For those of you who do not know, on March 4th 2007 Chrysler has been put up for sale. Thats right, part of one of the "Big Three"

Ford isn't so far behind from doing the same...

Expect big changes in the automotive industry for America...

LINK IS HERE One of the "Big Three" falls... (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Columns/articleId=119811)

Now that DaimlerChrysler has put the Chrysler Group up for sale, the long-expected massive restructuring of the American automobile industry might finally have arrived.

Take a snapshot for posterity, because today's U.S. automotive landscape won't look like it does for much longer. As a friend reminded me, it's like what happened in the rail business at the turn of the 20th century, when once-dominant steam locomotives gave way to diesel- and electric-powered ones. The entire rail industry was turned on its ear.

For the past couple of decades, experts have been predicting a major restructuring of the U.S. auto industry because of too much plant capacity (notably that owned by Chrysler, Ford and GM), too many employees and too many costs (especially employee costs). Automakers have tried to ward off this inevitable transformation by attempting a nip here and a tuck there, but cosmetic surgery will no longer be enough.

No matter who buys it — and the list of potential suitors is long — Chrysler as we presently know it is history. More than likely, Chrysler will be acquired and broken into pieces. Some parts might be sold to the highest bidder, while others could be tossed onto the trash heap.

And what's going to happen to Ford? Is a U.S. automobile industry without Ford possible? Even a now-retired Ford employee recently told me that he never thought it possible but now is reconsidering. Indeed, Ford's turnaround appears elusive. Only recently, Ford admitted it is not meeting the goals of its Way Forward turnaround plan and employees are losing faith.

And it's not just the automakers themselves that will be part of the restructuring. What's happening with Chrysler has been occurring in the auto parts business for the past couple of years. A massive restructuring, brought on largely by bankruptcies, has been ongoing, gathered speed last year, and looks destined to continue at full speed in the near future.

Dow Chemical might well be the next major casualty. Based in Midland, Michigan, the company sells to the automakers as well as the pharmaceutical, agricultural and packaging industries, and it looks to be a takeover target. The private-equity firms of Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co. (KKR), Blackstone Capital Partners LP and the Carlyle Group are reportedly interested in teaming up to buy Dow in a deal estimated to be worth $54 billion. All of these equity firms interested in Dow have coincidentally — or maybe not so coincidentally — also been mentioned as potential buyers of Chrysler.

The size of this $54-billion deal would surpass even the record $45-billion KKR and Texas Pacific Group recently paid to take over TXU, the Texas energy company. And that deal surpassed the record-breaking $39-billion Blackstone paid for Equity Office Properties in early February.

In fact, the deal for Equity Office Properties foreshadows what a buyer might do to Chrysler or any other automotive supplier. Before its first month of ownership was out, Blackstone had begun dismantling its investment and selling it in pieces.

For contrast, look at what is happening with the import brands. Most recently, Toyota announced that Tupelo, Mississippi, will be the home of its eighth assembly plant in North American. No surprise that Toyota picked the South, because it is far from the influence of the Detroit brands, UAW labor and higher wages. Every other import automaker has gone to the South as well — Honda's operation in Ohio is the northernmost of these operations.

The American automobile industry isn't going away, but the industry of tomorrow won't look like the one of today.

do you have a source/link for this? Or is this an opinion piece?

do you have a source/link for this? Or is this an opinion piece?

the glowing blue (or orange) text on line 5 is a link.

I put a Bold next to it to make it easier to see.

It's probably a good thing that giant monopolistic corporations will be "re-structuring". I just hope it results in better cars though and not crappier ones.

thanks sly...

that is a very dark blue and didn't look like hypertext, thank you for helping me to see it.

interesting stuff...

well, I think we all new it was coming and until the smoke clears we won't know the full impact

wait what? How is this a bye-bye to anything American?

Chrysler stopped being part of the Big Three a long time ago, which is why people refer to it as the Big 2.5... DCX is half German; hardly American.

This isn't news! :)

The whole article was mainly targeted towards Ford and Chrysler.

What about GM??

IMO, I think they'll be a little tougher to beat. GHm is going to have some great new porducts coming out in the next 2-3 years that, I think< will keep it on it's feet.

they said the same thing when chrysler was for sale the 1st time. GM wont die, its waaaaay to big. and ford is making big steps towrds getting better cars out there.

you gotta love freemarket..

put out overpriced pieces of ____ and go out of business..

I cant wait for the american industry to change. All they have to do is make cars that people will buy (like the tc, civic Si, camry, etc)..

I mean at least the cobalt is a little better than the cavalier, and companies like pontiac are putting out nicer cars, but ford and practically every is selling pure crap that I would never drive...

cant wait for the future cuz its gonna get really interesting..

whats that?? Is that a turbod 4 door that will compete with the sti and evo? Is that a 400 horse power family sports car that will compete with the s4 and the m3? how about a car that will compete with the civic and the tc?? how about a supercar other than just the ford gt??

^i for one cannot friggin wait until the day when I say I want an american car because it is gonna be something sick..

here's the latest on the subject http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/07/zetsche-daimler-is-not-auctioning-chrysler/
all i can say is that they did it to themselves.

This headline is older than March 4th. This started snow balling around mid January. DaimlerChrysler, while HQ'd in Detroit is no longer an American company. I thought this was a given since 1998. Most people outside of the "D" have no idea.

I love how everyone is wanting these companies to fail. That's just sick and twisted.

Are we bored of talking about Scion and now were bashing American automakers?

Stop the hate.

Peace :eyebrow:

One issue with the american companies is the union presence and all the issues around it (Which are not occurring at toyota). The union has a million times too much power (they are the new mafia.. that is about it. They can bully anyone and not see any fall out from it) and the companies affected are forced to pay ridiculous wages, even if they are losing money. I know some will argue, but if you look at what has happened in nearly every large american company, you will see what I mean. It opens up the door for sub par workers to make the same overly high wages as the good employees. I have seen this first hand in many companies, including some that effectively dried up small towns because they folded when they had no choice but to pay someone $15 per hour to sweep a floor cause the union said so. The time and need for unions has come and gone in the US. And until that changes, the big three will continue to fall.

Granted, that is not the only issue. The lack of gumption to try something new and still build quality is not helping either, and recent attempts to change that may have come too late. If they do something new, it is too expensive for the average joe to purchase. Thier overhead is just too high.

My prediction is that Toyota is going to continue on and trump the last of the big three (GM), hurting them and forcing a restructure. Hopefully this will signal a slow regrowth and some major changes in these companies so they come back in a good way.

It is a shame, because I would buy american any day of the week if the product and quality were there, but it just isnt these days. Even the Chevy truck is going downhill. The corvette is putting a hurting on MUCH more expensive competition, but how many people are running out to buy a car that expensive? Same goes for the caddy. They have always been great with making a lot of power and keeping them efficient, but only in thier expensive cars. They provide nothing for the younger generation really.

Anyway, that is my take on it coming from my experience in an enormous corporation. Of course, different industries, but you see the same types of movements happening. The lack of ability to change fluidly and jump into new market segments is killing the american auto maker.

One issue with the american companies is the union presence and all the issues around it (Which are not occurring at toyota). The union has a million times too much power (they are the new mafia.. that is about it. They can bully anyone and not see any fall out from it) and the companies affected are forced to pay ridiculous wages, even if they are losing money. I know some will argue, but if you look at what has happened in nearly every large american company, you will see what I mean. It opens up the door for sub par workers to make the same overly high wages as the good employees. I have seen this first hand in many companies, including some that effectively dried up small towns because they folded when they had no choice but to pay someone $15 per hour to sweep a floor cause the union said so. The time and need for unions has come and gone in the US. And until that changes, the big three will continue to fall.

Granted, that is not the only issue. The lack of gumption to try something new and still build quality is not helping either, and recent attempts to change that may have come too late. If they do something new, it is too expensive for the average joe to purchase. Thier overhead is just too high.

