Go Back   Scionlife.com » Scion xB Classic » Scion xB 1st-Gen Owners Lounge » Scion xA/xB 1st-Gen Forced Induction
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?
Register Albums Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read GarageVendors TSBs & Recalls

Scion xA/xB 1st-Gen Forced Induction
Turbo and supercharger applications...

Reply
 
 
 
Old 08-26-2008, 09:00 PM   #1
SimonTrent
Junior Member
SimonTrent 30/M
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canada
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via MSN to SimonTrent
Default Safe boost PSI on stock engine

i would like to know when is the breaking/bending point of the piston rods and other parts under boost.
__________________
Cars: 2006 Scion xB Black
2003 Toyota Echo (4 Door) Red Traded
SimonTrent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 01:03 AM   #2
blown_xa
Senior Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
blown_xa's Avatar
blown_xa 32/M

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: PTuning
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to blown_xa
Default

I'd have to say that im an expert in this area. If you plan on keeping the motor together for a long time I wouldnt exceed 8 psi with the Greddy Turbine or HKS.
__________________
1nzfe record holder (1/4 mile) 11.9 @ 121

Most reliable built Scion on SL
blown_xa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 01:50 AM   #3
swartzautoman
Senior Member
SL Member
 
swartzautoman's Avatar
swartzautoman 38/M
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: MID MO
iTrader: (3)
Default

yep.......id agree 8 psi would be ok.
now if you were to build up the inside you would be able to do around 14 psi without touching the fuel system.
__________________
tired of haters with nothing better to do?
xbsite.com has 0 tolerance for jurks!

lets fight!
http://swartzautoman.mybrute.com
http://balsofsteel.mybrute.com

http://www.ez-bakedcustomz.com

blaming a sooting on a gun is like me blaming my spelling errors on my keyboard

customize your 1st gen face plate
If you would like to make your own custom Spedo Face, Please PM IH8ONYU for the 04-07 XB Spedo Face Photoshop Template - $5
swartzautoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 03:36 AM   #4
SimonTrent
Junior Member
SimonTrent 30/M
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canada
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via MSN to SimonTrent
Default

ty, that is what i wanted to know
__________________
Cars: 2006 Scion xB Black
2003 Toyota Echo (4 Door) Red Traded
SimonTrent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2008, 03:15 PM   #5
captdownshift
Senior Member
5 Year Member
Strictly Scionized
SL Member
captdownshift 34/M
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: md
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to captdownshift Send a message via Yahoo to captdownshift
Default

i'm planning on running 7-8lb on stock internals on a k03 sport, not that it helps, but i'll let you know how it goes (or blows)
__________________
interested in autocrossing/rallycrossing or doing a track day in the mid-atlantic, or if you're just interested in car prep for such events contact me.


06 xb canyon carving midget car
ad/vendor/sponsorship space available
captdownshift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2008, 11:24 AM   #6
Maguyver
Senior Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
Scion Evolution
 
Maguyver's Avatar
Maguyver 37/M
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Miami
iTrader: (0)
Default

do you guys know what the stock greedy kit comes boosting
Maguyver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2008, 08:30 PM   #7
vettereddie
Moderator
Premium Member
5 Year Member
5 Year Member
Scikotics
SL Member
Moderator
 
vettereddie's Avatar
vettereddie 33/M

 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Patuxent River, MD
iTrader: (0)
Default

The Greddy turbo manual says it's set at between .3 and .4 kg/cm2. That's 4.27 - 5.69 psi.

I had the supercharger and ended up breaking a rod with it set at 7 psi. Can't say if it was directly from the s/c since I was just cruising at 60 MPH when it happened, but the stock rods are toothpicks. I think either the head gasket leaked or there was a void in the rod casting, but can't prove anything. The dealer blamed it on the cold air intake hydrolocking, but the roads were dry that day. There wasn't enough oil or coolant left afterwards to be able to take a sample.

The turbo should stress the engine, or at least the rods less since loss isn't transferred to the crankshaft, just in higher EGT and back pressure before the turbo. I'd recommend a blow off valve though to extend the life of the turbo, it doesn't come with one. They also have an intercooler upgrade available.

