Velheru

I do believe that the manual for my 06 Xb said it could run on E85...I would have to double check to be certain but Im pretty sure

bsp-tC

Around here, E85 is around 40 cents cheaper per gallon, and I am not so sure that the carcinogenic emissions issues mentioned here are true. I have heard that the benefits of using E85 far outweigh the drawbacks with conventional gasoline, and at a 40 cent per gallon decrease in cost at the pump in this area, I am all for it. If we can find out whether it is truly usable in our tC's, I will take the steps to convert the tC to use it. I drive 50+ miles per day just to work and back, so anything that helps the environment AND my pocketbook is good! Besides, the company my husband and both parents-in-law work for has the E85 at their gas stations, so I can fuel up there just as easily as I can Unleaded gas.

io333

I think it's mostly just a matter of finding out if there is any aluminum in the fuel system that the ethanol would come into contact with. If not, then just put it in and see how the ECU responds to it. The ECU might adjust, might not. If it didn't, then we'd need an ECU flash. Toyota really needs to release the specs to that ECU so we can do stuff with this car.

jbae1221

i don't think it can be used in the tc.. because i believe that a car that runs e85 needs reenforced fuel lines because the e85 is at a higher temp rate.. or something like that.. so most likely you put it in your car your fuel line will break and "as Emril" says "BAM" you have a fire.. i wouldn't chance it...

tobu

Like I said before, running cars on E85 is a very bad idea, both for the individual and the environment.

Economics
1) As posted earlier, E85 is less energetically dense. Even with a 40-60 cent a gallon price break, which is only 20-30% off gas at 2.00 a gallon, it probably won't offset the drop in gas mileage, which can be up to 40%.

2) As citizens, we also pay higher taxes if E85 becomes more popular. E85 production is heavily subsidized by the corn industry (such as ADM) and the only reason it is so cheap is because the agricultural lobby is so powerful. We always make a show of supporting free trade and captitalism but we rarely walk the walk when it comes to certain special interests.

Environmental
1) As of now, it takes a lot of energy (petroleum) to produce 1 gallon of alcohol. More than we get from sparing 1 gallon of gasoline.

2) E85 emissions aren't really cleaner. Even though in California we have some of the "strictest" air standards, there are many types of unregulated emissions. E85 burns cleaner in some, but it's also dirty in others like aldehydes.

Even though you can probably run some mixture of E85 in your scion, unless it's designated a flex fuel vehicle it's really not recommended. Alcohol is a weak acid and can corrode engine components and fuel lines unless they have been specifically designed for ethanol / methanol -- especially if the E85 is contaminated with water. In addition your catalytic converter might not run properly and I'm not convinced that the ecu will get the engine to use the E85 in an optimal fashion.

There have been studies done on the use of alcohol as a fuel and in most situations M85 (which also had it's problems) pretty much beat E85 as a fuel source, but M85 never had the impetus behind it as does E85.

tobu

Like I said before, running cars on E85 is a very bad idea, both for the individual and the environment.

Economics
1) As posted earlier, E85 is less energetically dense. Even with a 40-60 cent a gallon price break, which is only 20-30% off gas at 2.00 a gallon, it probably won't offset the drop in gas mileage, which can be up to 40%.

2) As citizens, we also pay higher taxes if E85 becomes more popular. E85 production is heavily subsidized by the corn industry (such as ADM) and the only reason it is so cheap is because the agricultural lobby is so powerful. We always make a show of supporting free trade and captitalism but we rarely walk the walk when it comes to certain special interests.

Environmental
1) As of now, it takes a lot of energy (petroleum) to produce 1 gallon of alcohol. More than we get from sparing 1 gallon of gasoline.

2) E85 emissions aren't really cleaner. Even though in California we have some of the "strictest" air standards, there are many types of unregulated emissions. E85 burns cleaner in some, but it's also dirty in others like aldehydes.

Even though you can probably run some mixture of E85 in your scion, unless it's designated a flex fuel vehicle it's really not recommended. Alcohol is a weak acid and can corrode engine components and fuel lines unless they have been specifically designed for ethanol / methanol -- especially if the E85 is contaminated with water. In addition your catalytic converter might not run properly and I'm not convinced that the ecu will get the engine to use the E85 in an optimal fashion.

There have been studies done on the use of alcohol as a fuel and in most situations M85 (which also had it's problems) pretty much beat E85 as a fuel source, but M85 never had the impetus behind it as does E85.

bsp-tC

Hi Tobu. Thanks for your input, but this is what the E85 people say about it:

"E85 is the term for motor fuel blends of 85 percent ethanol and just 15 percent gasoline. E85 is an alternative fuel as defined by the U.S. Department of Energy. Besides its superior performance characteristics, ethanol burns cleaner than gasoline; it is a completely renewable, domestic, environmentally friendly fuel that enhances the nation's economy and energy independence.

Today, the U. S. imports more than half of its oil, and overall consumption continues to increase. By supporting ethanol production and use, U.S. drivers can help reverse that trend. 85% ethanol can reduce pollution. Government tests have shown that E85 vehicles reduce harmful hydrocarbon and benzene emissions when compared to vehicles running on gasoline. E85 can also reduce carbon dioxide (CO2), a harmful greenhouse gas and a major contributor to global warming.