My prediction is that Toyota is going to continue on and trump the last of the big three (GM), hurting them and forcing a restructure. Hopefully this will signal a slow regrowth and some major changes in these companies so they come back in a good way.

It is a shame, because I would buy american any day of the week if the product and quality were there, but it just isnt these days. Even the Chevy truck is going downhill. The corvette is putting a hurting on MUCH more expensive competition, but how many people are running out to buy a car that expensive? Same goes for the caddy. They have always been great with making a lot of power and keeping them efficient, but only in thier expensive cars. They provide nothing for the younger generation really.

Anyway, that is my take on it coming from my experience in an enormous corporation. Of course, different industries, but you see the same types of movements happening. The lack of ability to change fluidly and jump into new market segments is killing the American auto maker.

I think this is a car forum, not a political one, but regardless if there were no unions around everyone would be making wal-mart wages and the CEOs of these corporations would pocket even more. The unions may be too powerful in some cases, but everyone deserves to be paid enough money to feed their families. and another thing... I thought American cars were way cheaper than Japanese and German ones. And GM and Ford have been developing some interesting stuff recently. Both have very interesting hybrid concepts.

Well, the discussion started, so call it political if you want, but my post was just as relevant.

Sorry, but a sub par worker does not deserve to make the same wages as someone who busts their butt all day and does a great job. THAT is what the unions are doing these days. I dont know where people got the idea that you should be able to come into any job and half arse it and deserve the pay of a high level, high performing employee. And that mentality is forcing union companies to pay wages for low levels of work. Like I said, I know people who worked for a union company, worked thier butt off while half the people on thier shift were paid the same, or more (because of seniority only, another stupid mentality), screwed off half the day and even worse, could not be fired as long as they didnt screw up in just the right way so many times. The company shut the doors and dried up a small town because of this.

Toyota believes in paying people what they are worth, and is very successful at it.

I also was not putting down the american companies completely, but thier situation right now proves they are not doing things efficiently.

One issue with the american companies is the union presence and all the issues around it (Which are not occurring at toyota). The union has a million times too much power (they are the new mafia.. that is about it. They can bully anyone and not see any fall out from it) and the companies affected are forced to pay ridiculous wages, even if they are losing money. I know some will argue, but if you look at what has happened in nearly every large american company, you will see what I mean. It opens up the door for sub par workers to make the same overly high wages as the good employees. I have seen this first hand in many companies, including some that effectively dried up small towns because they folded when they had no choice but to pay someone $15 per hour to sweep a floor cause the union said so. The time and need for unions has come and gone in the US. And until that changes, the big three will continue to fall.

Granted, that is not the only issue. The lack of gumption to try something new and still build quality is not helping either, and recent attempts to change that may have come too late. If they do something new, it is too expensive for the average joe to purchase. Thier overhead is just too high.

My prediction is that Toyota is going to continue on and trump the last of the big three (GM), hurting them and forcing a restructure. Hopefully this will signal a slow regrowth and some major changes in these companies so they come back in a good way.

It is a shame, because I would buy american any day of the week if the product and quality were there, but it just isnt these days. Even the Chevy truck is going downhill. The corvette is putting a hurting on MUCH more expensive competition, but how many people are running out to buy a car that expensive? Same goes for the caddy. They have always been great with making a lot of power and keeping them efficient, but only in thier expensive cars. They provide nothing for the younger generation really.

Anyway, that is my take on it coming from my experience in an enormous corporation. Of course, different industries, but you see the same types of movements happening. The lack of ability to change fluidly and jump into new market segments is killing the American auto maker.

I think this is a car forum, not a political one, but regardless if there were no unions around everyone would be making wal-mart wages and the CEOs of these corporations would pocket even more. The unions may be too powerful in some cases, but everyone deserves to be paid enough money to feed their families. and another thing... I thought American cars were way cheaper than Japanese and German ones. And GM and Ford have been developing some interesting stuff recently. Both have very interesting hybrid concepts.

The vast majority of American workers are not union, and I see prosperity all over the place. In the U.S. it costs automakers over $50/per hour in labor (wages, benefits, etc.) to build a car. In Japan it's around $22/hour, and in South Korea it's less than $5.00/hour. Why so much in America? Unions. They foster mediocrity, and protect bad workers, and are why so many companies are shipping manufacturing offshore.

I think this is a car forum, not a political one, but regardless if there were no unions around everyone would be making wal-mart wages and the CEOs of these corporations would pocket even more. The unions may be too powerful in some cases, but everyone deserves to be paid enough money to feed their families. and another thing... I thought American cars were way cheaper than Japanese and German ones. And GM and Ford have been developing some interesting stuff recently. Both have very interesting hybrid concepts.

I'm not sure where you get this from. As a Computer Programmer for a small company, I do not belong to a union, yet I do not make so called 'Wal-Mart' wages.

Ok, I do love my tC and my fair share of import cars... but deep down I just feel like I have to ask... are people really, and I mean REALLY, ok with giving up the Mustang, GTO, and the rest? These are more than cars in many respects... many of these are legacies...

I don't know... a world without American muscle seems like a world without color to me... :(

no one's fault but their own...

Wait, everyone knows that the US automakers are in trouble... but to paint the picture that Chrysler did this to themselves is twisting it up a bit. Do some more research and read some other, NEWS articles (the piece originally posted is an 'expert insider column', not quite fact though she had a lot of facts)... and you'll read that a lot of people who worked for Mercedes are saying that they were just stretched to thin. How is that Chrysler's fault? For the most part, this is Mercedes fault for not managing their other half better! Another article I read even went on to say how Germans were very optimistic about the Damiler-Chrysler merger.

And the 'restructuring', while a big part of it is due to lack of financial performance, is just Mercedes shedding extra baggage before things get really mucked up. Even Dr Z said it himself... if they don't sell Chrysler now, there's going to be a buyout. What everyone sees as a negative is actually a positive for both Chrysler and Mercedes. Mercedes wants to get back to competing w/ BMW (cause BMW is killing them at the moment) and they can still make some money off of Chrysler before they totally drive it into the ground.

With Chrysler detached from Mercedes, they may get a better backing and not have to produce recycled Mercedes parts (like the ugly ___ Crossfire).

And I don't think it's an insult to say that the partnership with Mitsubishi hurt them pretty bad as well. I respect the Lancer/EVO, but I wouldn't drive any other Mitsu if you gave it to me for free. If you did, I'd take it straight to Carmax and sell it. LOL.

I'm not totally trying to defend the US makers... sales figures and stock analysis tell the story, but unlike Ford, I don't think Chrysler deserves to get beat up like this. Of the big 3, they've been doing the best. The 300 is a freaking mass-market hit... too little too late I guess though. The Dodge Challenger is coming... again, too little too late, but had Daimler-Chryler thought of these things a few years ago, it wouldn't be so dismal now.

Ford, on the other hand, just met with Toyota to suggest some kind of partnership... now there's an automaker who is in REAL trouble.

Anyway... as long as the Challenger is still a greenlight, I could care less what happens to Chrysler or who buys them. :P

Ok, I do love my tC and my fair share of import cars... but deep down I just feel like I have to ask... are people really, and I mean REALLY, ok with giving up the Mustang, GTO, and the rest? These are more than cars in many respects... many of these are legacies...

I don't know... a world without American muscle seems like a world without color to me...


LOL. No one is giving up! I only own a tC (which I do love, don't get me wrong) cause I couldn't afford anything else... but look at what the US automakers came out/are coming out with:

Mustang - including new BOSS, BULLITT, GT500, and Cobra versions, with a new design slated for 2010

Challenger - have you seen this car? I mean... HAVE YOU SEEN THIS CAR? I want one so bad I can taste it. Why do all cars have to be wedge-shaped stilletos with 4 wheels? THEY DON'T.