I'm building a new block now, should run around $1400 for me to do it with coated pistons, new rods and bearings.
__________________
Selling my turbo kit + add-ons

2004-2006 Scion xA / xB Greddy turbo
vettereddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2008, 11:13 PM   #8
Cinderblock
Senior Member
5 Year Member
AlphaSquad
SL Member
 
Cinderblock's Avatar
Cinderblock 25/M
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
iTrader: (0)
Default

7-8 psi is what im going ot run. im very surprised you didnt get flamed for not using the search though, theirs tons of this same exact question, if it isnt already, one should be sticky'd
__________________
no mo juice, hello boost
boosted box on 10psi
Alpha Squad all the way!
Cinderblock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2008, 08:20 PM   #9
paul_dezod
Sponsor

Scionetics
SL Member
 
paul_dezod's Avatar
paul_dezod 13/M
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Western NY
iTrader: (0)
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dezod-Motorsports-Inc/101339374669 http://instagram.com/dezodmotorsports
Default Re: Safe boost PSI on stock engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonTrent
i would like to know when is the breaking/bending point of the piston rods and other parts under boost.
Well that will depend HEAVILY on tuning and octane used. It's almost impossible to answer.
__________________
www.dezod.com
P: 716-681-6666
E: paul@dezod.com

FEEDBACK FOR DEZOD



paul_dezod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2008, 09:23 PM   #10
yellowxhoodie
Assistant Admin
Premium Member
5 Year Member

Assistant Admin
Trader
SL Member
 
yellowxhoodie's Avatar
yellowxhoodie 105/M
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: LOWLOW Chicago
iTrader: (16)
Send a message via AIM to yellowxhoodie
Default Re: Safe boost PSI on stock engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_dezod
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonTrent
i would like to know when is the breaking/bending point of the piston rods and other parts under boost.
Well that will depend HEAVILY on tuning and octane used. It's almost impossible to answer.
x1,000,000

also how often you "track" it. (or if you just beat on it alot)
__________________
Custom Sticker Inquiries
http://www.scionlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195210

Lazy Rocket.

http://www.facebook.com/LazyRocketVinyl
www.lazyrocket.com

PM me for all your vinyl and sticker needs!
yellowxhoodie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2008, 01:16 AM   #11
captdownshift
Senior Member
5 Year Member
Strictly Scionized
SL Member
captdownshift 34/M
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: md
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to captdownshift Send a message via Yahoo to captdownshift
Default

umm no, with a proper tune ona dyno holding rpms and adjusting fueling with stand alone for proper air fuel across the fuel rpm range how often you "track" it will not matter. a proper setup without lubrication or fueling issues shouldn't have any issues no matter how the driver drives the car.

now if you have a separate 100 octane map with higher boost levels etc then thats a different story, in theory the same princinpals apply, but i dont always trust every 100 octane supplier. (blown too many vtcars rally subaru engines from poor quality fuel deliveries at rally events, that are trucked in)
__________________
interested in autocrossing/rallycrossing or doing a track day in the mid-atlantic, or if you're just interested in car prep for such events contact me.


06 xb canyon carving midget car
ad/vendor/sponsorship space available
captdownshift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2008, 02:04 AM   #12
blown_xa
Senior Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
 
blown_xa's Avatar
blown_xa 32/M

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: PTuning
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to blown_xa
Default

i think the thread question would be best asked "what is the hp limit on a stock block?" assuming a tune detonation free, 130whp is the limit for a realiable set-up on a dyno-dynamics dyno... believe me, i know this. Anything above that mark, might be ok for a few quarter mile passes here and there, but a few laps around a road coarse holding at high rpms the motor won't hold as I found out last motor I blew.

These motors are VERY fragile, the motor will blow before the spark plug reads hint of detonation.
__________________
1nzfe record holder (1/4 mile) 11.9 @ 121

Most reliable built Scion on SL
blown_xa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2008, 03:12 AM   #13
uber-xA-RS2
Senior Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
Team ScioNRG
 
uber-xA-RS2's Avatar
uber-xA-RS2 30/M
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Rochester, NH
iTrader: (0)
Default

The most important part of ANY forced induction set-up is your tune.

