Need experts opinion on the clutch.
06-24-2014, 08:18 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 4
Need experts opinion on the clutch.
Will begin with saying that im not an expert, i would rate my lvl of knowledge as a newb with ability to think.
Also, English is my 3rd language so feel free to bash me if something doesnt make sense till it makes sense to you.
I drive 2007 tc with 80000 miles on it, all stock + cai, and i had this car since it was 32000 miles old. My driving habit ranges anywhere between trying to get the smoothest shifts and most mpg, to making it scream at 125mph on the highway. Never seen track, all city and interstate driving.
Since i got this car, i never had any issues with shifting besides going into to the reverse, sometimes i would have to do double clutching in order to avoid grinding noise.
About 15000 miles ago 5th gear started to act funky. Sometimes it would grind and resist to shift into 5th when rpm's are above 2500. This was especially noticeable when getting on the highway. Sometime it would be perfectly fine for a whole week of driving. Never had this issue while driving in the city or keeping it below 2500 though.
Somewhere around 1000 miles ago i started noticing a slight lag in acceleration when in 2nd and 3rd gear, it felt like a throttle body was filled with gunk and was taking its sweet time with responding.
No signs of a clutch slip, or any other shifting related issues.
-Now this is where fun started:
About a week ago on the way home while accelerating at the green light, in 2nd gear i felt that 'lag' again, and right after it i felt like the car stopped accelerating for about a sec and then picked up its speed. I never felt a clutch slip before, but i am very confident that it was a clutch slip.
After that i immediately parked the car and did not touch it for next 7 hours.
7 hours later i get in the car for a drive, and im having a difficulty with getting into 1st gear. Once in 1st gear, i started to hear a sound of a hydraulic pump. I popped it in neutral and sound dissipated. Forced it into the 1st again, and that sound of a hydraulic pump appeared again.
Car had no difficulties with taking off, but it developed a 'rubbing' sounds like a metal over metal. About 300 meters later i had to really muscle it into the 3rd and hope that it would make it back.
Luckily car mad it back.
Once parked i held the brake and released the clutch to see if it would slip, and it was slipping like there was nothing left from that clutch.
So, few days later i received a new clutch from exedy, jack up the car, take the trany off (if you plan on doing it yourself, i advice to get a friend) and ready to replace that clutch. To my surprise i did not see what i expected to see in there. Based on the symptoms that i experienced i expected to see nothing but potato peels left from that old stock clutch. That wasn't the case. That stock clutch is in a decent shape, and it looks like i can put another 80000 miles on it. Metal frame on that clutch on other hand is cracked on both sides, one of the springs is broken and plastic that held that broken spring snapped too. Red dust is present. Bearing looks like it needs some good lubrication.
Once again im not an expert, and im a having a difficult time connecting my symptoms with wear that i see on this clutch. What do ya think caused such wear and tear ? I would hate to put a new clutch in there just to see same thing happen to it as to the old one.
Also, English is my 3rd language so feel free to bash me if something doesnt make sense till it makes sense to you.
I drive 2007 tc with 80000 miles on it, all stock + cai, and i had this car since it was 32000 miles old. My driving habit ranges anywhere between trying to get the smoothest shifts and most mpg, to making it scream at 125mph on the highway. Never seen track, all city and interstate driving.
Since i got this car, i never had any issues with shifting besides going into to the reverse, sometimes i would have to do double clutching in order to avoid grinding noise.
About 15000 miles ago 5th gear started to act funky. Sometimes it would grind and resist to shift into 5th when rpm's are above 2500. This was especially noticeable when getting on the highway. Sometime it would be perfectly fine for a whole week of driving. Never had this issue while driving in the city or keeping it below 2500 though.
Somewhere around 1000 miles ago i started noticing a slight lag in acceleration when in 2nd and 3rd gear, it felt like a throttle body was filled with gunk and was taking its sweet time with responding.
No signs of a clutch slip, or any other shifting related issues.
-Now this is where fun started:
About a week ago on the way home while accelerating at the green light, in 2nd gear i felt that 'lag' again, and right after it i felt like the car stopped accelerating for about a sec and then picked up its speed. I never felt a clutch slip before, but i am very confident that it was a clutch slip.
After that i immediately parked the car and did not touch it for next 7 hours.
7 hours later i get in the car for a drive, and im having a difficulty with getting into 1st gear. Once in 1st gear, i started to hear a sound of a hydraulic pump. I popped it in neutral and sound dissipated. Forced it into the 1st again, and that sound of a hydraulic pump appeared again.
