a REAL project
01-27-2008, 08:25 AM
#1
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a REAL project
i'm gona take a guess that within the next... oh say.. 2 to 3 months... i'm buying a ST185 2nd Gen 3SGTE+ECU+Harness+Tranny+AWD transfer case package and cleaning/building it up slightly for 350hp/350lbs torque reliable. while i'm doing that i'm going to get one REALLY wrecked xB that has a healthy front end and using it as my lab-rat station to fit and mount the 3SGTE and prepare for AWD power.
first - remake the exhaust and intake manifolds to go over to the right side of the settup just above the tranny to less'n the highth of the engine and take away some of it's bulky'ness.
second - fabricate new alternator brackets to house 2 alternators *for my own reasons* to house dual Iraggi alternators.
third - massage or trim and reinforce the firewall between 2 and 4 inches deeper into the dash to accomodate the bigger all togethere power plant.
fourth - adjust and modify the subframe to house the new powerplant and hydrolic clutch style transmission *simular work that would be done to swap the C60 tranny with additional steps.*
fith - still in the works, looking for a company that can replace the stock engine sleeves with dirrect replacements made of T304 or T316L grade stainless steele *preferably T316L grade stainless, again, for my own reasons. engine longevity and reliability skyrockets with the additional strengthening to handle higher power goals if wanted/needed. this engine is also a lab-test engine at the same time with hydrogen fuels which thus calls or protection agenst water abuse.*
sixth - finish the complete install WITH the all wheel drive transfer case in place and ready for use. in the mean while of working on the rear end suspension and drivetrain sytem and getting it ready for installation to the front on the actual running xB. the engine swap and project will remain in front wheel drive with the tranfers case in place WITHOUT the rear until the rear settup is done.
summry - the point behind this, using a wrecked xB or two to fit the settup and get around any and all problems before hand and make it perfect so that when the install is to be done on the actual xB it's going on will be a sinch and a quick job without hassel.
regardless of what anyone out there or anyone here who says this wont work, this is not just a simple swap. i did clearly state the modifications needed plus there may be more through doing the actual project. the 3SGTE IS a big engine but only because of it's settup using the turbo. custom exhaust and intake manifolds will fix ALOT of this problem. the rest of it is mainly because the exhaust is in the front and theintake is on the back which does make perfect for turbo'ed applications... it becomes a pain in the butt with projects like this. im sure i'll hit many road blocks that i'll have to get around but i'm willing to deal with it and fight through this. my goal is to sit around 350hp and torque at the wheels using a 2nd Gen 3SGTE or AKA a ST185 settup. this power range will be really great and will make the xB hall ___ down the road whilest still being reliable. aprox curb weight after the job is fully complete, inclueding the AWD being finished, should be around 2,600-2,700lbs. yes, it's heavier but it's because of the 3SGTE mainly while the AWD system is only adding 170lbs, the 3SGTE is a HEAVY engine compared to others but is a beast because of it. but 350hp and torque on 2,600-2,700lbs with AWD will be pretty freakin fast for the xB plus if it's not enough the 2nd gen 3SGTE ST185 full system is fully reliable mechanicly up until the 650hp and torque range so if it's not enough power, theres LOTS of room to work with.
Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmmmm Turbo'y
i can get the whole package combo for about $1,300 and then i can start the project. it's gona take a couple months or so before i can actualy start. not sure if the appartment manager would like a engine hanging around in one of thier units...
first - remake the exhaust and intake manifolds to go over to the right side of the settup just above the tranny to less'n the highth of the engine and take away some of it's bulky'ness.
second - fabricate new alternator brackets to house 2 alternators *for my own reasons* to house dual Iraggi alternators.
third - massage or trim and reinforce the firewall between 2 and 4 inches deeper into the dash to accomodate the bigger all togethere power plant.
fourth - adjust and modify the subframe to house the new powerplant and hydrolic clutch style transmission *simular work that would be done to swap the C60 tranny with additional steps.*
fith - still in the works, looking for a company that can replace the stock engine sleeves with dirrect replacements made of T304 or T316L grade stainless steele *preferably T316L grade stainless, again, for my own reasons. engine longevity and reliability skyrockets with the additional strengthening to handle higher power goals if wanted/needed. this engine is also a lab-test engine at the same time with hydrogen fuels which thus calls or protection agenst water abuse.*
sixth - finish the complete install WITH the all wheel drive transfer case in place and ready for use. in the mean while of working on the rear end suspension and drivetrain sytem and getting it ready for installation to the front on the actual running xB. the engine swap and project will remain in front wheel drive with the tranfers case in place WITHOUT the rear until the rear settup is done.
summry - the point behind this, using a wrecked xB or two to fit the settup and get around any and all problems before hand and make it perfect so that when the install is to be done on the actual xB it's going on will be a sinch and a quick job without hassel.
