Name the company and the sizes of the bar and I will add them to my post. When I do that I will delete the post it came from just to keep it cleaned up in here and easy to read in here.

C-ONE FSB = 28 mm

WhiteLines RSB = 22mm

Hotchkis FSB = 28.575mm
Hotchkis RSB = 12.7mm (addon bar)

Progress RSB = 22mm (addon bar)

Name the company and the sizes of the bar and I will add them to my post. When I do that I will delete the post it came from just to keep it cleaned up in here and easy to read in here.

Front sway bar =C-ONE 28mm
Rear Sway Bar = WhiteLines 22mm

I thought this was a more in depth description of how to install. What is this threads intentions??

I thought this was a more in depth description of how to install. What is this threads intentions?? Actually, you had me fooled to kwicslvr, I thought you had the install procedure down. So this really can't be a sticky than, can it?
:shock:

It was created because of all the different bars available out there. We need to find out all the different sizes so when people are looking for the sizes they can find them all in one thread. Eventually it can be moved to the FAQ section which is were the install should be also.

doesnt hotchkis make one

Hotchkis=28.575 mm fsb
=12.7 mm rsb add on

Since I am new to the Scion scene, I wonder what would be the stock ones measured? Ummm, I mean if both the xA and xB came with stock f/r sway bars?!

Thanks!

can you also add wether they are solid or hollow?

That definately makes a difference and I remember seeing somewhere that some are hollow. It should help to differenciate between the many 22mm rears.

It's my understanding that front anti-sway bars actaully contribute to understeer. They force you to back off on the speed in a turn before you are actually out of lateral grip. It makes the car "safer" for less experienced drivers, which is why most cars come with them, but they don't actually improve handling beyond a certain point.

I learned a lot of what I know from a VW/Audi/Porsche suspension expert up in MA (Dick Shine) and he doesn't include front sway bars in any of the custom suspension systems he built. He usually recommends leaving the stock bar, definitely NOT a thicker front bar. He suggests removing the front bar altogther in some cases for experienced drivers.

Even though he was mainly a VW guy, its relevant here:

The xB is a front engine, front wheel drive compact with Mac Struts in the front and a torsion beam rear suspension.... and so are every single VW Jetta, Golf and New Beetle on the road. ;)

Here's how he explains it:

"Volkswagens have between 65-70% of their weight over their front wheels which causes understeer. Larger front sway bars cause more understeer and unload the inside front wheel during hard cornering resulting in wheelspin. This is a major handicap, especially when autocrossing. Shine Racing suspensions are designed to minimize understeer and increase grip."

I think that the xB has a better weight distribution ratio than that, but, like any FWD, front engine car, the balance of the weight is over the front wheels with the engine, transaxle etc..

My instincts tell me to get the stiffest rear bar I can find and leave the front alone. Has anyone gone that route?

yes.

I've done that in my xA and in my Z. For both, I have the stock front sway bar, and the rear with the stiffest I could find or set to the stiffest stetting.

At the moment, in the xA, I can't get into oversteer unless I trailbrake oversteer. I can't throttle oversteer yet, so I'm thinking I could actually stiffen the rear more. When I would trailbrake oversteer, it needed to be done really really deep into the turn and I'd have to really really try.

Taking out the front sway bar isn't a bad idea! Man, I can't believe I never thought of that. By the next track event I attend in late January, I'm shooting to get springs installed before then. If I still don't have enough oversteer, I may do just that. Take OUT the front sway bar! I hope by then I've figured out how to disable the stability control system.. grrr..

My instincts tell me to get the stiffest rear bar I can find and leave the front alone. Has anyone gone that route?

Actually, what we do in our racing sports cars is to use the rear bar, generally smaller than the front, to "tune" the car's anti roll characteristics.
The VW Golf's are generally set up softer in the front, thats why they often lift the inside rear wheel on hard cornering.
My Sprite (front engine,rear drive) was the opposite: Lifted thae inside front.

Ideally, you want to corner with all four tires in contact with the ground.

We generally dont disconnect the swaybars unless it is raining.

Is there ANY benefit then to swapping out the front sway bar? Unfortunately I ordered hotchkis bars Before researching like a retard
*cancelled hotchkis and went with progress add on bar

I have the Progress rear bar on my xB and the stock bar on the front, It works for me, I have raced before in SCCA, Forget the upgrade on the front bar, If you want to drive your box to it's fullest, Just my 02 tho.

Is there ANY benefit then to swapping out the front sway bar? Unfortunately I ordered hotchkis bars Before researching like a retard

YES. The front sway will eliminate a larger measure of body roll and reduce yaw to a great degree. HOWEVER, this WILL translate to more understeer. If you can compensate for that with improved spring rates and /or larger rear bar, this can be a great aid for track use, but that is a big IF. So far, the options for these cars are limited. For most drivers, on a daily, the reduction in roll is a great feeling, but for someone wanting to take it closer to it's limits, the understeer can be frustrating.

