continue through the clover?

I'd be interested in the responses... I think I'd want to NOT be behind most of you coming from a 70 mph freeway onto a clover leaf, but we'll see...

We don't have highway speeds that high around here so I wouldn't be entering an exit ramp at that speed plus if you ever have the fortune to run into a car stopped in the ramp or an oil slick or patch of sand you will learn real quick how fast your car doesn't stop. But if I want to hot rod around I drop it down 2 gears and I have the speedo marked off for the max rpm in each gear too.

I completely agree with lizard1. When @ a complete stop, it makes no mechanical difference if your in "N w/clutch out" or "1st w/clutch in".

BTW- There is no need for most of us to "performance drive" but rolling a quarter mile in neutral while approaching a traffic signal is plain amatuerish.

* The gas savings are negligable, (stop-n-go traffic for long periods of time notwithstanding)

* If you suddenly had the need to accelerate, (or the more appropriate term, take back control over your vehicle) which gear are you gonna throw it in? More then half the time you will probably make the wrong choice & over-rev or bog.

* While joe-auto-transmission is applying the brakes through a corner, Mr. manual has downshifted and is actually accelerating through it all the while maintaining MORE control.

People should learn how to drive a manual tranny correctly & this includes downshifting.

YES!!! Finally! A person who mut have more than 5 years driving experience!! THANK YOU! I was getting worried that there weren't any people who really know how to drive a stick...


Got my learners permit in'86. I was driving an early 70's VW bug at the time. Those where the days, Feet on all three pedals simultaniously to keep from stalling, bump starting in reverse by yourself, starting it in gear while parked in the garage, thus destroying my parents washer & dryer. :P

Yeah, I'd consider myself experienced.
:yawn: :yawn: :yawn:
rookies still....

Geez I woulld gladly trade cheap break dollars for expensive engine and clutch wear dollars :roll:
when costing to a stup in nutral you can always double clutch and go into the proper gear but why would sit at light at a light with your foot on the clutch??? :eyebrow:

do also you ride your brake in case you may have to stop

now going down a steep inlcine and can see downshifting and using your engine to brake ..like truckers do but this would be on a rare occasion

You just don't get it, do you?

Here's a good question - when you guys are coming off an interstate and doing 70-75mph and come up to a clover leaf, what do you do? Do you down shift? Do you just apply brakes early and get down to a slow speed for the entrance and drop it into 3rd gear and basically coast around the clover? Do you approach the clover at speed, down shift a couple of gears and use the clutch to slow you down with little use of brakes and continue through the clover?

I'd be interested in the responses... I think I'd want to NOT be behind most of you coming from a 70 mph freeway onto a clover leaf, but we'll see...

We don't have highway speeds that high around here so I wouldn't be entering an exit ramp at that speed plus if you ever have the fortune to run into a car stopped in the ramp or an oil slick or patch of sand you will learn real quick how fast your car doesn't stop. But if I want to hot rod around I drop it down 2 gears and I have the speedo marked off for the max rpm in each gear too.

You guys don't have any interstates? You're the type of guy I always come up on that is going 35 mph off a 70 mph freeway who is afriad they're going to get flicked clean off the freeway...

Most of the highways in RI are 55 mph - it's a small state and in Newport the maximum speed is the 30mph on ramp to the bridge - the rest of the city is 25mph. The highest speed on the island is 45mph and that is 10 miles from here. We have highways over grown with trees, wet leaves and construction workers so you can't go flying into blind turns safely.

Most of the highways in RI are 55 mph - it's a small state and in Newport the maximum speed is the 30mph on ramp to the bridge - the rest of the city is 25mph. The highest speed on the island is 45mph and that is 10 miles from here. We have highways over grown with trees, wet leaves and construction workers so you can't go flying into blind turns safely.

So, every cloverleaf is a blind curve? Ever look through a curve or corner - they aren't blind...

Those 30 mph signs are cautionary "suggested" speeds. It's kinda like any other state (RI has an Interstate, as well...) with an Interstate. The clover suggested speed is 25 mph. However, it is when you decide to shut it down that causes issue.