GTO - granted, a boring looking muscle car that's been discontinued, but the cheapest piece of machinery with 400HP out the door

Charger - Other than having 4 doors, it's a mean looking vehicle. R/T and Daytona look great

300 - Granted, not a 'muscle' car, but look at how popular it is and what you can do with it

Pontiac G8 - coming soon... is basically a re-badged Holden, but it's going to be the best Pontiac that Pontiac has had in decades

Sky/Solstice/Demon - Probably the only roadsters other than the Honda s2000 that won't get you labeled as '___'... and for a lot lot less. (google Dodge Demon... it looks MEAN!!)

Camaro - I had a friend tell me 10 years ago that Chevy was going to discontinue the Camaro so they could re-design it and bring it back to being a head-turner and not the mass-market granny-mobile that it had become. Sure enough he was right. (I will admit though, I am not liking the grill on the new Camaro). And with a new Camaro, you know a Firebird is not far behind.

Not to mention you still have your Vettes/Z06 and Vipers out there.

If you're a tuner and import-only fan, then of course, you're just rolling your eyes at all the above, but that's ok. The tuner market is saturated and booming. But look at what the imports have to offer for muscle/sports... S2000, G35, 350Z, RX-8, MX-5, Skyline, Eclipse and... ??? Toyota doesn't even have anything at the moment (or are they still producing MR2s? I don't even know). Acura is moving towards becoming a luxury brand (thus discontinuing the RSX) like Lexus.

American muscle is coming back and if you're into that kind of vehicle, then there's nothing from overseas currently that compares. Except for the Skyline of course, which is going to be one hell of a car for sure.

there was an interview i read a few weeks ago with a union worker at a GM plant somewhere....he had a masters is Accounting but he spent the last 25yrs of his life installling gloveboxs....he was making $54/hr...who in there right mind would turn that job down.

the starting salary of an assembly line worker is more then the starting salary of an engineer at GM.

sucker punch...thats fine and dandy but gas is going to go back over $3/gal this summer and no one is going to buy V8s...the Big 2.5 lost because they didnt spread out there portfolio. they didnt develope a GOOD small car. they are to worried about SUVs and trucks.

"When a chain smoker develops lung cancer after thirty years of habitual self-annihilation, their ill-health should come as no surprise to either the smoker or a casual observer. Likewise, The Big 2.5’s current tailspin is the direct result of bad habits stretching back some fifty years. Like a pack-a-day puffer, the Detroit automakers “felt just fine” for several decades. Eventually, inevitably, their dirty little habits caught up with them."

American muscle is coming back and if you're into that kind of vehicle, then there's nothing from overseas currently that compares. Except for the Skyline of course, which is going to be one hell of a car for sure.
I was watching an interview at the Tokyo auto salon show and they the tuner market is going down in japan slowly. They said the people in Japan is buying more family cars now. They the tuning culture is booming in the U.S. and they want to focus on us now. I guess they are going through some problems too over sea. I love the GTO. I will hate to see it go. I think american muscle is coming back also but the question is how long would it stay with high gas prices. The new Supra and the new Skyline should be coming to the U.S. soon and the american muscle cars will have to do battle them in the auto market. Time will tell what will happen in the near future.

I think it's an overbroad generalization to say that unions are destroying companies. Unions exist outside of car manufacturing plants. Some unions have gotten more powerful, but that's because the corporation failed to check their power. The reverse is true, like Wal-mart or Comcast.

That's besides the point. The reason why American companies are faltering is because they make crap cars, bottom line. When was the last time they made anything on par with their foreign counterparts? When gas prices were going up, who were the ones saying 'this is just a phase, people will still buy SUVs'? The american manufacturers, that's who.

I remember trying to buy a Ford and how outrageously priced it was for how little you get. It's still the same today.

The last homerun for Chrysler was the 300 series, and instead of building around that, they're abandoning it for a different design.

Companies that get fat on their greed and fail to have a long term plan go by the wayside, as Chrysler is doing now and other companies will do soon.

free market people, free market..

nothing is more effiecient. Let supply and demand rule sales. You can't feel bad when American automotive workers cant feed their familes. Put out better cars...

Unions are not part of free market, so they can never be as efficient as a company who runs without one.

and as for the above list of car, while most of them are improvements on the crap that has been put out lately, you will notice that none of them sell for under $20,000, which is arguably the biggest market of all..

the only way for GM and Ford to survive is to file chapter 11. then restart with out the HUGE legacy costs, health care and union BS. sure ppl will be angry...but offer the old workers jobs back, just at more realistic rates. THEN they need to drop brands, and then close about 75% of there dealer network. then they have a chance.

GM should be structured as follows
Chevy – Average cars
Corvette (new brand) performance cars
GMC – Trucks & SUVs
Cadillac – Luxury

sell/Kill everything else, its just fluff

Ford should jsut be Ford - Volvo - Mazda
sell/kill everything else...and for gods sakes get us the damn Euro focus!

Well here is a viewpoint from Detroit. I work in the auto industry for a supplier. Some of my family worked for the big 3.

Some will say that I am covering for Detroit but I can tell you about both sides of the fence. I have owned all american cars until the xB. I have had some real crap cars over the years and yes they were all american. But I really feel that the past 10 years has been much different. Quality is way up for American built cars.

I bought the box because of the style and I truely do love it. It is a lot of fun but I have had some problems with it. A new clutch (Warrenty 20k miles, weak pressure plate), RR power window switch quit working, Paint problems and the trans fluid was changed due to hard shifting in cold weather. I have a little rust around the edges of the door step where the plastic rubbed through the paint.

I also have a Chevy pickup for pulling a boat. The 98 truck or this new 06 truck never went to the dealer for service. I also had a Dodge caravan with I think one trip back to the dealer.

Don't get me wrong here, I love the box and the engineering behind it but I don't think it is any better than most American cars. It is a model by model thing when it comes to quality.

Now Design has been different. I bought the box because of the design. Now toyota brought the box over here as kind of a filler (to have something to sell with the xA). the xA was the shinning star made for the american market. The xB is what sold the most (before the tC) so they were a little lucky there. Now the xB is designed for the american market and I think it looks like it is. The style is growing on me a little but I like the old one much more.

Maybe this is payback for all the years of bad cars but I think manufactureing in this country is going to be a thing of the past at least for good wages. Someone here stated that a auto worker made $54 an hour. That ia about 120k a year. I find that hard to believe. That figure with benifits would make more sense.

I don't know what is going to happen. I do know that many jobs are being shipped to cheap labor areas of the world, mostly China. Michigan is losing about 60K jobs a year but Walmart is hiring.

the guy that made the $54/hr bought a Ford GT after he took his buyout plan. its all true. ill see if i can find the article

One issue with the american companies is the union presence and all the issues around it (Which are not occurring at toyota). The union has a million times too much power (they are the new mafia.. that is about it. They can bully anyone and not see any fall out from it) and the companies affected are forced to pay ridiculous wages, even if they are losing money. I know some will argue, but if you look at what has happened in nearly every large american company, you will see what I mean. It opens up the door for sub par workers to make the same overly high wages as the good employees. I have seen this first hand in many companies, including some that effectively dried up small towns because they folded when they had no choice but to pay someone $15 per hour to sweep a floor cause the union said so. The time and need for unions has come and gone in the US. And until that changes, the big three will continue to fall.

Exactly... although I won't put 100% of the blame on the unions, they have essentially killed their own companies. At some where along the line, the Big 3 (when they were the big 3...) became really complacent and didn't even try to improve the quality, efficiency, value, utility, etc of their vehicles.

Now, what are they suffering with? Trying to sell cars while taking thousands of dollars of losses JUST to pay for all the myriad services the union forces them to offer and pay for. Combine that with poor management (really, who thinks of some of the cars these companies come out with?), and you have a recipe for disaster.

Of course, this has been going on a long time, but no one seemed to pay attention until Toyota showed up on their front lawn and employees started driving Camrys to work (ok, I don't know if that really happens but it sounds cool :P).

And the view that without unions, wages would remain at minimum wage and management would pocket all income is ridiculous. Economics doesn't work like that... no offense, but I suggest to the person(s) who said that to take some type of intro to economics course. Labor is scare, as are resources... the foundation of economics.

