New Stage 0 Topic

[Kumitsu]

Before i get told to search, i have already done that and i have gone through a few stage 0 topics and have followed up on some.

But aside from that i wannet to start a new topic due to those people who are confused on why people are having some issues with the ZPI Stage 0. I for myself would like to know why are people running into some problems and why others are not.

I have talked to some people about going Turbo without the IC, and everybody says its a bad idea, even at 6PSI, but ZPI says its safe and i wont need it with their Stage 0. I would like some input on this from people who own the stage 0.

Also post here the problems you have gone through with your stage 0 installations before and after.

[318_tC]

I think most problems have been caused by user error on the install

[Kumitsu]

It would be kool to get some input from owners so we can get informed on what to expect and what to get ahead of time.

[318_tC]

to be honest its been covered up and down

[peteyd]

Kumitsu wrote: Before i get told to search, i have already done that and i have gone through a few stage 0 topics and have followed up on some.

But aside from that i wannet to start a new topic due to those people who are confused on why people are having some issues with the ZPI Stage 0. I for myself would like to know why are people running into some problems and why others are not.

I have talked to some people about going Turbo without the IC, and everybody says its a bad idea, even at 6PSI, but ZPI says its safe and i wont need it with their Stage 0. I would like some input on this from people who own the stage 0.

Also post here the problems you have gone through with your stage 0 installations before and after.


Its not recommended. But it can be done the greddy kit is supposed to be released with out a fmic. So it can be done but its not recommended, im running the prototype 0 with fmic on an a/t. The main problems is running rich but kenny told me they are setup to be like that. So just tune and you will be fine, also the fmic piping is pushing my transmission lines foward so the radiator fans hit the lines. So i gotta figure out how to re run the lines so it doesnt happend. Other then that its been good.

[Kumitsu]

Kumitsu wrote: Its not recommended. But it can be done the greddy kit is supposed to be released with out a fmic. So it can be done but its not recommended, im running the prototype 0 with fmic on an a/t. The main problems is running rich but kenny told me they are setup to be like that. So just tune and you will be fine, also the fmic piping is pushing my transmission lines foward so the radiator fans hit the lines. So i gotta figure out how to re run the lines so it doesnt happend. Other then that its been good.

Do you have the E-manage ? besides the kit what else did you have to buy to have it running good without problems ?

[peteyd]

Kumitsu wrote: Kumitsu wrote: Its not recommended. But it can be done the greddy kit is supposed to be released with out a fmic. So it can be done but its not recommended, im running the prototype 0 with fmic on an a/t. The main problems is running rich but kenny told me they are setup to be like that. So just tune and you will be fine, also the fmic piping is pushing my transmission lines foward so the radiator fans hit the lines. So i gotta figure out how to re run the lines so it doesnt happend. Other then that its been good.

Do you have the E-manage ? besides the kit what else did you have to buy to have it running good without problems ?

emanage is getting done tomorrow hopefully. I had to get new gasekts other then that it was pretty complete.

[sleepermod]

Kumitsu,

The reason for the FMIC is to cool the charged air forced into the intake plenum and to the 4 chambers. The key word here is LOWER intake temps post-turbo. FMIC is mechanically the easiest solution and works great during constant driving but the cons is that there will be more plumbing work to be done and due to the engine movement, the tubings may knock or rub against the other engine components (as described by peteyd). What if the clamps gets loosen because of movement? Another worry :pray: The longer the tubings, I lose boost. So to compensate, I tweak the boost to 7psi as 1psi would be lost through the FMIC setup, result would be 6psi to the intake plenum. Another worry :pray: Heat is retained by the tubing route.

In my coming Stage 0 setting, I'll be using water/alky injection to replace the FMIC (even in future when internals are upgraded + auto tranny upgraded).