If you see the sign, believe that you only need to go 25 mph and decide to pile on the braking (While in Neautral apparently) is what is a safety issue.

If the ramp is 25 mph, on a dry day at decent temps, you can easily go down to 55 or 45 and gradually slow while downshifting to help with a semi rapid decrease in speed. Merge safely and teh flow of traffic is not hindered.

What am i doing arguing over basic driving skills? I'm outta here!

Like I said around here we have trees and high shrubs on the exit ramps - there are no clover leafs - we have TINY highways here. As far as exit ramp speeds go at the end of 24 into west main road the speed drops to 40 1/4 mile before the end of the highway and the ramp is 30 posted and I have been know to take it at twice that speed but both sides are lined with jersey barriers and you can't see more than 100 feet ahead as it is an S ramp with about half a breakdown lane on the right plus it is elevated. Do you know the stopping distance of an xB or tC at 60mph in a turn? Ever hear of the term "overdriving the turn"? Do you ride motorcycles in your spare time? Plus as a fuel conserving practice I have already slowed for the ramp in an effort to use the highway speed to coast to the ramp. I also do not impede traffic but really get ____ed when some jerk blows by me before the ramp to cut in at the last second and then proceed to go really slow in the exit ramp in front of me. I let my driving record of 37 years without ever hitting anyone or anything speek for my abilities. Oh yeah and I have had the left front wheel of my xB off the ground in a rotary at 30mph.

Do you know the stopping distance of an xB or tC at 60mph in a turn? .

Between your XB and mine? I'd crush you apparently on braking ability. Using the clutch to help aid in slowing the car down vs. brakes alone is night and day. You apparently do not practice this common technique and so, your experience to do so is limited.

Ever hear of the term "overdriving the turn"? .

Yes, we call it overcooking the corner or turn. These cars also tend to understeer. What's your point? If you are experienced and can understand your machine, you can drive around these issues. I have an F350 dually that I have on several occasions out cornered sports cars. Driver ability can make anything do stuff that isn't considered "ordinary" or "typical" for that said machine... Knowing the limitations of your vehicle is something everyone should practice. Otherwise, in certain situations, you can get way over your head and get into an accident because you didn't know what the vehicle could have or should have done...

Do you ride motorcycles in your spare time? .

Yes, and have over 13 years experience racing them. Cornering is something I am VERY aware of.... Again, don't seem to see what you are trying to convey. Cornering motorcycles is nothing like doing it in a car. Gyroscopic rules apply differently between bikes and cars. The principle is very similar in throttle and braking, but overall, not similar at all. Cornering in a car is much more easy due to the fact you have four tires to assist. The physics are different, but the rules are similar...

Plus as a fuel conserving practice I have already slowed for the ramp in an effort to use the highway speed to coast to the ramp. I also do not impede traffic but really get ____ed when some jerk blows by me before the ramp to cut in at the last second and then proceed to go really slow in the exit ramp in front of me. I let my driving record of 37 years without ever hitting anyone or anything speek for my abilities. Oh yeah and I have had the left front wheel of my xB off the ground in a rotary at 30mph.

If you are "coasting" from highway speed to the exit ramp and a guy blows by you, you certainly are not approaching in such a manner to be held up. Now, if a guy blows by you and shuts it down and wussy foots it around the curve, he's not a very good driver and not someone who understands what I am trying to point out here.

I've only driven for 20 years to your 37, but records don't mean anything when it comes to one's ability. My grandmother outdoes your 37 years by a long shot and she's never had an accident. She must be a WAY better driver according to your philosophy. Experience doesn't mean much - especially if you've done things wrong all those years or haven't garnished lessons along the way.

I drive 48k miles a year AT MINIMUM which includes driving a truck and trailer to and from race events. In three years, considering you seemingly do not travel much outside your area, I suspect that I probably have more miles under my belt than your last 12. Nothing disrespectful, but if you are coasting in neautral just to save 10 miles in a tank full, you don't really understand proper driving techniques...