If anyone has ever owned and worked on an american car made withing the past 3 decades then you know why they're all hurting. I'm also sick of hearing in the news that the americans are going "bankrupt".... BS!!! First of all their profits have gone down alot which means all of these corporate ahole running these companies have smaller paychecks then in prvious years, so they cut back american workers jobs so that they can keep their pockets fat. http://www.autoblog.com/2006/09/07/alan-mulally-will-make-at-least-10-million-year-at-ford/ Who the F*** does he think he is! Gee I thought they were hurting yet they have enough money to give this ahole $10 mill a year, yet they can't give their employees jobs, good pensions, or even medical converage.
Another thing that your not being told is the fact that american name brand cars are kicking a$$ everywhere else in the world. They make great products for all of these other countries yet they they don't bring any of it here, instead we get a vehicle that is rebadged for 5 different brands using the same chassis from 20 year ago. I have no pitty for american autocompanies. They deserve it, especially from all the years of using politics and what not to destroy other fine american car companies. Like Desoto AMC Plymouth all names chrysler bought up and killed off, GM killed off Oldsmobile, and not to mention using political power to kill of the Tucker Automobile. No, the american companies deserve to burn.
The real victims are the american workers. They're losing their jobs not because american cars aren't selling but because the american car companies keep building cars in Mexico and Canada, plus the selfish aholes running the companies "need" to keep there salaries so high because they "work" really hard. Plz. What american workers need to do is all take a sick day at the same time, or work really slow to really hurt these corporate pigs. Toyota and Hyundai are building new plants here in america (toyota plans to build 5 new plants) and I hope these workers can get jobs with these companies.

The vast majority of American workers are not union, and I see prosperity all over the place. In the U.S. it costs automakers over $50/per hour in labor (wages, benefits, etc.) to build a car. In Japan it's around $22/hour, and in South Korea it's less than $5.00/hour. Why so much in America? Unions. They foster mediocrity, and protect bad workers, and are why so many companies are shipping manufacturing offshore.

I may be missing something here, but it sounds like your arguing that it's better for autoworkers to be paid somewhere between $5-$22 an hour...? Better for who? If you really beieve that autoworkers being paid less by any of the 'big3' would result in lower priced cars, or an improvement in the quality of product...Then I want to come live in your world of magical gingerbread houses and gumdrop candy mountains.

Ford is losing it's butt, yes. But they have openly stated that their losses were a planned part of their 'restructuring'. This 'restructuring' involves the largest auto parts manufacturing plant in the world- which opened 2 years ago in India. This 'restructuring' also involves massive auto assembly plants in China that have been tooling up and have had training from Ford for over 2 years now. Ford expects to have these things fully in production by the end of 2008. They have also openly stated that they fully expect to be profitable again by early 2009, and even claim that they will recover their losses by 2010! How will they recover billions and billions in 'planned' losses by 2010?
...By manufacturing cars at costs that are amazingly low, in other parts of the world- and then shipping them back and selling them at their normal price ranges. It's easy to imagine and project huge profits from a $23,000 car that cost you 1/4 of what it did to manufacture 3 years earlier.
The only problem I see for them is their market.... I wonder if anyone has questioned how to sell a car to a market that can no longer afford it? After all, the guy who used to make $50 an hour now makes between $5 and $22.

bill ford hasnt taken a paycheck in a few months and wont do so until the company is profitable again...thats some good motivation.

bill ford hasnt taken a paycheck in a few months and wont do so until the company is profitable again...thats some good motivation.

:rofl: Yeah...and he's really hurting for money, right? :rofl:

the guy that made the $54/hr bought a Ford GT after he took his buyout plan. its all true. ill see if i can find the article
Just like the tens of thousands of other auto-workers in the Detroit area, right?
...ooops, no!! They couldn't make their mortgage payments and had their houses foreclosed on.

Not everyone connected to the 'big3' works directly for them. Half of the auto industry in the Detroit area was contracted work thru parts manufacturers and such. When it's cheaper to "outsource", or "offshore", or whatever title is given to slave labor nowadays- These huge companies jump at the chance, and it doesn't just affect a company like Ford itself. It's screws alot of other people and companies.
Their purpose is to maximize profits, so they can get back to business as usual--which consists of sitting around the boardrooms, patting eachother on the backs, and giving themselves mega-million dollar bonuses for 'productivity'.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/blue-collar-auto-worker-buys-175600-ford-gt.html

still looking for the glovebox guy

Someone mentioned that unions are not only present in the auto industry. 100% correct, and they ruin companies in other industries as well. I have worked as a union worker, lived and dealt with union issues and have worked in many types of industry and have see 1st hand the complete BS that goes along with them. All the union does is shoot itself in the foot. Hmmm company is going broke.. lets strike!!! Boy that is a smart choice. Lets make them lose more money until we force them to pay us more for the same job we have been doing, and a job that people do for less money anywhere else. It is mindless thinking. It just forces already corrupt companies to become even more corrupt and outsource to places that do not force them to pay ridiculous wages.

No one is "entitled" to a job, you get it and earn your keep. No one is "entitled" to a raise, you earn it through performance. And no one deserves anything due to seniority, period. The better performer and harder worker deserves the high pay. Then everyone has incentive to be more productive, thus the company is more successful. Too many union folks seem to think that getting paid way too much for a short time is better than getting paid decent for a lifetime at a stable company.

Again, the union is not all of the issue, there are many more, but it amazes me in todays world that people still think the unions are such a great thing. The only people I personally have met that think so are lazy workers who brag that they sit around half thier shift and still make $25/hour.

^^^ DIGN DING DING we have a winner

It says he bought it after his buyout at GM, but nowhere does it say that his buyout was that much money- or that he bought it with the buyout money. It does say that he was an elctrician with GM for 37 years, tho.

..which I guess your purpose is meant to imply:

1) GM, in its wonderful Humane tradition, has given its humble employees such huge buyouts as to allow them to pursue their richest fantasies.
or
2) GM has obviously paid this humble electrician WAY too much money over his 37 years, and that's why they're hurting now.
or both.

I'm happy for this man, but I don't see how this shows anything about GM, Ford, or Chryslers position.

American automotive industry is lacking because they pay Americans way more than the Japanese auto industry pays their workers. (just like all the other 500 posts above said :) )

Also because the quality and design of cars nowadays from america is less than par.

Also because they thought the SUV and Truck market would be enough to keep them alive. (Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra anyone? WAY better trucks :) )

What Detroit needs to do is either drop wages for assembly line jobs (how hard is an assembly line job, sounds BORING to me) Make safe reliable vehicles with less complex engines, mechanisms, etc.. (the less complicated, less likely to break) And get a hold in the tuner market and or young buyers market (Cars under 20,000)

If they can do all this above, they will be a strong competition for Foreign Automakers.

GM:
Pontiac needs to redesign the style of the GTO and or release a Firebird/Transam based of new Camaro.

Chevrolet needs to make 3 Camaros, an 18,000 RS version with V6 or even I4SuperCharged, a 26,000 Z28 edition with a V8, and a 35,000 SS Edition with a Supercharged V8. That would cover alot of market space.

Ford:
Ford needs to make a quality mustang, period. Same a Chevrolet with the 3 step program about the same prices.

Dodge:
Same for Challenger as with Ford and Chevrolet.

All the american automakers need to bring their signature cars at a low price with high quality!! People will buy the Camaro, simply because it is a Camaro, not because it is quality, or faster, or slower even.

They also need to make super cheap vehicles, like the cobalt should be only 14,000. Ford should make a fusion for 14,000 also, and Dodge needs to release the Demon with a base model of about 14,000 also.

This would help American automotive industry ALOT. But sadly, this most likely will not happen.. At least not for a few more years (like 5-15).

Also because they thought the SUV and Truck market would be enough to keep them alive. (Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra anyone? WAY better trucks :) )

Idunno... my mother's F-250 Super Duty Diesel is a beast... she pulls a horse trailer with it.

ford sells what....1 million f150s per year...toyota is aiming for 150,000

My rusty piece of crap H2 hummer is the last american car i'm ever buying in my life. i've had so many american cars that were OK but after paying $65,000 in cash for my hummer, and being sooooo highly dissappointed, i'm never buying one again. the only people that will continue to buy american cars are stubborn hicks.

