aquariuz

Hello everyone,

This is my first time posting here on this forum, and I must say this is an amazing forum It's huge and it seems to be filled with knowledgeable users. Please bear with me as I am getting used to this forum's regulations, and I apologize if I am doing something abnormal.

I just a pre-owned Scion TC 07 stock package from a nearby toyota dealer here in Jersey. This was about 6 months back. About a week into having the car, i was driving down the highway at about 70mph when the car in front of me suddenly hit the brakes. I slammed on my brakes but nearly had a heart attack when I felt how weak the brakes were. The car continued to slide forward but finally stopped short from the front car's bumper.

And so, I went back to my dealer and had the brakes checked, and the mechanic adamantly claims the brakes are fine. So I took their words, and drove the car as though things are normal. About a month back, I was on the parkway on a slightly rainy day, and the road was somewhat damp. As I made an exit on a pretty sharp turn going about 30-35mph, the rear part of the car began to "slide" to one side. I say "slide" because it gently just gave way, like the rear wheels had no traction whatsoever. I somewhat panicked since the exit was very tight and has no space for the car to just slide off, so i stepped on the brakes to slow the car down, but it didnt help. So I turned the steering to the opposite and the car snapped the other direction and now heads towards the guard rail. The car tapped the rail and slid off it, ripping the front section off like it was paper mache.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...1&l=195767de07

Sorry if this is getting kinda long, but I just wanted to explain everything clearly before asking my questions. The car is certified pre-owned with supposedly new brakes (even the body shop that fixed the crash said they were acceptable) and everything is stock. The car came with 3 Yokohama S32A(?) tires (2 in front, 1 rear right) and 1 General Exclaim (left rear). All have equal wear on them at about 22,000 miles on the car.

Now, for my questions: Does TC stock brakes SUCK?? be honest with me guys I love this car, but man do the brakes feel like so cheap. To me, compared to other cars i've driven, which are not even considered sports, the TC's brakes dont "bite" at all. Stepping it deep only makes the car "slide" slower, still having that slipping feeling. And on top of that, the brake pedal is so flimsy like it is about to fall off. Is this only me, or it's a common thing?

Also, are the tires stated above horrible with traction? On dry roads, its awesome, but come rain, they lose so much traction. I once had an understeer issue, and now an oversteer accident. I went on Tirerack, and the ratings for the stock yokohama tire was so bad that people doesn't seem to ever wanna use it anymore.

Again, sorry for such a long post, but Im trying to avoid falling into another accident. I believe I'm a pretty safe driver (never had a severe crash like this in the 8 years of driving) so something gives here. Please help and advice

Thanks,
Sean

Necromancer

No brakes are fine. The car will slide a little on rainy days but so will most. Also if the pavement is wet at all, the ABS will usually kick in. Seems to me that you are driving to fast. It is probably more the tires than the brakes IMO.

engifineer

Even on bad tires, you were overdriving the corner and most likely lifted the throttle at high rpm mid turn and/or hit the brakes mid turn to make the tail come out. I autox this car and on stock suspension, it will understeer way more than oversteer. I have it set up to rotate a lot more and it still isnt tail happy. So spinning around was not the cars fault. You did exactly what you should not have done in that situation too. You entered the turn too fast, and in mid turn lifted and hit the brakes.. which is exactly the thing to do in order to get a FWD to spin around ;) Then you overcorrected and hit the rail.

But your stopping issues is the tires if anything. ABS prevents you from locking the tires up, so if your tires are bad or the roads are slick, then they did what they were supposed to. The tC has pretty good brakes stock. Like I said, I autox this car and the brakes are my last worry. Others that have driven it at test n tunes also have commented that the brakes are a strong point.. and most of them normally drive much nicer cars than the tC The yokos you mention are not the best, and wear is also in the factor. How close to the wear bars?

And the pedal is not "flimsy" not about to "Fall off" etc.

