P&L 403whp/307wtq...Stock motor + Auto - Page 2 - Scionlife.com


Scion FR-S Forced Induction Turbo and supercharger applications...

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Old 08-31-2012, 04:51 AM   #21
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I would think to tune a full ems would take a lot longer to tune than a piggyback. Most shops tune by the hour.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:19 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke View Post
Really? Installing a fuel pump does not constitute $1000 dollars. Even having a shop install the pump for you will not see the price you quoted. There is a DIY for installing a fuel pump in a tC, why do you come off as if there won't be one for this car?

Secondly your $800 squeeze in for the management is already included in the price of the kit. Again, Not $1200 for a tune.

I will have to track down the trans code, but pretty sure it's stout. Obviously if it was that weak, it wouldn't have even lasted 400whp on a dyno pull or be able to do this either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmkvIGvZRVI


I very much understand that you are a pessimistic type person, at least when you post. To you, it's either already failed, or is going to fail.
Have you ever seen the 86 fuel pump/FPR/float assembly? Have you bothered to read the Deatschwerks 86 fuel system overview thread yet? Replacing the tiny oem fuel pump with a physically larger, high volume pump is not nearly as easy or simple as you seem to think. Also, just replacing the pump doesn't guarantee adequate e85 fuel delivery as you will see as the $1000 return fuel system kits start hitting the market, just like they did with the TC. Did you know that you're talking about flowing more than twice the stock fuel volume? How can you be so sure that it's as simple as swapping fuel pumps?

Check the P&L turbo kit prices again. There is no mention of any engine management included in the $5500 price. ECUtek engine management is a $800 option and only includes a "base map for startup".


For a smart guy you sure seem very gullible when it comes to all things "86". Just because the IS250 trans has held up to 400whp for a few hundred miles in no way guarantees that it will hold up for 100k miles or even 10k. As you search for trans codes, be wary of all the early speculation that the 86 would get the A760E from the IS350. In the end, Toybaru made the smart choice and used the much lighter, yet still adequate for 150btq A960E from the IS250.

I'm not surprised that you view me as pessimistic since I see you as blindly optimistic when it comes to the "86". It's a shame too since we both like the car. I'm just trying to be realistic about it.

Last edited by ScionFred; 08-31-2012 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 08-31-2012, 02:05 PM   #23
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Have you ever seen the 86 fuel pump/FPR/float assembly? Have you bothered to read the Deatschwerks 86 fuel system overview thread yet? Replacing the tiny oem fuel pump with a physically larger, high volume pump is not nearly as easy or simple as you seem to think.
And, neither is doing a motor removal and install, but I've done that before too. You make it sound like it's impossible for a guy to learn to do... Like you have to have an engineering degree to work on cars. Are you afraid of getting dirty? Again, take it to a shop then if you feel that you aren't that mechanically inclined, but you still not paying $1k for a fuel pump install. Cars are coming E85 compatible from the factory these days in case you haven't noticed.


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Originally Posted by ScionFred View Post
Also, just replacing the pump doesn't guarantee adequate e85 fuel delivery as you will see as the $1000 return fuel system kits start hitting the market, just like they did with the TC. Did you know that you're talking about flowing more than twice the stock fuel volume? How can you be so sure that it's as simple as swapping fuel pumps?
Because that's all they did to get these Numbers. Pay attention.





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Originally Posted by ScionFred View Post
Check the P&L turbo kit prices again. There is no mention of any engine management included in the $5500 price. ECUtek engine management is a $800 option and only includes a "base map for startup".
They include engine management as an option because you don't have to buy ECUtek as a management. The more kits comes out, the better for us. It drives the cost down. Prices are up because competition is low, simple economics. Soon as more kits (options) appear, prices will fall to drive customers to their setups.

What kits do you know of cost $5k+ and don't come with engine management these days? Use a little common sense and go ask them if it comes with management for that price. If it don't, guess what....buy the companies kit that does come with it. You make things difficult just for the sake of making things difficult.