Car had no difficulties with taking off, but it developed a 'rubbing' sounds like a metal over metal. About 300 meters later i had to really muscle it into the 3rd and hope that it would make it back.
Luckily car mad it back.
Once parked i held the brake and released the clutch to see if it would slip, and it was slipping like there was nothing left from that clutch.
So, few days later i received a new clutch from exedy, jack up the car, take the trany off (if you plan on doing it yourself, i advice to get a friend) and ready to replace that clutch. To my surprise i did not see what i expected to see in there. Based on the symptoms that i experienced i expected to see nothing but potato peels left from that old stock clutch. That wasn't the case. That stock clutch is in a decent shape, and it looks like i can put another 80000 miles on it. Metal frame on that clutch on other hand is cracked on both sides, one of the springs is broken and plastic that held that broken spring snapped too. Red dust is present. Bearing looks like it needs some good lubrication.
Once again im not an expert, and im a having a difficult time connecting my symptoms with wear that i see on this clutch. What do ya think caused such wear and tear ? I would hate to put a new clutch in there just to see same thing happen to it as to the old one.
06-26-2014, 02:32 AM
#2
Almost looks like clutch was operating on dried lube at the spline with added heat due to friction when you forced it into gears. Since spring holders were cracked, it probably caused the tough engagement. I'm surprised that it didn't blow up on you like that. Luck if your trans is all okay. May want to check the gears and syncros before calling it a day. Can't really help much more than that.
06-26-2014, 05:02 PM
#3
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Scikotics
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 9,731
If the clutch was slipping, RPM would increase but the car would not accelerate. That does not sound like your issue. Sounds like you have two issues going on
1) Possible issues with the synchros in the tranny. In that case, it will be very hard to put into gear while the car is moving (I bet if you are sitting still and push in the clutch you can put the car into any gear more easily than while moving).
Alternatively, if the clutch is not disengaging properly, it will be hard to shift. If the throwout bearing or clutch fork is binding up, then it is possible that the clutch is not fully releasing, making it hard to shift. Possible based upon the pictures. Normally in this case, since it is only partially disengaged, if you are sitting still idling and push in the clutch and shift into gear, you will feel the car try to move a bit.
2) Acceleration issues are more likely fuel, air or spark related. Again, unless you see the RPM increasing but the car not speeding up, in which case the clutch would be the issue.
1) Possible issues with the synchros in the tranny. In that case, it will be very hard to put into gear while the car is moving (I bet if you are sitting still and push in the clutch you can put the car into any gear more easily than while moving).
Alternatively, if the clutch is not disengaging properly, it will be hard to shift. If the throwout bearing or clutch fork is binding up, then it is possible that the clutch is not fully releasing, making it hard to shift. Possible based upon the pictures. Normally in this case, since it is only partially disengaged, if you are sitting still idling and push in the clutch and shift into gear, you will feel the car try to move a bit.
2) Acceleration issues are more likely fuel, air or spark related. Again, unless you see the RPM increasing but the car not speeding up, in which case the clutch would be the issue.
07-09-2014, 02:55 AM
#4
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 4
I completely forgot to follow up on this thing.
So i swapped the clutch for a new one (what an adventure), and issues are gone. Difference in shifting is day and night. Clutch pedal action is smooth and light as a butter compare to the old one.
Despite all this, i believe that problem still exist (even though i dont feel anything), and i fear that both of you are correct - its something in the transmission. There is just no reason for a stock clutch on a stock car to look so damaged.
So since i had issues with getting into 5th gear above 2500 rps, sounds like a synchros issue.
Car never tried to move or showed any signs like it wanted to move when i shifted into the gear. In the same time i did notice that when i was sitting still idling and push in the clutch and shift into gear, AND use little bit of force to move shifter **** further up in the 1st while not releasing the clutch pedal, car would actually start to move.
So far its all i have.
New clutch has 300 miles on it, no issues, still breaking in and adjusting.
My budget is very limited, so i guess the best thing i can do is drive and see where it goes from here.
So i swapped the clutch for a new one (what an adventure), and issues are gone. Difference in shifting is day and night. Clutch pedal action is smooth and light as a butter compare to the old one.
Despite all this, i believe that problem still exist (even though i dont feel anything), and i fear that both of you are correct - its something in the transmission. There is just no reason for a stock clutch on a stock car to look so damaged.