For most drivers, on a daily, the reduction in roll is a great feeling, but for someone wanting to take it closer to it's limits, the understeer can be frustrating.

Well said. Although, if someone is looking for what's fastest, as was said before, only upgrade the rear as opposed to both. The only people who say different are those that never give autox/track results.

I have the Progress rear bar on my xB and the stock bar on the front, It works for me, I have raced before in SCCA, Forget the upgrade on the front bar, If you want to drive your box to it's fullest, Just my 02 tho.

:clap:

How hard are rear sways to install? Are there any clearance issues to worry about? For instance I have aftermarket exhaust (5Zigen) that hangs differently than the stock system.

easy install and no issues with exhaust systems

my strup hung low and this is with the progressive

look through the gallery of my business

http://www.partshippers.com/index.php?main_page=gallery

swaybars are a BandAid for improper spring/tire settings

if your car is set up properly, you need no more than stock sway bars

Okay people, I'm confused. Can someone tell me what the exact problem is w/understeer under hard cornering? I admit I'm not totally familiar w/how this term affects handling, but I'm seeking a better shock/spring setup so I'll be able to better handle the xA in hard corners.

I just got a set of Toyo F4 tires w/17" ADR Sokudo rims. Handling is better, but I want the ultimate, and since I'm pretty new at tuning, I need advice. Best ride quality, but maximized corner handling is what I'm after.

Thanks for any help. I'm totally at a loss here. (My WRX owner buddy gives me advice, but the xA is a totally different animal than that ride).

Okay people, I'm confused. Can someone tell me what the exact problem is w/understeer under hard cornering? I admit I'm not totally familiar w/how this term affects handling, but I'm seeking a better shock/spring setup so I'll be able to better handle the xA in hard corners.

I just got a set of Toyo F4 tires w/17" ADR Sokudo rims. Handling is better, but I want the ultimate, and since I'm pretty new at tuning, I need advice. Best ride quality, but maximized corner handling is what I'm after.

Thanks for any help. I'm totally at a loss here. (My WRX owner buddy gives me advice, but the xA is a totally different animal than that ride).

Understeer occurs when the front tires reach the traction limit before the rear tires, the result is, at the limit, you take the turn wider than you want to because the rear wheels are determining the direction of the car more than they should be--- that's why it's called understeer. Like I said, a certain amount of understeer is engineered in to protect people from getting too close to the limit and losing control. Understeer *forces* you to slow down through a turn so you can maintain the proper arc. It offers no advantage except safety for inexperienced drivers.

I don't know about you, but I want to be able to take a turn as fast as I like, I will back off on my own if the car begins to oversteer.

Hope that helps clear it up. :wink:

swaybars are a BandAid for improper spring/tire settings

if your car is set up properly, you need no more than stock sway bars


I disagree.

It really depends on the car and how the suspension is designed, but nearly any car can benefit from a stiffer rear anti-sway bar. It is easily the best bang for the buck mod you can get (unless you have a turbo car, in which case a chip is the best bang for the buck!)

does c-one make a front sway bar for the xB/bB? You don't have the Cusco Front sway bar up there which is 28mm.

The hotchkis front sway bar is hollow.

Anyone know how thick the stock front sway bar is?

How come everyone on here thinks they know the Xb/Xa suspension better than the people like, Hotchkis,Cusco...etc. These people made a part and have a name to hold up. So i dont see why they would make a bar that made the cars handle worse.


Any thoughts on that?

Because they just might. An ethusiast who knows and understands suspension and OWNS the vehicle in question will understand its needs and peculiarities.

Hotchkis and other companies (not speaking for japanese companies... I can't read japanese) will usually not have that insight. They have to design a wide range of products for a wide range of applications. This usually means that individual applications don't necessarily get the necessary attention. Note that for example, all of hotchkis' products to date, fit both the xB and xA. Both cars definately have different handling characteristics.

The other thing they have against them is that they have to design a product with mass appeal. Companies also have to choose between production costs and individual attention to application. If you were to over specialize towards one application you are only appealing to a limited market. So the more universal a part is.. the better usually.

Even if they were to focus on one application the problem of mass market appeal is still apparent. Especially in terms of suspension. Do they design for the extreme performance enthusiast, who wants rock solid cornering at the expense of all else? or for the people who just want to be able to handle corners slightly better without killing the ride quality? You can't possibly design a new part/mold for every niche for ever application. So you make compromises... and things will not always be optimal.