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Originally Posted by ScionFred View Post
For a smart guy you sure seem very gullible when it comes to all things "86". Just because the IS250 trans has held up to 400whp for a few hundred miles in no way guarantees that it will hold up for 100k miles or even 10k. As you search for trans codes, be wary of all the early speculation that the 86 would get the A760E from the IS350. In the end, Toybaru made the smart choice and used the much lighter, yet still adequate for 150btq A960E from the IS250.

So facts equate to being "gullible"? What are you a Republican...lol.


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I'm not surprised that you view me as pessimistic since I see you as blindly optimistic when it comes to the "86". It's a shame too since we both like the car. I'm just trying to be realistic about it.
Optimistic yes, not blindly though and definitely not Eyes-Wide Shut pessimistic as you seem to be. By that I mean, someone feeds you information, and you seek out how it can fail, despite having data to back up why it shouldn't fail (I.E. trans holding up to abuse in the car it derives from). If it has a history of not holding any power, then I would doubt that it would do any different on this platform. But if that's not the case, and I have no evidence to suggest otherwise, I'm going to look at it with the current existing data in that it should work out just fine.

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Old 08-31-2012, 02:10 PM   #24
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At the end of the day, they are making 400+whp on a stock motor and stock Auto trans, on E85 and all they changed fuel wise was add a bigger fuel pump and injectors. End of the story, no But this, And that's...

You don't know what the longevity of the trans or the motor is going to be. I would rather see it last a while, then to snub nose and think it's going to fail tomorrow.
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:19 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke View Post
And, neither is doing a motor removal and install, but I've done that before too. You make it sound like it's impossible for a guy to learn to do... Like you have to have an engineering degree to work on cars. Are you afraid of getting dirty? Again, take it to a shop then if you feel that you aren't that mechanically inclined, but you still not paying $1k for a fuel pump install. Cars are coming E85 compatible from the factory these days in case you haven't noticed.




Because that's all they did to get these Numbers. Pay attention
I think this was his point he was trying to make. That it will cost a lot more than just buying a Turbo kit at 5k. It takes a lot more to reach said HP numbers. But I agree that it probably wont take anywhere near the 15k posted. But only time will tell with this car. Tons of potential.
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Old 08-31-2012, 07:57 PM   #26
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how reliable will it be as a DD ?
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:01 PM   #27
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^We'll all be finding that out over time, check back monthly updates I guess.
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Old 09-01-2012, 08:54 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmnsmoke View Post
And, neither is doing a motor removal and install, but I've done that before too. You make it sound like it's impossible for a guy to learn to do... Like you have to have an engineering degree to work on cars. Are you afraid of getting dirty? Again, take it to a shop then if you feel that you aren't that mechanically inclined, but you still not paying $1k for a fuel pump install. Cars are coming E85 compatible from the factory these days in case you haven't noticed.

Because that's all they did to get these Numbers. Pay attention.

They include engine management as an option because you don't have to buy ECUtek as a management. The more kits comes out, the better for us. It drives the cost down. Prices are up because competition is low, simple economics. Soon as more kits (options) appear, prices will fall to drive customers to their setups.

What kits do you know of cost $5k+ and don't come with engine management these days? Use a little common sense and go ask them if it comes with management for that price. If it don't, guess what....buy the companies kit that does come with it. You make things difficult just for the sake of making things difficult.

So facts equate to being "gullible"? What are you a Republican...lol.

Optimistic yes, not blindly though and definitely not Eyes-Wide Shut pessimistic as you seem to be. By that I mean, someone feeds you information, and you seek out how it can fail, despite having data to back up why it shouldn't fail (I.E. trans holding up to abuse in the car it derives from). If it has a history of not holding any power, then I would doubt that it would do any different on this platform. But if that's not the case, and I have no evidence to suggest otherwise, I'm going to look at it with the current existing data in that it should work out just fine.
ROFLMAO! Okay RS, I give up... you win.