1) Possible issues with the synchros in the tranny. In that case, it will be very hard to put into gear while the car is moving (I bet if you are sitting still and push in the clutch you can put the car into any gear more easily than while moving).
Alternatively, if the clutch is not disengaging properly, it will be hard to shift. If the throwout bearing or clutch fork is binding up, then it is possible that the clutch is not fully releasing, making it hard to shift. Possible based upon the pictures. Normally in this case, since it is only partially disengaged, if you are sitting still idling and push in the clutch and shift into gear, you will feel the car try to move a bit.
Alternatively, if the clutch is not disengaging properly, it will be hard to shift. If the throwout bearing or clutch fork is binding up, then it is possible that the clutch is not fully releasing, making it hard to shift. Possible based upon the pictures. Normally in this case, since it is only partially disengaged, if you are sitting still idling and push in the clutch and shift into gear, you will feel the car try to move a bit.
Car never tried to move or showed any signs like it wanted to move when i shifted into the gear. In the same time i did notice that when i was sitting still idling and push in the clutch and shift into gear, AND use little bit of force to move shifter **** further up in the 1st while not releasing the clutch pedal, car would actually start to move.
So far its all i have.
New clutch has 300 miles on it, no issues, still breaking in and adjusting.
My budget is very limited, so i guess the best thing i can do is drive and see where it goes from here.
07-09-2014, 06:38 PM
#5
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 121
I seen this before on 2 cars, one was a 93 Tercel and the other was a Saturn SC2. In the case of the Tercel the Clutch master cyl bolts had loosened under the dash and when the pedal was pushed the cylinder was being pushed forward not letting it fully engage.
The Saturn SC2 was the right side top motor mount was wore out and thus causing the engine to slightly drop causing it to bind when trying to shift gears.
In both cases, I assumed it was the clutch going bad and bought the replacement parts. Replacing the parts helped for awhile then it all started happening again, that's when I had to look further to find the actual problems. Once the motor mounts on the Saturn and master cylinder on the Tercel were fixed, I never had another problem shifting the transmissions.
The Saturn SC2 was the right side top motor mount was wore out and thus causing the engine to slightly drop causing it to bind when trying to shift gears.
In both cases, I assumed it was the clutch going bad and bought the replacement parts. Replacing the parts helped for awhile then it all started happening again, that's when I had to look further to find the actual problems. Once the motor mounts on the Saturn and master cylinder on the Tercel were fixed, I never had another problem shifting the transmissions.
07-15-2014, 10:35 PM
#6
When my motor mount was loose, it would be very hard to shift into gear when I would beat on it. The motor was torquing so much between shifts the gears wouldnt line up. When you put the trans back in, you may have tightened the culprit down. If the issue suddenly comes back after spanking on it that is probably what is happening. Just a guess.
07-21-2014, 06:16 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 4
Wow would never think that engine mount would mean so much. Transmission is bolted to the engine so strong, that its hard to believe that there would be any bending, yet its all aluminum + heat so i guess anything is possible.
Update on the clutch:
Im starting to feel symptoms of clutch not disengaging properly that engifineer described. Basically when im sitting still idling and push in the clutch and shift into gear, i will feel the car try to move a bit, and its resisting to shift a little.
Im guessing hydraulic pump or one of the engine/trans mounts.
Anyone had any experience with their pump going bad ?
Update on the clutch:
Im starting to feel symptoms of clutch not disengaging properly that engifineer described. Basically when im sitting still idling and push in the clutch and shift into gear, i will feel the car try to move a bit, and its resisting to shift a little.
Im guessing hydraulic pump or one of the engine/trans mounts.
Anyone had any experience with their pump going bad ?
07-22-2014, 02:06 PM
#8
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 121
D0 you mean the slave Cylinder when you say Hyd Pump? Generally if the slave is going bad, when you push on the pedal, the piston on the slave does not fully extend causing it not to be able to fully move the throw out bearing, causing grinding and hard shifts. But before you can say the slave is the culprit, you really should make sure that the master isn't leaking internally.
07-23-2014, 02:22 AM
#9
I've had my clutch master go out twice because the clamp force on my clutch was too much. Toyota made crappy masters and slaves for the 2AZ. I've switched to the ACT clutch now, which has a lot less clamp force than my previous Comp Clutch Stage 4. Let's hope it doesn't blow out again.