If you coast from 55 down to 35 and put it into a gear at that speed, it is trying to mesh at a very high rate. If you simply grab the gear you need to be in at the lowered speed and have the clutch depressed the whole time, you are actually wearing things much more than doing a downshift or two...

Look, it isn't a ____ing contest here, but simply a deal where certain people are doing things in their cars for either no apparent reason or for the wrong idea. Driving safely is very important and if you are coasting to a stop or coasting to an exit ramp, you are not being safe. You need to drive defensively and be in control 100%. If you needed to be in a gear quickly to accelerate of down shift to assist is a rapid stop, you'd be in trouble. It isn't a matter of racing around. Downshifting and using the engine to help slow a car down is a practice everyone should be doing. Otherwise, you should have bought an automatic....

FYI I also ride motorcycles but the typical car xB whatever will stop faster then the rpm of the engine will drop if the engine is used for braking meaning you don't get any if in fact negative braking with the engine when stopping with the brakes hard. Plus you next get into the ABS kicking in as well. The braking distance question was not retorical, I was asking what IS the braking distance from 60mph just to show you that if it is more than 100 feet and you can only see 100 feet in front of you on a turn then you can in no way aside from going off the road stop in time. Swerving down shifting whatever will not stop in less distance as you are at the limits of the traction of the tire on the road. Aside from that Yes I do think you need to know exactly what your vehicle is capable of for those times when evasive action is needed. And I save about 100 mile per tank by the way I drive and only hold up traffic when people want to go more than 5 mph over the speed limit. Around here you get fined $15 per mile an hour over the limit PLUS insurance increased in the hundreds of dollars per year. The last time I was stopped I was clocked doing 50 in a 35 while on cruise control doing 40 so I don't want to have to go through that coart hassle again.
60 - 0 (ft): 123.72 . . . oops you hit the object in the road!

If you ride a motorcycle, you have to understand the importance of being able to use the engine to help decelerate. We use the engine to create a slide by use of downshifting to an exiting gear and feathering the clutch all the while trailing the front brake to control the slide on the back.

See, if you use the engine to ASSIST in braking. I'm not talking about if you are driving straight and slam the brakes. Sure, the brakes alone and no downshifting is the quickest way. However, when in the real world do you do that? Do you rush the off ramp and cram the brakes to get down to speed? No. To do that well and quickly to avoid too much braking and premature slowing, using the tranny to asist is a great way to prevent that and also keep the transaction between speeds smooth and consistant.

By the way, what is your total miles on a tank of gas? I'm getting no less than 31 mpg and I apparently "race" around all over. I cannot see you getting 100 more miles a tank than I am. That would mean you are getting like 41 mpg. The BS meter is pegged if that is the case...

Yeah on a bike there is no point in holding the clutch in as the tranny will not allow you to get to neutral at high speeds anyway and sharp temp changes on an air cooled engine is not good for it so yeah I keep it in gear in that case. When I want to slow down I back off on the gas in gear but most of the time if I have to slow down and can I coast if the road allows. AS far as my highest distance per tank 463, 475, 386(not empty), 538 (12 gallons) miles average in the low 40's with some trips higher, over the course of 2-3 weeks per tank I do a lot of 2 mile trips that kill it and drag the average down. The most recent entries are in another thread.
http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=119078&start=25

Yeah on a bike there is no point in holding the clutch in as the tranny will not allow you to get to neutral at high speeds anyway and sharp temp changes on an air cooled engine is not good for it so yeah I keep it in gear in that case. When I want to slow down I back off on the gas in gear but most of the time if I have to slow down and can I coast if the road allows. AS far as my highest distance per tank 463, 475, 386(not empty), 538 (12 gallons) miles average in the low 40's with some trips higher, over the course of 2-3 weeks per tank I do a lot of 2 mile trips that kill it and drag the average down. The most recent entries are in another thread.
http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=119078&start=25

I have to agree with the others on there and say i just don't believ you on simply just adding air pressure and coasting all the time. Plus, if you are doing 40-45mph, you are in town driving and it doesn't add up.