All anyone has to do is buy a $25,000 FRS/BRZ, a $5000 turbo kit, slap in a $200 fuel pump, get a 400+ whp e85 tune from P-Tuning for $500 and then run down Z06 Corvettes at the track all day with oem Toybaru reliability. I get it now, you can STFU.

I sincerely hope that you're the first mouth-foaming "86" fanboy to try this, I really, really do.
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Old 09-01-2012, 09:14 AM   #29
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how reliable will it be as a DD ?
As reliable as a bone-stock Camry! Today's "tuner" cars are always engineered to be at least 2x stronger than necessary so that the tuner community, upon which every auto manufacturer's very existance depends, can make $25k cars outperform $50k cars with just a $5000 turbo kit. It's simple economics.
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Old 09-01-2012, 11:27 AM   #30
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There really is a difference betwenn dyno queens and track cars when making big power. You can always find its breaking point when trying to reach its power limits on the dyno. But when consistently putting that kind if stress on the motor for a long period of time will not hold up. Give this car another year or 2 and report back to this thread.
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:55 AM   #31
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ROFLMAO! Okay RS, I give up... you win.

All anyone has to do is buy a $25,000 FRS/BRZ, a $5000 turbo kit, slap in a $200 fuel pump, get a 400+ whp e85 tune from P-Tuning for $500 and then run down Z06 Corvettes at the track all day with oem Toybaru reliability. I get it now, you can STFU.

I sincerely hope that you're the first mouth-foaming "86" fanboy to try this, I really, really do.
Resulting to insulting people is a sign that you have nothing of intelligence to say. Weak Sauce.
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Old 09-03-2012, 07:58 AM   #32
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Resulting to insulting people is a sign that you have nothing of intelligence to say. Weak Sauce.

"Are you afraid of getting dirty?"

"...take it to a shop then if you feel that you aren't that mechanically inclined"

"Pay attention"

"Use a little common sense"

"You make things difficult just for the sake of making things difficult"

"What are you a Republican...lol"

"not Eyes-Wide Shut pessimistic as you seem to be. By that I mean, someone feeds you information, and you seek out how it can fail"


Funny... I thought insult was your primary debate tactic.

Think whatever you want dude, I don't like you and don't care if you lose a lot of money being stoopit. I'm only concerned about the poor dumb kid who reads your drooling fanboi nonsense and actually believes that he can make his auto FRS into a reliable 440whp Corvette killing DD in a weekend for under $6000. It's quite simply not that simple. never is, never has been and never will be.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:35 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScionFred View Post
"Are you afraid of getting dirty?"

"...take it to a shop then if you feel that you aren't that mechanically inclined"

"Pay attention"

"Use a little common sense"

"You make things difficult just for the sake of making things difficult"

"What are you a Republican...lol"

"not Eyes-Wide Shut pessimistic as you seem to be. By that I mean, someone feeds you information, and you seek out how it can fail"


Funny... I thought insult was your primary debate tactic.

Think whatever you want dude, I don't like you and don't care if you lose a lot of money being stoopit. I'm only concerned about the poor dumb kid who reads your drooling fanboi nonsense and actually believes that he can make his auto FRS into a reliable 440whp Corvette killing DD in a weekend for under $6000. It's quite simply not that simple. never is, never has been and never will be.

Calling you an idiot would be an insult. That's what's dumb with your post. Where on ANY post did I say..."hey, you can go daily drive this at 400whp all day and race and do whatever you want and it will be reliable". NO WHERE! Know why I didn't say that......BECAUSE IT'S NOT PROVEN YET! I don't post like you (making conclusive statements like you designed the car and know what it will and won't handle).

I posted what they have done, what they used to get there and what the results were.

You drive a turbo van why am I even wasting finger strokes. I'm done with you.
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Old 09-04-2012, 07:38 AM   #34
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Where on ANY post did I say..."hey, you can go daily drive this at 400whp all day and race and do whatever you want and it will be reliable". NO WHERE! Know why I didn't say that......BECAUSE IT'S NOT PROVEN YET!
If that's what you really think, why argue with me so vehemently and insult me repeatedly when all I was saying is that it's not a simple matter to create a reliable 400whp FRS/BRZ?