In defense of Hotchkis, since I singled them out, I believe they designed their sway bars to do exactly what sway bars are supposed to do... to ONLY reduce sway or roll. They also included adjustable settings to try to appeal to both audiences. Judging from the sizes of the bars, I'd say they most likely tried to balance the increase in stiffness evenly along the front and back. Thereby reducing roll, but not effecting the original understeer/oversteer characteristic (other than the amount of understeer generated by the body roll).
Theoretically understeer/oversteer can be tuned in various other ways, whether it be springs, struts/shocks, tire pressure, weight distribution, etc.
The problem with the xB is that stock, it has a lot of understeer, much more I'd wager than the xA. Many people feel that for the xB its unneccesary or silly even to return the massive understeer chracteristic back to the xB by stiffening the front sway (especially since you are in the process of "tuning" the suspension). Most people feel that a stiffer rear sway would help eliminate the body roll while granting the xB a much more neutral handling and that that is a better solution.

Progress RSB = 22mm (addon bar)[/quote]

When i last checked the Progress RSB was 19mm not 22mm

ok so now i want to get a rear sway bar for my xa i aleady have the trd springs, shocks and tie bar!

So where can i find an adjustable rear sway bar?
any links?
peace tjd!

Here is an article written by our engineer talking about hollow vs. solid sway bars.

http://www.hotchkistuning.com/bin/Misc/HollowSwayTech-D.pdf

Well folks, I'm noy looking to race, but I want a stiffer ride. I'm leaning towards the Hotchkis kit (Fr & Rr). Stiffer & lighter.

FWD will always have understeer.

Just my 3 cents short of a nickel. LOL

Great reply Chimmy3. :clap:

So i dont see why they would make a bar that made the cars handle worse.

The car is a system. You have to consider all forces and look at the net result. A part that works wonderfully on someone's setup will be garbage on someone else's. That's why you have this assortment out on the market that doesn't necessarily make ALL cars handle better.

does Cusco offer a rear bar?

the-rear bar-, of the two bars shown, is currently $138 at partshippers.com
http://www.partshippers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=759

http://www.partshippers.com/images/RSX_sway_bars.jpg


Is this what I would want? After reading through this thread I presume I want
only a rear sway bar. And for my needs, it should be a stiff one.

thanks for advices,

r

the-rear bar-, of the two bars shown, is currently $138 at partshippers.com
http://www.partshippers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=759

http://www.partshippers.com/images/RSX_sway_bars.jpg


Is this what I would want? After reading through this thread I presume I want
only a rear sway bar. And for my needs, it should be a stiff one.

thanks for advices,

r

:shock: :ponder: Yes, 22mm thick should be right on the money. I cant fully recall the name of the company. I think it was something like white line, made a 22mm rear bar for the echo that bolted up onto the scions. The few members who got one, said it helped out a lot.

the-rear bar-, of the two bars shown, is currently $138 at partshippers.com
http://www.partshippers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=759

http://www.partshippers.com/images/RSX_sway_bars.jpg


Is this what I would want? After reading through this thread I presume I want
only a rear sway bar. And for my needs, it should be a stiff one.

thanks for advices,

r

yes thats the one.

its 22mm....not 19mm

i believe the Whiteline is 24mm and thats if you can find it...but it might be a bit to thick for a stock front swaybar. The Progress compliments the front stock swaybar perfectly.

Unless your racing the box? there is no need to replace the front and rear swaybar...its overkill and i don't see it being worth the value what so ever.

my 2cents

thanks... now, any more votes before I buy from the sponsor above?

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=68078&highlight=&sid=b533d39f7b4ab683c39815d78f3006bf


or alone here


http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=56990&highlight=

noway you'll regret this swaybar. Your everyday drive will be improved..not just when your hard on it.

good luck

Jeff

If this picture looks familar, Jeff, it's because it's a crop of your car with the progress bar from one of those threads you cited.


I put it here to show off the simplicity of this bar.

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/747/screenshot3130nf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I'd like to use this picture in a coilover thread and yeah, mention the bar again in passing when I do.

The bar, as any other would do, basically, adds to the torsional stiffness of the rear axle crossmember. It appears to be just a simple thing indeed--- making the axle more like a solid beam instead of a tortional semi-spring as it is in stock form.


folk-ses:
From all I read, there is only one "drawback" to making a rear axle as'sy resistant to torsions. What would this be?

??? (work ya bwains and googly fingers)

For a baseline, what are the stock swaybar sizes?

swaybars are a BandAid for improper spring/tire settings

if your car is set up properly, you need no more than stock sway bars
Tell the guys who race in JGTC, the have an adjustable sway bar set up, so they can adjus it on the fly from the cockpit. I guess they dont know how to set up a suspension properly...

partshippers.com = nice stuff, decent prices...i was drooling all over the strup headers lol omg wait till my next hunk of $$$ to spend...i think headers are next

Awesome thread guys! Lots of great info!