Pros:
No loss in boost (What U boost is what U get)
Able to run more advance timing w/o fear of detonation/knock
Able to extract the most power from the kit (as above-advance timing)
Equal cooler charge distribution to 4 chambers (achievable - at least better than FMIC)
Steam generated cleans the carbon built up on the piston crowns + cylinder walls + spark plugs
Mixture spray fully adjustable from 2psi start to 30psi hold limit
No knocking/rubbing of FMIC parts against engine bay, cause there ain't none
Looks more professional and neater in the engine bay, nice braggin' rights
The TOTAL SLEEPER look is achieved, the coppers will never know :rofl:

Cons:
More work to be done (Drilling holes at intake charge pipe and tapping washer tank)
Requires a MAP sensor to feed boost signal to the controller
Requires more electrical splicing
Requires a seperate water tank (not needed if tapped into the washer tank)
Requires monitoring and refill of the Alky/Water/Methanol mixture (more maintenance cost in the long run)
Careful installation to avoid nozzle being loose and sucked into the intake plenum :nails:
Requires monitoring of the water pump. If it malfunctions, U can't boost to whatever you're set at and need to stop driving and rectify the water injection 1st

I hope the above answers your questions and addresses your worries. IMHO, water injection setup is the best for cooling intake charge temps (depending on the mixture used) and will be far more effective than FMIC w/o the mess and obvious IC perched infront :P

Cheers :clap:

[Kumitsu]

sleepermod wrote: Kumitsu,

The reason for the FMIC is to cool the charged air forced into the intake plenum and to the 4 chambers. The key word here is LOWER intake temps post-turbo. FMIC is mechanically the easiest solution and works great during constant driving but the cons is that there will be more plumbing work to be done and due to the engine movement, the tubings may knock or rub against the other engine components (as described by peteyd). What if the clamps gets loosen because of movement? Another worry :pray: The longer the tubings, I lose boost. So to compensate, I tweak the boost to 7psi as 1psi would be lost through the FMIC setup, result would be 6psi to the intake plenum. Another worry :pray: Heat is retained by the tubing route.

In my coming Stage 0 setting, I'll be using water/alky injection to replace the FMIC (even in future when internals are upgraded + auto tranny upgraded).

Pros:
No loss in boost (What U boost is what U get)
Able to run more advance timing w/o fear of detonation/knock
Able to extract the most power from the kit (as above-advance timing)
Equal cooler charge distribution to 4 chambers (achievable - at least better than FMIC)
Steam generated cleans the carbon built up on the piston crowns + cylinder walls + spark plugs
Mixture spray fully adjustable from 2psi start to 30psi hold limit
No knocking/rubbing of FMIC parts against engine bay, cause there ain't none
Looks more professional and neater in the engine bay, nice braggin' rights
The TOTAL SLEEPER look is achieved, the coppers will never know :rofl:

Cons:
More work to be done (Drilling holes at intake charge pipe and tapping washer tank)
Requires a MAP sensor to feed boost signal to the controller
Requires more electrical splicing
Requires a seperate water tank (not needed if tapped into the washer tank)
Requires monitoring and refill of the Alky/Water/Methanol mixture (more maintenance cost in the long run)
Careful installation to avoid nozzle being loose and sucked into the intake plenum :nails:
Requires monitoring of the water pump. If it malfunctions, U can't boost to whatever you're set at and need to stop driving and rectify the water injection 1st

I hope the above answers your questions and addresses your worries. IMHO, water injection setup is the best for cooling intake charge temps (depending on the mixture used) and will be far more effective than FMIC w/o the mess and obvious IC perched infront :P

Cheers :clap:


I'll be ordering it soon with the PnP and E-manage just to get that out of the way.

Thanks for the reply's

[ERIC-TC]

Why go the injection route? How long can you go until you need to refll the cooling solution? Why not go with a water-to-air intercooler? Not as flashy as FMIC but it gets the job done and still looks clean.

[retrodrive]

FIMC is still the best and most problem-free way to go. If it rubs against something it is either a crappy design or install. Besides, the psi drop is not significant. How do I know? I run 24psi on 91octain on my lexus making 500+rwhp daily driving on methanol injection...not worth it unless you run higher boost on crappy gas.