And I hope no one takes my comments as being anti-american or anything of the sort. but when i pay $65,000 of my hard earned cash for a product, i want it to be a very good product and not ____ like american cars are. i dont care if the car came from america, japan or fu/ckin' pluto - i want a quality product for the price i pay - and with american cars, you don't get that.
- sh00k

This thread falls under the "Can of Worms" section. Mods please move it there. :doh:

My vote is Toyota buys Ford scraps everything except the Heavy Duty Trucks and blows GM/Chrysler out of the water

bill ford hasnt taken a paycheck in a few months and wont do so until the company is profitable again...thats some good motivation.

Actually he hasn’t taken a check for at least 3 years.

American automotive industry is lacking because they pay Americans way more than the Japanese auto industry pays their workers. (just like all the other 500 posts above said :) )

This is not true. What are you basing this pay scale on?

when i have time il post wage differences, i have to leave for work..

My vote is Toyota buys Ford scraps everything except the Heavy Duty Trucks and blows GM/Chrysler out of the water

Um... Mustang?

My rusty piece of crap H2 hummer is the last american car i'm ever buying in my life. i've had so many american cars that were OK but after paying $65,000 in cash for my hummer, and being sooooo highly dissappointed, i'm never buying one again. the only people that will continue to buy american cars are stubborn hicks.

And I hope no one takes my comments as being anti-american or anything of the sort. but when i pay $65,000 of my hard earned cash for a product, i want it to be a very good product and not poop like american cars are. i dont care if the car came from america, japan or fu/ckin' pluto - i want a quality product for the price i pay - and with american cars, you don't get that.
- sh00k

Well.. you did make a mistake there. The H2 is about the biggest pos suv you could buy. The military hummer has its share of issues (like being impossible to work on in the fiel) if you talk to some motorpool guys. The H2 is in no way, shape or form a hummer, it is an suv made to look like one for the most part.

i personally know a few toyota techs that used to be gm techs at one point in their carear and now make 6 figures and usualy work half days. Toyota takes good care of its people imo.

I've been seeing this dismantling of large American "smokestack" industries getting smaller each year. I am convinced that when the CEOs and Boards of Directors found that they couldn't bring the labor unions to their knees, they started investing more and more in foreigncompanies (GM -Toyota, Chrysler-Mitsubishi etc.) so they could close American plants, lay off union workers and still pull in profits trough their foreign affiliates. I predict that in the next 5 - 10 years we will see an explosion of foreign owned and managed factories here in the US, all with non-union employees. It's all part of globalization -bringing the US worker's salary and benefits down to a world wide average. We'll see how far it goes.

i personally know a few toyota techs that used to be gm techs at one point in their carear and now make 6 figures and usualy work half days. Toyota takes good care of its people imo.
yes thats true, but if you work for a gm ford or chrysler dealer ur guarrantied work :rofl:

My rusty piece of crap H2 hummer is the last american car i'm ever buying in my life. i've had so many american cars that were OK but after paying $65,000 in cash for my hummer, and being sooooo highly dissappointed, i'm never buying one again. the only people that will continue to buy american cars are stubborn hicks.

And I hope no one takes my comments as being anti-american or anything of the sort. but when i pay $65,000 of my hard earned cash for a product, i want it to be a very good product and not poop like american cars are. i dont care if the car came from america, japan or fu/ckin' pluto - i want a quality product for the price i pay - and with american cars, you don't get that.
- sh00k

Well.. you did make a mistake there. The H2 is about the biggest pos suv you could buy. The military hummer has its share of issues (like being impossible to work on in the fiel) if you talk to some motorpool guys. The H2 is in no way, shape or form a hummer, it is an suv made to look like one for the most part.

Regardless of whether or not I got the h2, escalade or denali = all these american trucks rust very quickly and within 5 years, they begin to have some serious problems as a result. if i had spent the same money on a mercedes g500 i would not be having this problem. and that's where the issue is. why can import car makers give you such a "quality" vehicle when for the same price, an american car gives you so much less? less reliability, more prone to rust, tons of electrical issues, etc.
- sh00k

^next time take a look underneath a gm truck. they have all these little stickers with barcodes that say "Made in China".

A couple of points of interest:

1. Unions -- many people are blaming current high wages demanded by unions for the demise of the US auto industry. But it's not wages, necessarily. Consider "legacy costs:"

http://www.facsnet.org/tools/biz_econ/detroit_auto.php

A major portion of the “legacy costs” are health care – providing health-care benefits to a growing population of retired employees. In 1999, GM had legacy costs per vehicle of $527; Ford’s legacy costs were $304. In 2003, those costs had risen to $928 and $619 respectively. Figures for Chrysler weren’t available.


Say what you will about how it's the unions that piled those costs onto the carmakers, I don't see how they can just blow them off now. It's a rock and a hard place, and eventually only bankruptcy will resolve (though hardly "solve") the problem.

Toyota etc can compete in the US, paying their US workers competetive wages, in large part because they don't have these legacy costs to bear.

If there were a fair solution, it would probably have to be (1) renegotiate all current union contracts to reduce future legacy costs for the industry and then (2) mandate through legislation that all auotomobile manufacturers in the US must share all existing legacy costs equally, regardless of who first incurred them, until they are paid down to some pre-set level (through attrition). This would of course never fly, diplomatically.

If the world economy is an organism, then what's happening is simply evolution in action. Intelligent design only works on the future.

2. US vs The World

Chrysler before DB was the least international of the Big Three. GM and Ford are major players internationally, and have been for decades, both as manufacturers and as retailers. These companies sell more than a third of their product outside of the US, and manufacture an even larger percentage overseas. Chrysler before the merger was far less of a presence in foreign markets, and thus far more vulnerable to the Japanese onslaught in the US.

The fact is, we don't need Chrysler. We'll still have a Big Three, and the new #3 (Toyota) will be making millions of cars in the US and employing thousands of US workers. They will also be making millions of cars and employing thousands of workers all over the world, just as Ford and GM do. There are "American" cars that are made in Mexico and contain less than 30% US-sourced parts. There are "Japanese" cars made in the US out of over 90% US parts. The whole idea of "American" cars and "American" car makers is becoming obsolete.

Evolution in action. It's not just replacement, it's survival of the fittest. The new top predators are badder than the old ones. What, did somebody think that Chrysler got *stronger* when they absorbed American Motors and Jeep?

R

The vast majority of American workers are not union, and I see prosperity all over the place. In the U.S. it costs automakers over $50/per hour in labor (wages, benefits, etc.) to build a car. In Japan it's around $22/hour, and in South Korea it's less than $5.00/hour. Why so much in America? Unions. They foster mediocrity, and protect bad workers, and are why so many companies are shipping manufacturing offshore.

I may be missing something here, but it sounds like your arguing that it's better for autoworkers to be paid somewhere between $5-$22 an hour...? Better for who? If you really beieve that autoworkers being paid less by any of the 'big3' would result in lower priced cars, or an improvement in the quality of product...Then I want to come live in your world of magical gingerbread houses and gumdrop candy mountains.

Ford is losing it's butt, yes. But they have openly stated that their losses were a planned part of their 'restructuring'. This 'restructuring' involves the largest auto parts manufacturing plant in the world- which opened 2 years ago in India. This 'restructuring' also involves massive auto assembly plants in China that have been tooling up and have had training from Ford for over 2 years now. Ford expects to have these things fully in production by the end of 2008. They have also openly stated that they fully expect to be profitable again by early 2009, and even claim that they will recover their losses by 2010! How will they recover billions and billions in 'planned' losses by 2010?
...By manufacturing cars at costs that are amazingly low, in other parts of the world- and then shipping them back and selling them at their normal price ranges. It's easy to imagine and project huge profits from a $23,000 car that cost you 1/4 of what it did to manufacture 3 years earlier.
The only problem I see for them is their market.... I wonder if anyone has questioned how to sell a car to a market that can no longer afford it? After all, the guy who used to make $50 an hour now makes between $5 and $22.