After reading everything, I think i'm just about ready to make my purchase, just wanted to get your opinions on everything.

I don't EVER plan on racing my xB. It's an appliance, for lack of a better term. A fun, cool looking appliance that gets waxed every weekend, but you get the point...

I also don't plan on lowering the car, because I do have to drive it through nasty NJ weather.

But I do plan on getting a nice set of 16's or 17's, and then using the steelies with a good set of Blizzaks for the winter.

As for the sway bars, I'm looking to reduce body roll, and improve turn in. Making the steering more neutral would be a nice bonus as well. Right now, I feel like i'm gonna flip the car in hard turns, and the initial turn in feels all sorts of weak and sloppy.

Based on these criteria, I'm really thinking of going with the full Progress kit, both front and rear.

Thoughts??

Thanks!

If you want to improve turn-in, you don't want a stiffer front bar. Skip that and go with the rear. Read through the thread and you'll see that is what the most knowledgeable here are saying consistently. A stiffer front sway bar is pointless in this application IMO.

so i made the mistake of odering a hotchkis sway bar kit. so i will only install the rear. i only use my car as a daily driver and put an H&R race cup suspension on it struts shocks springs lowered 2" front 1.8 rear 17x7 wheels. so my question would a strut tower imrove anything? i would like to be able to hit sharp corners faster and handle on little s turns etc. so should anything be put on the front?? 160 for front and rear new wasnt bad so i dont feel to bad. will ebay the front.

Any review/comments/info on the JDM sway bars??

This has been a very informative discussion..

Do aftermarket sway bars create ground clearance issues on lowered vehicles?

No. your muffler canister is even lower then the rear sway i believe. i have never heard of anyone ever hitting their rear sway bar on anything.

If removing the front sway bar (or leaving the stock one in place) while beefing up the rear sway bar is advantageous to reducing understeer in FWD vehicles does it then follow that adding a front strut tower bar would contribute to understeer?

How hard are rear sways to install?...

Here's tips from my installation of a TRD bar:

1. I raised my rear end 3" using ramps made of two 2x10's on each side:
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/vintagefortytwo/IMG_1243.jpg
I have OEM 15" wheels and could not have done it without the ramps.

2. It is probably not possible for one person to support one end of the heavy sway bar while installing the bolts on the other end. I used long plastic zip ties at each end of the sway bar, looped around the torsion bar, to lift the sway bar up and hold it in position.

3. The TRD bar has a very nice tabs of metal with two nuts welded to them, which you insert into the hollow suspension arms. This greatly helps installing the bolts into the nuts.

4. The TRD instruction say to torque the bolts to 40 lbs. This is a large amount of torque and I don't think it can be approximated with a socket wrench. My clicking torque wrench was too big to fit on the bolts, so I used a beam type, which had to be read visually at an odd angle under the car.

5. The nuts kept taking more torque - they went to 40 lbs a couple of times. I think this was either due to the metal tab of the TRD kit bending (cupping) to conform to the inside of the suspension arm tube, or the bolts stretching. It means that if you only tighten one time, the bolts will not be tight enough.

Just put on my progress rear sway bar on friday.Very easy install.

A little confused here, so whats the overall consensus on the sways?..... What brand turned out to be the best bang/$$?

I come from RWD backgrouund, and i at least preffered to have the stiffest and thickest front and rear sways.

-AleXb.

yeh for sway bars

I posted this in the Progress How-To thread but I thought it might get more opinions here:

So, do these actually attach to the unibody somewhere or is it mainly to stiffen up the trailing beam?

Would there be any benefit to a bar that attached to the unibody in such a way that it still allowed "up and down" motion of the axle but did a better job of preventing "twist"?

Near as I can tell, the advantage to chassis mounted bars is that they can be adjustable, although I don't think that any of the rear bars currently available for the scion xb actually are adjustable.

They also have disadvantages- they're more difficult to install, and the bushings can wear and squeak.

The rear torsion beam on our scions is already a swaybar of sorts, so it's easy to exploit that, stiffen it up, with the progress type bar...

so is progress better or the whiteline?

swaybars are a BandAid for improper spring/tire settings if your car is set up properly, you need no more than stock sway barsTXboxdriver, there is no stock xB rear sway bar. Does that mean I do not need one?

Just installed a Progress RSB. Nice! It does make a difference! Simple, took just 15 minutes. No need to remove the wheels as stated in directions...at least with 17's.

