Negative Camber plates and shims -what, why, how to do- - Scionlife.com



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Old 08-20-2005, 02:45 PM   #1
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Default Negative Camber plates and shims -what, why, how to do-

To start off are pictures of various kit parts, to which you may add by sending me PM's to various finds of your own.
Images are Gadwin Screenshots, a freeware program.

We start this from a noob's perspective. I am one too.
This is why brand names are explained and theory is explored



FRONT END CAMBER KITS

CUSCO is a Japanese [/size] domestic market make. The blue plates are aluminum.
How many degrees of negative camber does the Cusco allow for xA/xB? About three?
TEIN is another JDM company which sells worldwide. Their uppermount plate allows some cambering. But how much?
If you know the numbers available please PM the data for insertion here.









PROGRESS TECH'Skit would appear to be simple camber adjustment bolts for the lower mount. How much negative camber does this item allow?
*am needing a picture*






_____________________________________________________________


REAR END CAMBER KITS


Van Phan's One Ton Garage rear kit is newly released.
Read and see about the results here:
http://www.scionlife.com/forums/view...r=asc&start=25

photo by squirrel. He is a dealer for this item
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Old 08-20-2005, 02:49 PM   #2
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primer for newbies


Q: What is negative camber?
A: A leaning-inward of the wheels

Q: Why go for negative camber?
A: For most people it is a style factor. For others it is a handling enhancement.
Negative camber is both of these things.

Q: How much negative camber is usually seen?
A: A couple or three degrees seems to be most usual for stylish appearance.
Less camber, even invisible camber, still affects handling, and also -tends- to scub off tread life.

Q: Why does negative camber tend to scrub tires?
A: Because when a tire is tilted it generates a turning force into the direction of the lean.

Let us first consider a bicycle tire because it's a round-faced, oblong, narrow profile of tread the road. You'd think that a high pressure bicycle tire would not scrub if leaned into a camber condition. But it does, albeit to a tiny degree, owing to its nearly round tread crossection.

Example: If you were to dismount a bike wheel and roll it along like a hoop, it will roll straight as long as you push it straight. Now give it a lean as you shove it along. It curves off in that direction. Next, imagine you restrain the bike wheel in a fork pointing it straight ahead, yet you LEAN the tire as it rolls. This makes a small but real, constant turning force on the skinny bike tire. It will actually wear its tread much faster now than if it were running in a vertical plane... unless ! we neutralize the turning force by twising the fork a degree or two -in opposite direction of the lean. This is called toe-out.

Toe-out neutalizes Camber Steer. Does this make sense so far? It is not an easy concept to grasp so don't worry if it seems obscure... in time, like me, you'll get it.

Now, our car tires are quite wide and flat across the face. Think of the tire face as an arc of a cylinder. IF we camber the tire we are putting the flexible tire's contact face (road patch) into the shape of a sort of cone instead of a rectangular patch.


Q: What happens if you roll a cone along the ground? Can you make it roll straight?
A: No, of course not.

The cone generates a vivid example of camber steering, for in fact, the tire in significant negative camber generates quite a turning force of its own due to this conical pressure patch.

People who camber their wheels, front or rear, or both, but do not correct the scrub with compensatory toe out, will wear their tire treads unduly.


Q: OK, I see why that is. How much tire tread wear can be saved by dialing in the perfect amount of toe-out?

A: For a historical example, take the case of the ancient Model T Ford, with it's 3 degrees of positive camber on the front wheels, compensating toe in, tire life deteriorates by fully half if no toe in is used. Plus, without toe in, the T has no directional stability. With even the slightest toe out (understand T is oPpOsite of our modern reasons for cambering), the it becomes a darting, insanely difficult, vehicle to control. The reason why is that each front wheel wants to track the car off away from a straight line. Whichever wheel has the slight advantage in steering the car, that wheel runs the T off on tangents. This effect is caused, too, by ackerman steering angles which our cars today still employ.

Q: If I compensate the negative camber steering effect by toe out, where then does the tire tread wear?

A: Theory says that it will wear most at the inside of the tread belt, in any event. But this wear will become more evenly distributed, and shared by the outer tread, too, if proper toe out is obtained. The center of the tread probably wears the least, then, if we get our toe out angle correct for steady-road driving.

Q: Does negative camber affect handling? How and why?

A: Yes. Here's the how and why:


When the car corners, weight is transferred to the outside wheels. The body rolls to some degree, tending to stand up the leaning, negatively cambered outside wheels to more of a truly upright condition. This puts more tread contact patch onto the road. More of a rectangular patch. The larger patch means more grip.

Let us contrast this with the OEM example of uncambered wheels:
When the vertical wheel leans OUTwardly during the turn, the contact patch tends to become more conical. Less effectve patch area. Less grip.

Now, think about that steering effect of a rolling cone again.


Q: What does this relatively UNcambered OEM set-up, or even exaggerated aftermarket negative camber, do to cornering, in terms of -a new steering force-?

A: It tends to steer the car into the direction of the turn. Therefore it aids cornering.


Too, we know that outside tread wear is maximum during cornering.
Too, we see that in cornering, whether OEM camber or aftermarket camber, the contact patch aids steering to some degree. But only in the case of a pre-cambered wheel does its patch grow more nearly rectangular and thus, give maximum grip and minimal tendency to oversteer. Likewise, the negatively cambered wheel will wear it's tread LESS during the cornering than does the OEM or neutral camber.