[sleepermod]

Yes, I do agree with the PWR A/W solution but its pricey :nails: $1+ grand or more (including labour) vs $300-$400 WI kit (average price depending on setup). Of course it has both form and function. :clap: I did use a WI kit (twin nozzle) on my last ride, a 300ZX TT auto and a 2 quart tank lasted me approx. 300-350 miles and that was with 50% hard drivin' :love:

Like I said, the FMIC being pure hardware is the easiest solution mechanically and maintenance free (at least when compared to WI). As for retrodrive, I take it that you do have a WI setup but are having some problems with it? When you are cramming 24psi worth of air or about 1000cfm? through your FMIC, sure there would hardly be much drop in pressure as the high velocity travelling through the cooler louver rows would negate any drop, even if there was, it would be negligible :|

Is it possible to just rely on the FMIC and w/o your methanol mixture if you wanted to maintain 24psi on 91 RON? :question: There's a reason for your setup. My guess are issues like milking max power from your custom kit + providing a margin of safety because of possible detonation at that kind of boost :nails:

Not to go off thread here, but just reminding ourselves with Kumitsu's concern. ie. Why isn't there any form of cooling for the Stage 0 kit? Is it safe to go w/o one? and to add one more criteria..... I want to go sleeper w/o the IC showing :lalala: So what would be the magic formula to address the above :question: I can't think of any except WI and A-W setups :wink:

I merely explained that I believed in WI and stated the pros and cons because I intend to use it when my Stage 0 arrives. 8)

[Kumitsu]

We could use some input from people running the stage 0 without IC.

[rhythmnsmoke]

PM ScionDad...he was running non-cooled Stage 0 before anyone.

[retrodrive]

I run stage 0 without IC. The charge pipe heats up a lot and I do think that intercooler would make it better. The kit works very well for me though. The only problem I had was the wastegate gasket. ZPI sent me their copper one though.

About the methanol injection. You can't run 24 PSI on a 91octane; in fact anything over 16psi is really pushing it. I am cheap though and I don't want to buy race gas all the time. Besides it is not avaliable everywhere. Methanol allows me running higher boost for cheaper. I had absolutely no problems with it but I can't seem to relax driving my car. If something in my methanol injection setup goes out and I still run my 24 PSI without knowing, my expensive-butt motor goes boom. The moral is that any kind of injection system need failsafes (gauges, warning leds on every component etc.). It also needs refill and it gets annoying sometimes. Otherwise all good.

[Kumitsu]

retrodrive wrote: I run stage 0 without IC. The charge pipe heats up a lot and I do think that intercooler would make it better. The kit works very well for me though. The only problem I had was the wastegate gasket. ZPI sent me their copper one though.

About the methanol injection. You can't run 24 PSI on a 91octane; in fact anything over 16psi is really pushing it. I am cheap though and I don't want to buy race gas all the time. Besides it is not avaliable everywhere. Methanol allows me running higher boost for cheaper. I had absolutely no problems with it but I can't seem to relax driving my car. If something in my methanol injection setup goes out and I still run my 24 PSI without knowing, my expensive-butt motor goes boom. The moral is that any kind of injection system need failsafes (gauges, warning leds on every component etc.). It also needs refill and it gets annoying sometimes. Otherwise all good.


Hey retro do you have any pictures on what this charge pipe looks like? (im not really familiar much on turbos or engines.)

Thanks,

[retrodrive]

The shiny one that goes from the turbo to engine and has blow off valve on it.

[Kumitsu]

retrodrive wrote:

The shiny one that goes from the turbo to engine and has blow off valve on it.

What Blow off valve is the one that you are currently using ?

is it loud and noticable in the streets ?

[ERIC-TC]

I still can't picture it. Is the methanol injection system on all the time? Is it boost sensitive? Methanol cost me about $10 a gallon unless you buy the big VP 5-gallon jug. How do you hook it up.

Do you use the methanol to help the FMIC or the Water intercooler, or does it replace them completely?

[retrodrive]

I am using Tial, the one that came with the kit. It is loud and you can't make it quiet. If you want something quiet, I would get HKS SSQV and re-route it.