Progress rear bar is 22.22 mm measured with dial calipers and is solid, not tubular

sway bars are the ____, i had it on my previous car and boy did it work to perfection, handling was increased by 50% at least

wtf i cant even say ____, thats balogny

oh i forgot to mention, i got eibach sway bars for my last car. you just cant go wrong with eibach one of the best

:eyebrow:... you know there's a http://www.scionlife.com/forums/templates/scionLife/images/lang_english/icon_edit.gif button right?

please use it.

sorry about that Mod, i didn't know at first. will do next time my apologies

looking forward to getting some rear sway bars as well. hopefully the install is easy as it says.

ayS, its four bolts and 10~15 minutes for the Progress RSB.

2 on each side?

ayS, its four bolts and 10~15 minutes for the Progress RSB.

Yes, 2 per side. Do an eBay search for "xb sway", shows how it attaches.

the easiest and best suspension mod is to add the trd rear sway bar, although im going to look into the hotchkis set for the front and rear. the front you have to remove the k member so thats going to be a lil more complicated. ill get back to you when i actually do this mod

does c-one make a front sway bar for the xB/bB? You don't have the Cusco Front sway bar up there which is 28mm.

The hotchkis front sway bar is hollow.

Anyone know how thick the stock front sway bar is?

Stock swaybars
Front is 0.98" or 24.9mm
Rear is 0.68" or 17.3mm

Stock rear bar? I didn't have a rear bar...!?

Stock rear bar is inside your torsion beam.

which one if the best out of the four sway bars

Depends what you want. They all basically do the same thing except to varying degrees.
Hotchkis = Slightly better than stock
TRD and Progress = much better than stock
Whiteline = brings car close to neutral but you must be very careful and watch for oversteer. Only recommended for alert drivers.

If you are indeed 16 then I'd suggest being safe and going with the Hotchkis, TRD or Progress.

Easiest to install are TRD/Progress. Hotchkis you have to do some major work to install the front bar.
I have the whiteline and am happy with it. I have gotten some slight oversteer when I push it but I am able to catch it and bring it back in line. I have some Hotchkis front and rear that should be coming next week.. That will reduce the overall sway while still keeping it close to neutral...I hope. I haven't found anyone that has tried this yet.

of course myzer this is MY opinion. Please search the archives for others.

i was thinking about progressive

hey guys, since the stock torsion beam is shaped kinda like a v and open, what if you welded a long plate to it to close it up and strengthen it? would this be to much or you think it would work?

I have thought of boxing in the rear torsion beam myself. And you could actually weld a long plate over the entire beam and if it's too stiff you could cut slits at either end and keep cutting till it's at the level you desire.

My only concern would be that if you stiffen up one area then the pressure is greater on the parts that aren't boxed in which can lead to greater metal fatigue because more force will be distributed to those weaker areas. Maybe I'm overly concerned.

I decided to get the sway bar and realize that I can always sell it later on and recoup some of my money.

If money is a concern, be patient and you'll see every now and then someone selling their old bar.

Cusco 28mm
Normal on bB 24mm

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1615/600x240200609260058865sg9.jpg

I would suggest only replacing the rear bar to a larger size. To decrease overall body roll put some stiffer bushings on the bars. Something made from a higher durometer urethane or delrin.

I haven't really took a look under the car yet but in general this would be the thing to do.

Nearly every factory car is made to understeer because it is the safest thing to have the car do when pushed to hard in a turn. Generally speaking if a car is sliding in a turn you will jump off the throttle and regain control.

If the car is set up to over steer or be neutral and you jumped off the throttle or even hit the brakes your car will want to spin.

How do I know? On my old car I strapped the rear to limit the rear suspension downward travel and therefore increase the amount of oversteer to the point that if I would jump off the throttle mid turn, even going slow the car would spin. You have to be very alert to drive that type of setup, but it is great for racing. I could push the car so hard through the turn (neutrally) that all four tires would start to smoke.

My old car was an aspirated Chevy Metro with a large cam, CAI, fully gutted. Wet the car weighed around 1400 Lbs. with a little over 105 HP. For those who don't know this car is made by Suzuki. A very fun ride and I miss it dearly.

with vw/audi .. some of the front sways have to be changed merely because it is in the way of the driveshaft or clutch linkage (i forget which) when lowered more then like 1.5 inches

this was the case when i had h&r coils on my mk4 gti

i dont believe scions have this problem...

also might want to add if the set comes with new bushings/type

i already know i am gonna install rear 'sway bar. what you guys have written has me concerned though. although i've had many cars sideways, the discussion regarding under-over steer is interesting. i had always thought understeer was just a bad quality attributed to big old american cars from the 50's, 60's and 70's. now, your feedback will decide me which bar i will choose. whitelines or the TRD/ progress choice....... are you saying that the car's rear end will break loose sooner with less understeer? it seems to almost want to drift all 4 simultaneously now and all i have are TRD springs and 17" wheels. i wouldn't mind seeing more discussion/ explaination! also from what i have seen (only pics of whitelines), i don't really like the way the whitelines attaches to shock mount using that 90 degree plate. i would prefer direct attachment to the shock bolt. comments please! thanks all!