Although CO2 is released during ethanol production and combustion, it is recaptured as a nutrient to the crops that are used in its production. Unlike fossil fuel combustion, which unlocks carbon that has been stored for millions of years, use of ethanol results in low increases to the carbon cycle.

Ethanol also degrades quickly in water and, therefore, poses much less risk to the environment than an oil or gasoline spill.

E85 has the highest oxygen content of any transportation fuel available today, making it burn cleaner than gasoline. Fewer exhaust emissions result in reduced production of smog and a decline in respiratory illness associated with poor air quality. E85 also reduces greenhouse gas emissions such as carbon dioxide, the main contributor to global warming, as much as 39 to 46 percent compared to gasoline.

Since E85's main ingredient is ethanol, which is non-toxic, water soluble and biodegradable, E85 is simply a better fuel for the world around us.

Not only does using E85 help reduce American dependence on foreign oil, but because Ethanol is produced from crops grown in the U.S., it can also help stabilize commodity prices. And because E85 is a viable, home-grown alternative to gasoline, E85 provides competition, which is good for consumers.

In the near future, a wide range of waste products will be used to produce ethanol, further developing our national energy independence.Ethanol production is estimated to increase net farm income more than $4.5 billion. It boosts employment by 200,000 jobs and improves the balance of trade by over $2 billion.

Ultimately we need to be more energy independent."

So, based on that exerpt from them, it sounds like we should all be doing a little more research on the E85 fuel and its benefits before rushing to jump on the "oh, but it still has bad emissions" bandwagon. Afterall, any fuel we BURN is going to produce emissions, it's just whether those emissions are as bad as gasoline ones, or as bad as E85 ones...
Thank God we all can make up our own minds, since this country is still based on the freedom to make our own decisions and say what we feel about them.
I for one, will look into what options there are for converting my Scion to the use of E85. I am not assuming that I can just run down to the pump and put it in my car without some needed changes first to allow the SAFE use of it in my car.
I also expect that even if it ends up being a little more expensive in the long run (since you say it actually takes more to make it, and it gives us slightly worse mileage too) it is for the better of the country, and the environment in the long run also.
It is sort-of like using recycled materials. Many of them are more expensive (since it takes more to make them and process them), but are better for everyone in the end.

bsp-tC

By the way, if I do more research and find that it is NOT going to work at all in our vehicles, I will post here then.
..just researching for now...but it sounds like it would be great!

tobu

Like you said, that's what the E85 people say. I'm just reiterating the arguments of researchers who are not necessarily anti E85 but are involved in the economic and environmental impacts of different types of alternative fuels, each of which may have some plusses and minuses. And of course who knows who is right -- you just have to make the best judgement from the information out there, and I'm definitely not an alternative fuels expert. Good luck in your project though!

Rayman

Do you have a link to the info regarding what's bad about E-85? I wonder if they're being funded by 'big oil'.

tobu

Doubtful that all the research is funded by big oil. Much of the research into M85 and E85 as a fuel was done under various state pilot programs to reduce emissions in California -- pretty much the same people who are embroiled in a fight to force auto manufacturers to drastically increase fuel economy and lower emissions. The general consensus amongst transportation researchers is that the only reason American car manufacturers are making FFV's is that they are just taking advantage of the CAFE fuel credit of FFV's to help offset the abysmal fuel economy of the American car line up. Lots of research was done in the early 90's, really pre-internet times, but you can probably google E85 or E85 controversy (or something like that) and get some hits.

People who are into alternative fuels are really excited about biodiesel, even though there are questions about it similar to E85 -- but E85 has been pretty much discounted as a sham by the environmental community. I think everyone would love it if solar cars would be practical, but it seems like most scientists believe the most promising technology is probably the hydrogen fuel cell.

Rayman

Thanks, I'll do some searches.

p2filz

no offense but thats halerious... thankgod ur dad is not in the manure business

BriansNBMTC

Just my two cents but I dont think it will make that much of a difference if they cut down how much C02 our cars produce when thes like 3 billion people in the world breathing out C02 every two seconds.

Rivulent

Haha.

lakeshorescion

You cannot use E85 in a Scion or any Toyota. The alcohol is corrosive and will eat away at the fuel tank and lines. Plus, there is no sensor, like a Flex Fuel Vehicle has, to recalibrate the ECU for the different air/fuel ratios required.

emiller

Mostly American cars are the ones that can use E85. Although they rarely mention it.

Rivulent

Actually, last night I saw GM boasting about it's flex systems allowing the use of ethenol. It seems to be there marketing tactic while they re-invent the hybrid vehicle.

emiller

They do now but they have been making cars this way for awhile and you didnt hear much about it. If I was them Id brag my ___ off about it. Even if its not as good as gas (less power and lower mileage?) its viewed as cleaner. For a companies that live off large vehicles that are thought of as dirty polluters like SUVs it would help since most people would never look into it.

xtigger

i will allways use93 and nothing else in my car.