Check under the dash, around the pedal for leaking oil. If you have oil, then the seal is going. If the clutch drops to the floor when you press it, and doesn't come back up, your master is shot. Replace it ASAP!!! If you have an upgraded clutch, it may be the culprit to why the master blew. It'll likely happen again if you don't change out the clutch to something softer.
Check under the dash, around the pedal for leaking oil. If you have oil, then the seal is going. If the clutch drops to the floor when you press it, and doesn't come back up, your master is shot. Replace it ASAP!!! If you have an upgraded clutch, it may be the culprit to why the master blew. It'll likely happen again if you don't change out the clutch to something softer.
07-23-2014, 11:02 PM
#10
I've had my clutch master go out twice because the clamp force on my clutch was too much. Toyota made crappy masters and slaves for the 2AZ. I've switched to the ACT clutch now, which has a lot less clamp force than my previous Comp Clutch Stage 4. Let's hope it doesn't blow out again.
Check under the dash, around the pedal for leaking oil. If you have oil, then the seal is going. If the clutch drops to the floor when you press it, and doesn't come back up, your master is shot. Replace it ASAP!!! If you have an upgraded clutch, it may be the culprit to why the master blew. It'll likely happen again if you don't change out the clutch to something softer.
Check under the dash, around the pedal for leaking oil. If you have oil, then the seal is going. If the clutch drops to the floor when you press it, and doesn't come back up, your master is shot. Replace it ASAP!!! If you have an upgraded clutch, it may be the culprit to why the master blew. It'll likely happen again if you don't change out the clutch to something softer.
07-27-2014, 01:00 AM
#11
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Posts: 4
D0 you mean the slave Cylinder when you say Hyd Pump? Generally if the slave is going bad, when you push on the pedal, the piston on the slave does not fully extend causing it not to be able to fully move the throw out bearing, causing grinding and hard shifts. But before you can say the slave is the culprit, you really should make sure that the master isn't leaking internally.
So far i checked under the dash for any oil leaks - none.
Checked master for any leaks- none.
Checked slave for any leaks- none.
Checked the lines for any leaks- none.
Clutch pedal goes down, and comes back up with force just like it should be (unless there is a spring that brings the pedal back to the starting position, in which case i will disconnect it and give it another try sometime this week)
I dont have a stage 2 or 10 or any of that fancy racing stuff, my car is fully stock with a new exedy oem clutch.
Problem is still the same which is when im sitting still idling and push in the clutch and shift into gear, i will feel the car try to move a bit, and its resisting to shift. There is no resistance once the car is rolling.
Is it possible for the master or slave cylinder to go bad/out without any leaks ?
07-28-2014, 02:28 PM
#12
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Is it possible for the master or slave cylinder to go bad/out without any leaks ?
Yes, it could be leaking internally bypassing the O-rings on the master cylinder. and as said before, make sure you check all the motor mounts real well in case you have a weak one the could be causing the engine and trans to have a small bind. You could also try re-bleeding the master / Slave cylinder. If you get good pedal then it goes back to hard engagement, it's probably a bad master / slave cylinder.
Yes, it could be leaking internally bypassing the O-rings on the master cylinder. and as said before, make sure you check all the motor mounts real well in case you have a weak one the could be causing the engine and trans to have a small bind. You could also try re-bleeding the master / Slave cylinder. If you get good pedal then it goes back to hard engagement, it's probably a bad master / slave cylinder.
07-28-2014, 06:02 PM
#13
Is it possible for the master or slave cylinder to go bad/out without any leaks ?
Yes, it could be leaking internally bypassing the O-rings on the master cylinder. and as said before, make sure you check all the motor mounts real well in case you have a weak one the could be causing the engine and trans to have a small bind. You could also try re-bleeding the master / Slave cylinder. If you get good pedal then it goes back to hard engagement, it's probably a bad master / slave cylinder.
Yes, it could be leaking internally bypassing the O-rings on the master cylinder. and as said before, make sure you check all the motor mounts real well in case you have a weak one the could be causing the engine and trans to have a small bind. You could also try re-bleeding the master / Slave cylinder. If you get good pedal then it goes back to hard engagement, it's probably a bad master / slave cylinder.
08-08-2014, 09:08 AM
#14
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 50
Sounds like a beat up pilot bearing... Did you replace the pilot bearing while doing the clutch? I've been a member on Supraforums for over a decade and have experienced this issue several times on different Supras. If the pilot bearing is a turd, all the symptoms you're describing would be present.
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