TunerKid

I always thought the ABS was a little too touchy! I would say your brakes are probably fine. As for the tires, Im almost certain that if you got it from an actual dealer(not a buy here, pay here) its supposed to have 4 MATCHING brand new tires! Not 3 Yokohamas and 1 of whatever else was laying around in the shop! Just my 2 cents. Hope it helps and good luck

Coolwaterz

i feel that the ABS is too touchy too. i broke really hard to see if i can feel the Gs on wet pavement. but the ABS kicked at the low speeds.
yeah i need new tires...

also i got my tC new so i noticed my pads fading a little. used to be very stiff now its soft and slippery. i dont tail gate so im fine.

switching to slotted/drilled rotors and cermatic pads when i get more money...

draxcaliber

dude, i'll be honest, it sounds like you royally suck at driving. seriously. brakes on the tC are fine. stopping distance is fine. handling is good, it doesn't give you alot of confidence with the body roll, but it rotates well enough.

the tires do suck though, and you should never but never mis match tires. doesn't matter how even the wear is, the tread pattern and grip will make the car do spooky things.

i'm sorry you wrecked your tc and am happy that you don't seem hurt, but you really need driving lessons to truly understand the dynamics and physics of handling a car.

aquariuz

LOL!! Thnx draxcaliber, I never said i was a great driver, cuz I never drive Pro or street race either. N yes, I dont know much about the dynamics of handling a car, Im not gonna defend myself in dat either. I don't know if driving a heavier car has anything to do with controlling the car better, but I believe my older cars (Maximas) were much heavier than the tC so I might have underestimated something.

Anywho, I didnt buy the tires, they came with the car like dat, with 3 stock s32a and a General Tire Exclaim, I am guessing it Exclaim UHP although on the tire wall it says only Exclaim. This is also why I would like to change my tires to something better. Any suggestions guys? I don't have much to spend on tires, so I had kinda narrow it down to the following choices (due to price, I know there r many other better once out there)

1) Continental ExtremeContact DWS (116)

2)Dunlop SP Sport Signature (99)

3) Exclaim Altimax HP (92)

Does anybody have a better suggestions within the price range? I have a couple of people who has tried either the Contis or the Dunlops and they love it. The reviews on Tirerack also seems to show dat the Altimax HP being a great performing tire.

Coolwaterz, I agree with u here. this is exactly wat I am trying to say about the brakes, they feel soft n slippery, no bite to it when I step on the brakes. But the mechanics say the brake pads are fine n not worn out.

Any suggestions on an affordable alternative aftermarket brakes dat wont break the bank? :D

I also feel that it might have been tire related. I just really feel that the pedal is so weak, and can move left n right in its position, rather than just moving up and down. And then when I step on it halfway deep, when I lift my foot off it, sometimes it makes this crack sound, like it was caught on something n then snaps itself off free. It scares me sometimes thinking whether the pedal will just come off one day lol

Deathwish238

You should consider two tires and two tires only:
Hankook Ventus v12 Evo K110
Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec

Car & Driver Reviews. I'm getting the Hankooks and lots of Corvette and Porsche drivers love them...so they'll be more than great for a tC.

Get 225mm wide while you're at it, it fits without issues.


And never brake hard in the middle of a turn. The problem was your tires(all seasons...) but braking midway didn't help. If you're already turning don't plan to slow down much. If you play some Forza 2/3 you'll learn this well lol.




Edit: Just looked at the pictures...did you get hurt? That does not look pretty.

aquariuz

No Deathwish, Im all good thanks for asking Didn't get hurt or anything. The airbag didn't even deploy since the impact wasn't hard enough. It looked severe cuz of the way the impact was, going sideways on the guardrail, tearing on front part of the car.

Lol, yeah, now dat i think about it, I shouldnt have slammed on the brakes while it was slipping, it just makes it slip even more. I guess i just panicked since I didn't expect it to drift off like dat haha

225? why 225? Even though it fits nicely, wats the advantage? n wouldn't it gives issues down the road? Will it make the car look funny since there's some kind of a bulge on the tires now? Oh, n should I stay with 45 (225/45) or go down to (225/40)?