Yes, you did miss something. You missed that I DID NOT say that American autoworkers should makes between $5 and $22 per hour. It was a comparison to demonstrate the rediculous wages American autoworkers are paid. Is it not reasonable to assume that because the big 3 have to pay so much in wages, that they had to make it up in other areas such as lower quality materials? So who is to blame? Unions.

I understand the point of unions (to an extent) and wanting to keep jobs and all this stuff... but seriously, business is all about finding the way to do the best job (hopefully) possible for the smallest cost (why immigrant workers are "stealing" jobs... they work for lower wages. I'd hire them)... I don't know the current state of job positions at a factory, but it's the 21st century... sorry, barring tasks that NEED to be done by humans (and there are still plenty) most of the assembly can and should be done by robotic equipment. I'm sure by now it has to be much more reliable, cost efficient, and just overall a better choice.

Times change. You shouldn't get paid because of it.

whats really kinda funny is that if Ford files chapter 11 1st GM is going to be forced to follow. ford we be restructed and GM will be its bloated self and wont be able to compete.

Unions protect members from the rug getting swept out from under them by idiots running companies into the ground. Ford, GM, Chrysler - if they had their way, they would fire employees on the spot to keep themselves in the black.

Unions are people with families.

I find it disingenuous that the 'big three' failed to make a compelling product for over two decades and are now finding themselves lagging behind other companies and unions are to blame for their woes. Last I checked, unions aren't in charge of running the company and executives aren't unionized.

We wouldn't be having this discussion if people were buying American cars. They're not. When I bought my first Toyota (and even my fourth), I never said 'I want to stick it to those UAW guys in detroit' - I wanted a quality car for under 20k that will last more than five years, and looks nice. Could you get all three from an American manufactured car? No. And I'm pretty sure that a vast majority of foreign car buyers thought the same thing.

Blaming unions is a convenient way of not really addressing an ongoing problem with upper management. Here's a convenient example - the Ford family owns the Detroit Lions, whose GM is Matt Millen, recently rated the worst GM in all sports franchises. What does the Ford family do? Keep him. And extend his contract.

Not drawing a paycheck isn't a big deal either, as they have vested stock options. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs both only draw $1 a year from Microsoft and Apple, respectively. The Ford family isn't starving because of his decision.

All I'm saying is, the big three dug a hole, and now they're getting buried. And they have no one to blame but themselves.

If you guys are familiar with Bethlehem Steel, they were a HUGE steal producer during and after the wars. They went under because of unions.

The HQ building was 10 Stories tall. Each floor has 2 janitors who’s only job was to sweep the floor. They worked 8hr shifts, and there were two shifts. that’s 4 ppl to sweep ONE floor. 40 ppl to sweep the WHOLE building. each janitor was paid $20/hr (in 1985).

8hr X $20/hr = $160 PER DAY(7 days) = $800 per WEEK(52) - $41,600 PER YEAR x 40 workers = $1,664,000 a year to have the floors swept

My dad personally knew one of these guys, lets call him Joe. Joe worked for about 45min of his 8hr shift you werent aloud to sweep the other guys ½ of the floor or go to another floor to sweep, and you cant do anything other then sweep the floor. so he came in, swept his ½ then took a nap in the broom closet for the rest of the day. Needless to say Bethlehem Steel is no more, they couldn’t stay competitive with foreign steel because they had to pay some guy $20/hr to sleep in the broom closet.

GM/Ford has to pay some guy way to much to bolt up a tire or install and armrest so they have to use inferior materials. its only a matter of time until they crash.

I think this is a car forum, not a political one, but regardless if there were no unions around everyone would be making wal-mart wages and the CEOs of these corporations would pocket even more. The unions may be too powerful in some cases, but everyone deserves to be paid enough money to feed their families. and another thing... I thought American cars were way cheaper than Japanese and German ones. And GM and Ford have been developing some interesting stuff recently. Both have very interesting hybrid concepts.[/quote]

Yes Unions bring the good and the bad. But the problem is the greed that we all get as time goes on because we all want more in this country. I will admit I do too. The good thing is that Toyota is paying well more then walmart.

Also the Hybrid is a great thing for any company to bring to there comsumers but Ford is using Toyota's technogly for the Escape. Hybrid Concepts are great but how often have you seen a concept actully be in production. I would have to look it up again but I thought GM had a concept but doesn't have the batteries to run the system. I think I found it on www.Autobolg.com on the hybrid concepts.

And the unions help support the bad.

If forcing the company to pay more even while losing money, the company fails and EVERYONE loses thier jobs.. now whose families are eating??? The same idiots run the company, only now they go down the tubes faster. The union protects no one in that case. Again, it is short sighted mentality. But thats ok, cause upper mgmt already made thier money and the union still gets its protection money from the workers since they will probably get the same type of job somewhere else... so the CEO and the union are all that make out.

A.P. News
Detroit
3/9/07 17:26MST

Former GM and Ford CEOs Bob Lutz and Bill Ford Jr. were arrested today on a multitude of felonies relating to a plot to detonate explosives during an up coming meeting of 130,000 former UAW employees at a convention to be held, ironically at Fords Field, in downtown Detroit.

Spokespersons for Ford said that the plan to kill off 130,000 retired union workers would’ve been the first step in resolving the companies’ economic issues, and the first bold move they’re made since adopting said slogan. When confronted about the plan Bob Lutz responded by saying, “The plan was to assess blame on AL Qaeda for the attack, say that they pulled a surprise move, coming in through the Canadian Border from the SOUTH in Windsor. Who would have seen that coming, attacking from the south coming from Canada…Then we were to blame the Canadians. I got the idea watching an episode of SouthPark.”

Former Chrysler chair Lee Iacocca and while not being involved in it, he did admit in knowing of its plans stating, “We were really hoping they’d pull it off, then I was going to rat them out, but not until we were balls deep into an even more involved conflict in Kasmir and Iran. Then with them out of the picture I’d be the only one to make armored vehicles, and since the battle theatre is that beautiful oil utopia the Middle East I could even equip them with HEMIS, HEMIS say it say it…” Lee continued on after making me say HEMI 24 times with, “thinking about it too, I’d really cut down on US troop casualties. You see I have a few things that I think would really help out. First of all adding proper underbody armor adds a lot of weight to a vehicle and that really makes the gas mileage go to ____. Thus I’d add double the needed armor to the Durango based transporter. Secondly, if Ford is belly up who is to stop me from ripping off their designs? So the basis for an Excursion with a HEMI will finally be available. I’m planning on launching a ad campaign similar to that of the Neons campaign from when it launched. The only difference will be the print will say “Hi Mutha____er”.”
(At this point the reporter quietly snuck out of the room when Lee Iacocca ripped a chest patch out of his sweat laden button down shirt).
The FBI and homeland security have not decided whether or not to charge Iacocca for not coming forth with knowledge of the plot, but warn the public and automotive manufacturers to consider him very, very dangerous.

lol... what if huh?

that would be crazy..

but crazier things have been done by failing CEO's.

:rofl:

:shock: WOW!

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/09/aw-snap-chrysler-recalling-489-000-vehicles-for-various-problem/
In reference to unions being a "problem" they are there to protect workers rights and to make sure the American Auto Companies don't screw them over. Y don'ot the Japanese workers have unions? well u don't need a union if the company u work for treats u fairly.
But I do agree that the american unions go too far. they _____ about and whine about keeping the work here yet where does it go, to canada and mexico. so the american auto companies can't bring over models built n sold in other countries which have better styling and fit n finish because its not built in the "United States"(apparently they think canada and mexico are apart of our country).

If Ford brings their European models to the US they would sell some more models.