It is a case of one thing or another. There is no free lunch for tire life.
There are issues of style.
More importantly to the sport tuner, are the issues of compromising the OEM setup from -sedate and economical- handling, to his/her preferred sporty handling.

summary of the data so far:

Cambering is a basic kind of alignment.
Yet, sport cambering far into the negative zone is not widely understood by we folks on these casusal forums.
It is style but it is also means to benefit cornering grip. If the toe out factor is ignored, negative cambering will rapidly scrub tire tread.
If toe out is attended to properly then tread life will be better, but not equal to neutrally cambered tires.
In compensation, the toed out neg. cambered tire gives quite superior cornering grip and much improved steering response.




Corrections and additions please- send by PM if you like.
If anything still seems murky please help me clarify the prose.
thanks!
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Old 08-20-2005, 04:23 PM   #3
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Very Nice SciFly!

Yes, this needs to be a FAQ.

I'll have to take some snaps of the DiPark rear camber kit also.
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Old 08-20-2005, 05:27 PM   #4
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Nicely done, but missing the main point !!! JDMP
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Old 08-20-2005, 06:56 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyBoX
Nicely done, but missing the main point !!! JDMP
I miss some clues for sure.. what is JDMP?
japan domestic market pimp?

???


Folks, go ahead and add pictures of cambered cars and parts and parts finds and whatever can aid us to know more on this topic.

There are some genuinely experienced tuners here at Scionlife.
Please share your know how, your stuff. Performance drivers are of particular interest
to myself (who has zero actual experience in this field in anything newer than Model T Ford).
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Old 08-20-2005, 09:58 PM   #6
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2 degrees negative up front, 3 degrees negative in back, 18x7.5 +38 up front, and 18x8.5 +35 in the rear, no spacers. Riding on TEIN Wagons(for the bB), and have since added custom rate/height TEIN bcoilover springs.



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Old 08-20-2005, 10:20 PM   #7
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Theyre also used to fit wider wheels in there right?

Is that what you're getitng at Sean?

Scott
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Old 08-20-2005, 11:00 PM   #8
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nice... anybody have any more pix of front neg camber?.... looking for a cheap kit...... anybody have links of info.... id appreciate it..............thx
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Old 08-20-2005, 11:38 PM   #9
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Hey Scifly, heres a link for noobs like myself. Has some diagrams:

http://www.familycar.com/alignment.htm
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Old 08-20-2005, 11:44 PM   #10
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fusionscion, OTG is about as cheap as you can get in the long run. Theyre cheap for camber plates first of all, plus toe correction saves tires which are $$$.

Squirrel up there will be stocking them if you want a set of OTG Camber Plates.

Scott
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Old 08-21-2005, 12:01 AM   #11
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Yes, I will have them once Van has settled into his new shop. I will let peeps know when I have them.
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Old 08-21-2005, 01:20 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sexyscionlover
fusionscion, OTG is about as cheap as you can get in the long run. Theyre cheap for camber plates first of all, plus toe correction saves tires which are $$$.

Squirrel up there will be stocking them if you want a set of OTG Camber Plates.

Scott
ya i ordered from van himself...... but i am talking about from camber plates that install by the strut bar in the engine bay..... van doesnt manufacture anything with camber for the front of our scions.... im thinking about the cusco plates, how much do those go for?
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Old 08-21-2005, 03:54 AM   #13
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read the first post....



id guess around 242.50....
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Old 08-21-2005, 04:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sexyscionlover
read the first post....



id guess around 242.50....

Yup Cusco camber plates vary in pricing due to the power of the $$$ compared to the Yen at time of import.
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Old 08-21-2005, 04:42 AM   #15
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opps .... those first two pix didnt load up be4.... so ya why is one 242 n the other 42 bux.... they cant be the same kits, what parts vary?
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Old 08-21-2005, 05:10 AM   #16
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Cusco camber plates are well built. They can add either positive or negative camber up front and replace the current strut tophat.

When I purchased mine I paid a little more than $242 but I went to a supplier who I could trust (MyBox). They can be hard to find at times.
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Old 08-21-2005, 09:26 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sexyscionlover
fusionscion, OTG is about as cheap as you can get in the long run. Theyre cheap for camber plates first of all, plus toe correction saves tires which are $$$.

The OTG camber plates are already for sale at www.PrecisionMuffler.com and are in stock and ready to ship. :D
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Old 08-21-2005, 06:41 PM   #18
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Scott, I had my xB checked yesterday and my toires are wearing fine for the toe in it currently has w/ the 3 degrees of negative camber. I know it will only get better once I have Van's product installed.

Tire brand and one's driving abilities will also effect the rear tire wear.
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Old 08-21-2005, 10:19 PM   #19
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Old 08-21-2005, 10:29 PM   #20
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Go here to see kits for domestic autos.
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/cc.asp
Wishing they made these for Scions.
Look at the apparent quality and value and the unlimited warranty.
Notable is the -caster adjustability-

Gadwin screenshots from this page:


Quote:

When cornering, body roll causes an increase in positive camber,
which pulls up the inside edge of the front outside tire, reducing the effective size of
the tire’s footprint. More static negative camber counters this effect.
For example, if you have 1 degree of static negative camber, and the camber moves
3 degrees due to body roll, you end up with 2 degrees of dynamic positive camber.
If you have 3 degrees of static negative camber, you’ll end up with 0 degrees of
dynamic camber – resulting in a larger tire footprint.

from their FAQ page, well worth study
http://www.maximummotorsports.com/ccFAQ.asp
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