I was also wondering, will adding rear wing on the car help to keep the rear end of the car glued down to the road to prevent it from easily slipping? I mean, i dont know if it's just me or wat, but I get this nagging feeling that the rear part of the car weigh much less than the front, thus making it easier to oversteer. I even thought of loading the trunk with something quite heavy just to put weight on the back, but will a wing do better? Or am I just talking bonkers?

Any suggestions on wings? I dont really like the stock wings, so maybe something nicer but not too expensive? Also how about sideskirts and front lip? I like those metal front lip but I dont know what they're called :D

engifineer

This car in now way "Easily" oversteers. It understeers by default like most fwd cars do.

225's wont bulge at all. They fit perfect. And you will have more rubber on the road and more traction in most conditions. In snow you typically dont want to go too wide, but in most other situations you are better off with wider tires.

Here is what a 225/45 looks like on our rim. There isnt any bulge:

tcleazy-girl

All who say the brakes are fine need to consider possible air in the hydraulic lines. Air in the lines will get you that soft and spongy feeling of the brake pedal. Also overheating the brake fluid will cause it to boil and create air in the lines leading to brake fading. I don't know much about how safe the driver drives, but when he mentions he is doing 30mph approaching a turn like in his pics, that is about average posted speed limits in roads like these in my area. doesn't seem too fast to me.

If I were the guy concerned with brake performance, I'd start with bleeding off the brake fluid. It's a simple and inexpensive approach to pinpointing brake pedal feeling.

engifineer

He is not overheating the brake fluid. That is only an issue under extreme conditions. Stock brake fluid is perfectly fine even in autox situations, because you simply dont get it hot enough to worry about it. On a road course, you start needing to run a higher temp rated fluid in order to prevent those types of issues.

If this is an issue with air in the lines, you need to find out how it got there. Unless you disconnect a line, you should not get air in the lines (you dont even need to bleed when changing pads contrary to what some tell you.. it is a closed system).

The issue he described was already found to be technique, not the car. If you simply enter a turn in the tc and lose traction because of slick conditions and/or fast entry, it will not oversteer, it will understeer straight out of the turn. Those of use that compete in this car can vouch for the fact that we spend a lot of time setting the car up so it WILL rotate

tcleazy-girl

Well he did say he bought the car used so who knows what the previous owner did. At one time the brakes could have been overheated and left some air pockets in the lines. Plus, just by looking at his pics it looks like he lost control before approaching the dead man's curve. So I'm trying to imagine myself in his shoes as to why he was panicking. He also mention that he panicked from his previous experience with deep pedal application when he was going 70mph stopping the car going straight. So it's either crappy tires or it's very low brake pressure in the hydraulic lines.

Jan06xB

I would say to DEFINATELY check the tire pressure in all 4 tires to make sure they are not low and if the left rear broke loose first and that's the odd tire type then start there. Also it looks like it had just starting raining and there is a lot of leaves on the side of the road so it could have been really slick plus your brakes could have been a little wet to start with when you first applied them then suddenly dried out and grabbed a little. As far as the brake pedal feel . . . get under the dash and check it out for any cracks on the pedal arm. Even my 06xB has some flex in the brake pedal arm side to side. Check your fluid level and if full then is should be ok - getting air in the lines doesn't normally happen unless the pads were removed and someone pumped the brakes when the calipers were off the rotors and ran the fluid low. Could be the pads need seating in with more moderate application for longer periods of time to wear them in a little. Brakes don't work as well as you would think at 70mpg and they get even worse at higher speeds. Kinetic energy increase with the square of the velocity so going twice as fast requires 4 times more braking energy - 4 times more heat. Anything over 40mph and you start to realize how long it takes to slow down. Sounds like some practice braking is needed and don't do it near any trees or light poles!