Water/Meth Injection

[t_urbo_C_harged]

I have been trying to look up pre-mixed bottles of water meth and was looking to see what people were using. I noticed snow performance carries "boost juice", but I cannot justify paying $30 bucks for it. I found out that splash windshield washer fluid contains 36% or 38% (cant remember lol) of meth, but I am not sure what else it contains and if it is safe to use. Let me know what you use/recommend and any tips! Thanks in advance!

[dave2610]

from what ive heard windshield washer fluid is fine to run or you can just buy methanol and mix it your self it would probably be cheaper

[coryjames]

you local race shop can usually sell 5 gallon containers for 20-30 buck in the end you will have 10 gallons mixed

[brett561tc]

i run 100 % methanol through my aem kit. mixing it with water is a waste in my opinion. something that doesn't burn has no place in your combustion chamber.

[m6ar2cel6oTC]

by a 5 gallon can and call it a day! you can gallon bottls with tha if you mix it with half distilled water!

[t_urbo_C_harged]

Originally Posted by brett561tc

i run 100 % methanol through my aem kit. mixing it with water is a waste in my opinion. something that doesn't burn has no place in your combustion chamber.

water helps to clean your internals and cool combustion temperatures. When controlled, it is actually very good for your motor.

Sounds like mixing my own 50/50 is the best way to go. Anyone else?

[BlackKnight]

You are right about the water in the engine benefits the internals. Not sure what mixture.

[Ace83]

i dont know how water injection cleans your internals, imo you are just spraying atomized air, all what your engine is gonna see is prolly just vaporized water.. 100% methanol can cool down air mixture too, but im not so sure about using it 100% methanol.. not that i see anything bad just coz most aggressive mix i usually see is 50/50

[brett561tc]

the thing that most people don't realize is that you aren't trying to fight latent heat. your trying to fight pre-ignition. more power can be had with 100% meth.

[t_urbo_C_harged]

Originally Posted by Ace83

i dont know how water injection cleans your internals, imo you are just spraying atomized air, all what your engine is gonna see is prolly just vaporized water.. 100% methanol can cool down air mixture too, but im not so sure about using it 100% methanol.. not that i see anything bad just coz most aggressive mix i usually see is 50/50

Have you ever seen a motor that had a leaking head gasket? Just last week I took apart a motor at work and found where the headgasket was leaking at. It was real easy to spot as that cylinder/piston was the cleanest haha. True the water will be vaporized, but I still believe it will at least prevent carbon buildup.

Brett I do know about the latent heat, but I also read that running 100% meth was for strickly race applications. Pre-ignition can happen by many different things (glowing/redhot carbon, too early spark, etc.). Diesel fuel is very good with latent heat, and also has a long burn time, which is why it can be ran very lean. If someone eventually developes a production hydrogen car, it will run similar to a diesel as its properties are similar. This is all from what I have studied, if I am wrong correct me and I will have learned something . I hope I didn't get anything confused/mixed up haha.

[Ace83]

Carbon build up shouldnt be a problem, where there is burning there will always be carbon.. and there is constant friction in the cylinder wall when the piston moves so it shouldnt be dirty..

You are right about the causes of preignition, and thats why you run meth injection to reduce the chance of preignition or detonation by providing cooler air charge, a slight slower burn rate that will help prevent uncontrolled or early combustion.. will give you more room for spark advance or a bit leaner afr..

[Ptuning_tuner]

100% methanol would probably not be such a good idea on a street car. It is easily ignited and worst of all burns clear when ignited. It would be no different than having a gallon of gasoline sitting in your trunk or washer reservoir. Just about every WMI manufacturer will agree that 50/50 is the best mixture to use. The water helps to remove excessive heat from the combustion chamber when it vaporizes, thereby reducing the chances for detonation with low octane pump fuel.

Remember, for the most part, octane is a fuel's ability to resist detonation or spontaneously ignite when compressed. Gasoline up to 100 octane is basically gas that is refined to be composed entirely of octane, the most stable of all the gasoline hydrocarbon chains (as opposed to heptane, nonane or decane). The lead in race fuel (TEL) helps to "strengthen" or stabilize the standard hydrocarbon gasoline chain, thereby increasing it's effective octane rating to over what is obtainable with 100 octane unleaded gasoline. (Okay, I remembered something from college organic chemistry, lol).

WMI when used with say 93 pump gas also increases it's effective octane rating, but in a slightly different way. The vaporizing water helps to draw excessive heat from the combustion chamber, thereby stabilizing the combustion process of the pump gas, which also leads to an "effective" increase in octane rating (fuel mixture combustibility without spontaneous ignition).

The methanol, while it does have a very high octane rating, does not pull away nearly as much heat as water can. Running straight methanol as the sole fuel is another story though. The methanol does also help to provide additional high octane fuel to the combustion mixture and, of course, helps to prevent the water from freezing prematurely in colder climates.