^^^ understeer is basically when your car keeps going in a straight line (original direction of when you entered the turn). You would be sliding sideways pretty much because the car is not steering as much as the input that you are putting in.

oversteer is when your tail will break loose first and spin you around from the back end. the car is rotating more than you expected with the steering input given.

understeer is more common/easier to get on FWD. oversteer is more common/easier to get on RWD.

thus for the front sway bar, you are stiffening the front and thus adding more understeer potential. for the rear sways, you are adding more stiffness to the rear and adding more oversteer potential.
since many cars (including the box) are FWD and designed to understerr, the rear sway will make the car more steering/handling neutral, and the car should drive more predictably and grip through corners with large steering input.

AWD is nuts.

In order to control over-steer with a front wheel drive, I use my throttle. If the car starts to over steer, I would counter steer and then give the car a little more throttle to help neutralize the over-steer.
By no means should you push the car hard in a turn and jump off the throttle or hit the brakes, you will put the car into a spin. Keep your pedal movements smooth and you will love the rewards of better handling.

^^^ i sort of agree with what you're saying.
however, it's a bit hard to say with FWD, as you're steering and power with the front wheels. plus, a set of tires can only be doing one thing at a time. you're either gripping or you're spinning.
but yeah, i agree to throttle when encountering oversteer in FWD.

I have the TRD rear sway on order right now. I was wondering if anybody has done the TRD and an additional add-on from Hotchkis or Progress?

I have a progress rear sway bar currently, and I would like a bit looser rear end. The front still plows a bit too much for my liking. I was thinking about picking up on of the old Hotchkis bars and stacking it on my Progress.

Has anyone else done this?

Is there a way to make the rear sway bar mounts stiffer? That may help alot.

Man, this thread is clear as mud. Seems from reading it, the best and cheapest way to make your car handle better in turns is to just remove the front sway bar.

Seems else where to control roll, which helps it steer is to use sway bars, but those can hinder you steering. Elsewhere remove all sway bars and use a good set of springs, tires an shocks.

Then seems the sway bars vary in quality depending on who uses them. Seemed in the begining the hos was the best over progress and trd. Or for that matter 2 trd bars.

Then we have a 3 cylinder 1 liter economy car putting out over 105 hp doing a 4 wheel drift using kevlar straps.

I cant speak for any of the above. I just know the ford e 250 extendd body van I owned it would easily fishtail or the rear end come around the front end if I took a turn too fast an gave it too much gas. I feathere the gas and wheel while steering.

The mercedes 240d was loaded. It too had front and rear sway bars. It love to be steered into turns. The faster,the better it handled. Infact if there was any bank to the road it would steer itself. Only problems I had with steering and instead of grip the front would slip and I would need to untwist the steering wheel to get traction an let off the gas. Maybe it has over steer?

Think I will undo the front bar and take a road test.

1.3L 4 cylinder Suzuki engine to be precise. With a good deal of modifications and approaching the 100HP per liter mark, aspirated.

Anybody who knows, knows what a 4 cylinder Suzuki motor is capable of.

Sorry dude, I did not know the geo metro was offered with the larger engine like the swift was. I was of the assumption the 4 cylinder geos were actually toyota tercels with a chevy logo.

None of the engineers where I work recommend removing the front sway bar. They all suggest leaving it alone or a beefier one. All recommended the strut brace to prevent the towers from moving an causing stress or fractures that will be impossible to fix from harder corning.

OK, I'm ready to order the Progressive rear sway bar TODAY. . . what are some of the best sites to compare prices to see where I can get the best deal?

Thanks in advance for your help! :bow:

Any more on the front sway bar? I am going to attempt the hos front bar to match my rear one. I have taken turns to 35mph and it feels like a rear wheel will lift, but still the front loves to plow or fold like a lawn chair.

How hard is it to install? Think a 300lb 30 year old retard with a pair of ramps and metric tools can do it in 4 hours?

yeah, the rear sway is literally like ... 4 bolts in the back. taking off the rear wheels to install will make it easier, but you dont even have to do that if you dont want to. it should take 1 hour if you're not concentrating ...

Thats where I screwed up. I have stock wheels, a jack and a 14 mm socket and 14 mm open ended wrench. I was unable to use the socket unless I removed a wheel. I went back into the auto store and bought a second wrench. I then used the zip tie method to raise the bar in place one side at a time. Then used a wire with electric tape to thread the bolts in. Also having a hitch on the car made it hard to get under it enough to.