The first guy's recording is very similar to what I bet a majority of people do in their XBs.

I call BS....

Your whole coasting as far as you can is simply poor driving practices. I only hope you never have to make evasive actions.

As far as getting to neautral on a motorcycle, we've come into the pits pretty hot and clicked in neutral to get ready for pit work to be done.

If you are riding air cooled bikes, you and I aren't on the same page.

Back to the car MPG. I really can't believe you're the only person on earth getting near 50 mpg. Might want to tell Guiness about your XB... :loser:

Actually I get 50-55 on my 12 mile 35 minute loop around Ocean Drive starting with a cold engine. Tonight with a couple of red lights and a few people stopping to view mansions I got 51.0mpg. A lot has to do with breaking in the engine without a lot of heavy throttle but still reving it and changing to Synlube after the 3700 mile break in. The engine is very frugal with gas if you back off on the throttle to allow the intake valve timing to adjust and then just give it a enough to keep it going at speed. If you accelerate hard and keep on the gas the mileage will stay in the low 30's - it's weird and I have seen it on my engine until I back off the gas a few times and it comes back up.
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/GasGraph.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=GasGraph.jpg)


I have a couple of Moto Morini bikes 1978 500 and 1986 K2 and a 78R100S that I had the tranny and rear end teflon impregnated - dropped the carb needles a notch and I can get 60mpg with that if I take it easy and 50 if I push it a little, the previous owner used to get low 30's. Getting into neutral at speed will really spin up the clutch plates as you go through the lower gears but it really depends on 2nd gear ratio and redline, my BMW was good for 60mph in 2nd. BTW with the teflon treatment doing a 5th gear roll on at 3000rpm the tach climbs steady right up to redline and wants to keep going.

I have a couple of Moto Morini bikes 1978 500 and 1986 K2 and a 78R100S that I had the tranny and rear end teflon impregnated - dropped the carb needles a notch and I can get 60mpg with that if I take it easy and 50 if I push it a little, the previous owner used to get low 30's. Getting into neutral at speed will really spin up the clutch plates as you go through the lower gears but it really depends on 2nd gear ratio and redline, my BMW was good for 60mph in 2nd. BTW with the teflon treatment doing a 5th gear roll on at 3000rpm the tach climbs steady right up to redline and wants to keep going.

I really don't believe your gas mpg. It doesn't make that much difference on how you break them in. Breaking them in is more about the rings and such and not how the motor takes in fuel.

I buy using better fuel, synthetic oils, letting the car breath more, spark plugs to a degree, etc., but all the gas saving ways and you can't be the only guy in the world getting 16 more mog than the rest of the world. If you are driving in town like you do, on and off throttle (Which is unavoidable - even if you coast) is harder on mpg than consistant throttle input. You have to be driving like a granny to get 36 mpg let alone 50.

The other reason I don't believe your fuel averages is the motorcycle deal. By dropping the needle one notch, you are doing barely anything for fuel economy. Certainly, dropping the needle one clip position isn't going to garnish 20-30 more mpg. You're out of your mind. Are you the type of person who has a guage that is either off on the settings or looks at the thing every second and sure, the mpg is going to be at 50 mpg at the outset, but in the end, where is it?

I really can't figure you out and am writting it off as you are either confused or lying for attention.

Either way, do you even know what the needle in a carb is used for? Tell me what effect moving the needle down a clip does. Your answer will be based on Google possibly, but we'll see if you understand carbs... It will tell a lot about your understanding of gas and motors...

neutral at a ligt with the parking brake up...

slowing down, neutral and using the brake pedal.. no need to enging brake...