We use Snow Performance 's Boost Juice (50/50 mix) on our TA tC, but mainly because it was readily available at the time. You can certainly mix your own using methanol (free of additives) and distilled water. For the average Joe though, regular blue washer fluid will work fine and is readily found everywhere. It usually has about 30-40% methanol and is generally rated to about 20 below zero. Just avoid the ones that contain glycol (usually rated to -40 degrees, and often yellow or some color other than blue).

The only thing with washer fluid is that it does contain a little bit of detergent, so you will want to inspect and/or clean the filter/jets every few months. One of our employee, Blown_xA, has been using regular blue washer fluid on his non-intercooled turbo TA street class xA for about 2 years now. Other than the occasional cleaning of the filter and/or jets, it has worked fine for him thus far. His car, btw, is a true year-round daily driver too.

Lastly, the water that vaporizes in the combustion chamber does sort of "steam clean" the combustion chamber and valves, thereby, preventing a lot of the carbon buildup you would normally find when tearing down an engine. However, I'm not too sure if I'd necessarily ever use that as a selling point though.

- Toan

[brett561tc]

^^the point im trying to get across is that the most power will be had with with 100% methanol injection, and appropriate tunning, than any mixture of water and methanol will.

[ippskidder]

Originally Posted by t_urbo_C_harged

water helps to clean your internals and cool combustion temperatures. When controlled, it is actually very good for your motor.

Sounds like mixing my own 50/50 is the best way to go. Anyone else?

x10000000

[ippskidder]

Originally Posted by Ace83

i dont know how water injection cleans your internals, imo you are just spraying atomized air, all what your engine is gonna see is prolly just vaporized water.. 100% methanol can cool down air mixture too, but im not so sure about using it 100% methanol.. not that i see anything bad just coz most aggressive mix i usually see is 50/50

Water will have a steam cleaning effect.

[Ptuning_tuner]

Taken from the FAQ of Aquamist UK, one of the pioneers of WMI.

"10. What is the maximum alcohol/ water ratio I should use?
No more than 50%, otherwise you will increase the cylinder temperature rather than reducing it. Beyond that ratio, onset of detonation is more likely. Methanol freezes at -96 deg. C, 50% mixture will stop the mixture from freezing at around -40 deg.C."

Remember, heat is the enemy here when it comes to preventing detonation with low octane gas - water just happens to be best for removing the excess heat. While the 100% injected methanol will remain stable because of it's high octane number, the gasoline portion will not be so happy without the presence of the water cooling the compressed fuel mixture.

[ippskidder]

Originally Posted by brett561tc

^^the point im trying to get across is that the most power will be had with with 100% methanol injection, and appropriate tunning, than any mixture of water and methanol will.

That may be true.

But i'm sure most will prefer the 50/50 with the added benefit of a cleaner engine ^^

I don't mind losing some horsepower at the expense of an engine that will see more longevity.

[Ace83]

good infos!

[brett561tc]

Originally Posted by Ptuning_tuner

Taken from the FAQ of Aquamist UK, one of the pioneers of WMI.

"10. What is the maximum alcohol/ water ratio I should use?
No more than 50%, otherwise you will increase the cylinder temperature rather than reducing it. Beyond that ratio, onset of detonation is more likely. Methanol freezes at -96 deg. C, 50% mixture will stop the mixture from freezing at around -40 deg.C."

Remember, heat is the enemy here when it comes to preventing detonation with low octane gas - water just happens to be best for removing the excess heat. While the 100% injected methanol will remain stable because of it's high octane number, the gasoline portion will not be so happy without the presence of the water cooling the compressed fuel mixture.

here is some of a conversation between a evolutionm forums member and richar l from aquamist.


With more methanol, you'll be able to run a bit more timing, and make more power. With 100% methanol and appropriate tuning, you will make more power still.


WRC rules prohibit the injection of methanol or any other supplemental fuel. Some teams (not all) use water injection to cool the ACT, which is beneficial (especially in hotter climates). The article in question features comments such as . . .

"Water injection has been introduced since we looked at the engine in 1995, and has assisted in the exploitation of a higher compression ratio, although Lapworth says that its use is not critical in this respect" (due to use of a larger IC).

"In practice (says Lapworth), the effect is marginal, and is only effective at lower engine speeds."

Mr. Lapworth notes that a ban on water injection and water IC spray will result in a "slight decrease in engine power".


The point here is not to diminish the benefit of water injection at lowering ACT, but to squarely disagree with Richard L's assertion that water injection provides a greater power benefit than 100% methanol.

With 100% methanol injection, I've witnessed common increases in power along the lines of 15% with little effort. For a 300whp car, that amounts to an additional 45whp from methanol injection alone. If water injection provided that degree of power potential increase, ALL the WRC teams would be using it. The fact is it doesn't, and they don't. Again, not because it isn't effective at suppressing detonation and cooling the ACT, but because it does not give an advantage so great that it makes it a 'must have'.

I do agree with Richard L on the point that methanol injection requires retuning and should be used with a fail-safe system. Likewise, 100% methanol can be hard on pump parts (e.g. santoprene).

[ippskidder]

This sh!!!!ts getting hella technical, LMAO!