The front strut bar wasnt as easy as seemed either. I had the front end jacked up with wheels off the ground, but strut tower plates off and had to manhandle the wheels to get the strut studs to drop low enough to get it in place.

So, any word on the matching front sway bar?

My bar came in a few weeks ago. Man its beefy. Will see how it performs next weekend. BTW, a hat with stickers came in the mail the other day. WOOHOO!!!!

WOOHOO, got it installed. I will admit it will still roll a bit, but the OH SHOOT, feeling is gone.

I took an on ramp waiting for it to pitch 15 degrees as I was getting ready to merge and all of a sudden I ran up on a bunch of cars. Turns out I was doing 55 on the ramp.

Now that I have their bars, strut brace, just need the springs.

I really love my front upgrade. Not only does the car steer itself around corners like my mercedes did, but I accidently drifted it the other day it was wet out. It did like a 4 wheel drift. It was a bit scary, but controllable and noisy with the wheels dragging. I just let off the petals and steered the car where I wanted it to go.

I cant wait to upgrade te sway bar links with the bolt and urthene upgrade I have seen on this site.

I really love my front upgrade. Not only does the car steer itself around corners like my mercedes did, but I accidently drifted it the other day it was wet out. It did like a 4 wheel drift. It was a bit scary, but controllable and noisy with the wheels dragging. I just let off the petals and steered the car where I wanted it to go.

I cant wait to upgrade te sway bar links with the bolt and urthene upgrade I have seen on this site.

Be careful when you are in a four wheel drift and you jump off the throttle, that is the perfect condition for the back end of the car to come around and send you into a spin.

Thanks, I had to steer out of it. It was a bit different than drifting a rear wheel drive full size contractors van or mercedes 240d. It was early morning after a rain and no one was around the immediate area. Now I know the limits for those conditions.

From reading these posts and experiencing the Progress rear sway bar, it seems to me that a smart decision might be the Progress rear bar, factory front bar, and poly end links and mounts for the front bar to help improve body roll and response.

This way the stiffer rear helps cancel out a bit of the understeer, while the front sway bar mods only help tighten up the front vs. getting an aftermarket bar that tightens up and brings back the understeer.

The (front) rubber pieces look like play-doh. I'm positive that swapping out end links and mounts while keeping the factory bar (which can be had for fairly cheap) will benefit as much as, if not more than, simply getting a new bar.

Thoughts?

You need to firm up the connection points between the car and tires. You have the springs and front sway bar and rear torsion beam. I noted 10% more firmness with hos rear sway. 30% more with front hos sway. Maybe 10% more with eibach prosport, however they helped the most with driving and wind causing the car to drift and bobble. I saw another good 20% with the end link bushings, plus it was easier to steer.

The bad part is on some steep drive ways I 3 wheel it. The otherwise, It still rolls slightly, but since its 3 wheeling on some drive ways, I better stop.

I can tell you this. Undong the end links to similuate no front sway bar does no good.

I can turn tight now to the point it drifts in a corner in a very controllable fashing while not feeling like its going to roll and drive in 50mph gusts in excess of highway speeds in full control.

I can vouch for the Progress rear sway bar. Huge improvement in reducing understeer & body roll.

I can also vouch for the comment on getting too confident after the install, going too fast into a corner, suddenly letting of the throttle & stepping out the rear end. I pulled a 180 & found myself going backwards down the offramp.

i am looking for the whiteline rear bar. what car does the xb share this bar with and does any one know where i can get one at for a good price. thanks in advance

great thread, ive learned a little.

with the whiteline you need to look for a sway bar from the Echo.

i did some research and found another compainy ST Suspension Techniques.
its a 11/16 (about 18mm) rear sway bar for about $176.
you can get it from Jeggs but its a 3 to 4 week ship time.
also the hochkens is 15/16 and its hollow (for the rear)

id like to get a ST "and" a Whiteline.
ive seen others that run 2 swaybars in the rear and they say it handles nice.

Nice thread. Very informative.

Now here is my question. I have a 2001 Toyota bB (japan unit). Can I use the same Progress Rear Sway on my box?

so i bought a trd sway bar on ebay for $100 and wow... the difference is astounding. for one, it took me longer to jack up the ___ of the car and sit it on stands that to actually install the bar. and the feel is great, especially with my df210's. whomever hasn't done it yet (it took me over 2 years to get this done) needs to do this mod asap!!!

Just installed the TRD on my box. I found if I removed the rear wheels, install was a snap. I spent more time prepping/jacking than I did installing and torqing. The handling of the box is 100% better. Corner handling is much smoother and the roll is almost completely gone. I have no other suspension mods on my car.

After reading some of the information posted here, I'm thinking it may be best for a front strut brace on my car.

