Big Brake package for tC?

[Socal_VQ35de]

Mods, I'm new, I apologize if this should have went in a different group, I didn't see one that was specifically brakes. Anyways.... I found a company that is looking into creating a big brake kit for the TC. They make their kits affordable by re-using the stock caliper. Their kits basically consist of larger rotors and a caliper relocation bracket. This is good in 2 ways: 1. Braking torque is greater due to the larger leverage of the larger rotor 2. Larger rotor means more mass, which soaks up heat better, which is good for those of us that track our TC's. You definitely could argue that a bigger and/or multi-piston caliper would be ideal, but since they cost quite a bit, they make their kits using the stock caliper. Anyways, the company is called RacingBrake and if you would like to see them come out with this for the TC, please post in their forum so they can gauge the interest. From what they have told me so far, they believe they could upsize the stock 255mm diameter rotor to around 320mm and still fit in stock 17" wheels. url: http://forums.racingbrake.com/showthread.php?t=273 I'm not associated with RacingBrake, but I am interested in a good cheap way to improve braking performance

[silverstreaktc]

i think powerslot already makes something like this.

[draxcaliber]

that is the stupidest thing i've ever heard.

bigger brake rotors means MORE ROTATIONAL MASS! which means more upsprung weight. which means reduced handling responsivness and slower acceleration and greater braking distance.

the only advantage to larger rotors is greater heat capacity, but without stronger pistons and more engine power, you are ultimately making your tc slower and sloppier.

thanks for playing.

[mengsta]

cool great answer drax, so getting a BBK isnt good if we arent pushing alot of ponies?

[draxcaliber]

a big brake kit is only worthwhile if you track your tc alot and do lots of hot laps which means heat soak and brake fade can become a real factor.

now when it comes to increasing brake performance, the best place to start is actualy your tires, since friction or traction is really important to stopping.

then you can get better pads for more bite, and slotted rotors for better cooling.

now rotors and wheels are both unsprung weight (which is weight beyond the control of suspension, and rotational mass decreases wheel horse power because the weight of the brake rotors and wheels means it takes more effort for the engine just to turn them, and then since the brake rotors are larger, but the brake pads and calipers are the same size, there is greater heat capacity, BUT the surface area that the pads cover is the same, and the pressure of the pistons is also the same, so there isn't greater clamping force, but now there is more weight to stop since the brake rotor is larger. more rotational mass (bigger heavier wheels and tires) means more momentum to resist.

[mengsta]

you're actually very right, according to common sense. why would you need bigger rotors when you have the same caliper sizing.

[Ace83]

haha drax is right.. this has been discussed over and over.. but yeah I would say the only advantage is looks.. Just do it right and get a real BBK

[Socal_VQ35de]

yeah drax is right. Wait. No he's not.

Would you like to back up your claims with facts?

#1 - NO a larger rotor does not increase moment of inertia. Only if the bulk of the weight is far from the centerline. Thus a larger rotor does not decrease hp if it is designed correctly. If you were right, then why would performance cars have large rotors? Because the manufacturers WANT to reduce power???

#2 - YES heavier rotors do add unsprung weight to the car, which is very bad. Unsprung weight has 4x the impact of sprung weight when it comes to handling. Unsprung weight does not affect power at all, although it may slow your 0-60 down. Of course we're talking about slowing it down less than it would when you load your trunk with 150 lbs of amps and subs.

#3 - YES a heavier rotor does absorb more heat, thus allowing you more breaking ability before you outgas the pads. but why bother, because everyone knows the fastest way around a racetrack is with no brakes! (C'Mon -- you obviously have never raced on a track before)

#4 - force = coefficient of friction * area of pad * pressure. force itself is useless in this sense as it is linear and tires rotate, so to get the rotational torque, you need to multiply the linear force calculated above and the length from the centerline. Got it? No -- oh well. Yes? Keep reading. Race pads don't do magic, they just increase the coefficient of friction. So for this example, we will hold the pads the same. given the exact same pad, the exact same pressure (Because the caliper is the same) however INCREASE THE DISTANCE and even a 4th grader can calculate that simply moving the pads out will have a dramatic increase in braking torque, or basically the force opposing the motion. But wait, in your eloquently written and elaborate post, you show how Newtonian physics is all wrong.

#5 yes, tires are a big factor, however for those of us that want to maximize everything we change both the tires and the pads.

But, forget it, go ahead and drop thousands on 20" rims and sound equipment and keep your obviously perfect stock brake setup. Just remember when you spin off the track that you raise your hands so the paramedics know you are okay.

Have a nice day

[draxcaliber]

1. performance cars have larger brake rotors because they have more power, and are designed to be driven more aggresively, therefore they need the additional heat capacity to reduce the brake fade.