Yeah the main slide needle controls the fuel mixture once you are off the idle jet needle and dropping it down a notch leans the mixture which is usually set for a rich mixture for performance. The BIG difference in the mileage was from the teflon treatment of the gears because it reduces friction which used to heat up the rear end enough to warm your hands on but now stays much cooler and the rear wheel also spins around a couple of turns with a spin by hand when it would normally only rotate 3/4 turn. Another indication of reduced friction was the top end in top gear being reached more easily.
As for the xB polishing the bores has an effect but also the drive train has to break in. The major difference is the Synlube lubricants that I am using however - if you look at the graph I posted, that is the actual gas up at the pump mileage that I am getting for the entire life of the xB since I baught it new with a full tank. If you don't think it can be done you should check out gassavers.org and see what these guys are doing - one has a old Saturn geting 70mpg. I had an 80Rabbit and it would get 27mpg freezing cold winter and hot summer no change - then I tweeked the aircone shape in the CIS and got the mpg up to 37 . . . NO COASTING.

ok this is off topic but kinda is on topic. wehn im rooling ot a light i put it in neutral when the light changes im at around 800rpm's so i dubble clutch it up to 3 grand and get it into second.... ive been worrying if thats bad for the syncro or not. but when i dont dubble clutch it even when it was new gettin it into second gear was a bitdch rolling at 25-30 mph at an idle

When you shift from first to second wait in neutral for a second as the engine slows down to about 3000 or a little higher which is about 30mph in second then push it into second gear. You don't have to let the clutch out because there is a little drag already but you should wait in neutral not in First for the clutch disk to slow down with the engine before going into second - if you leave it in first it keeps spinning at near red line.

ok i tink you totally misunderstood what i said. what i ment is when im comin up on a bunch of traffic and i dont know what the speed they are going is i go into neutral from like 3 or 4th. coast up on them, when i arive at their speed i dubble clutch into the gear i need. dose that hurt anything?

I cant believe this thread:

You put it in neutral at a light, PERIOD!!

How much time can it possibly take to put it in 1st and go again?

If ur getting beeped at the light u betta practice ur driving..if u can drive a manual u should be able to get up and go in a split second...no effort..just muscle memory, ur foot knows wheere the catch point is bring it up and gas done...

and never coast to a light! keep ur brakes downshift! when arriving at a light have it in 2nd, the car stops faster and better(which is safer) when in gear! never ride out of gear omg! come on guys

i like how you dident ansure my question thanks dude :clap:

ok i tink you totally misunderstood what i said. what i ment is when im comin up on a bunch of traffic and i dont know what the speed they are going is i go into neutral from like 3 or 4th. coast up on them, when i arive at their speed i dubble clutch into the gear i need. dose that hurt anything?

Ok, beginning driver's ed 101... If you are approaching a group of cars and you don't know their speed, you are either traveling WAY too fast OR, you need to practice and enhance your depth perception...

If you are traveling up on a group of moving cars (at speeds that warrant 30-40 mph), you better be downshifting... You can approach in neutral all you want, but you're being lazy and unsafe.

For an answer to your question, the gears are syncroed to a degree, but if you are in 5th and are at 30-40 mph and trying to get into 3rd, you're fine. You are a little dumb for traveling in neutral for any distance at that speed, but again, it seems there are quite a few people on here that either don't know how to downshift or they should have bought autos because they don't know the principles behind manual trannies...

I cant believe this thread:

You put it in neutral at a light, PERIOD!!

How much time can it possibly take to put it in 1st and go again?

If ur getting beeped at the light u betta practice ur driving..if u can drive a manual u should be able to get up and go in a split second...no effort..just muscle memory, ur foot knows wheere the catch point is bring it up and gas done...

and never coast to a light! keep ur brakes downshift! when arriving at a light have it in 2nd, the car stops faster and better(which is safer) when in gear! never ride out of gear omg! come on guys

Yeah what he said, but i woulda said it a little nicer, and i don't downshift, i just ride out the gear until i either stop or then downshift to go again (and of course there are exceptions when i will downshift). And to george, no it wont hurt anything, thats how i do it sometimes too,just make sure to match rpms or it will wear your clutch a little faster, but like tC 2ner said its not safe to drive in neutral anyway

IMO you should stay in the appropriate gear as much as possible when the car is moving, and you should stay in neutral, with the clutch out, as much as possible while the car is stopped. It's safer and gives you more control. So learn how go from neutral to moving quickly, ANTICIPATE THINGS DON'T REACT, and learn how to rev-match and heel-toe downshift.