Just installed the TRD on my box. I found if I removed the rear wheels, install was a snap. I spent more time prepping/jacking than I did installing and torqing. The handling of the box is 100% better. Corner handling is much smoother and the roll is almost completely gone. I have no other suspension mods on my car.

After reading some of the information posted here, I'm thinking it may be best for a front strut brace on my car.

lowering springs will do much more than the front strut brace in terms of eliminating roll and increasing tightness.

Thanks for the recommendation evosky. The df210s are the next suspension mod anyway.

Sorry if this has been touched on already.

I was driving back from Church yesterday, and an idea hit me.

I have the Hotchkis rear and front sway bar set on an 05 Xa, and while it works great, I think I can make it (the front one) better. Ever notice how the endlink connector is horizontal to the ground? And only has one hole? Kinda makes it hard to adjust.

Over the next month or so, I am going to find someone to weld up a sleeve for the ends that has a vertical steel plate with more holes, and also have a connector made to fit in the cup (might need to drill it out for a beefier bolt) on the lower A-Arm, with a matching vertical plate.

Voila! It's now adjustable! :icon_twisted:

I own a 2006 Scion TC with spoiler, ceramic brakes, smoke front and rear lights with LED, fog and driving light, leather and heated seats, and new rain tires. Now I want it to corner better. I am not a member of a club because I cannot find one in the Seattle area so information is hard to come by. I was looking at a set of sway bars from AutoAnything. I don't want too big of a front bar because I don't want too much oversteer. I want it to corner like my 2006 Boxter, competely predictable or like my 1972 Corvette Z-30, which a ZL-1 with a small block. It is also completely predictable with power on. I don't think you can realistically spin a Boxter with the electronic suspension on. What does anyone think about sway bars on a Scion TC? I don't want so much lean and sway. Do I have to lower it? Do I have to change struts? I hope the sway bars will reduce lean and ad more controlled drift. Open for Comments,Stan

Wow hold on man...slow down here.

Take some more time to look around the forum for these questions. I know there are even answers on here from 06, where I asked the questions.

for a brief answer, Sways are Awesome. I had the TRD Rear, which is pretty much enough. Car is ____ near neutral in the corners, even pushing it HARD. I would definetly call it predictable.

I currently have the Hotckis sways, set soft front, medium rear. Currently I have a little much oversteer for my taste when pushing. but nothing beats being able to adjust sways to your taste, I just finished setting front to Hard and left rear on middle.

Granted these results are for the Auto tC, the manual is lighter on the front a tad and generally has slightly more oversteer.

Good luck though...

I autocross my 2005 xA, so I've learned a bit about suspension, pretty much all of which can be found in one form or another on this site.

That being said, the Stock sway bar is "enough". However, you can't beat tunability. Hotchkis all around for your TC will greatly improve the tunability of the TC's setup.

Also, a trick I learned from autocrossing is to air your rear tires more, like 10 lbs more, if you want some oversteer. The stiffer the rear, the more it will slide out.

You can also look into stiffer springs. The TRD springs, which I have on my TRD struts are about 10% stiffer than stock. You can get much stiffer springs elsewhere, which will also tune you suspension, depending on what you want.

I would recommend campaigning your car at a few autocross events and ask some of the more experienced people watch and see what's going on with your car. Another autocross trick is to fasten zipties to the tops of the shock cylinders to see what your travel is, this can tell you a lot about how everything's working.

i'm looking forward to the trd or progress rear sway bar, and just leaving the front stock and adding a strut bar. any good deals out there?

great thread, ive learned a little.

with the whiteline you need to look for a sway bar from the Echo.

i did some research and found another compainy ST Suspension Techniques.
its a 11/16 (about 18mm) rear sway bar for about $176.
you can get it from Jeggs but its a 3 to 4 week ship time.
also the hochkens is 15/16 and its hollow (for the rear)

id like to get a ST "and" a Whiteline.
ive seen others that run 2 swaybars in the rear and they say it handles nice.

Handles very nicely. I have the BTR76 for the xB.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs518.ash1/30496_1437009692688_1456353909_31138171_5170110_n.jpg

What if you have a yakima rack with a basket case on it. That's allot of weight on top of the box.
Will a Hotchkis front sway bar work better for that set up?
Autocrossing you don't do with big racks and passengers.
Daily driving you do.
So, my question is. For daily driving with some extra weight added on the box, would a Hotchkis sway bar work for your advantage when making a hard turn?
This is a great thread. Thought I would keep it alive.:icon_smile:
In my xa I thought putting -3 camber shims made the car over steer.
-3 camber made it over steer allot. Allot of fun that is.:rofl:
I don't know about the xb. haven't tried it yet.

ive seen others that run 2 swaybars in the rear and they say it handles nice.

How do you do that?