My turbo xA has been tuned on the stock 1NZFE with 9psi and I have been running that for the better part of two months and not one issue has come from it. The longevity of your turbo or supercharged engine is determined by how you drive it and the quality of your tune.
__________________
Went from New-School to Old-School AE86 Style.
uber-xA-RS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2008, 12:32 PM   #14
captdownshift
Senior Member
5 Year Member
Strictly Scionized
SL Member
captdownshift 34/M
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: md
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to captdownshift Send a message via Yahoo to captdownshift
Default

sidenote, 157 WHP and 165WTQ in an xa with suspension must be a HOOT!!! you're looking at 170-5 ish at the flywheel so you munstered up a 70-75% increase in power i'd love more info on EM, who did the tune and any other mods you did to the greddy kit
__________________
interested in autocrossing/rallycrossing or doing a track day in the mid-atlantic, or if you're just interested in car prep for such events contact me.


06 xb canyon carving midget car
ad/vendor/sponsorship space available
captdownshift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2008, 08:59 PM   #15
Maguyver
Senior Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
Scion Evolution
 
Maguyver's Avatar
Maguyver 37/M
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Miami
iTrader: (0)
Default

Did u upgrade the fuel like a Perrine fuel rail and tC injectors stuff like that. Iíve been running a used greedy kit on my car for like 2-3 months and still havenít hooked up the boost gage or dyno'd it, to tell you the truth I get a little scared when I step on it
Maguyver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2008, 09:34 PM   #16
captdownshift
Senior Member
5 Year Member
Strictly Scionized
SL Member
captdownshift 34/M
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: md
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to captdownshift Send a message via Yahoo to captdownshift
Default

i'm sure tc injectors are involved, i'd ef hope so, as well as a wideband o2
__________________
interested in autocrossing/rallycrossing or doing a track day in the mid-atlantic, or if you're just interested in car prep for such events contact me.


06 xb canyon carving midget car
ad/vendor/sponsorship space available
captdownshift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2008, 03:23 AM   #17
uber-xA-RS2
Senior Member
5 Year Member
SL Member
Team ScioNRG
 
uber-xA-RS2's Avatar
uber-xA-RS2 30/M
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Rochester, NH
iTrader: (0)
Default

Since I have peaked some interest, here are the nitty gritty details on the setup I'm running.

Turbo:
GReddy Scion xB Turbo Kit (Mitsubishi TF-035 14GK turbo)
GReddy Front Mount Intercooler
Custom charge piping, I did not use the stock GReddy routing.
Turbo Downpipe flange remounted to match up to the stock exhaust flange.
Fully custom built 2.25 inch exhaust, with a highflow cat, resonator and coupled to the TRD exhaust.
GReddy Type RS BOV set up as atmospheric dump


Mechanical Bits:
Perrin Fuel Rail
Scion tC fuel injectors
GReddy Oil Filter Adaptor block
Ingalls ETD

Electronics:
GReddy eManage Ultimate
GReddy Profec B Spec II Electronic Boost Controller
Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband AFC (mounted in the downpipe)
Defi Blue Racer Boost, Oil PSI, EGT gauges
GReddy Automatic Turbo Timer

The car has been fully tuned on a Dynapack 2000 Chassis dyno. Tuning the eManage took about four hours and the car has been tuned for half and full throttle to maintain economy when not in boost. The maps were fully written by the tuner who also happens to be a software engineer.

My tuner is Holyroller Dyno/Ballistic Motorsports of Bow, NH

The injectors are the stock Scion tC 370cc injectors running at 89% duty cycle.

Ambient air temps on the final pull was 83 degrees, resulting in 157Whp and 165Wtq

I have had the opportunity to drive the car in cooler weather and I suspect at least another 10whp with the lower air charge temps.

Car gets to 60MPH shifting into third and from there on it's a scary ride


There are a few quirks as to be expected.

The tune on this car is insanely aggressive. Fully mapped for fuel consumption up to 6500 RPM and full ignition adjustments throughout the entire RPM range. The negative result is that the car runs a little rough on first start up and warmup requiring some monitoring. Once at operating temps the car runs like a stock xA.

The engine runs very high oil pressure when in open loop 80-100 PSI at the filter, This has had a negative effect on the turbo as I do burn a miniscule amount of oil under full power.

The stock cooling system doesn't like being turbochaged at all. Upgrades are planned.