The exception to the rule is when you know you're gonna be stopped for sure. In this situation you can just leave it whatever gear your in, start braking, and shift into neutral at around 1000 RPM.

what is heel-toe downshifting?

Must be the same as heel-toe braking. Ball of your foot is on the brake while your heel is tapping the gas pedal. Very good if you're trying to decelerate and accelerate quickly out of a corner, but overkill and probobly unsafe if you're just coming to a stop.


Unless that's not what you're talking about.

i like how you dident ansure my question thanks dude :clap:

Yeah a good guess is about all you can do while double clutching OR start by holding the clutch in and run it down through the gears from 5th. Each time you pop it into the next lower gear you spin up the clutch disk faster without hitting the final gear (lowest) with the big rpm difference.

Poor second gear gets it both ways and that syncro gets worn out the most because it is both slowing down the input shaft when going from 1st to 2nd and speeding up the input shaft when down shifting from 3rd 4th 5th into 2nd.

BTW downshifting through all the gears without using the brakes can get you rear ended if the guy behind you doesn't wake up when your brake lights DON'T come on.

Heel-toe is basically downshifting while braking, but at the same matching your revs with the throttle pedal. The videos below show you two popular ways in which you can do it. I personally do it like Senna in video #1.

#1 ->http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8561369878817702526&q=Ayrton+Senna

#2 ->http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8237690307702536941&pr=goog-sl

When you use heel-toe vs. rev-match downshifting is up to your own discretion. I do it when getting off the hwy, making a 90 degree turn off a high speed street, or when I reach slow moving traffic. I actually find it easier to heel-toe this than brake, shift to neutral, turn or whatever, and shift back into gear again. Also, when doing it on the street I always start the rev-match of heel-toeing almost at the same time as I start braking.

Thats effin sweet to see, i've needed to do that before too and have heard about it but couldn't really picture how it was done. Now seeing it, it looks easy. There is an off ramp near my house that goes from 60mph to a U-turn in about 45 feet. so its either ride out neutral around the turn with the brakes, or ride out the 5th gear til you go around and have to shift all the way to 2nd... harder to rev match and very shaky

Thanks for those vids

I wonder if the stability control would kick in on a tight sliding turn slowing you down with abs for you and all you would need to be doing is downshift and go when you straighten out.

Its not that i get out of control or anything, its just that i go from fifth at about 1K to 2nd at about 3K, so its hard to rev match without slippin the clutch or jerking the car, i was hoping for a more gradual downshift in this situation, which hopefully this type of shifting will satisfy. But thank you for your input

if you keep your clutch in while at stoplights you are SEVERLY shortening the service life of your throwout bearing.

5th is about 2 to 1 on the speed to rpm
2nd is about 1 to 1 speed to rpm

Check speed and them tach to match it properly - and this is where the heel toe right foot is used unless you drop to 3rd as you slow down then get into 2nd with the engine reving a little already from being in 3rd. Down shifting from 3rd to 2nd while braking should be pretty easy on the syncros because the clutch and engine should be spinning fast enough for the gear you are getting into since you are slowing down. Once you get your speed to what you want in the ramp you should have time to get into second.

Not only may you cause damage to your throw out bearing, but I don't know about all of you....but my leg gets tired holding the clutch down. So why do it when you don't have to?

This heel toe thing is actually kinda hard on my car, because the gas pedal is so far back, you almost have to fully engage the brake to be able to hit it. I guess more practice is needed. Thanks also for the tips Jan06xB

Yeah, all the fancy shifting helps, but just drive it like it's your baby and all will be fine. My mom had an '88 Dodge Omni for 13 years, it then became mine for 2 years, and had the original clutch. 113K miles and it was driven in Italy, where it was purchased from a military base (I was born and raised there) and then shipped over here for another 11 years. The car was a beast and even when I had it, the clutch didn't slip. Felt like new. My mom always downshifted and drove it very good.