^absolutely. the euro spec focus has been the hottest hatch selling in europe. all we get stuck with is some slapped together made in mexico junk that only shares its name with the euro spec one. crappy slapped together econo box or quality made high-performance pocket rocket, any they wonder why we don't buy what they sell here.

My take on the non union countries and companies is that they reward performance, so poor or lazy workers dont last. In turn, you have a higher performing work force and better products, thus the company can take better care of the employees. This mentality has to be followed to be successful, from both sides of it. The unions overprotect and force overly high wages for a job. This hurts the company, and in turn the worker and economy. The companies have to realize the importance of taking care of the worker, and the worker has to know the importance of doing good work and earning thier keep. But forcing it through unions just band-aids the workers situation until the company fails.

If some of the european american models came here, I would really try to get my hands on them.

^agreed. if we didn't have the communist party known as the EPA here we could of had our hand on some of those killer diesel motors. at least gm is finally starting to bring over some of its better models. the holden commodore(pontiac g8 here) and with opel n saturn basically being the same thing now were finally going to get our hands on some of those better cars, although not the best of the foreign models.

My take on the non union countries and companies is that they reward performance, so poor or lazy workers dont last. In turn, you have a higher performing work force and better products, thus the company can take better care of the employees. This mentality has to be followed to be successful, from both sides of it. The unions overprotect and force overly high wages for a job. This hurts the company, and in turn the worker and economy. The companies have to realize the importance of taking care of the worker, and the worker has to know the importance of doing good work and earning thier keep. But forcing it through unions just band-aids the workers situation until the company fails.

True

It's a failed philosophy for american auto manufacturers. Because of them relying on their "legacy" of cars, they are focused too much on history then the future. Of course we would all love a corvetter or shelby, but they are not economical and practical vehicles. Also, american auto manufacturers still build vehicles that are not reliable. Toyota takes 2-3 years MINIMUM of testing, durability, research, development, et cetera before releasing a new model. American manufacturers; 1-2 years of testing, durability, research and development. It is not surprise resale value sucks on them, and long-lasting becomes a dream rather then a reality.

this is really last months news nothin new to me

Saw a similar discussion today on a sportbike forum I frequent. Harley sells an image the big 4 rice rockets sell a bike. Harley HAS improved in quality over the last decade but a HD for 30k still doesn't hold a candle to a Honda cruiser at 6k. It's sad that 'merican auto makers haven't learned that you need a variety of cars to choose from rather than 8 econo-models (of the same vehicle!), a couple sport models, 9823497823497823 SUVs and a truck or two.

I totally agree with engifneer. Unions have hurt the airline industry much in the same way they hurt the auto industry. Airlines have crazy amounts of cost, and selling tickets at $150 round trip.

I don't know the exact figures, but I've heard it costs Ford around $38/hr average in labor to produce a car, whereas Nissan can do it for around ~$30. That's a pretty big jump when you multiply by the hundreds of thousands of cars they make each year.

Way back in '95 my father worked for Nissan in Symrna, TN. He was paid $22/hr to work on the line (Good money back in '95), provided great benefits, and had a whole wellness center that Nissan built for the employees of the plant. It was far better than the conditions seen at the union shops in MI.

Unions had their time and place, and it's gone now.

about frickin time.

The UAW was around since 1935.

And, lest anyone here forget why these employees are paid so much, it's because it's under the principle of Fordism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fordism), or 'paying employees enough so they can buy the product that they make'.

Everyone here is acting like unions just showed up and screwed everything up.

Like anything and everything else, before southwest, jetblue, etc. airlines' main competition was Amtrak, which is currently on government handouts. I don't fly AA, nor United - I take Southwest for domestic flights because they're cheaper, by far.

Bethlehem Steel's upper management was pretty corrupt, which is why those steel mills are hulks of empty nothings. However, Bethlehem Steel, the corporation, is still open for business.

Again, it's convenient to blame workers for upper management's lack of foresight - but nothing lasts forever. When the tech bubble burst and thousands of companies went bankrupt, was it because of unions? Clearly no - just a lack of conservatism when it comes to financial planning. The companies that planned all along managed to weather the storm.

Same with car companies. Did Toyota or Honda get to where it is right now by producing crap vehicles for decades? No! They refined every vehicle, gave the consumers a choice and rewarded them with reliability.

What did American manufacturers do? Made a substandard product, banked on xenophobia to maximize their product, used planned obsolescence to force consumers to buy new cars every five years and several decades later they're hurting. Wow, who didn't see that one coming?

Like I said before, if Ford, GM, etc. had continued to make good, well built cars all these years, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Toyota did, Honda did, and now they're doing really well both domestically and internationally. In the case of Ford, GM, etc. it was too little, too late.

Seriously, outside of impractical sports cars, when have you looked at an american car and say 'I want that?' Likely not frequently, since Scions are economy cars (not built in the U.S. might I add).

Just wait til Changfeng goes on sale. Everyone made fun of Hyundai and the like. Well, here's another conpany that will proly get better over time. And eat away at America's crappy selection of automibiles.

wait what? How is this a bye-bye to anything American?

Chrysler stopped being part of the Big Three a long time ago, which is why people refer to it as the Big 2.5... DCX is half German; hardly American.

This isn't news! :)

Good point.

And those who know me and attend the SKA meets saw the JPC confidential files I had to keep with me when I resign to TMC that showed this happening in 2007. Interesting news, but well expected (planned)
Regards :eyebrow:

I just want to know... do some of you really not like any domestic models? It's all opinions no doubt, but I couldn't live in a world without at least the Mustang...

I just want to know... do some of you really not like any domestic models? It's all opinions no doubt, but I couldn't live in a world without at least the Mustang...

I actually looked at a mustang when I wanted a new car back in 05, the shift knob fell of in my hand and the back emblem was cracked!!! The interior material felt cheap. I gave them a chance at least… I also liked the Lincoln LS but it was over priced.

Lets not forget that Toyota and Honda both have plants in America that build cars so if we buy those cars we are buying American and supporting American workers too.

hell, the Lincoln LS at least has some British influence thanks to Jaguar. That car feels different than any normal Ford. Same thing with the GTO. Not a real American car. I mean, the Corvette is great and GM put it a good chassis. I can;t understand why id didn't sell well. I bet if it said Firebird on it, they would have sold craploads of them.

^ the problem with the gto not doing well as well as the chevy ssr not doing well was because they replace affordable models with expensive models. you could of gotten a firebird formula or a camaro z28 for about $23k with the base v8 and if you wanted more you can get a trans-am or an ss for about $32k. the gto was overpriced at $32k starting price and the ssr $40k(yea goin from a $23k camaro to a $40k crappy roadster truck hack job, and they wounder y it didn't do so well). going back to the gto, gm failed to bring back a retro design which was what the people wanted.
I have driven the new gto and it is one hell of a ride. I like the styling, the only thing I think they should have done was make a more retro style hood with the old style scoops and the hood tach like the old gtos, that would be a sufficient amount of retro design. also they should have made the 5.7 ls1 the base model for $26k and the $30k+ model would have a reworked 8.1 litre truck big block. that would have made a more attractive package, and as far as the ssr goes that thing should have never been built.

Yeah, ive driven the GTO alot and it is a very well put together machine. I wouldn't say it was overpriced though, considering you can't find a 400 hp car in the same price range. Its pretty much a corvette for close $20k less. Oh, and by the way, was it mentioned on here that Ford is officially selling Aston Martin? Jaguar will probly be up for sale soon also. Just a sign of the times.

silly rabbit...

minivans are for chicks...

minivans are for chicks...

My Dear Mr. Krispies13,

Bite me.

Warmest Regards,
RichC

I personally was always against the exclusivity mindset alot of people have regarding car makers. So nany people look at a brand or region and automatically put up a wall. Muscle-heads hating on imports, etc. I enjoy my share of muscle cars, euro cars, jap cars. If there is something about a particular car I like then thats what interests me.