Airflow into the engine bay is minimal, to reduce stress on the other components addition airflow is needed. Do what ever it takes to get extra cool air in there.


So in the end is it worh 4500-6000 to turbocharge the xA or xB1

HELL YES!!
__________________
Went from New-School to Old-School AE86 Style.
uber-xA-RS2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2008, 12:32 PM   #18
captdownshift
Senior Member
5 Year Member
Strictly Scionized
SL Member
captdownshift 34/M
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: md
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to captdownshift Send a message via Yahoo to captdownshift
Default

for airflow into the engine bay have you looked into a brake ducting setup, but re route the plumbing to dump the air near the airbox, IC or even exhaust manifold/turbo?

myles at racecompengineering could prob help you set that up (although i'm sure your tuner could as well as they they seem on the ball)

that is quite the aggressive setup, but you have it monitored and tuned correctly, no guesswork. and the right system upgrades were made to get where you are relatively safe, and you know what bits to get next.

i wonder if running an oil filter bypass would help with the oil pressure, that together with a deeper pan would raise oil capacity which would aid with cooling as well (we have very very small oil pans). which should help keep everything happy, including the turbo. for comparison, there is a reason porsche 993/996/977s and audi rs4's take 9-10 qts of oil, creating another 1.5-2 quarts of oil capacity should help with 2 of the limiting factors

not that where you are now isn't quite impressive that has to be an absolute blast.
__________________
interested in autocrossing/rallycrossing or doing a track day in the mid-atlantic, or if you're just interested in car prep for such events contact me.


06 xb canyon carving midget car
ad/vendor/sponsorship space available
captdownshift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2008, 03:42 PM   #19
vettereddie
Moderator
Premium Member
5 Year Member
5 Year Member
Scikotics
SL Member
Moderator
 
vettereddie's Avatar
vettereddie 33/M

 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Patuxent River, MD
iTrader: (0)
Default

Anyone know about oil pump upgrades? if you can up the capacity you may be able to drop the pressure a bit and not get blowby through the seals. I'm hoping I can get better cooling in the xB with it's huge grill openings. A vented hood would be nice as well.
__________________
Selling my turbo kit + add-ons

2004-2006 Scion xA / xB Greddy turbo
vettereddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2008, 04:18 PM   #20
captdownshift
Senior Member
5 Year Member
Strictly Scionized
SL Member
captdownshift 34/M
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: md
iTrader: (0)
Send a message via AIM to captdownshift Send a message via Yahoo to captdownshift
Default

it's tough to find a safety net when you're already at 4 limiting factors (fuel, spark, oil pressure and cooling)

fuel is a fairly easy fix, even bigger injectors and a walbro. spark can get tricky, you hope an MSD or AEM box and re-tuning will do it, but tuning does spark to get tougher then, it's much easier to tune fuel then spark imo.

the oil capacity and ducting will help with the cooling and oil pressure and bit but won't help too much more on the pressure side, without a bypass. for an oil pump upgrade that'd be entering into some experimentation...

and that's before you get into potential issues of connecting rod strength. things get very very expensive (nearing 10k when all said and done) beyond his current state, and that's dealing with known factors.

vettereddie, i know you have a built block, so for you the question is as mentioned, oil pressure and supply, i'd almost be tempting to do something crazy like gasket match the plumbing on the pump to see if flow or the actual mechcanic pump action is the limiting factor. that's something i'd only consider if i had a spare pump available.

i dont have a toyota parts catalog here at work or spec sheet or else i'd start researching to see if any larger capacity toyota engines have similar size/mounting specs on their oil pumps to see if raiding the corporate parts bin is an option. i'll try to get in touch with some friends at corporate to get some specs and maybe some loaner pieces to try on for fitment.
__________________
interested in autocrossing/rallycrossing or doing a track day in the mid-atlantic, or if you're just interested in car prep for such events contact me.


06 xb canyon carving midget car
ad/vendor/sponsorship space available
captdownshift is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2008, 04:18 PM
Scionlife.com
Scion TC



Paid Advertisement
 
 
 
Reply


Tags
1nzfe, boost, engine, greddy, motor, option, psi, safe, scion, stock, supercharged, supercharger, tc, upgrade, xa


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:12 AM.
Advertising - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Jobs
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Forums Backup with Admin Control Panel