Just baby your car and it'll last.

You're not supposed to be thinking of how to drive your car when you drive it. Just like you're not supposed to be thinking about how to speak, when you speak. It should come easily. Just drive normal like you have been.

You're not supposed to be thinking of how to drive your car when you drive it. Just like you're not supposed to be thinking about how to speak, when you speak. It should come easily. Just drive normal like you have been.

True but somethings take practice to better yourself. For instance you don't just get in a car at 16 and drive around like you've been driving for 30 years, you need practice, same as speaking. When you came from Italy i'm sure you had to learn english, and that takes thinking. Same with the different styles of driving. Perhaps this way will become second nature sopmeday and i won't have to think about it, and maybe i'll like it more, or maybe i'll hate it and keep on doin what im doin. I guess im kinda open minded about stuff, and like to try new stuff, oh well.

Thats cool you were born and raised in italy. i have a couple friends like that and my old boss was the same, she moved here at 18 yrs old, 30 years ago.

I was a military brat so I grew up speaking both languages. :P

But yeah, starting off, there will always be thinking, but after driving for years, you shouldn't have to think while you drive about how you are driving. Learning new techniques is neat, but I really don't find it that necessary to learn something that will increase the clutch life by maybe 5K miles. By that time, I hope you would have already replaced it. IMO, I would just drive like I always have been. I play with double clutching sometimes but it gets annoying and bothersome. Heel-toe is ok, but still, more to think about. Capability isn't the issue, it's just reluctancy to learn something that isn't fully necessary. But again, that's just my opinion.

Thats another thing i don't fully understand, people double clutch while racing, doesn't that take a long time to shift, how is it faster, or is it just for unsynchro'd trannys, please clear it up for me.

I still am not sure how double clutching is supposed to improve your race driving......it seems to me that it would slow you down due to the extra.5-1 second it takes to shift into the next gear. It DOES make the shifts much smoother by raising the rpms for the engine speed and gear box speed to align properly, but just seems to take a little longer to shift. I do my quick shifting with only a 3 inch depression of the clutch for extremely fast engagement. I can't wait until I get my clutch and flywheel though. That will definately be something to play with. The stock setup is nice, but even quick shifting I can feel a weak clamp on the clutch. It still allows the RPMs to drop a good bit. It's not slipping due to wear, but just due to weak clamp pressure.

I feel that weak clamp pressure too especially with the lighter flywheel, the rpms drop super fast. But ok now is double clutching just for downshifting, why would you wanna raise rpms while upshifting. AH maybe i should just do some research

So whens the flywheel goin on? That is my favorite upgrade to date. CM or fidanza

I want Fidanza. Higher rpms with upshifting mean that you'll be in a higher power band as the clutch engages. It increases your speed faster, in theory. Just extra time on the clock if you ask me. It's designed to be used for upshifting or downshifting. All it does it match the engine speed to the gear box.

I got the fidanza too... very please

stock clutch?

Yep, very big regret on my part, but the mechanic talked me into staying stock with the clutch saying it will give a smoother ride. Well it did but thats not necessarily what i wanted. I wanted performance, oh well. My one big regret

Yeah, i'm going stage 2 kevlar. about a 70-80% increase in clamping force. I was looking at ACT, but not sure who I want to go with. A friend of mine with a built 300ZX said not ACT b/c they break. Not what I wanted to hear.

And just to show you that it can be done I drove around last Sunday on all my favorate roads 85 miles worth with a few stops along the way and when I got back I averaged 50.7mpg for the entire day in my 2006 xB.

i pop it out of gear and brake to a stop. I gear up when i am ready to go.

yes, the clutch can brake the car very well, but it's easier for me to change brake pads.