So I have a question... if Ford sells/has sold Aston Martin... what will Bond drive in the next movie? I know he drives Aston Martin's but after seeing him in that Ford Mondeo at the beginning of the new movie it seemed obvious (as I guess it already was) that Ford is who has the contract with whoever produces the Bond movies... but I mean, they wouldn't really ruin something as great as that by keeping their contract and preventing Bond from driving his car... would they?

If thats the case they would just get a new contract with who ever takes on the Aston Martin line. Major production companies are rich, they can do those types of things. haha

I personally was always against the exclusivity mindset alot of people have regarding car makers. So nany people look at a brand or region and automatically put up a wall. Muscle-heads hating on imports, etc. I enjoy my share of muscle cars, euro cars, jap cars. If there is something about a particular car I like then thats what interests me.

speaking of muscleheads hating imports, I saw on ESPN that NASCAR is using a GT style wing on the cars. or at least testing them out. The new car designs make all the cars look like touring cars. I found that quite interesting. My friend said that maybe the cars will handle better and crash less cuz they will have more downforce. The Import haters have no right to laugh at big wings on Honda's anymore Cuz I saw big wings on the Camry, Impala and Charger! :rofl: But they did look cool. They even had slpitters on the front now.

Bond drives whatever Bond wants too. They went back to Aston Martin to bring back that classic bond vibe. He has driven Lotus and BMW in the past and I wouldn't be surprised if he goes back to one of them again.

Aston Maritn has a new owner so most likely Aston will keep doing what its doing untill new management starts adding its own flair. I mean Lamborgini had been bought by Audi/VW and look at them now. They had a transition period with the updated Diablo(refreshened styling and the AWD) before the current models came out. Lamborgingi is still in Italy, still has Italian designers, still hand built in Italy only thing now is that the top guys are now Audi/VW. Aston Martin doesn't want to lose its customers and the new owners I'm sure won't do a 360 with the company if they want to retain sales and owner loyalty.

True, but that wasn't my question... my question was, who has the actual contract? Ford or Aston Martin? 'Cause even if Aston Martin WANTS to be in the Bond movies... having your name on a Bond movie is worth a lot so as much as a lot of people would hate it I don't know if Ford would sell it...

lol yes we are gonna see Bond roll up in a Ford Focus with rockets that come out of those headlights.

If Toyota can build a high quality product in the US then why can't Americans do it? I agree that fighting the UAW and high wages is like fighting a war with one hand tied behind your back. The American auto makers need this shake up in order to realize that they can not compete by sell lower but by building a better product that people want to own. Sounds simple enough doesn't it?

If Toyota can build a high quality product in the US then why can't Americans do it? I agree that fighting the UAW and high wages is like fighting a war with one hand tied behind your back. The American auto makers need this shake up in order to realize that they can not compete by sell lower but by building a better product that people want to own. Sounds simple enough doesn't it?

You'd think. It seems a little unnerving that there are so many people that I know that are almost rooting for American companies to go under. I'm a proud new owner of a Scion Xb (traded in a Chrysler 300M that was a damn fine car for me) and I don't have any loyalty to the point of wanting many to lose their jobs. U.S. automakers will be fine so long as they understand that increases in gas prices dictate smaller, more efficient cars. That's something that import car makers have understood for a while. It's all cyclical, and U.S. car makers will eventually come back into favor.

Oh, and for the record, I'm a HUGE Corvette fanboy.

For years the american companies had been on top and they were the only ones. So they pretty much could have done whatever they wanted so they started using cheaper materials and the cars started rusting out after afew years and then u were forced to by a new car. Since the early 70s their quality has been goin down just about the time when toyota n honda came here. The americans saw the japanese as inferior little companies that will shrivil up in no time, so they continued to produce crap so their profits will rise. Toyota and Honda have been improving quality since they first came here and now they are some of the best cars u can buy. Hyundai is the same way their earlier products were crap and now look at how much they have improved, and they done this in about half the time it took the japanese to do it. Pretty soon we'll be seeing chinese cars here the will be just as good as any other car in half the time it took the koreans. If gm and the others didn't get so full of themselves they wouldn't be in the situation they are in today. They did it to themselves and I don't feel sorry for them at all. Has the american cars improved their quality in the last 5 years? Yes, but its not just that now they have to make up for 35 years of building crap and screwing former customers over and that's the hard part trying to win back former customer loyalty after selling them a peice of crap and then when they need warranty work done u thell them they're SOL.

still feel bad about ford struggling?

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/05/mulally-pockets-28-mil-while-ford-loses-12-bil/

It's interesting reading all of the comments about unions on here. I do think that unfortunately many (but not all) unions have gone astray from their original purpose.

I personally work for a theatrical union, and our particular local I feel tries to be fair. I really feel we try to be fair to the companies we work for, and make a distinction between sticking to our guns for decent wages, but also being sensitive to company financial crises.

Unfortunately not all other unions are as nice to be in. For that matter, not all of our sister locals in the same union play nice either. I don't think one can make a blanket statement that all unions are good or bad, because there's good and bad eggs in there. I do agree though, that the UAW is not doing well, and will end up killing themselves and the big 3.

The purpose of a union is to create better working conditions, improve wages, and get health care/retirement to workers. It's particularly of use to those of us who are "free lancers" in the theatre scene (we don't have a "normal" guaranteed 40 hour work week usually). They are intended to look out for the welfare of the employees, absolutely. Companies like Toyota have gotten an upper hand, I assume, because they pay decently (I assume so because I haven't exactly heard complaints all over the place) and don't mess with their employees. In cases like that, a union simply isn't necessary. If people are happy with their working conditions, or in some cases (read Wal-mart, Starbucks, etc here) are willing to put up with their employer even in crappy working conditions, then there isn't need for a union. Period. There are good reasons for a striking( bad working conditions) and dumb reasons for striking (the employer won't pay you $55 an hour instead of the $54.50 you're making now).

There has always been resistance from employers to unionization, and there have always been unionists who expect WAY too much from companies. The success or failure of a union and the company are rooted in their ability to play nice together. Too much friction will lead to failure for both.

I feel the UAW is becoming more of a burdon than a help for these workers. I support unions and what they do but to me the UAW is hurting these members instead of helping them. A good example of how bad some unions r gettin is that MTA strike here in New York last year. They had very good benefits but got greedy and striked and wound up screwing themselves. They were gettin free full medical coverage and after there little stunt now have to pay for it, what a bumch of dumba$$'s.

If the employer is offering good benefits and good working conditions then a presence for a union isn't necessary. Like now the UAW wants toyota to become part of there union. Why should they. They offer good paying jobs with benefits to their workers, and they r a successful company that will keep their employees employed for a long time especially with the announcement of wanting to build 5 more plants here the US. If the UAW got involved in Toyota then guaranteed they will end up like the Big3.

In response to Wal-mart I feel no sympathy for those employees. All I hear is of people complaining of how unfair the working conditions r and that they get no benefits and cr@appy pay. Well u don't have to work there, go find a job somewhere else. To get them to unionize u would either have to get people to not work there anymore or organize a nation wide strike, not a locational strike in order to get them to change. If u get people to not work there and not to shop there then the CEOs will have no choice but to unionize if they want to stay in business.

the problem the UAW causes is it gives workers no reason to try harder....if you know regardless of how hard you do or dont work your going to get a 5% raise next year...are you reeeaaally going to bust your ___ to do a good job? no your not. now...if your manager says, if you can keep the mistakes on your line under a certain amount then you will get a raise...you know your going to be double checking everything you do. The attitude of the UAW workers is that they are entitled to these wages regardless of performance and that’s not right.

If I was the head of GM/Ford come contract negation time (this summer I think) I would walk in and say we cant afford to pay you $40/h to screw in a glove box, we need to cut wages for that job down to $15/h….if the union says no, and they will. Then let them strike and hire ppl that are willing to work at those wages. The job isn’t rocket science, there are plenty of other ppl that can do that job. This is only going to end one way…auto production in the US is going to stop totaly. They are going to move even more production to Canada or Mexico (or china) and then the workers are going to be ____ out of luck because of there own greed and disregard for the company that actually signs there checks…