regardless of what anyone out there or anyone here who says this wont work, this is not just a simple swap. i did clearly state the modifications needed plus there may be more through doing the actual project. the 3SGTE IS a big engine but only because of it's settup using the turbo. custom exhaust and intake manifolds will fix ALOT of this problem. the rest of it is mainly because the exhaust is in the front and theintake is on the back which does make perfect for turbo'ed applications... it becomes a pain in the butt with projects like this. im sure i'll hit many road blocks that i'll have to get around but i'm willing to deal with it and fight through this. my goal is to sit around 350hp and torque at the wheels using a 2nd Gen 3SGTE or AKA a ST185 settup. this power range will be really great and will make the xB hall ___ down the road whilest still being reliable. aprox curb weight after the job is fully complete, inclueding the AWD being finished, should be around 2,600-2,700lbs. yes, it's heavier but it's because of the 3SGTE mainly while the AWD system is only adding 170lbs, the 3SGTE is a HEAVY engine compared to others but is a beast because of it. but 350hp and torque on 2,600-2,700lbs with AWD will be pretty freakin fast for the xB plus if it's not enough the 2nd gen 3SGTE ST185 full system is fully reliable mechanicly up until the 650hp and torque range so if it's not enough power, theres LOTS of room to work with.
Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmmmm Turbo'y
i can get the whole package combo for about $1,300 and then i can start the project. it's gona take a couple months or so before i can actualy start. not sure if the appartment manager would like a engine hanging around in one of thier units...
01-27-2008, 07:11 PM
#5
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it'll stront wheel drive for the most part at first while the rear end suspension and drive train is being modified to fit into the xB, the transfercase will be installed and fitted without the driveshaft so basicly it just stays all wheel drive for a while and then the rear will be fitted later.
i'm pretty freakin stoked about this project. a buddy of mine and i have been running around here and there looking at Celica cars ranging from 1990-1993 models to get an idea of fittment. just so happens a good freind of mine drives a 90 or 91 Celica ST and judging by it's bay, the 3SGTE WILL fit the xB with alot less hassel then people think. all of the 90's celica models between 90 and 93 have the same basic engine bay between the ST, GT, GT-S and All-Trac / GT4.
after seeing that V8 load up on ClubxB, i then started to think "oh... oh it's on mo'fo'!". the great thing about the project... i don't have to get rid of my rims if i end up changing hubs, the bolt pattern is still the same .
i'm pretty freakin stoked about this project. a buddy of mine and i have been running around here and there looking at Celica cars ranging from 1990-1993 models to get an idea of fittment. just so happens a good freind of mine drives a 90 or 91 Celica ST and judging by it's bay, the 3SGTE WILL fit the xB with alot less hassel then people think. all of the 90's celica models between 90 and 93 have the same basic engine bay between the ST, GT, GT-S and All-Trac / GT4.
after seeing that V8 load up on ClubxB, i then started to think "oh... oh it's on mo'fo'!". the great thing about the project... i don't have to get rid of my rims
if i end up changing hubs, the bolt pattern is still the same .
01-28-2008, 12:54 AM
#9
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Originally Posted by 2_much_tc
i know this is a stupid question, but what engine is that from? And this might turn out to be an awesome build... Watching...
01-28-2008, 06:07 AM
#14
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Comes from the Celica All-Trac models ranging from years 1987 - 2003 *inclueds all version being it US, UK and JDM*.
i'm using the ST185 for now being it's the easiest to get ahold of. the ST215 is very rare to get at this point let alone trying to get the ST205.
there's a ST215 on Ebay right now but doubt it will be around when i'm ready to purchase. i rather like the ST185 though, the CT26 turbo spools rather quickly and early compared to the other versions.
ST165 - 182hp @ 6,000rpm, 184lbs torque @ 3,600rpm
ST185 - 221hp @ 6,000rpm, 224lbs torque @ 3,200rpm
ST205 - 241hp @ 6,000rpm, 224lbs torque @ 4,000rpm
ST215 - 259hp @ 6,200rpm, 239lbs torque @ 4,400rpm
also i've been reading that the models newer then the ST185 is slightly weaker based on the engine while the ST205's tranfercase, center diff and rear diff are stronger then the ST185 and ST165. this weakness though is based on power levels higher then 700hp/600lbs torque, same goes for the ST185 and ST165 drivetrain being weaker, but it's the same power ranges. if i can get my hands on a ST205 or ST215, then i'll deffinently go for it, newer engine, less miles and i'll replace the turbo with a Garrett that spools a little faster because the ST205 and ST215 don't use the CT26 turbos, they use a turbo thats more based on the rally aspects of the engine and spool late and somewhat harsh for what it is from what i've heard.
i COULD do a stroker kit or use the 5SFE bottum end and get an extra 0.2L going on for a bit more torque end. i'm aiming basicly for the torque end more seeing as it's an AWD settup, i figure since i have the AWD i can transfer that power to the ground alot easier.
what do you guys think? stroker/5SFE bottum end or no?
i'm using the ST185 for now being it's the easiest to get ahold of. the ST215 is very rare to get at this point let alone trying to get the ST205.
there's a ST215 on Ebay right now but doubt it will be around when i'm ready to purchase. i rather like the ST185 though, the CT26 turbo spools rather quickly and early compared to the other versions.