Obviously you and I will never agree on anything when it comes to the FRS/BRZ. I think it's a nice alternative to the already superb MX5 but it seems to have acheived diety status to you. I'm happy for you and the rest of the 86 cult but no one car can ever be all things to all people. I may still buy one but honestly, I'd like a useable rear seat and stronger engine.
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Old 09-04-2012, 08:40 AM   #35
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https://www.scionlife.com/forums/sho...9&postcount=29

Sarcasm using text just does not work that well, def with just adding a little smiley face at the end. Some may pick up on that which frequent forums or text, but likely more won't.


So you say you want a car with more "useable" rear seating and a stronger engine? Then what keeps you coming back checking on the 86/BRZ when most would just move on to a car more suiting to their wants? That rear seat room isn't going to increase, and the engine, well that remains to be seen in future model years. No one knows how much abuse the engine and transmission can handle on these cars, it's too soon, give about a year or two if you want to(or can) wait. Seems you have your mind made up this isn't on your list of potential cars based on those characteristics. No car will have all that you want out of the box, you know this(would like to think you do at least), some sacrifices will have to be made and if it's something that can be taken care of aftermarket then maybe it can be made up for and you might get that car you wanted after all. There are forced induction options to get the power up to what you'd like, done. Now the rear seating issue would be the only thing stopping the purchase. If it really means much to have that, then on to the next, maybe something in the used car market would be better? E46 M3 can be had for around $17,000, has power, rear seat room, seems something that fits what you're looking for(been searching a bit myself too lol).
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Old 09-06-2012, 04:15 AM   #36
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^^ If the reader is dumb enough to miss such obvious sarcasm, he's obviously dumb enough to believe that it's as simple to build a reliable 400+whp 86 as RS tries to make it appear. I saw this thread, saw members asking questions about reliability and decided to offer my opinion.

I agree that it might take a year or so to see if the 86 can handle FI and up to 300whp without breaking too much, too often. 400+whp on stock internals and trans isn't even a reasonable question. It's cool to see it done and it shows the potential of the current engine if built and mated to a capable clutch/trans. Maybe I am a pessimist but experience has taught me not to expect a auto trans not trusted by the OEM to handle more than 186 crank tq to handle 300+ wtq for very long. Likewise I suspect that Subaru had very good reasons for changing the pistons and rods when they boosted the FA20 to under 300bhp. If the stock FA20 can handle 400+whp, why spend money on stronger pistons and rods just for <300 bhp? If the A960E can handle 400+whp and 300+ wtq, why did Lexus choose to swap to a 40lb heavier trans to handle the 300bhp and 277btq of the IS350? Common sense may not be common anymore but it still serves well when you can find it.

As for me, I don't need a useable back seat very often but it's nice to have when you need one. I'm still car shopping buy haven't ruled out the FRS/BRZ yet. It may be slower than a V6 family sedan but it does offer a nice balance of price/performance/mpg with sweet handling. Most of the other cars I'm considering destroy the 86 in performance but cost a lot more and use a lot more gas. I don't know... still looking. Good luck to you as well. There are a lot of great cars to choose from today.
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Old 09-06-2012, 03:33 PM   #37
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Neat another fr-s thread getting out of hand gotta love it...
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:11 PM   #38
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Auto Trans STILL GOING!

New Dyno 428whp/331wtq 17PSI on e85

Name:  brz-17psi.jpg
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:13 PM   #39
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If the trans was going to pop anytime soon, it would have done it by now. Needless to say, the people who don't plan on pushing this much power, have nothing to worry about if all they want to do is 300whp or something lower than 400.
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Old 09-20-2012, 12:15 AM   #40
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From P&L

Quote:
New numbers with 17psi of boost.

428 WHP/ 331WTQ

Still stock motor and still stock "AUTO" trans. Over the weekend Raced a Z06 in 3rd/4th gear and he couldn't keep up. LOL
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