2. i never said unsprung weight effects whp, i said rotational mass effects whp. cars with large heavy rims that some people thinks looks cool put more strain on the engine. or for instance a while ago, todd from turbo toyotas was talking about how if you built an engine for the tc with forged pistons, connecting rod and crank and such, but ran it on the stock engine tune, it would make less power than stock because the heavier components in the engine would take more energy to spin. and the wheels and brake rotors on the car are the last things that the engine spins, increase their weight, and you increase the effort required to accelerate.

*do you see any audio mods in my profile? nope, just got the stock radio on my tc. i might eventually add something like an ED sub and amp, but one thing i really want to do is put on a cf hood and hatch for weight savings.

3. when did i say that the fastest way around the track is with no brakes? i think it was mario andretti that said "it is amazing how many drivers, even at the f1 level, think brakes are just to slow the car down." brakes aren't just for slowing the car down, they are for controlling the car and adjusting the balance and handling characteristics of the car, and moving the weight of the car around when maneuvering. i know i'm not a track superstar, but i autocross when i can, and before i made my plans for more power in my tc, i beefed up my brake system with axxis ultiamte pads and powerslot slotted brake rotors, then i did suspension because one of my favorite sayings is: power without control is chaos.

4. uhm...last time i checked force = mass * acceleration. as for newtonian physics, object at rest stays at rest, and objects in motion stay in motion until acted upon by outside forces. the greater the mass of an object the more inertia that must be overcome to move or stop it. now i get what your saying about how braking torque increase more as you move out from the center or the brake rotor. working in a pizza place, i noticed that as i spin the circular trays on the counter, if i stick my finger in the middle of the tray while it is spining, it will keep spinning almost as if i did nothing, but if i push my finger down further out from the center of the tray, it will slow it down considerably more. but brake rotors are considerably thicker and made from much heavier material than pizza trays. but while your dramatically increasing the brake torque as you explain it, the area of the brake rotor also increases considerably as the rotors increase in diameter.

if the brakes on all cars could be improved simply by fitting them with the largest rotors imaginable, then every car on the market would have have them, but that is not true.

5. glad you agree with that, even stop tech who doesn't even sell tires says that better tires mean better braking.

and i'm not going off course anytime soon, i have my suspension well sorted out on my tc and it won't go anywhere i don't point it with the steering wheel. i'm not one of those ricer douchebags trying to put dubs and 15 inch woofers and 5000 watt amplifiers in my trunk.

now if you want to prove me wrong, i more than welcome it, set a stopping time with your test vehicle before and after you make this upgrade so you can present some accurate measurable quantifiable results and you can shut me up good.

[CSUnited14]

to much reading geez lol

[CarbonXe]

It's been proven over and over again that putting bigger brakes on a car will not decrease stopping distance. The only thing it does is reduce brake fade, which will improve stopping distance after the brakes have been brutally abused for an extended period of time. Unless the vehicle was used on the track once a week, you will not see any benefit in going with larger brakes.

[/discussion]

Just get the StopTech upgraded rotors/pads. They're slotted, perform great, reduce brake fade, and are cheap compared to a set of Endless brakes.

And yes, YOU will feel a huge difference in braking, but your actual stopping distance will not change one bit at all. Think of it like the Butt Dyno.

[captainlaziness]

....they look cooler...

[farberio]

Originally Posted by draxcaliber

Cliffnotes.

[Socal_VQ35de]

there are many, many different equations for force. f=ma is true, but in my example above, I am using a pretty common statics equation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_friction

Your points about inertia are very true, however they are more than compensated by the more efficient mechanical advantage due to the longer distance.

I don't have time to teach a thermodynamics or statics class here, but look at what this has to say regarding larger rotors.

http://www.carbibles.com/brake_bible.html

All I was trying to do was drum up interest in having another option for brakes for us. I didn't know about powerslot, and yes, that's basically what I'm trying to get RacingBrake to build, although I will say that RacingBrake setup is better than the powerslots because of how they make the bracket:

http://www.racingbrake.com/v/main/oe...it_compare.asp

Irregardless, I would think the community as a whole would want more options, no mater what their perspective was. Remember, Competition drives down prices. It's our money, so why not try to save some if we can.


As far as worrying about moment of inertia affecting HP....I would go with a lighter tire to compensate as the stock tires are somewhat heavy. Taking weight off the part furthest from the axle centerline is going to give you the best gains.

[scgon]

does brembo make a big brake kit for the tc

[KeRoLiUkAs]

Waste of money for the company as they wont get many customers, and waste of money for people unless they go to the track alot.

[captainlaziness]

Yes, Brembo has a front BBK that fits the tC.

[FLINTstone]

great way to introduce your product...good luck with sales!

[Obike]

Originally Posted by scgon

does brembo make a big brake kit for the tc

[Ace83]

^^^ that is sexy!!