ST165 - 182hp @ 6,000rpm, 184lbs torque @ 3,600rpm
ST185 - 221hp @ 6,000rpm, 224lbs torque @ 3,200rpm
ST205 - 241hp @ 6,000rpm, 224lbs torque @ 4,000rpm
ST215 - 259hp @ 6,200rpm, 239lbs torque @ 4,400rpm
also i've been reading that the models newer then the ST185 is slightly weaker based on the engine while the ST205's tranfercase, center diff and rear diff are stronger then the ST185 and ST165. this weakness though is based on power levels higher then 700hp/600lbs torque, same goes for the ST185 and ST165 drivetrain being weaker, but it's the same power ranges. if i can get my hands on a ST205 or ST215, then i'll deffinently go for it, newer engine, less miles and i'll replace the turbo with a Garrett that spools a little faster because the ST205 and ST215 don't use the CT26 turbos, they use a turbo thats more based on the rally aspects of the engine and spool late and somewhat harsh for what it is from what i've heard.
i COULD do a stroker kit or use the 5SFE bottum end and get an extra 0.2L going on for a bit more torque end. i'm aiming basicly for the torque end more seeing as it's an AWD settup, i figure since i have the AWD i can transfer that power to the ground alot easier.
what do you guys think? stroker/5SFE bottum end or no?
01-28-2008, 07:11 PM
#15
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don't forget the st202, but i dont think that it is a turbo. id say go for the one that is guarenteed, the st185, st205, or st215. dont do like the honda peeps and mix and match heads to bottom ends. just remember that the newer models have the vvti which will allow the motor to do some light tuning on the fly..... (not to rag on hondas, i used to have a crx with an ls bottom end and b16 head that i had built myself, and i looooved it ~230whp on a stock motor and 2300 lb car, it ran with porsche turbos.)
01-28-2008, 08:59 PM
#16
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the bottum end swap out has been doen several times but the problem is doing it is that there arn't many piston + rod sets for it so it makes it hard going that route while the stroker is easiely supplied but it's expencive, $5,400 is pretty pricey i think for such a small kit... concidering i'm spending $1,300 for the engine/tranny/transfercase combo and then around 5,000-9,000 for a healthy salveageable xB to use as my lab rat for the swap, the stroker would be a serious big addon chunk of change. could have sworn i saw a bigger stroker kit some time ago at around 2.4L instead of 2.2L, i'd like to find that again.
01-29-2008, 12:38 AM
#18
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one thing to remember about factory turbocharged toyota motors is that they can usually handle a big increase in boost, ie 2jz supra turbo motors, just make sure that you increase the fuel as you increase the boost and the motor will usually love more and more boost.
01-29-2008, 07:46 AM
#19
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oh ya totaly! i know first hand just what abuse the 2JZ and 7M can take on stock internals *the buddy i mentioned before owns a MKIII supra of which we've done ALOT of work on*.
the one thing i know about the 3SGTE though is that it's rods should be replaced by some crowers just for security. but i'm somewhat torn on doing a stroker kit or not, if i don't do it then the least i'll be doing is the rods. the pistons should be replaced aswell being they are those cast/forge hybrid type so i'd just go full forged.
i'd like to get my hands on a E152F tranny though aswell because it's got the longer gear ratios compared to the E151F that comes with the engine. the E152F was used for Toyota's actual rally based GT4's and All-Trac's while the E151F was used a taller gear ratio for easy street driving but it's based on the stock power of the 3SGTE, i aim to push 75% more power or double stock power so the E152F would be better in that case being i have the power to push the gears a bit more without slugging down.
the one thing i know about the 3SGTE though is that it's rods should be replaced by some crowers just for security. but i'm somewhat torn on doing a stroker kit or not, if i don't do it then the least i'll be doing is the rods. the pistons should be replaced aswell being they are those cast/forge hybrid type so i'd just go full forged.
i'd like to get my hands on a E152F tranny though aswell because it's got the longer gear ratios compared to the E151F that comes with the engine. the E152F was used for Toyota's actual rally based GT4's and All-Trac's while the E151F was used a taller gear ratio for easy street driving but it's based on the stock power of the 3SGTE, i aim to push 75% more power or double stock power so the E152F would be better in that case being i have the power to push the gears a bit more without slugging down.
